serious discussion - obut the theory of evolution

[mindless_moder]

ok no wi dont believe in this well not really an lets not talk bout religion just science .
id like to know at wht period fo time the single celled organisms decided to beocome plants? how those it explain the existance of plants?

 

[D33]

A guy at work who's christian believes in the adam and eve theory even though he said scientists did a report and said all dna came from four women in the world. However we don't really believe him cause he claims witches tried to burn him in the local busstation cause christians used to burn them.. we think somethings wrong upstairs..

He's certainly a weird one.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by mindless_moder
id like to know at wht period fo time the single celled organisms decided to beocome plants?

Evolution is a process and not a decision or pre-meditated ocurrance. It is pure trial and error, f*ck-up and move on that happens through the tiniest of imperfections and variations and their development over time.
The theory behind plants becoming plants is that these single-celled creatures ingested other, smaller single-celled creatures but did not digest them properly and that these smaller ones became chloroplasts (where photosynthesis essentially takes place). Then there is evidence of these single-celled organisms bunching together and working sybiotically to support one another. Before you know it you have organs and hence, organisms.

I hope this doesn't turn into a religious flame-war...

 

[Feath]

Re: Re: serious discussion - obut the theory of evolution

Originally posted by el Chi
Evolution is a process and not a decision or pre-meditated ocurrance. It is pure trial and error, f*ck-up and move on that happens through the tiniest of imperfections and variations and their development over time.
The theory behind plants becoming plants is that these single-celled creatures ingested other, smaller single-celled creatures but did not digest them properly and that these smaller ones became chloroplasts (where photosynthesis essentially takes place). Then there is evidence of these single-celled organisms bunching together and working sybiotically to support one another. Before you know it you have organs and hence, organisms.

I hope this doesn't turn into a religious flame-war...

Endosymbiosis?

And yeah, there is no conscious decision in Evolution. And obviously El Chi knows quite a bit about plants.

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by D33
A guy at work who's christian believes in the adam and eve theory even though he said scientists did a report and said all dna came from four women in the world. However we don't really believe him cause he claims witches tried to burn him in the local busstation cause christians used to burn them.. we think somethings wrong upstairs..

He's certainly a weird one.

You're friend is kinda right (About the Eve thing, not the Witch thing). It's actually one woman from the world, and it's not DNA, it's something else that's only passed down from woman to woman.

It's not that much of a big thing, the human race would've been small at one point and it's reasonable to assume that we could've all been related to this one woman many millions of years ago.

Anyway, it's been suggested that if you took another sample of women you'd end up with a different "Eve".

I'll read up on it later and post more, maybe.

 

[LoneDeranger]

Originally posted by Feath
You're friend is kinda right (About the Eve thing, not the Witch thing). It's actually one woman from the world, and it's not DNA, it's something else that's only passed down from woman to woman.

It's not that much of a big thing, the human race would've been small at one point and it's reasonable to assume that we could've all been related to this one woman many millions of years ago.

Anyway, it's been suggested that if you took another sample of women you'd end up with a different "Eve".

I'll read up on it later and post more, maybe.

I don't think that's possible. Humans did not become humans all of the sudden. It was gradual change so it would really be impossible to find the first woman.

 

[ductonius]

Originally posted by Feath
You're friend is kinda right (About the Eve thing, not the Witch thing). It's actually one woman from the world, and it's not DNA, it's something else that's only passed down from woman to woman.

Its called mitocondrial (sp?) DNA. Mitorchondria are a type of organel which is responsible for helping our cells process food and oxygen into energy they can use.

For the longest time it was thought that a person only got his/her mothers Mitochondrial DNA becuae the M-DNA on the sperm is in the tail, which falls off and never enters the egg.

Because M-DNA mutates at a predictable rate, if you assume that only the mother contributes M-DNA you can trace where everyones M-DNA comes from. Seveal teams have done this and have come up with estimates of 4-7 origonal females.

However, theres a twist: It has been recently discoverd that sometimes, just sometimes the M-DNA from the sperm DOES make it into the egg. This screws everything up because using the extra M-DNA material, any mutations can be ironed out (which is someting DNA tries to do anyway).

 

[ductonius]

Originally posted by LoneDeranger
I don't think that's possible. Humans did not become humans all of the sudden. It was gradual change so it would really be impossible to find the first woman.

