so we had a rock int he shoe that we cant take out

[Raziaar]

:O

But what about cold hard cash in their hands!?

 

[Solaris]

Chavez puts alot of money into social welfare.

 

[Ome_Vince]

I always thought it was hilarious how the U.S. embassy in Venezuela warn Chavez a coup was happening, preventing Chavez from being assassinated, then Chavez turns around claiming the US was the one trying to kill him lol. Why would the US sack their own coupe attempt?
Anyways, the reason i dislike Chavez is mainly because i disapprove ANY government from taking steps to totalitarian control. Ranging from media-silence, to taking over the PDVSA, firing thousands of workers and management officials that objected his governmental take-over of the countries Oil industry, firing many generals and army military officials not in his favor, and his latest greatest threatening to fire all government or state-owned company workers if they did not vote for him.
That and the smoke rising of his dubious elections, from which I've posted a quote in my first post in this topic.
All in all, i dont like Castro, and i dont like Chavez. Chavez is trying to use the worlds dislike of current US foreign policy and Bush, to strengthen his grip, and turn Venezuela into a new Cuba.
That being said, I do think in this case its likely the majority voted for Chavez, whether he cheated the large margin or not.

 

[Raziaar]

Chavez puts alot of money into social welfare.

Regarding your 'housing subsidies' thing... which dates back to 1998 I might add... I'll go ahead and say this.

Now... keep in mind I don't have any actual sources, but I doubt this guy is lying since he has access to the records and lives in the country to see what has happened over the course of time.

Rosales has started by saying that the track record of the current administration is an absolute failure. Only 145.000 houses have been built in the last 8 years in spite of the huge windfall of oil profits. "Lousy management, lousy administration of public resources" are to be blamed for it. The poor, that are always in the first line of reasoning of the government, have not seen any benefits in terms of housing solutions.

"If we were to compare the number of houses built by this very rich administration with past ones, one can easily conclude that the discourse about caring for the poor is mere rethoric" remarked Rosales.

Descentralization is to play a fundamental role in the new plan, which will count with active participation of the private sector in order to boost construction and tackle in effective manner the huge deficit accumulated in past years. "We shall build 1.5 million new houses. Additionaly 600.000 ranchos will be modernised and built up to decent standards, as we have done in Zulia through a programme called "Vivienda Feliz." Another part of the plan shall be to provide direct funding to some 300.000 rancho dwellers so that they can rebuild their own stuff with the assistance of government agencies" added the candidate.

Other aspect of this plan will be to enhance roads and other access to barrios.

Bs.75 billions -some $34billions- will be destined by the Rosales government to fund this initiative.

"There are far too many laws in this country which only benefits corrupt civil servants that make nice out of the necessity of others. Not only in housing but in every aspect of the public administration" replied Rosales to another question pertaining the slow pace of delivering solutions.

"Governorhips and Mayorships around the country are not receiving what would normally be assigned to them simply because the government calculates the budget on a $20 p/b when in fact average price hovers around $60 p/b. This government uses the rest of the funds in discretionary fashion at the detriment of Venezuelan regions. We have said that we will fund a part of the housing plan through "Mi Negra" programme and we shall do so merely by budgeting correctly" stated Rosales.

The plan will generate 700.000 direct jobs

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200610171209



I mean... if any of this is true... that's not much initiative on Chavez's part of 'housing for the poor' in EIGHT years.

