Sniper + Spy Update Released!

[Darkside55]

Actually I can. I couldn't before because not only did I not have a computer that could play it, but none of my friends lived around me (they all lived some 2 hours drive away). I moved back up to central CA like a month or so ago; I've BEEN playing TF2.

Just at friends' houses.

Sorry, your scathing remark has failed.

Please keep trying to justify the new unlock system, btw. I've been noting your defense of it and I must say that you're making a valiant effort that I can appreciate.

 

[Eejit]

As someone who didn't use achievement servers or farm for unlocks it's all the same to me. Better in fact, I don't have to play classes I don't like much to unlock and try new weapons and styles/roles.
New system is better for encouraging new players too.
Also cuts down on the 'updated class spam'.

It's not perfect ofc. Getting the same weapon twice is a bit pointless, but at least it shows people they're getting something and the system is working rather than waiting ages for your last unlock without seeing any evidence of anything happening.

I can see how people who abused the system to farm all achievements in a day or use an unlocked might get pissy, but who cares? They weren't using the old system in the way it was intended anyway.


Oh, and since you're playing again you owe crispy some videos.

 

[The Monkey]

What happened to the two new classes? But I'm not gonna complain, sounds like a pretty good update!

 

[Darkside55]

People were getting something when they hit milestones. And yes, you no longer have to grind classes you don't normally play to get their unlocks, but what use is getting five backburners if you never even play pyro? What if all you do is play sniper and you just want jarate and can't get it? You could get it in five minutes or five hours. Complete randomization of items. You've gotta wonder how that meeting looked:

"People don't like grinding for weapons. If they do, most of them just use achievement servers to get all the weapons in two hours. How can we fix this?"
"Okay, first off, let's remove grinding for weapons..."
"Alright, that sounds reasonable."
"And then, we make all unlocks available COMPLETELY AT RANDOM."
"..."
"..."
"You're a goddamned genius."

What happened to the two new classes?

Man where IS the Civilian? Prez was the best class.

 

[Eejit]

Well assuming it is completely at random it's still better than the old system in general, despite some hypothetical circumstances where the old one was better for some people some of the time.
What's the problem in not getting all unlocks within two days of the update? I play Pyro a lot (when I play) and I didn't get axetinguisher for about 3 months. It's nice to have, but I don't see the rush.

 

[Darkside55]

It's not so much that it's a mad rush for everyone to get the updates, it's the fact that if you're going to have unlockable weapons at all, don't make the mechanic for achieving them random. Unlocking weapons in an FPS has always been stupid as shit, but to have it amount to "MAYBE you'll get this weapon...maybe you'll get THAT weapon...maybe you'll get a weapon you already have. SEVERAL TIMES." is stupid.

I think you're also overestimating how much it encourages new players. Imagine how many people will try the game and say, "I just got the same weapon like three times. What the hell. How do I get weapons for this other class? It's at random? That is retarded."

Valve doesn't seem to realize the only reason people farmed for achievements in the first place is because unlocking weapons is ass. People just want to have their grind and get it over with, and go back to not using those weapons in the first place.

 

[MJ12]

Wait, seriously now, seeing some classes use other classes' weapons, is this a bug? It better be a goddamn bug.

 

[Absinthe]

This has turned into an MMO.

No, it has not.

People, look up what ****ing "MMO" means.

 

[Eejit]

It's not so much that it's a mad rush for everyone to get the updates, it's the fact that if you're going to have unlockable weapons at all, don't make the mechanic for achieving them random. Unlocking weapons in an FPS has always been stupid as shit, but to have it amount to "MAYBE you'll get this weapon...maybe you'll get THAT weapon...maybe you'll get a weapon you already have. SEVERAL TIMES." is stupid.

I think you're also overestimating how much it encourages new players. Imagine how many people will try the game and say, "I just got the same weapon like three times. What the hell. How do I get weapons for this other class? It's at random? That is retarded."

