so we had a rock int he shoe that we cant take out

[Solaris]

"Communism is Soviet government plus the electrification of the whole country." -Lenin
?

Lenin himself said that unless teh revolution spread quickly throughout the world, the soviet union would cease to be communist. I've repeatedly said how the 1920's+ Soviet Union was not communist, but state capitalist.

 

[CptStern]

I make no claims of defending America's health care system. I have complained about it numerous times on these forums, because I am one of those people who cannot receive it easily. One reason I voted the way I did this year, and will be during presidential election... because I want to see health care more accessible to people like myself.

Oh and Stern. I don't think I have been complaining about sophistication, I have been complaining about sanitary conditions. Sanitation is just common sense and thought for the well being of your patient base... not sophistication.

yet it's all relative, that's my point ..it may seem unsanitary by western standards but at least 100% of citizens have access. Dont confuse lack of resources with lack of ability ..venezuelan/cuban doctors are just as good as western doctors

 

[Ome_Vince]

?
It's not my word, its in sources from the WHO posted earlier by Dandaman.

hehe, and yet again, need i remind you the WHO doesn't provide any evidence of the quality of the healthcare?
Even DaMan (not Dandaman lol) admitted that.
As i said earlier, the pictures prove at least 1 larger hospital that isn't fit to treat dogs let alone humans

It's not Castros fault Cubas poor. A large responcability lies with the US for its blockade that has caused so much economic damage.

Ahh, here we go again, blame the US. Cuba started out very wealthy, until Fidel came along. Funny since we see similar patterns in Eastern Europe during Communism and the Soviet Union, hmm
Yes, that too was the US's fault that they didnt share their riches.

I do not support the Soviet Union, The soviet Union was not communist, Lennin said that from the start.

Are you kidding me? As far as i remember Lenin pretty much turned what was initially Marxism into communism -> soviet union.
Source plz

It's a poor country with little valuable resources, and to further that the USA tries to destroy it through economic sanctions and whatnot.

Again, don't blame things on the US. It doesn't link to the healthcare point, since in communism you don't need money right

You know, alot of people say the Cuban health system is so bad then why does it get so many health tourists?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Cuba#_note-36

Source to this quote please

 

[Solaris]

hehe, and yet again, need i remind you the WHO doesn't provide any evidence of the quality of the healthcare?
Even DaMan (not Dandaman lol) admitted that.
As i said earlier, the pictures prove at least 1 larger hospital that isn't fit to treat dogs let alone humans

Health Tourists wouldn't come for crap hospitals.

Ahh, here we go again, blame the US. Cuba started out very wealthy, until Fidel came along. Funny since we see similar patterns in Eastern Europe during Communism and the Soviet Union, hmm
Yes, that too was the US's fault that they didnt share their riches.

The wealth of a country is irrelavant to the standard of living of the people.

Are you kidding me? As far as i remember Lenin pretty much turned what was initially Marxism into communism -> soviet union.
Source plz

State Capitalism in Russia

Again, don't blame things on the US. It doesn't link to the healthcare point, since in communism you don't need money right

The government needs weath, America economically strangles cuba, this lack of wealth damages the health care.

Source to this quote please

It's in the quote?

 

[Raziaar]

yet it's all relative, that's my point ..it may seem unsanitary by western standards but at least 100% of citizens have access. Dont confuse lack of resources with lack of ability ..venezuelan/cuban doctors are just as good as western doctors

I don't understand your point though. 'unsanitary by western standards'. Does the fact that it's a western 'standard' make it any more or less unsanitary?

Don't you agree that irregardless of 'standards' of the area, the hospitals need to be cleaned up and regular efforts made to sterilize and keep everything sanitary? Clean health care is something everybody should have, not just health care no matter what the sanitary conditions are. You could go in to get healed, and come out with an infection to received at the medical facility that could be even more serious and deadly than what you had. That even happens in the most sanitary of hospitals... but the chances of that are drastically smaller.