 

[<RJMC>]

"omfg he gives free stuff to poor" is what you allways say
it clearly show you only want to heard what you only whant to hear and not mention the others factors

and allways come trying to "prove me wrong" whit some stuff in the internet

I see there is no point in making this kind of thread

 

[Ome_Vince]

heh, giving free stuff to the poor is the oldest trick in the book to calm the masses. Commodus, a Roman Emperor, best known for being featured in the movie Gladiator, used that "trick" a lot to calm the masses of Rome.
"hmm, Sir, the masses are revolting our idiotic rule"
"****, well just toss some free bread at them, and they'll be happy"

 

[Solaris]

Raziaar:

In Chávez's nearly eight years in office, some 244,000 homes have been provided

Source

Of course, 1/3 venezualans still lack decent housing, but the government is trying to solve this problem.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Are they homes like this?
Any examples as to what kind of homes are build? Cause i here such arguments coming from Cuba as well: "well they give free health care and education"
Reality: dogs are treated better, and education is like state propaganda.
Personally I disagree with torpedoing a countries wealth by confiscating industries to please the masses with cheap cottages. A better way to improve Venezuelans conditions in the long run, is strengthening the infrastructure and industry.
A problem many people have is they only look in the short-run, disregarding reality and the future. The richer and more democratic Venezuela and its industries get, the better their lives will be in the future. Right now this is just creating another Africa, where the population becomes dependent on the governments gifts.. which... actually gives the government so much more power.... (why overthrow the hand that feeds you?)

Tossing food into Africa along with some annual payments is not going to help Africans, it only makes slaves out of them.. Strengthening their industry by for instance blocking Asian and Western left-over products from being dumped there is a much wiser road.

 

[Solaris]

Reality: dogs are treated better, .

Couldn't be more wrong.

According to the World Health Organization, Cuba provides a doctor for every 170 residents,[30] and has the second highest doctor to patient ratio in the world after Italy [31]. [/quoute]
Source - wikipedia

'How did a small tropical republic manage to create the best health-care system in Latin America?

Article

 

[zleppelin]

I think Chavez is ugly as hell but he has a heart of gold

 

[CptStern]

are you usually sexually attracted to world leaders before coming to a conclusion as to whether you like them or not?

"hmm GW Bush, hell of a liar, and tends to kill lots and lots of people ...but he has this je ne sais quoi quality about him ..perhaps it's the dull sparkle in his eyes or how he drunkenly looks into the camera and proceeds to butcher the english language ...but he cant be all that bad right?

 

[kirovman]

king henry, bit of a fatty but a nice guy. hardly a femanist though.

 

[<RJMC>]

next time I will use bush when someone come agaisnt me

after all bush is a asshole and get reelected again isnt?

 

[CptStern]

well he cant be re-elected (only 2 terms per president) ...however he's just a puppet. A slave to the whims of his neo-conservative masters


kirovman: when you said this:

"king henry, bit of a fatty .."

I thought to myself "hmmm maybe I could roll him up and smoke him" :E

fatties = big doobages ....doobages = doobies ...doobies = fatties

 

[<RJMC>]

he can change the law just like he do whit the whole "I cant be arrested if I make war crimes" stuff

 

[CptStern]

nah only congress can change that law ...surprisingly enough the president doesnt have many real powers ..his most powerful is probably his right to veto a bill ..however congress can overturn that

 

[Ome_Vince]

Couldn't be more wrong.

According to the World Health Organization, Cuba provides a doctor for every 170 residents,[30] and has the second highest doctor to patient ratio in the world after Italy [31]. [/quoute]
Source - wikipedia

[/SIZE]
Article

*kuch, check this for excellent healthcare.
Or this, some munchy pictures near the bottom

Dont they say "a photograph says more than a thousand words?"
Its another example of how numbers are thrown as argument without looking at the quality and reality. Quality over quantity dude...

Heh, /offtopic, Funny too how an extremely poor nation as Cuba, has a leader that is amongst the richest:
Source
hmm, thats weird, although most of it isn't hard-fact and more assumed wealth in companies and such he owns, isn't he supposed to share his wealth with his population as a true commie, instead of letting a once prosperous nation get stuck in the 1950's?
What a line up: Fidel Castro, Queen Elizabeth II and the Sultan of Brunei, lol

 

[Raziaar]

Raziaar:
Source

Of course, 1/3 venezualans still lack decent housing, but the government is trying to solve this problem.

244 thousand homes in 8 years sounds like a fairly weak number to me... considering the vast potential.