Valve doesn't seem to realize the only reason people farmed for achievements in the first place is because unlocking weapons is ass. People just want to have their grind and get it over with, and go back to not using those weapons in the first place.

No, it's not "maybe". If you play long enough you'll get them, without any additional effort or doing anything besides normal play.
They are no longer 'unlockables' really, you don't do anything special to get them. You can ignore their existence and still get them. Valve have completely taken out any grind, there's no more 'getting it over with'.

I disagree about the new players, instead of "new weapons at random? retarded" I think "new weapons for just playing normally? cool" might be more common. But obviously too early to tell, different people will see it differently and we can't tell how many there are of each.

 

[Warbie]

I'm not sure what other games you've played at a clan level, Warbie, but in any game I've ever played at that level there's no room for snipers. It is almost ridiculous to believe that a sniper could be of any benefit.

I think you're winding me up

Assuming you're not - CS, RTCW and ET. The TF2 sniper is arguably the most useful clan sniper around. When you're dealing with team sizes of 6vs6 or 7vs7 it only takes two or three headshots (or one if it's the medic) to swing a point/match. He's also the only class that can instantly kill any class from a distance. He's so obviously godlike how can you not see the benefit? :rolling: (I suspect the public server is too strong in you )

On some points the entire success of the defense hinges on whether your sniper is better than his opposite number.

 

[Darkside55]

If you play long enough you'll get them

Because that's fun. Hey kids, you'll eventually get all the weapons, the only prerequisite is that you play the game.

Or, y'know, be a spectator.

Fact is still, assuming there are people that want certain unlocks, you're going to have to leave it to chance and just play in the hopes that maybe today you'll get that special weapon you've been looking forward to.

different people will see it differently and we can't tell how many there are of each.

Indeed. Someone start a poll.

I think you're winding me up

Assuming you're not - CS, RTCW and ET. The TF2 sniper is arguably the most useful clan sniper around. When you're dealing with team sizes of 6vs6 or 7vs7 it only takes two or three headshots (or one if it's the medic) to swing a point/match. He's also the only class that can instantly kill any class from a distance. He's so obviously godlike how can you not see the benefit?

Nah, I wasn't winding you up, just curious.

Now, I haven't played RTCW at a clan level, or ET, but I was on a Cal-m CS team. Sniping was useless.

Played BF2 in the clan scene, sniper was useless.

TFC OGL 5v5 (and TFC OGL Mulch, but that don't count), sniper was useless.

 

[Eejit]

Because that's fun. Hey kids, you'll eventually get all the weapons, the only prerequisite is that you play the game.

Or, y'know, be a spectator.

Fact is still, assuming there are people that want certain unlocks, you're going to have to leave it to chance and just play in the hopes that maybe today you'll get that special weapon you've been looking forward to.

Playing TF2 normally isn't fun? It's fun to grind every time a class update is released?

Anticipation is often better than fulfilment, nothing wrong with looking forward to a weapon longer than it takes to log into some random achievement box server and getting your grind on. And when you do get it, it'll be that much more exciting.


Also Warbie's right. The clan my flatmate was in had an insanely skilled sniper, he turned the tides of matches all the time.

 

[Warbie]

Played BF2 in the clan scene, sniper was useless.

TFC OGL 5v5 (and TFC OGL Mulch, but that don't count), sniper was useless.

He was situational at best in RTCW/ET too, but not so in TF2. Here - on some maps, anyways - he can dance with soldiers and demos and win entire matches by preventing an uber being built. He'll never be as cookie cutter as soldiers/demos/scouts, but essential nonetheless.

Nothing is more satisfying than twitch headshotting a soldier and leaving him for the wolves to finish off

 

[MJ12]

Lol, I was surprised at the medic's "bong" taunt.

 

[Darkside55]

Playing TF2 normally isn't fun?

Spoiler

No

It's fun to grind every time a class update is released?

No

Anticipation is often better than fulfilment, nothing wrong with looking forward to a weapon longer than it takes to log into some random achievement box server and getting your grind on. And when you do get it, it'll be that much more exciting.