Thats only according to one theory of evolution, and there are literally dozens.

In tradtiional punctuated evolution, the seperaton of one population of individuals from a main group can lead to massive change in that population within a hundered geneations or so. Which is blindlingly quick for evolution.

Another theory is based on the fact that some DNA does not get rid of its mutations, it just deactivates them. The theory goes that when conditions are right, those stored mutations will be expressed and a new species will arise to fill a niech or a current species will evolve suddenly.

 

[dawdler]

Pff... Evolution doesnt exist. Its precoded in our DNA by a race from another galaxy that we shall claim this galaxy for them in an epic conquest... That's why we have become what we are (and why we are so warmongering, its just practice). The others where failed experiments, rouge DNA, hybrids that mutated in the million year space travel it took it to reach earth. So over the years the predetermined sequences became more and more wrong (and ie the gruesome and horrible battle beast Yxywhwt became a normal housecat). Dinosaurs where sent by another race (lizardlike) to stop the project, but they failed after a second meteorite where sent by the first aliens (humanoids).

That's my take on evolution

 

[Fat Tony!]

Im sure plants came first actually cos they converted the carbon dioxide in the air to oxygen which meant that animals could survive but woteva it doesnt matter. Evolution is to do with survival of the fittest those animal who survive until the breeding season because they are the right height and stuff and they breed and pass on their genes and also as people have said it is to do with mutations in genes also plays a small part.

 

[LoneDeranger]

Originally posted by Fat Tony!
Im sure plants came first actually cos they converted the carbon dioxide in the air to oxygen which meant that animals could survive but woteva it doesnt matter. Evolution is to do with survival of the fittest those animal who survive until the breeding season because they are the right height and stuff and they breed and pass on their genes and also as people have said it is to do with mutations in genes also plays a small part.

which brings up the question: why and how did sex evolve?

 

[dawdler]

Originally posted by Fat Tony!
Im sure plants came first actually cos they converted the carbon dioxide in the air to oxygen which meant that animals could survive but woteva it doesnt matter. Evolution is to do with survival of the fittest those animal who survive until the breeding season because they are the right height and stuff and they breed and pass on their genes and also as people have said it is to do with mutations in genes also plays a small part.

Since when does animals and life got anything to do with oxygen? It would be like breathing poison for the very first animals...

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by ductonius
Thats only according to one theory of evolution, and there are literally dozens.

In tradtiional punctuated evolution, the seperaton of one population of individuals from a main group can lead to massive change in that population within a hundered geneations or so. Which is blindlingly quick for evolution.

Another theory is based on the fact that some DNA does not get rid of its mutations, it just deactivates them. The theory goes that when conditions are right, those stored mutations will be expressed and a new species will arise to fill a niech or a current species will evolve suddenly.

You leave out Darwinism. Small changes make small improvements, and so on.

I think that's more traditional than Punctuated Equilibrium.

 

[ductonius]

Originally posted by Fat Tony!
Im sure plants came first actually cos they converted the carbon dioxide in the air to oxygen which meant that animals could survive but woteva it doesnt matter. Evolution is to do with survival of the fittest those animal who survive until the breeding season because they are the right height and stuff and they breed and pass on their genes and also as people have said it is to do with mutations in genes also plays a small part.

Originally posted by Feath
You leave out Darwinism. Small changes make small improvements, and so on.

I think that's more traditional than Punctuated Equilibrium.

Both of these are selective breeding, not evolution.

Dogs are selectivly bred. They take on all sorts of weird shapes and sizes. If an archeolgists in 100,000 years found a chiuaua and a great dane skeliton, they would assume they were different species, just as we assume differnet looking aincent ape skelitons are different species.

However, the wolf, the great dane and the chiuaua are all the same species.

Note: technically, punctated evolution is also selective breeding, but evolution is not simply selective breeding. If anything, the name "punctuated evolution" is a misnomer and the actual mechanism of evolution in the theory is unkown.

 

[dawdler]

Originally posted by LoneDeranger
which brings up the question: why and how did sex evolve?

When the first bacteria thought: "**** this, I dont want to split up... Lets shoot DNA at each other instead, we dont even have to be close!"

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by ductonius
Both of these are selective breeding, not evolution.