At that rate, it'd take 32 years just to provide a million homes. I'm sure there's a vast number of people who lack adequate housing compared to those million homes.

 

[DaMaN]

*kuch, check this for excellent healthcare.
Or this, some munchy pictures near the bottom

Dont they say "a photograph says more than a thousand words?"
Its another example of how numbers are thrown as argument without looking at the quality and reality. Quality over quantity dude...

Well, I would personally choose to believe the World Health Organization over someone's blog and a clearly anti-cuban biased website.

But then mabye I'm just one of those oh-so-dangerous socialists who want to terrorise the world with free healthcare and free education. :rolling:

 

[Ome_Vince]

uhm, the World Health Organization states the amount of hospitals vs population ratio, not the quality of the hospitals and medical care, which is, if you read what i posted, what I'm focusing on and which is much more important than how many cottages Chavez can slap on his population, or how many barbaric hospitals Castro can plant.
Anti-Cuban website or not, those pictures are not lying, and they were from one of the larger hospitals of Cuba.

Free healthcare is great, but not at the cost of the quality of the healthcare.
Quality of quantity.., always.

 

[DaMaN]

uhm, the World Health Organization states the amount of hospitals vs population ratio, not the quality of the hospitals and medical care, which is, if you read what i posted, what I'm focusing on and which is much more important than how many cottages Chavez can slap on his population, or how many barbaric hospitals Castro can plant.

Ah, I guess I was comparing apples to oranges (both taste good though).

I see your point, so I did some research. According to the WHO:
Here's Cuba: http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/index.html
And Here's the States: http://www.who.int/countries/usa/en/

It seems to me that they look about equal. Funny, what with Cuba's barbaric hospitals, evil medical system, and being classified as a third-world country under a first-world country blockade.

So, yes, my original comment stands. I'd rather believe the WHO than a blog post and an anti-cuban website.

Anti-Cuban website or not, those pictures are not lying, and they were from one of the larger hospitals of Cuba.

Pictures can always be deceptive. The guy who posted those pictures on the anti-Cuban website (hardly the "real" Cuba) admits he dislikes Castro and the current Cuban government intensely. So, which pictures would he post up? The select few of the horrid conditions in select places? Or the ones that show 350,000 successful operations performed daily for free?

For example, take a look at these pictures: http://www.oboylephoto.com/byberry/

They were taken from a hospital in North Philidelphia in the States. Now, you wouldn't guess it, but this hospital was only closed 20 years ago. But if you only had those pictures to go by, you'd conclude that healthcare in the States is pretty damn bad. Well, in fact it is, if you see my argument in the other post, but it's nowhere near as bad as these pictures make it out to be.

Free healthcare is great, but not at the cost of the quality of the healthcare.
Quality of quantity.., always.

Not nececarially - if your healthcare is all quality, it would be too expensive for all but the five richest kings of Europe.

Cuba is doing pretty damn well - especially with the US blockade on it.

 

[Raziaar]

Not nececarially - if your healthcare is all quality, it would be too expensive for all but the five richest kings of Europe.

Cuba is doing pretty damn well - especially with the US blockade on it.

Filthy hospital conditions are NOT acceptable anywhere. Hospitals filled with filth are likely to cause more deaths than save... because people in hospitals tend be easily ravaged by infections and the like.

 

[<RJMC>]

Filthy hospital conditions are NOT acceptable anywhere. Hospitals filled with filth are likely to cause more deaths than save... because people in hospitals tend be easily ravaged by infections and the like.

whe needed to bring my grandpa to a military hospital for a surgery in the zone of the eye,after the surgery he was worse, he remnbered stuff from the past and went like mad,and then they told he got infected whit something in the hospital,my grandpa never recovered
fine example of the hospital of the goverment

 

[zleppelin]

Those pictures of "the real" Cuba are quite eye opening. If it weren't because that website isn't so blatantly anti-Castro I might have taken them with a bit more than just a grain of salt.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Ah, I guess I was comparing apples to oranges (both taste good though).

