Should same sex marriages be legal?

[CptStern]

Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my commands.
There are no laws that magicaly disappear.

where does he say that you cant have same sex marriages....in fact were does he say homosexuality is a sin?

 

[Yakuza]

separate but equal is still discrimination ...isnt that what segragation was all about? didnt segragation end when it was deemed unconstitutional?

And yet when the tides of the homosexual communtiy uses political power to control the church, no one cries discimination.

 

[CptStern]

And yet when the tides of the homosexual communtiy uses political power to control the church, no one cries discimination.

maybe the church should discriminate ...and changing an atiquated, bigoted rule is not the same as "controlling"

 

[Yakuza]

where does he say that you cant have same sex marriages....in fact were does he say homosexuality is a sin?

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination"

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"


Also:

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

 

[CptStern]

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination"

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"


Also:

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

where does Jesus say this?

 

[OCybrManO]

Search for old threads on this subject to find my opinion. I just wanted to post this quote:

What causes homophobia? What is it that makes a heterosexual man worry? I think it's because men know that deep down we have weak sales resistance. We're constantly buying shoes that hurt us, pants that don't fit right. Men think, "Obviously I can be talked into anything. What if I accidentally wander into some sort of homosexual store, thinking it's a shoe store, and the salesman goes, 'Just hold this guy's hand, walk around the store a little bit, see how you feel. No obligation, no pressure, just try it. Would you like to see him in a sandal?'"

EDIT: Whoa, wait a minute. It says effeminate people don't get into Heaven? So, if a guy doesn't act manly enough he doesn't get in? Am I thinking of the wrong definition of that word?

 

[f|uke]

Who is the child coming out with personal attacks? Who is the hypocrit who doesnt say anything about sprafa? Ah yes, I see your point. If you dont want to talk to me then thats fine. You guys have some great debates amongst yourselves.

1) I'm 28, and still, spiritually mature for my age.
2) I DID say something to Sprata about how I felt he should change his avatar. However instead of shrinking down to his level I tried to appeal to his rationality.
3) You need to look up the definition of 'hypocrite'. I have done nothing of the sort, and yet, you, associating a whole country to nazis just because of one mans opinion isnt very Christainly.
4) You still cannot tell me how your religion holds any ties to my marriage.
5) You are a kid. This isnt an attack,. it just cannot be denied.

:thumbs:

 

[Yakuza]

maybe the church should discriminate ...and changing an atiquated, bigoted rule is not the same as "controlling"

How is it being bigoted.


Yeah yeah, i have listened to people for the last twenty something pages, rambling about how the church discriminates, and yet many of you guys have called christians; irrational, zealots, and fools and yet none you you guys either Know any of us personely or understand even the basics of the doctrine you challenge.

So who are the ones being discriminated against?

Christians oppose a homosexual lifestyle just like we would an adulturess one. To us its the same as cheating on your wife. Sin is sin. Thats what we believe. We dont love them any less and dont treat them as infierior. I know I dont and the church I go to doesn't. Gay people can come to church, shoot the church is made up of sinners, but we take the word of god seriously and the only way to salvation is through repentance, this goes for every sin not just Homosexuality.

 

[bgesley426]

Religion should not be a factor in determining the legality of same sex marriages. Gay people wanting to be married is an issue of the courthouse, not the church.

If it were up to religion or worse, the church, to determine legal issues. We'd all be arrested for masturbating. NOW DO YOU WANT THAT? I THINK NOT..

 

[f|uke]

It is fine for a Christian to oppose homosexuality.

But if a Christian tries to impose their beliefs on others, by preventing them from getting married, this is a completely different manner.

Once again, 'Marriage' is not a christian concept. My marriage will certainly not be Christian. So what give you the right to say that the marriage of somebody outside your religion should not be allowed because of your religious doctrins?

Hmm? Hmm?

Can anyone please answer that just one time?