Just because you say it's a 'western standard', does not mean it's something all hospitals should not strive for.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Health Tourists wouldn't come for crap hospitals.

I see no proof for Health Tourists in your quote.

The wealth of a country is irrelavant to the standard of living of the people.

Uhm, are you joking? Why dont you check this list for a second
(Cuba scores 11th out of the 13 listed Caribbean)

State Capitalism in Russia

Your quoting marxists.org????? try and pick a more reliable source please
Do a little research on Lenin and you'll find how he took Marxism, and turned that into the communist party, taking over Russia after the Tsaar.
Also, since we're discussing Lenin and not Stalin, here's what Leninism says:

Leninism refers to various related political and economic theories elaborated by Bolshevik revolutionary leader Vladimir Lenin, and by other theorists who claim to be carrying on Lenin's work. Leninism builds upon and elaborates the ideas of Marxism, and serves as the philosophical basis for Communism and the pre-Stalin government of the Soviet Union.

Source

The government needs weath, America economically strangles cuba, this lack of wealth damages the health care.

Weird, werent you just defending Cuba's amazing healthcare and how wonderful it is compared to the US for instance? How health tourists wouldn't be coming for crap? How Wealth is irrelevant to the living standards?
Contradiction? :smoking:

It's in the quote?

You've quoted diseases, i cant find "Cuba" in any of those articles. My Firefox search function must be broken then lol

All in all, This list, which was linked off wiki gives a nice view on things
Wiki source

 

[CptStern]

I don't understand your point though. 'unsanitary by western standards'. Does the fact that it's a western 'standard' make it any more or less unsanitary?

Don't you agree that irregardless of 'standards' of the area, the hospitals need to be cleaned up and regular efforts made to sterilize and keep everything sanitary? Clean health care is something everybody should have, not just health care no matter what the sanitary conditions are. You could go in to get healed, and come out with an infection to received at the medical facility that could be even more serious and deadly than what you had. That even happens in the most sanitary of hospitals... but the chances of that are drastically smaller.

Just because you say it's a 'western standard', does not mean it's something all hospitals should not strive for.

of course ..however there's a difference between ability and inability

 

[Solaris]

I see no proof for Health Tourists in your quote.

Then read it? It clearly says 5000 health tourists came in 2005.

Your quoting marxists.org????? try and pick a more reliable source please

You don't understand do you, I linked you to a book, its a massive question that alot of people disagree about, its not the sort of point I can make and just post 'The soviet union was not communist: source BBC news"

Do a little research on Lenin and you'll find how he took Marxism, and turned that into the communist party, taking over Russia after the Tsaar.
Also, since we're discussing Lenin and not Stalin, here's what Leninism says:

Source

Yes, lennism dictates that:

Communist Party officials are elected democratically,
Either way, socialism cannot theoretically survive in one poor underdeveloped country alone. Thus, Leninism calls for world revolution in one form or another.

From your source.

Weird, werent you just defending Cuba's amazing healthcare and how wonderful it is compared to the US for instance? How health tourists wouldn't be coming for crap? How Wealth is irrelevant to the living standards?
Contradiction? :smoking:

I never said it was crap, just faults can be blamed on the US partly.

You've quoted diseases, i cant find "Cuba" in any of those articles. My Firefox search function must be broken then lol

All in all, This list, which was linked off wiki gives a nice view on things
Wiki source

You know, alot of people say the Cuban health system is so bad then why does it get so many health tourists? Quote:
In 2002 more than 5000 foreign patients travelled to Cuba for a wide range of treatments including eye-surgery, neurological disorders such as multiple sclerosis and Parkinsons disease, and orthopaedics. Most patients are from Latin America although medical treatment for retinitis pigmentosa, often known as night blindness, has attracted many patients from Europe and North America. Cuba also successfully exports many medical products, such as vaccines.[45]

 

[Raziaar]

If you've got night blindness... you need to eat liver. Preferably human liver or polar bear liver.