Dogs are selectivly bred. They take on all sorts of weird shapes and sizes. If an archeolgists in 100,000 years found a chiuaua and a great dane skeliton, they would assume they were different species, just as we assume differnet looking aincent ape skelitons are different species.

However, the wolf, the great dane and the chiuaua are all the same species.

Note: technically, punctated evolution is also selective breeding.

Darwinism is not just selective breeding. Selective breeding is when something is chosen for having specific characteristics.

Darwinism is when minor improvements (via mutations) result in a minor advantage, and thus the animal with the advantage will perform better, and mate more. It will pass on the genes for that improvement to its offspring and they will all perform slightly better than the rest of the species and mate more.

 

[ductonius]

Originally posted by Feath
Darwinism is not just selective breeding. Selective breeding is when something is chosen for having specific characteristics.

Darwinism is when minor improvements (via mutations) result in a minor advantage, and thus the animal with the advantage will perform better, and mate more. It will pass on the genes for that improvement to its offspring and they will all perform slightly better than the rest of the species and mate more.

All fine and good, expept for two thing a) mutations are either deactivated or weeded out through sexual reportuction and b) minor changes do not neccisaraly lead to an advantage. IE, a half formed organ/appendage gives no greater advantage than one that isnt present at all.

In fact, if survial was the only thing going, we would all be bacteria, becasue their simplicity is the gratest survival advantage of all.

If you want, I can call it "self selected breeding" to show that there is nobody in real control, but it boils down to the simple strenghening of an already formed trait.

Without a mechanism for the sudden and wholesale forming of new traits, evolution is both too slow and generall implausable as a theory.

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by ductonius
All fine and good, expept for two thing a) mutations are either deactivated or weeded out through sexual reportuction and b) minor changes do not neccisaraly lead to an advantage. IE, a half formed organ/appendage gives no greater advantage than one that isnt present at all.

In fact, if survial was the only thing going, we would all be bacteria, becasue their simplicity is the gratest survival advantage of all.

If you want, I can call it "self selected breeding" to show that there is nobody in real control, but it boils down to the simple strenghening of an already formed trait.

I'm talking about very minor changes. Not someone getting half an organ suddenly. Bad Mutations are weeded out. SMALL good mutations aren't. Sexual reproduction actually ensures more genetic variation.

Simplicity is not the greatest advantage of it all, more complex bacteria can survive against simple bacteria. Stupid example: A wheel is simple, but a wheel with a motor isn't. BUT the wheel with a motor can go faster.

Darwinism isn't selective breeding at all, in the sense you are talking about. New traits can come through Natuaral Selection, just they come gradually.

This is not my forte so I don't have enough examples.

EDIT: Evolution does not need saltutations (spelling) for it to have enough time. There has been billions of years of evolution.

 

[Aethaecyn]

Hmm... I am in personal distaste of the whole gradual adaptation thing, being their is a lot of evidence of as dawdler said even though it is kinda joking the dna being pre-coded to head in one direction or another, or even some sort of presiding consciousness or evolutionary purpose, or God. For instance whales travel by echo-location, their melon (fatty area on the heads) are of a very complex design and up until they were in that exact configuration they would have been completely useless and actually hindered the creature and thus it is almost impossible to have developed gradually because they would have had a disadvantage to the breeding process. Personally I think we don't understand crap about evolution, each theory has at least one glaring contradiction and if you even try to overcome those with "Oh, it just happened, got lucky, etc." It basically invalidates it to begin with. I would say that sex evolved due to the increasing level of intelligence in higher creatures and "consciousness" and self-awareness in general it became necessary for this (pre-coding, purpose, God, etc) to give the creature a goal (whereas things like cells operate chemically, the more complex a creature gets, the more complex its reasons) and to an extent give more value unto itself as an individual and not as some part of a hive and also gives it the choice to begin with. I believe personally that despite our not knowing as individuals what our purposes are and thus developing beliefs upon that and not being able to prove that is also a natural part of our progression as a species in addition to our fighting over them as such, cause it prevents us as individuals from realizing the futility of our own existances, or at least deciding they are so, I mean as we developed the idea of the self we also were given the option whether we wanted to live, A amoeba doesn't have that option because it is nothing more than a chemical reaction, (well as humans are on a broader scale, but its basically the amoeba is moving on tiny binary code and we are the C++ which is structured out of binary but it is still more complex and has to make more generalizations)... hmm those are my thoughts for the moment..