 

[bgesley426]

The religious arguement would completely crumble if it was a different religion running this country, or if this country was based on athiesm, which (logically) it should.

 

[NeLi]

It is fine for a Christian to oppose homosexuality.

But if a Christian tries to impose their beliefs on others, by preventing them from getting married, this is a completely different manner.

Once again, 'Marriage' is not a christian concept. My marriage will certainly not be Christian. So what give you the right to say that the marriage of somebody outside your religion should not be allowed because of your religious doctrins?

Hmm? Hmm?

Can anyone please answer that just one time?

No they can't.

 

[CptStern]

How is it being bigoted.

because it discriminates

Christians oppose a homosexual lifestyle just like we would an adulturess one. To us its the same as cheating on your wife. Sin is sin. Thats what we believe. We dont love them any less and dont treat them as infierior. I know I dont and the church I go to doesn't. Gay people can come to church, shoot the church is made up of sinners, but we take the word of god seriously and the only way to salvation is through repentance, this goes for every sin not just Homosexuality.

yes but an adulerer can still be a christian right? How many christians allow open homosexuals as part of their congregation? if they do then they are being hypocritical because as you've pointed out gays are sinners

 

[Pogrom]

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination"

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"


Also:

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Well, to all of this (it feels so strangely familiar...) I feel I'm just going to have to quote mechagodzilla again. His posts just seemed to sum it up nicely:

Right. Do you eat lobster? Shrimp? Do you work weekends? Do you cut your beard into a curve?

If so, you're as much a "false christian" as the gays who are "distorting" christianity.

Outlaw shellfish! Leviticus says so!

Beat your slaves until they are blind, but no more than that! The bible commands you!

Right. Everything in the bible should be taken literally. You're probably a minority in that aspect of christian belief. Maybe we should pass a law forcing you to understand metaphor? Or to understand that policy from thousands of years ago might not apply today?

The fact is, there are tons of different interpretations of the bible. Even you'd be hard-pressed to discriminate against them all.

 

[f|uke]

No they can't.

I'm getting that feeling.
It seems to me this point is the crux of the debate, making all other points irrelivant.

And yet the point goes unchalleneged and the debate roars on as people argue about the definition of 'bigotry' and 'discrimination' (truly, discrimination by definition is not good or bad,. the morality is contextual).

But, hey, whatever. You guys continue to blow smoke and I'll just keep throwin in the real argument here and there as a reality check.

 

[NeLi]

How can you become a sinner and go to eternal hell because you put your ***k into a ****.

 

[Yakuza]

where does Jesus say this?

Do you know who Jesus is? biblicaly speaking.


John 1


The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[2]
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[3] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[4] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Now that we have established a biblical understanding of the devine position of Jesus what does he say about his own commands.

Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Yakuza]

Well, to all of this (it feels so strangely familiar...) I feel I'm just going to have to quote mechagodzilla again. His posts just seemed to sum it up nicely:

If you actualy read every post you would see I adressed this already.

 

[Yakuza]

How can you become a sinner and go to eternal hell because you put your ***k into a ****.

If you were not a sinner to begin with you wouldn't disregard the commandments of God.

 

[Yakuza]

The religious arguement would completely crumble if it was a different religion running this country, or if this country was based on athiesm, which (logically) it should.

Why should it logically?

 

[CptStern]

Do you know who Jesus is? biblicaly speaking.


John 1


The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[2]
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[3] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[4] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Now that we have established a biblical understanding of the devine position of Jesus what does he say about his own commands.

Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

where does jesus say "homosexuality is a sin"

 

[f|uke]

Logically it should not be based on ANY belief system, as the settlers left Europe to escape religious prosecution.

And still, you guys blow smoke.

Personally I think if Jesus would be alive today, he'd be for gay marriage. Jesus contradicted plenty of other things in the bible, an acceptance and tollerance was Jesus's thing. He really was a much better man then most of his followers.