I'd be inclined to agree with you IF there were some method to it. Waiting for something based on completely random chance doesn't build anticipation, it becomes aggravating. It won't be exciting once you get it, it'll be "FINALLY" with an exasperated sigh.

Also Warbie's right. The clan my flatmate was in had an insanely skilled sniper, he turned the tides of matches all the time.

Here - on some maps, anyways - he can dance with soldiers and demos and win entire matches by preventing an uber being built. He'll never be as cookie cutter as soldiers/demos/scouts, but essential nonetheless.

I...I just can't believe it. Snipers useful in clan matches. It's so wild a part of my brain wants to assume you guys are shitting me. I can't get my head around this.

 

[Captain M4d]

GuyzZ!!

Can't you see this is tearing us APART!!!!!

 

[MJ12]

I am actually... inclined to agree with a lot of Darkside's arguments in this thread...

It's just in this episode though, I swear.

 

[Darkside55]

This is that episode where the hero and the villain team up.

 

[MJ12]

But who is the hero, and who is the villain?

 

[Animontius]

Not with a highly flammable gas I've not.

And since airblast uses ammo, I'm quite confident its the same stuff your using to burn people to death.

Hence I don't see how propane puts fires out.

Not to turn this into a science thread, but actually you can put out a flame with a highly flammable gas. remember, a flame needs oxygen, a gas won't combust without it, so you can suffocate a flame by surrounding it with something other than oxygen, even an otherwise flammable gas. I remember putting out a match in high school science class by sticking it into a jar of hydrogen. Plus many gases need a particular ratio of itself to oxygen to actually be combustible. Just saying...

 

[MJ12]

 

[Eejit]

Spoiler

No

Maybe you need to play on better servers :/

I'd be inclined to agree with you IF there were some method to it. Waiting for something based on completely random chance doesn't build anticipation, it becomes aggravating. It won't be exciting once you get it, it'll be "FINALLY" with an exasperated sigh.



I...I just can't believe it. Snipers useful in clan matches. It's so wild a part of my brain wants to assume you guys are shitting me. I can't get my head around this.

There might be a method to some extent, again, too early to say. And I disagree, the experiences of RPG and MMO players in general back me up. Finally getting a random drop you want is exciting.

Has to be a very good sniper, but if he can take out scouts some of the time and his team keep them off his back the rest he'll dominate entire areas of a map completely.

 

[-Psy-]

I seriously doubt Valve's judgement sometimes but I'm sure they'll fly down and rescue the game from inane grinding madness.

 

[Asknoone]

Played for about 5 hours today.

Didn't get anything.

That's funny because I ran across the Ambassador two minutes into playing!

It really is quite a broken, useless system; certainly not a viable alternative to the previous one. All they had to do was create an unlock system, separate to the achievements, that detailed some specific - but not excruciating - goals in order to unlock the weapons.

 

[-Psy-]

Not a clue if this is posted but...

As in everything else we do, we want to iterate, so this is really the first step towards our desired implementation. We also think we have bugs in the system as well, since we’re seeing some players not finding any items after a few hours of play, which is not at all how it’s tuned. We want unlockable drops to be a pretty regular occurrence for players, with the cosmetic hats being the rare finds.

Source

/hope

 

[PvtRyan]

I've said it before: CoD unlock system plx.

An unlock requires (for example) 500 points, getting an achievement is worth 50 points and every point scored in the game translates into an unlock point.

DO IT VALVE.

Please.

 

[Darkside55]

Maybe you need to play on better servers :/

The problem's never been the people I play with, or with the maps and gameplay types. TF2 became boring to me when I realized all the skills I honed from TFC were readily adaptable to TF2, but there was no further to go in terms of depth. I don't have anything to build upon; there are no further tricks to learn or skills I can perfect. Everything's reached endgame.