 

[switch]

what your talking about is Natural Selection isnt it?

 

[MrWhite]

Wait... if it was adam and eve who populated the world, they're kids would to have had sex... wouldnt then thier kids kids be retarded?

 

[mindless_moder]

ok so wht ur telling me is plants evolved with some kind of a parasitic bond the stuff the single cell organisms ate lived of of them and they lived of them and fromed a system?

 

[Archangel]

a symbiosis, yes.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by MrWhite
Wait... if it was adam and eve who populated the world, they're kids would to have had sex... wouldnt then thier kids kids be retarded?

good thing I dont believe the creation theory, or else were all a bunch of incestuous retards

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Originally posted by MrWhite
Wait... if it was adam and eve who populated the world, they're kids would to have had sex... wouldnt then thier kids kids be retarded?

Look around at the general population, im sure thats what you will see

 

[Prince of China]

This is what I heard about Adam n' Eve. God made them, they have sex, their children have sex and etc... But because Adam and Eve ate this apple God told them not to...we'll be sinners.
Plus, I heard the banana will be extinct soon...is that true?

 

[Direwolf]

I do tend to agree with Darwinian evolution. But as Aethaecyn covered the idea of natural selection has not been adaquatly explained. Darwin himself didn't even know exactly what the process was or how it worked.
When we gained a grasp of genetics the big theory became that natural selection worked via random genetic mutation. But that doesn't seem to fit either. Organisms like the bat (similar to the whale) have complicated echo-location. The ability to send, recieve, and interpret signals would have to have all evolved at the same time to give the bat an advantage. But the probability of that happening due to random mutation is astronomical.
So natural selection isn't quite right yet, but I think we have the basics nailed down.

 

[Prince of China]

I can't wait 'till the human civilization can be as high-tech as the Predator(From Aliens Versus Predator) That'll be awesome.

 

[raptor]

Originally posted by dawdler
Pff... Evolution doesnt exist. Its precoded in our DNA by a race from another galaxy that we shall claim this galaxy for them in an epic conquest... That's why we have become what we are (and why we are so warmongering, its just practice). The others where failed experiments, rouge DNA, hybrids that mutated in the million year space travel it took it to reach earth. So over the years the predetermined sequences became more and more wrong (and ie the gruesome and horrible battle beast Yxywhwt became a normal housecat). Dinosaurs where sent by another race (lizardlike) to stop the project, but they failed after a second meteorite where sent by the first aliens (humanoids).

That's my take on evolution

plants didnt come first simple heterotrauphs cmae up first they ate amino acids and nucleotides which were amde, it takes to long to explain how just look up simulation experiments these experiments went a long way to help out this explanation, autotrauphs were to cmplicated to exist first, ok now as for u saying that plants ahd ot have been firs twell your wrong there buddy sry u see not all organisms need oxygen to survive there are bacteria and such that dont need to breath oxygen, a while abck nasa brougth down this lense that they had on th emoon i think i twas well ont he lense there was some live bacateria everyone thought this an alian life form nope just ends up a technician sneezed ont he lense before they put it on, so that proves there are organisms that dont need oxygen so they were first ok now autotrauphs popped up along the way and caused the biggest polution problem ever they changed the atmosphere and those organims that were able to survive reproduced and now we have oxygen breathing organisms, as for evolution evolution really is selection and recombinance basically it is kidna like mess up u die those who didnt mess up adn were able to survive reproduced and so their kids were like that, theres this bell curve im sure some of you know wat im referring to well the best int he last generation are the average in the next and so on and so on thats how new species keep popping up the reasont here are so many different species is cuz of divergent evolution basically lets say u have oen type of instects now lets say u split that population in half and put them in two different enviroments sooner or alter you'll either get two "new" species or one or two extinct species

 

[raptor]

Originally posted by Direwolf
I do tend to agree with Darwinian evolution. But as Aethaecyn covered the idea of natural selection has not been adaquatly explained. Darwin himself didn't even know exactly what the process was or how it worked.
When we gained a grasp of genetics the big theory became that natural selection worked via random genetic mutation. But that doesn't seem to fit either. Organisms like the bat (similar to the whale) have complicated echo-location. The ability to send, recieve, and interpret signals would have to have all evolved at the same time to give the bat an advantage. But the probability of that happening due to random mutation is astronomical.
So natural selection isn't quite right yet, but I think we have the basics nailed down.