:cheese:

 

[DaMaN]

First of all, Ome_Vince is quite right, my name is DaMaN, not Dandaman, nor is Dan part of my name at all. (Though you may call me Dandaman if you really want to. )

hehe, and yet again, need i remind you the WHO doesn't provide any evidence of the quality of the healthcare?
Even DaMan (not Dandaman lol) admitted that.
As i said earlier, the pictures prove at least 1 larger hospital that isn't fit to treat dogs let alone humans

Well, actually I was agreeing with you that the number of hospitals is not directly relational to the quality of healthcare, and that the WHO source stating the number of hospitals did not state any sort of quality.

However, it can be argued that by the source provided previously Cuba's healthcare system exhibits quality results.

First, let us suppose that for the most part, Cuba's healthcare system has remained roughly the same during recent history (and that the statistics on it are accurate and reflect Cuba's current healthcare system). Second, we can presume that poor quality healthcare results in lower standard of living, and thus that good quality healthcare results in higher standard of living (pertaining to medical of course). Conversely, we can suppose that a high standard of living is due to good quality healthcare, and vice-verca.

Now, when compared with the United State's healthcare report, it can be seen that the numbers, while not identical, are remarkably similar to Cuba's. I refer primarially to life expectancy, healthy live expectancy, child mortality and adult mortality, all very good indicators of the quality of life.

United States:
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75.0/80.0
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 67.2/71.3
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 8/7
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 137/81

Cuba:
Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): 75.0/80.0
Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): 67.1/69.5
Child mortality m/f (per 1000): 8/7
Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): 131/85

Hence, it can be seen that the quality of life for people living in Cuba is on par with people living in the United States. And though the US is generally agreed not to have the best healthcare system, their standard of living is considered "good". Therefore, since Cuba's quality of life rivals that of the States, and since a good quality of life can imply good healthcare system, I submit that Cuba's healthcare is of good quality.

I also submit that this good quality is very surprising when one considers the vast differences between the amount of money spent on it by each country, especially with Cuba being under the US blockade.

(I'll deal with comments on the blockade in another post)

 

[DaMaN]

On to the blockade!

Ahh, here we go again, blame the US. Cuba started out very wealthy, until Fidel came along.

Correct, Cuba was very wealthy before Fidel came along. However, this wealth was primarially a result of large amounts of corruption in the Cuban government during the 40's, fueled by post-war revival of US wealth, gambling money, and Havana becomming a center for mafia operations. This was also because the US was legally allowed to interfere in any financial or foreign relations in Cuba (due to the Cuban constitution at that time being written by the US). By 1926 U.S companies owned 60% of the Cuban sugar industry and imported 95% of the total Cuban crop.
In 1952, the US supported the coup by Batista, and supported the coup in 1959 by Fidel, but withdrew support from Fidel only when Fidel initiated land reform, the nationalization of public utilities and the ruthless suppression of corruption, including closing down the gambling industry and evicting the American mafiosi. The US became hostile towards Fidel when he enacted nationalization of U.S. owned companies (to an estimated value of US$1 billion) and the expulsion of many political conservatives with influential friends in the U.S. The Cuban Project was initiated, with it's goal being to "help Cuba overthrow the Communist regime", including its leader Fidel Castro, and aim "for a revolt which can take place in Cuba by October 1962". American policy makers also desired to see "a new government with which the United States can live in peace." Source: U.S., Department of State, FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES 1961-1963, Volume X Cuba, 1961-1962 Washington, DC. And in 1961 the US launched the Bay of Pigs invasion.
In 1961 the US initiated an economic blockade exerting even more pressure on the Cuban government.


Here's the big question:
Why is this kind of pressure being put upon Cuba by the United States?