I see your point, so I did some research. According to the WHO:
Here's Cuba: http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/index.html
And Here's the States: http://www.who.int/countries/usa/en/

It seems to me that they look about equal. Funny, what with Cuba's barbaric hospitals, evil medical system, and being classified as a third-world country under a first-world country blockade.

So, yes, my original comment stands. I'd rather believe the WHO than a blog post and an anti-cuban website.

Which numbers are you referring to? The US in that table scores higher numbers on most accounts as far as i can tell :/ I've had some beers so i must be missing something.
I also see the US has 15% health expenditure on the GDP compared to Cuba's 7,3%..
Interesting chart. Here's the %
Thats interesting, though i cant really "see" exact numbers atm lol (sorry i'll recheck this post in the morning )

Also, putting things in perspective, here's Holland:
http://www.who.int/countries/nld/en/

We have an excellent healthcare system, government sponsored, socialist system. As you can see the numbers dont lie far apart.
Mortality rate is where the US doesnt score to well, but /me figures things like their crooked gun law have a say in that.

So putting things in perspective comparing to other countries Cuba scores average. And that for a country that supposingly puts so much on healthcare -> they should be almost Nr1 in the list, but they're not..

Pictures can always be deceptive. The guy who posted those pictures on the anti-Cuban website (hardly the "real" Cuba) admits he dislikes Castro and the current Cuban government intensely. So, which pictures would he post up? The select few of the horrid conditions in select places? Or the ones that show 350,000 successful operations performed daily for free?

For example, take a look at these pictures: http://www.oboylephoto.com/byberry/

They were taken from a hospital in North Philidelphia in the States. Now, you wouldn't guess it, but this hospital was only closed 20 years ago. But if you only had those pictures to go by, you'd conclude that healthcare in the States is pretty damn bad. Well, in fact it is, if you see my argument in the other post, but it's nowhere near as bad as these pictures make it out to be.

"only 20 years ago"? They closed that hospital and left it there to rot since then...
Lets not compare that to an active hospital which is one of the larger ones in Cuba
I see your point, but those images are far too disturbing to be done with as "well the photographer is biased and pulled it out of proportion".
Biased or not, those images do show at least 1 large hospital that isn't fit to treat dogs, let alone humans.

Not nececarially - if your healthcare is all quality, it would be too expensive for all but the five richest kings of Europe.

Cuba is doing pretty damn well - especially with the US blockade on it.

The point is, it will balance itself out. In Holland i think we have an almost good mix in the healthcare system, and it balanced itself out (even though there's still some issues).

Quality is what you should aim for, then eventually more quality will pop up as thats where the money lies, and it starts balancing itself out.

There is also some criticism on state sponsored hospitals like in Holland. (dont get me wrong, i fully support the state funding hospitals, but I'm just presenting a story on the fact that no solution is 100% and some socialist laws should be more stricter...):
My father used to work for a government agency that checked the hospitals spending.
Hospitals would receive lets say $5 million dollars a year from the state.
Lets say in year 1987, Hospital A spends $4,3 million dollars.
What happens to the 700k? Hospital management doesn't wish the government to tight up on their funding or have to give back the 700k. What happens is they start spending it on wacko things like overpaying people, buying random crap just to make the $5 million.
This "saved money" could much better be used for education thats in need of funds.
Point being, our socialist state spills so much money a year it isnt even funny.
I believe in a firm balance, and thats what neither 100% capitalism or communism offers. In Holland, i think we need to be a little more stricter and capitalistic, to attract more businesses, stop the exodus of intelligence and businesses (they're not going to pay 60% tax) to be profitable again and social at the same time.

As for Cuba, imo there's a lot of smoke coming from Cuba, there's thousands attempting to flee the country, ending up in Miami,,-> Fidel, just like Stalin back in the day, needs to virtually fortify his country to keep the people in.
Thats how good and wonderful that system works, and how happy people are with it.