For a long time the only thing that I played in TF2 were jump maps. And then I did surfing maps. And then there were no maps I hadn't jumped and no pipes I hadn't surfed. I even surfed a map made of penises and jumped through a jump map that was dark as shit with transparent floors. There was nothing left.

And then TF2 was boring.

There might be a method to some extent, again, too early to say. And I disagree, the experiences of RPG and MMO players in general back me up. Finally getting a random drop you want is exciting.

And where are the FPS players who will back you up?

Spoiler

There aren't any

Has to be a very good sniper, but if he can take out scouts some of the time and his team keep them off his back the rest he'll dominate entire areas of a map completely.

I've got to see this with my own eyes. A sniper, serving better than an engineer or a soldier on D...this violates some kind of natural law.

I'm sorry guys I just can't believe it. I've gotta see this shit. I've known incredible snipers, been clanmate to incredible snipers, hell in BF2 I myself could sight a chinaman in a J10 doing full thrust at a football field length away and put a bullet in his brain. I can circumcise a fly with the crossbow in HL2DM at the opposite side of killbox_final. But a sniper being useful in a clan game...it just makes me automatically think that the opposing side has to suck dick. They HAVE to. Because no matter how useful a sniper could be they've only got from your base to the enemy's. From the previous cap point to the next. They're a class with a limited window of opportunity and a limited range of play beyond "defend here, point and shoot." It's a task better suited to damn near anyone else.

But I could be wrong. After all TF2 scouts don't fly. And there's respawn time to take into account, so assuming in something like a 5v5 with 2 scouts on O...ugh. This is making me mad, actually. Snipers. Outside of pubs.

 

[Warbie]

I've got to see this with my own eyes. A sniper, serving better than an engineer or a soldier on D...this violates some kind of natural law.

You're showing your public side again

Engineers are useless on many maps/points. Often, using an engineer equals a guaranteed loss. Sure, there's the odd point where a sentry is mandatory, but even then you'll find better clans dropping engies for more versatile classes.

But I could be wrong.

I'm afraid you are

TF2 differs from most fps in that it is very hard to kill someone at a distance quickly. Even at a medium distance it takes focus fire - which is why focus fire is such a huge part of the game. Scouts are always found in pairs - waists tied together with a meter long piece of rope - and soldiers/demo shoot as one. The sniper is alone in being able to kill from anywhere. A medic pokes his head out and bang - you've just won the round in a single shot. Kill two of the enemy team while they're defending a point and that's it, 6 vs 4, you've won the point. They're feared in matches. It's this emphasis on focus fire and the even bigger emphasis on building/protecting the uber that gives competitive TF2 such a unique and interesting dynamic. It's also that which makes the sniper such a ****ing badass :sniper:

 

[Viperidae]

It's not perfect ofc. Getting the same weapon twice is a bit pointless, but at least it shows people they're getting something and the system is working rather than waiting ages for your last unlock without seeing any evidence of anything happening.

Except, just as Samon said, it's completely ass-backward broken. My friend got all 3 spy unlocks in one hour while playing on a small arena server. I played for 3 hours on multiple servers and didn't get anything, not even previous unlocks. People on the Steam forums have reported playing five hours without getting anything. There is no system. It is literally the epitome of random.

Also pickups don't work.

Also darkside snipers can be useful in arena matches... not that I've played in scrims per se, but on simple maps like arena_granary every once in a while the sniper can get the other team's medic. After the initial rush I agree that he's pretty useless though.

 

[Eejit]

The problem's never been the people I play with, or with the maps and gameplay types. TF2 became boring to me when I realized all the skills I honed from TFC were readily adaptable to TF2, but there was no further to go in terms of depth. I don't have anything to build upon; there are no further tricks to learn or skills I can perfect. Everything's reached endgame.

The same skills as TFC? For a couple of classes maybe.

And where are the FPS players who will back you up?

Spoiler

There aren't any

Spoiler

Because FPS players only play FPS games, and those who do only play FPS will have tried it oh so many times before to be able to judge. Whatever.