There are a few possible answers that usually come up in this discussion forum, but the most popular one seems to be something along the lines of: "Fidel is an evil dictator man who took power through a coup and violates the human rights of his subjects and is a breeding ground for terrorism".

Now, there are a couple claims inside this main, broad-reaching one, so it's best to break them down into their constituent parts:

• Dictator: Cuba is currently considered to be a Socialist Republic, and therefore not a dictatorship. According to wikipedia, Cuba is not globally considered to be a dictatorship. Regardless, if one were to claim that Cuba is a dictator, there should be 50-year old blockades on other dictatorship countries.
• Coup: It was already established that Batista took power in a coup. Despite this, the US government supported him. When Fidel took power in a coup, the US government supported him. Regardless, if it is due to the method Fidel took power, there should be blockades on all the countries shown here.
• Human Rights Violator: While there are a number of Human Rights complaints against Cuba, these are mostly filed by the States, and do not take into account the actions the States have taken against Cuba. Also, these are no more than many other countries in the world (some would argue that many of these violations apply to the States), yet none of them have extensive blockades. Batista himself was infamous for his police squads which terrorised and brutalized the Cuban people, but the US supported him.
• Terrorism: There is a large amount of terrorism going either way, though the majority seems directed against Cuba. Cuba maintains that US groups have launched and continues to launch vast amounts of terrorism against Cuba. Of note is Luis Posada Carriles, convicted on many accounts of anti-cuban terrorism. Despite this, the US have granted him refugee status. Another important group is The Cuban Five, jailed by the FBI after uncovering large amounts of evidence of anti-Cuban terrorists working out of Miami. Once again, Batista's police force performed acts of terrorism against Cuban civilians, yet no blockade was raised against him.

(Often, "proof" for opposition to the Cuban government, or of how bad it is, is given by the number of refugees fleeing Cuba. However, what should be noted when making these arguments is the fact that the total number of Cubans deserting are 0.004% of the Cuban population. In addition, nobody talks about the thousands comming from Mexico, nor the fact that Lebanon has more population outside of their country than inside it. The Cuban Consol General stated: "For every one that left, ten remained.")

So, it can be seen that none of these reasons are logical for a blockade to exist against Cuba. They are merely excuses used by the States to criminalize the government of Cuba, while drawing attention away to just how devastating this blockade is.

And just how devastating is it?

The Cuban Assets Control Regulations impose restrictions on imports to the U.S. from Cuba and exports from the U.S. to Cuba (including gifts of goods and cash) and on transactions with Cuba or Cuban nationals, impose a "total freeze" or "block" on Cuban assets and financial dealings with Cuba that enter the U.S. or come under U.S. jurisdiction, and restrict travel to Cuba (subject to certain exceptions and licensing). They also make it illegal for U.S. citizens or permanent residents to purchase Cuban goods for consumption outside the U.S. As of 2006, the Regulations are still in force and are administered by the U.S. Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control. Criminal penalties for violating the embargo range up to ten years in prison, $1 million in corporate fines, and $250,000 in individual fines; civil penalties up to $55,000 per violation may also be imposed.
...
The Cuban government estimates that the total direct economic impact caused to Cuba by the U.S. embargo is $86 billion, including loss of export earnings, additional import costs, limiting the growth of the Cuban economy, and social damage. The U.S. International Trade Commission estimates an ongoing annual loss to U.S. exporters of $1.2 billion. Nevertheless, the embargo had a limited effect on Cuba in its first few decades as the island nation was heavily subsidized by the Soviet Union and the Comecon nations which supplied Cuba with cheap oil, consumer goods, and subsidies. This peaked in the 1980s, when Cuba received around $6 billion per annum. Cuba also was provided with guaranteed export markets for its goods (mainly sugar and nickel), long-term supply and delivery arrangements for Soviet oil and machinery at low prices, and trade credits to support its other trading arrangements.
...
One of the supposed more visible manifestations of the embargo is the low number of modern automobiles on the streets of Cuba. Cuba makes no cars of its own. Non U.S. automakers that might normally be eager to ship vehicles and replacement parts to the island are hampered because of U.S. trade rules. Ships are prohibited from entering U.S. ports for six months after making deliveries to Cuba, thus effectively blocking access to the world's largest automoblie market. Critics of Cuba in the United States blame the transport situation on the failings of Cuba's economic policies.