ok msot mutations are bad because they cause a change in an organism that is functioning normally in its enviroment so usually that messes it up big time but every now and then there is a good mutation but good mutations are very rare because most mutatiosn are abd and are rare to begin with get me? so people say the first diversity between organisms came from mutation which ultimately lead up to plants which caused the stuff i said before now the chances of that are very slim but so is the chances of life starting on a planet and we all know that its possible its happened so yea the chances are rare but it can still happen so sooner or later your gonna nail the 8 ball int he corner pocket and well it happened

 

[CommieX]

Guys, guys. You aren't really this stupid are you? All life on earth has been genetically engineered by aliens. It's quite obvious. There is no evolution; the aliens are simply carrying out a long-term experiment.

By the way, JFK was killed by the US government because he wanted to go public with the Alien Phenomenon, and we already have bases built on the moon and on Mars, as well as joint alien/human bases here on earth. Just wanted to let you know.

PS I figure the aliens probably look something like this : http://www.angelfire.com/tn2/goonies/pics/sloth1.jpg

 

[Prince of China]

ROFL

 

[raptor]

lol if i didnt know better i would think you were serious it certainly wouldnt be a first

 

[synth]

Originally posted by CommieX
Guys, guys. You aren't really this stupid are you? All life on earth has been genetically engineered by aliens. It's quite obvious. There is no evolution; the aliens are simply carrying out a long-term experiment.

By the way, JFK was killed by the US government because he wanted to go public with the Alien Phenomenon, and we already have bases built on the moon and on Mars, as well as joint alien/human bases here on earth. Just wanted to let you know.

completely correct. Not only did aliens have a lot to do with humans, we are hybrids between aliens and apes. You thought our unnaturally large brains were the result of evolution?

 

[switch]

Its a conspiracy

/me hides

 

[raptor]

Originally posted by raptor
lol if i didnt know better i would think you were serious it certainly wouldnt be a first

-

dolphins have bigger brains

 

[The Mullinator]

Has anyone here ever thought of this, that humans are already separating into different sub-species? Look at a the differences between Africans and the average westerner, they do differ physically in much the same way (although not as extreme) as different kinds of dogs. Eventually it will be impossible to call both a chiuaua and a great Dane the same species, as a result humans may eventually evolve into two different species neither of which can be called a human like we are today. I don't think that it will happen that way though but it is something to think about, if Adam and Eve were both white then if evolution doesn't exist then how were humans born with different colour skin? A tan is not genetic.

Something for people who believe in creationism should think about.

 

[Feath]

Blue Whales have bigger brains.

 

[raptor]

Originally posted by The Mullinator
Has anyone here ever thought of this, that humans are already separating into different sub-species? Look at a the differences between Africans and the average westerner, they do differ physically in much the same way (although not as extreme) as different kinds of dogs. Eventually it will be impossible to call both a chiuaua and a great Dane the same species, as a result humans may eventually evolve into two different species neither of which can be called a human like we are today. I don't think that it will happen that way though but it is something to think about, if Adam and Eve were both white then if evolution doesn't exist then how were humans born with different colour skin? A tan is not genetic.

Something for people who believe in creationism should think about.

well i dont really think that could really happen cuz the difference between black and white people really is a gene, the dominant gene would be th eone that changes the skin pigmant to black, and really on human evolution i dont think that humans would ever really change physically since really the reason we're around isnt because of our phsycial abilities but more our mental and really evolution between humans is slowing down considerably since we adapt to our enviroments with inventions and such instead of a group of us dieing and the ones that could survive reproduce and os and so forth, jsut read my past posts, the only thing that i can think off that would allow evolution to take place would be some sort of apocolyptic disaster, nuclear war for example, where the onyl humans that would remain alive would be the ones that were able to survive and reproduce on a dramatically changed and harsh environment

 

[CommieX]

I think that if the human race survives long enough we will begin to devolve (at least physically). This is because less and less people are weeded out through natural selection. For instance, people with genetic deficiencies, who long ago might have died, are now able to live and pass on there genes because of medicine and various treatments. Humans nowadays seem to need mental capabilities more than physical. Eventually we will become childlike, but we'll most likely have larger brains.