 

[Pogrom]

If you actualy read every post you would see I adressed this already.

No. No you don't. You simply asked mechagodzilla what Christianity meant to him. Which he answered. Then you didn't post for 6 pages until you started talking about something different.

You never successfully addressed those points above.

Why should it logically?

Because logically religion should not have anything to do with the governing of a country or its citizens. That's why.

 

[bgesley426]

Why should it logically?

Constitution says that we have religious freedom. Having a government based on a christian faith shows favortism.

well....I guess I government has religious freedom as well.

I'll shut up.

 

[NeLi]

Meh.

It still boils down to the fact that some people still do not give a shit about god, his christians, or their rules, and hate the extreme religious fanatics who want to force their own beliefs onto others. This doesn't just concern homosexuality.

Let 'em get married.

 

[f|uke]

:dozey: It boils down to why do these people think they have a right to impose their religion on people outside of it.

 

[Yakuza]

because it discriminates




yes but an adulerer can still be a christian right? How many christians allow open homosexuals as part of their congregation? if they do then they are being hypocritical because as you've pointed out gays are sinners

No they cant. If we are using these terms in context of each other than we agree that homosexuality is a state of being a continuation of sin, either way homosexual or not if you continue to live in sin you can not be a chrisitan. I again ask you to describ the term christian.

Chirstian was the term given to us by the romans for those who imitated the likeness of Christ. The bible says we are to be immitaters of God. now how can we call ourself Christian if we are in a continued state of willfull transgression.

 

[rkef]

I don't have time to wade through all 23 pages, so I apologize if it's been mentioned, but could we please just ban all marriage?

 

[f|uke]

I don't have time to wade through all 23 pages, so I apologize if it's been mentioned, but could we please just ban all marriage?

thanks for bringing some lightheartedness into the debate.

 

[Pogrom]

No they cant. If we are using these terms in context of each other than we agree that homosexuality is a state of being a continuation of sin, either way homosexual or not if you continue to live in sin you can not be a chrisitan. I again ask you to describ the term christian.

Chirstian was the term given to us by the romans for those who imitated the likeness of Christ. The bible says we are to be immitaters of God. now how can we call ourself Christian if we are in a continued state of willfull transgression.

That was the term given to you, yes. Not to me and not to most of the world.

How can gay people call themselves Christian if they are in a continued state of willfull transgression? Easy - it's between gay people and their god.

Not you. Not Me. Not any government.

EDIT - you still haven't addressed mechagodzilla'a points.

 

[Yakuza]

No. No you don't. You simply asked mechagodzilla what Christianity meant to him. Which he answered. Then you didn't post for 6 pages until you started talking about something different.

You never successfully addressed those points above.



Because logically religion should not have anything to do with the governing of a country or its citizens. That's why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apos
I've had this conversation before. There's no arguing with a zealot. Anyone who argues that the Bible is free from contradiction can never be swayed by reason.



Sorry, but saying it is perfectly clear does not make it so, and it is particularly laughable. In fact, "fulfilling the law" isn't even a particularly coherent utterance. And this doesn't even begin to answer the question of why some OT sins are magically no longer sinful and others are. Jesus doesn't say squat about most of the OT laws, and what he does say is fairly ambiguous.



LOL, because you fail to offer any reasonable proof that there are contradictions I am a Zealot. You basicaly said I was fooling myself if I thought that there were no contradictions in the bible, fine, now back up your claim. I can have a reasonable disscussion about the bible, I dont claim to know everything but from what i do know I have yet to find a claim that was not rather easy to dissolve.

Whethere you believe in the bible or not isn't the issue, and your doctrinal education doesn't make you very eligable to make such comments about what Jesus was unclear about. Had you actualy read the bible you would understand that the perfect standard of God is something unabtainable for us because of the corruption of sin. Every single law must be kept in order to stand justified in Gods eyes. However it was the blood of Jesus that attones for the unrightous and now justifies us before God. The final sacrafice.