The United Nations General Assembly has passed a non-binding resolution condemning the embargo every year since 1991. The most recent condemnation took place on November 8, 2006, by a vote of 183-4, with the U.S., Israel, Palau, and the Marshall Islands voting against.

(The reason this is non-binding is because were it attempted to be made binding, it must pass through the security council, of which the US is a member who has veto power. So even though 183 nations have condemned the blockade, that condemnation can be vetoed by the one applying the blockade. Democracy huh?).

Under a blockade of this magnitude, Cuba has managed to survive for 50 years. Even after the collapse of their one major trading partner, the Soviet Union, Cuba is still going strong. And that's damaging to the US/capitalist plans for the world. Because if Cuba can survive and thrive under socialism, that makes other countries pay attention, and perhaps try socialism for themselves.

Cuba's not an extremist state. It just puts a very large value on human rights. The Consol General from Cuba asked us a question at his presentation. He asked:

Do people have the right to healthcare?
Do people have the right to education?
Do people have the right to housing?
Do people have the right to food?
If you say yes, then you're even more of a communist than I am!

Cuba is doing something pretty unique with socialism. They've eliminated illiteracy, eliminated tuition fees, and providing free healthcare. When the Consol General from Cuba visited us here in Vancouver, he said "In the States, they socialize dreams and privatize production. In Cuba, they socialize production and privatize dreams."

I say give them a chance.

 

[Solaris]

Excellant post dan.

 

[SAJ]

Uhm, are you joking? Why dont you check this list for a second
(Cuba scores 11th out of the 13 listed Caribbean)

You're having a laugh right? You're trying to pass off opinion/anecdote as a factual source?

From your link;

This site ranks all the independent countries according to their
living standard.
The rank considers standard data such as political, economical, health and social
situation, incomes, expectancy life, number of doctors, nurses, records of crime,etc.
There is a special note for the countries under dictatorship, war or facing guerrilla activity.
The site World Rank has been created with my personal opinion about the living standard
of the independent countries.
The site is updated every time there is a situation which changes the standard of life
of a particular country, making it better or worse to live in than others.
The situation can be: a civil war, a coup, a heavy flood, a strong drought, a strong
economical crisis due to a bad economical situation, or the opposite:
a strong growth, etc.
The update will be made as soon as the situation will affect the living standard
of the population.
For example, when there is a devaluation of a particular currency the population feels
the bad effects of it late, not at the moment of the devaluation.
The + and the - indicate an improvement or a worsening in the living standard

You undermine both your aguments and the quality of your contribution with this kind of vacuous linkage.

 

[Ome_Vince]

@SaJ
Uhm, dude, another excellent way of cherry picking stuff:
I took the link directly off the wiki page
The list mixes facts into 1 bundle and gives that a grade. I quoted it as a more than interesting list, not that its a fact, because its hard to make a factional number based of mixing political, economical, health and social
situation, incomes, expectancy life, number of doctors, nurses, records of crime,etc.
Please show me how that can ever be factual?

The point being, is that you have to take several things into account when you make a judgment off a society. Thats what the list does really well.


@DaMan,
You see thats why i enjoy talking to you more than Solaris, who jumps all over the place contradicting himself constantly hoping eventually people like you pop up to save him.
Its true the US embargo might have a pretty nasty effect on Cuban economy, yet taking this into a broader perspective you cant really say it would have been a booming or stable country either:

Looking at all other communist nations around they all fell into economical shitholes, eventually having such a low standard of life, that there was an almost exodus forcing these nations to close their borders, and in 1 case even build walls to prevent escape.
In Cuba this is no different. With hundreds of thousands escaping to South America and the US (Miami), many seeking political asylum it tells you something is wrong.