 

[hari66]

Filthy hospital conditions are NOT acceptable anywhere. Hospitals filled with filth are likely to cause more deaths than save... because people in hospitals tend be easily ravaged by infections and the like.

you dont know what the **** you are talking about, so kindly keep off subjects you dont know anything about.

By insisting on every on every hospital having every damn thing science has to offer....CT scans,MRI,s angio's and what not, you are only making healthcare more expensive and putting it out if reach for the common man.apprx 70 % of patients seek a doctor or hospital for minor ailments,which does nt require state of the art medical equipment.Of course poor countries focus much more on providing basic services than in high cost procedures.

Even the best hospitals have zones where if you take a pic, it will appear like an absolute dump.

And for all this talk about quanlity over quantity, just let me ask you a question....consider an area of say 500 square miles where diarrhea is endemic. would it help if you had one five star hospital located in a corner,or would you rather have 50 smaller facilities with just the basic equipment and staff needed to treat the problem...in this case,dehydration.....spread out across the area?

the reason why small countries do well in providing healthcare is mainly due to the small population which need be covered. one other example is srilanka, which even though has a small gdp, still has passable healthcare.

i would therefore say that while quality of care is important,even more important is the need to spread it out and make healthacre accessible to all people, not just the rich.

 

[Raziaar]

you dont know what the **** you are talking about, so kindly keep off subjects you dont know anything about.

Excuse me? I don't know what the **** I'm talking about?

I have a starting question. Are you some kind of moron?

Now... all funnies aside, what the hell are you talking about? Did I mention MRI's... did I mention all the other fancy stuff? No... I mentioned FILTHY HOSPITAL CONDITIONS.

Filthy hospital conditions are a REAL serious problem in hospitals that have them. Unless of course you think that patients have boosted immune systems just from being in the presence of a hospital.

Do you know how an infection works? Do you know how infections are spread to patients from doctors and other patients and the enviroment they work in?

Fact of the matter is... keeping hospitals clean and sanitary is NOT that expensive... It's mostly due to neglect that hospitals become so filthy, and it's completely unacceptable. So kindly step back, look at what you just said... and stop being an idiot because you think you know everything.


"Ohhh... well. Keeping the hospital clean and as free of disease as possible costs money, and that cost is passed on to the patient. SO **** SANITARY CONDITIONS."



I'll leave you one final thought. Why do you approve of unhealthy hospital conditions to save money... when all the serious and deadly infections that can be had in those conditions... will cost the hospital more money to treat?

 

[CptStern]

most autoclaves/sterilizers are in the hundreds of dollars ..they're affordable for most clinics/private practices so infection really isnt an issue when it comes to performing medical services (I know because my company ships autoclaves across the globe ..mostly to 3rd world countries) ..and chemosterilant is dirt cheap (disinfecting solution) ..the number one problem with healthcare in 3rd world countries is the lack of big ticket items like monitoring/dianostic tools, MRA/MRI machines, ekg machines etc

..it's not like they're delivering babies by candle light/cutting umbilical chords with pen knives like they are in iraq

 

[Raziaar]

Here's a tiny little factsheet... concerning british hospitals.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/mischief/mrsa_factsheet.shtml

Find out more about MRSA with our factsheet.

Did You Know?
There are at least 100,000 hospital acquired infections a year.

Around 9% of hospital in-patients acquire an infection while in hospital.

They are estimated to cost the NHS £1 billion a year.

Infection control teams suggest that 15-30% of infections could be prevented.

Bugs are becoming more antibiotic resistant and frequent.

A patient with a hospital acquired infection is about seven times more likely to die than an uninfected patient.

Men are twice as likely to acquire an MRSA-type infection as women.

International evidence suggests that improving the rate of hand washing could reduce infection rates by 10-50%.

The number of cleaners working in the NHS has almost halved in the last 18 years.