But I could be wrong. After all TF2 scouts don't fly. And there's respawn time to take into account, so assuming in something like a 5v5 with 2 scouts on O...ugh. This is making me mad, actually. Snipers. Outside of pubs.

Clan matches are usually 6v6. Often Medic, Demo, 2x Scout, 2x Soldier. I think my flatmate's clan usually swapped a sniper in for scout but I'm not sure. If its a sniper good enough to kill scouts a lot of the time then he'll be fine since the other team is unlikely to try and counter with a sniper or use a spy.
It's not about shooting the wings off a fly afaik, it's about shooting the tailfins off a rocket.

 

[Disrupted_Hunter]

Yes! Can't wait to play this weekend!!!! =D

 

[Darkside55]

You're showing your public side again

Engineers are useless on many maps/points. Often, using an engineer equals a guaranteed loss.

This is fucked up. It's going against thirteen years of Team Fortress. This is some Twilight Zone shit. Snipers are useful, engineers are useless.

Tell me, man, do they use the pyro in clan games in your universe? Do they use the heavy?!

The same skills as TFC? For a couple of classes maybe.

Every single one of the classes, with the exception of medic. Every single one was the same, bar slight differences in the way a specific thing was achieved or some additions/subtractions.

Spoiler

Because FPS players only play FPS games, and those who do only play FPS will have tried it oh so many times before to be able to judge. Whatever.

I don't think you really get the demographic of FPS players. In this thread alone, NO ONE has agreed with you. And that's on HL2.net, the most Valve-loving fansite there is.

Clan matches are usually 6v6. Often Medic, Demo, 2x Scout, 2x Soldier.

See, that sounds more like what I'm used to. Except in TF2 that medic is probably on D, supporting, ain't he? Do meds mostly use krieg?

 

[Slug Advisor]

You have to really wonder why Darkseid is playing the game. And made a point of it.

 

[Viperidae]

Do meds mostly use krieg?

Yep. Well, the good ones anyhow.

 

[Eejit]

I don't think you really get the demographic of FPS players. In this thread alone, NO ONE has agreed with you. And that's on HL2.net, the most Valve-loving fansite there is.

Actually several people have.

Most people just love to make kneejerk melodrama "sky is falling" posts without even thinking through the implications of the new mechanic versus the old, while most of the others don't seem to be able to see past the release-day bugs in it - afk farming, lower drop rate than intended etc.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

People just want the new toys to play with. The new system is better, no grinding or servers filled with just spies / snipers. However, people want the satisfaction of playing with the new toys, that is why they are there to play. If they wanted normal TF2 (pre update) they wouldn't be play specifically for that time.

I played pipeline for 3 hours and go nothing. I switched to Dustbowl, spawned as a demoman and got a huntsman in 15 seconds of my first life. So random. I've enjoyed playing with it, and I'm appreciating it a lot more because of how lucky I am to get it.

I am also insanely jealous I don't have the jarate (which my friend was really using well!) and any of the spy unlocks (my favourite class)...as I'd be able to do a really good job with them. Many bugs right now which I won't post, for the fear of people really ruining games! Fixes will be along shortly I'm sure.

Blog post tonight will be interesting.

edit: This one was particularly sweet!

Spoiler

 

[-Psy-]

Anybody else enjoying the new Spy features? Being able to use enemy teleports, knife priming, disguise health; all lovely additions.

(However, I still don't have a single goddamn Spy unlock.)

 

[Viperidae]

So far I've got 2 more flareguns.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

What really pisses me off is that picking up said weapons doesn't even let you get it. I picked up 2 huntsmen, you would think that should at least work too.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

Anybody else enjoying the new Spy features? Being able to use enemy teleports, knife priming, disguise health; all lovely additions.

(However, I still don't have a single goddamn Spy unlock.)

I used an enemy teleporter today, came out the engineer disregarded me backstabbed him and sapped all his stuff. Use it while people don't know!