Does this mean we are free to do whatver we want? No.

Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my commands.
There are no laws that magicaly disappear.

Read this one.

 

[bgesley426]

I don't have time to wade through all 23 pages, so I apologize if it's been mentioned, but could we please just ban all marriage?

AMEN!!!!!!!!

 

[CptStern]

No they cant. If we are using these terms in context of each other than we agree that homosexuality is a state of being a continuation of sin, either way homosexual or not if you continue to live in sin you can not be a chrisitan. I again ask you to describ the term christian.

Chirstian was the term given to us by the romans for those who imitated the likeness of Christ. The bible says we are to be immitaters of God. now how can we call ourself Christian if we are in a continued state of willfull transgression.

hmmm a christian has always meant "folllowers of christ" to me

in some christian sects it's a sin to swim with the opposite sex, dance, partake in "worldly" entertainment etc ...hmmm I must be living in perpetual willful transgression ..though techincally I'm a christian

 

[Yakuza]

That was the term given to you, yes. Not to me and not to most of the world.

How can gay people call themselves Christian if they are in a continued state of willfull transgression? Easy - it's between gay people and their god.

Not you. Not Me. Not any government.

EDIT - you still haven't addressed mechagodzilla'a points.

that not what we are talking about, the bible again calls us to be imitaters of God, how can you imatate God if you are willfully breaking one of his commands. If they have a god that says its fine than whatever but we are talking about the christian definition here.

 

[Yakuza]

hmmm a christian has always meant "folllowers of christ" to me

in some christian sects it's a sin to swim with the opposite sex, dance, partake in "worldly" entertainment etc ...hmmm I must be living in perpetual willful transgression ..though techincally I'm a christian

your right. the greek word is mematos(spelling lol) it means to litteraly walk behind and mimic every movement of the one we are following.

 

[NeLi]

We don't know if half the bible was written by a wanker homophobe, while the rest would be "legit".

Although I still say we should toss the bible away.

 

[Pogrom]

Read this one.

The proof spoken of by Apos is not what mechagodzilla was talking about.

Read it carefully. mecha never said the bible was contradictory - that was Apos.

The burden is now upon you to answer mecha's points.


And to make something perfectly clear:

Whether or not someone believes in the bible does have bearing when discussing this topic. Otherwise we are using a completely arbitrary religion as the basis of this discussion.

 

[f|uke]

Bah. You guys keep arguing and ignoring my undermining of every point you make. This whole thing is meaningless because you can't answer my question in any real way without making the entire world subject to your personal belief system (which you probably do feel they are, despite how ridiculous it is to judge the majority by the opinions of the minority)

It seems to me that any of you guys who are pro-acceptance should take this point and run with it. Arguing facets of religion will only get you running in circles, as all points of religion are subject to personal interpretation anyways.

 

[Pogrom]

that not what we are talking about, the bible again calls us to be imitaters of God, how can you imatate God if you are willfully breaking one of his commands. If they have a god that says its fine than whatever but we are talking about the christian definition here.

Maybe you should argue that with one of the gay priests. Or even that one who almost became a gay bishop.

It's not for you to decide for them how they interpret the bible.

 

[CptStern]

The proof spoken of by Apos is not what mechagodzilla was talking about.

Read it carefully. mecha never said the bible was contradictory - that was Apos.

The burden is now upon you to answer mecha's points.


And to make something perfectly clear:

Whether or not someone believes in the bible does have bearing when discussing this topic. Otherwise we are using a completely arbitrary religion as the basis of this discussion.

the only vocal religion opposed to same sex marriageis the christian faith ...you dont see Hare Krishnas protesting on capital hill the evils of homosexuality ...although with their singing and tambourine playing they might actually make it fun

"hare hare hare krishna say no to gheys!" (no disrespect to members of the hare krishna faith is intended)