Within Europe, the UK has one of the highest levels of MRSA bloodstream infections as a proportion of all Staphylococcus aureus bloodstream infections.

Sources
National Audit Office
Department of Health report
Hammersmith Hospitals NHS Trust
Unison
mrsainfection.org

And that is with British hospitals. We're talking here about hospitals that are very likely to have FAR worse sanitary conditions, so those numbers obviously would go up.

I don't see why anybody in their right mind, wouldn't be outraged by dirty hospital conditions in a free healthcare society. Free healthcare may mean reduced quality of healthcare... but it should NOT mean negligence in caring for the hospitals cleanliness.










http://www.redorbit.com/news/health...nezuelan_hospitals/index.html?source=r_health

Politics Controls Fate of Venezuelan Hospitals

CARACAS, Venezuela _ Inside the Venezuelan government's Jose Gregorio Hernandez Hospital in the sprawling underclass neighborhood of Catia, many of the ceiling tiles are missing or have years-old water stains, and much of the metal is rusting.

Patients are crammed into small waiting rooms, and some carry their own needles. Problems are not simply aesthetic: Four patients in the critical care unit died earlier this year when the hospital ran out of oxygen.

Contrast this with the Catia Popular Clinic down the road, which has the latest X-ray and sonogram machines, fresh sheets for new beds and a shiny finish on the signs that point the way through the facility.

Welcome to the strange world of public healthcare in Venezuela, where two systems _ divided largely by politics _ are operating on virtually different planets, even while they serve the same population and are supposed to be integrating into a seamless unit.

Healthcare has always been political in a country where oil money is abundant but social services remain weak. Yet it has become a particularly fierce battleground in Venezuela since President Hugo Chavez took power in 1999, and it's the patients of traditional hospitals who appear to be bearing the brunt of this fight.

The self-proclaimed socialist Chavez, who is seeking reelection Dec. 3, has spent $100 million revamping the system, according to government statistics.

However, Chavez has largely ignored the traditional hospitals, presumably because the physicians' association in Venezuela supported opposition forces who attempted to oust Chavez in a 2002 military coup and later via a national strike.

Chavez survived the onslaught, then moved to marginalize the traditional healthcare system by building mini-clinics called "octagon modules" _ named for the shape of the brick structures _ and using doctors from Cuba to provide healthcare in the outlying neighborhoods free of charge.

An estimated 20,000 Cuban medical personnel now dot the Venezuelan landscape, manning the modules in the slums where they can do preliminary diagnosis and sometimes treatment.

The modules, which the government says now number 2,100, are popular. They provide the poor with ready access to doctors and give the president a boost as he heads toward elections.

"This is for us," Celsa Narvaez, a community leader in the January 23rd neighborhood in Caracas, said of the modules. "The president is making a huge effort. We have to make a similar effort for him."

Catia Popular Clinic is part two of this program, which is known as Barrio Adentro, or Inside the Neighborhood. Its patients are supposed to be referred by the Cubans in the modules, but the director of the clinic, Claudia Valdez, says there are many first-timers.

She says the clinic is also supposed to refer patients to the third part of the system, traditional hospitals such as the Jose Gregorio Hernandez Hospital. But so far that hasn't happened.

"There's still a lot of tension," Valdez said about the relationship between the new system and the old. "But the idea is that there should be a dialogue between the sides. Healthcare shouldn't be political."

Valdez says that some administrators have made it political, however, with regard to working with other physicians.

"There are some administrators who will only deal with you if you're red" she said, referring to the adopted color of the Chavez supporters. "That's wrong."

Still, there are legitimate and nonpolitical reasons why some people reject the traditional system.

Hospitals here were never the best. Patients staying overnight, for instance, often had to bring their own sheets. Medicines and some treatments were prohibitively expensive for some residents; now they are free. Because of the low pay, doctors opened up private practices, splitting their time between institutions and patients _ something advocates of the new system hope to eliminate.

But at Jose Gregorio Hernandez Hospital, longtime doctors complain that the new system wants to trample the old, even if it means pushing experienced doctors out of practice.

And in the hallways of this 35-year-old building, the fear of this occurring is palpable.

"They want people who are red to the bone," said Dr. Lia Eppel Khon, who has been at the hospital 30 years. "They don't want anyone who is not part of their political crowd."

Khon and another longtime veteran of the hospital, who didn't want his name mentioned for fear that he'd lose his job and his pension, said that the hospital has not received sufficient resources or maintenance for years.

Several patients said they don't feel the tension between the old system and the new, and that many of them use both. But they also note that the hospital has deteriorated. They pointed to the holes in the ceilings, the crowded waiting rooms and the old equipment.

"This is failing," said Emilio Machado, a 75-year-old retired construction worker, about healthcare in Venezuela. "They don't take into account what the patient needs."

 

[Solaris]

Ome_vince, you've been reading far to much anti-cuba propaganda.

The fact is, in Cuba you are not treated like a dog in a hospital, you are treated almost as well as in the USA, but for free, which means everyone gets treated well for free, unlike the US.

You then post some pretty poor source saying Castro is a very rich man, he doesn't even own a house.

The thing is, there is alot of poverty in Cuba, life isn't great for alot of people. But what can the Cuban leaders do when the US puts such an outragous blockade on them:

The Cuban government estimates that the total direct economic impact caused to Cuba by the U.S. embargo is $86 billion

For a third world country, that is a majour sum.
More here

 

[Raziaar]

By the way, that new quote I added above is also for you Solaris. Regarding Hugo Chavez, and Venezuelan health care.

 

[Solaris]

By the way, that new quote I added above is also for you Solaris. Regarding Hugo Chavez, and Venezuelan health care.

Of course some of the hospitals aren't great, what do you expect from a developing country providing free health care. Alot of money is going into the system, but there is a long way to go. Chavez's mini-clincics are a great example, bringing treatment direct to local communities, of course there are tensions between some administrators, the report seems exagerated but I don't know.

We can forgive a country for not having super duper healthcare when it's not a very rich country, you can't blaim that on Chavez. What however is UNFORGIVEABLE, is for a 1st world country to not even provide basic healthcare to its poorest citizens if they have no money.
I'm talking about the USA.

 

[Raziaar]

I'm talking about the whole 'red to the bone' thing. Doesn't that seem a bit... asinine to you? No decent medical treatment unless you contour to some other persons political beliefs. Though I can't expect you to have too much outrage against that in this situation, since those political beliefs mirror your own, as you've already made it clear that the guy is an Idol or something to you.

 

[CptStern]

but despite your protestation over conditions in venezuela raziaar the fact is that you are unable to recieve medical care despite living in one of the richest countries in the world ...over 45 million americans are uninsured ..so it really doesnt matter how sophisticated you are if a big chunk of the population has no access to it

 

[Ome_Vince]

Ome_vince, you've been reading far to much anti-cuba propaganda.

The fact is, in Cuba you are not treated like a dog in a hospital, you are treated almost as well as in the USA, but for free, which means everyone gets treated well for free, unlike the US.

You then post some pretty poor source saying Castro is a very rich man, he doesn't even own a house.

The thing is, there is alot of poverty in Cuba, life isn't great for alot of people. But what can the Cuban leaders do when the US puts such an outragous blockade on them:
For a third world country, that is a majour sum.
More here

Ah, here we go again, blame everybody but themselves.
Sorry but i believe these sources over your word. That and the real life Cubans i know that fled that dreaded country.
Still stands, that if life was even remotely good or bearable, the government wouldn't be stressed with preventing exodus and would open its borders and allow free speech and media (whats there to fear?)
Go ask Eastern Germans how wonderful communism was, hmm perhaps they build that giant wall because they wanted to block their wonderful view from Western Germany... hmm
As for Third World, yes Cuba is third world, funny that they didn't start out third world, but became it, hmmm, all because of the blockade? come on who are you kidding..

As for the hygienes guy who says that isn't a problem in hospitals. Go read up on Hospital deaths dingdong, a good portion of people in Hospitals don't die what they came in for: they die of complications...
This can be anything, ranging from blood blobs generated due to lying in the same position for too long, to intubation damaging the throat, causing infection or lung disorders, to hygiene issues that cause infections which can lead to death.

O, and price is not stopping Dutch and as far as i know British people from going to the hospital, and it sure as hell isn't preventing Americans from medical treatment.
If the US government would implement a forced insurance system like in most European countries -> bam, problem solved.
In NL you get the poorest bums in the street getting CT scans and what not, cause the insurance agencies pay for it, and they don't complain since: either you, your business or the government pay a nice monthly bill.

 

[Solaris]

I'm talking about the whole 'red to the bone' thing. Doesn't that seem a bit... asinine to you? No decent medical treatment unless you contour to some other persons political beliefs. Though I can't expect you to have too much outrage against that in this situation, since those political beliefs mirror your own, as you've already made it clear that the guy is an Idol or something to you.

I'm not defending whats been reported. I think everyone should be provided with quality healthcare for free, provided by the state, regardless of political affiliation. Unlike American leaders may I add.

I'm not sure how much of what you posted is the fault of Chavez, or how true and widespread it is. The source doesn't have that great a reputation.

 

[kirovman]

What's unacceptable is taxing your citizens working overseas.

I'm talking about you, USA.

 

[Raziaar]

but despite your protestation over conditions in venezuela raziaar the fact is that you are unable to recieve medical care despite living in one of the richest countries in the world ...over 45 million americans are uninsured ..so it really doesnt matter how sophisticated you are if a big chunk of the population has no access to it

I make no claims of defending America's health care system. I have complained about it numerous times on these forums, because I am one of those people who cannot receive it easily. One reason I voted the way I did this year, and will be during presidential election... because I want to see health care more accessible to people like myself.

Oh and Stern. I don't think I have been complaining about sophistication, I have been complaining about sanitary conditions. Sanitation is just common sense and thought for the well being of your patient base... not sophistication.

I'm not sure how much of what you posted is the fault of Chavez, or how true and widespread it is. The source doesn't have that great a reputation.

We've been hearing the very same sorts of things from our very own Venezuelan resident, RJMC. I wouldn't dismiss it so easily.

 

[Solaris]

Ah, here we go again, blame everybody but themselves.

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Sorry but i believe these sources over your word.

It's not my word, its in sources from the WHO posted earlier by Dandaman.

Still stands, that if life was even remotely good or bearable, the government wouldn't be stressed with preventing exodus and would open its borders

It's not Castros fault Cubas poor. A large responcability lies with the US for its blockade that has caused so much economic damage.

Go ask Eastern Germans how wonderful communism was, hmm perhaps they build that giant wall because they wanted to block their wonderful view from Western Germany... hmm

I do not support the Soviet Union, The soviet Union was not communist, Lennin said that from the start.

As for Third World, yes Cuba is third world, funny that they didn't start out third world, but became it, hmmm, all because of the blockade? come on who are you kidding..

It's a poor country with little valuable resources, and to further that the USA tries to destroy it through economic sanctions and whatnot.

You know, alot of people say the Cuban health system is so bad then why does it get so many health tourists?

In 2002 more than 5000 foreign patients travelled to Cuba for a wide range of treatments including eye-surgery, neurological disorders such as multiple sclerosis and Parkinsons disease, and orthopaedics. Most patients are from Latin America although medical treatment for retinitis pigmentosa, often known as night blindness, has attracted many patients from Europe and North America. Cuba also successfully exports many medical products, such as vaccines.[45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Cuba#_note-36

 

[kirovman]

I do not support the Soviet Union, The soviet Union was not communist, Lennin said that from the start.

"Communism is Soviet government plus the electrification of the whole country." -Lenin


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