The Cuban governmental system, can hardly be described as "fair" to say the least: its a communism based around the Marxist/Leninist model, where currently:

The Communist Party of Cuba (Spanish: Partido Comunista de Cuba, PCC) is currently the only political party permitted to assemble or engage in any political activity in Cuba.

Your right its not like Stalinism, that pretty much was a hardcore dictatorship, but its still limiting its people in choice. The danger is in the details. They try to disguise international criticism by making it less obvious -> especially the parts on free speech. (more of this later in this post)

Also, its not just "the Americans" that file human rights violations:

Groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have issued reports on Cuban prisoners of conscience.[9] The Cuban government denies the International Committee of the Red Cross access to its prisons and many human rights groups including Amnesty International are denied entry to Cuba.

Source

Also, here is the Wiki page on Human Rights violations in Cuba:
Source

Allow me to quote some highlights:

In 1986 a Tribunal on Cuba was held in Paris to present testimonies by former prisoners of Cuba's penal system to the international media. The gathering was sponsored by Resistance international and The Coalition of Committees for the Rights of Man in Cuba. The testimonies presented at the tribunal, before an international panel, alleged a pattern of torture in Cuba's prisons and "hard labor camps". These included beatings, biological experiments in diet restrictions, violent interrogations and extremely unsanitary conditions. The jury concurred with allegations of arbitrary arrests; sentencing by court martial with neither public audience nor defense; periods in hard labour camps without sufficient food, clothes and medical care; and the arrests of children over nine years old. [14]

We're assaulting the Americans on Guantanamo Bay, but it seems Cuba is the king in that part of the world..

Its also pretty funny Cuba allows Freedom of Expression, except if its:

"Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society. Material conditions for the exercise of that right are provided by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema, and other mass media are state or social property and can never be private property. This assures their use at exclusive service of the working people and in the interests of society. The law regulated the exercise of those freedoms."

Human rights in Cuba

Article 62 of the Cuban constitution states:

Human rights in Cuba
"None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law."

The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights assess that: "It is evident that the exercise of the right to freedom of expression under this article of the Constitution is governed by two fundamental determinants: on the one hand, the preservation and strengthening of the communist State; on the other, the need to muzzle any criticism of the group in power."[15] Human rights group Amnesty International assert that the universal state ownership of the media means that freedom of expression is restricted. Thus the exercise of the right to freedom of expression is restricted by the lack of means of mass communication falling outside state control.[16] Human Rights Watch states: "Refusing to recognize human rights monitoring as a legitimate activity, the government denies legal status to local human rights groups. Individuals who belong to these groups face systematic harassment, with the government putting up obstacles to impede them from documenting human rights conditions. In addition, international human rights groups such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are barred from sending fact-finding missions to Cuba. It remains one of the few countries in the world to deny the International Committee of the Red Cross access to its prisons."[3]

A Reporters Without Borders report finds that Internet use is very restricted and under tight surveillance. Access is only possible with government permission and equipment is rationed. E-mail is monitored.

In short: you have freedom of speech, as long as its not negative towards the government, leaders or its system. You see? the danger is in the details.

Also, this is interesting:

Citizens cannot leave or return to Cuba without first obtaining official permission, which is often denied. Unauthorized travel can result in criminal prosecution.

Cubans cannot leave Cuba, unless they get official permission. Can you see the irony in that? No wonder so many try to flee.

And it goes on and on and on and on and on.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Chavez is the democratically elect president of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. Sad, but true.

Voters can be threatened or intimidated -- that much we know is true.

 

[Ome_Vince]

heh, yup:

They released a video that showed energy minister and head of PDVSA, Rafael Ramírez, telling state oil workers to back President Hugo Chávez or to leave their jobs. He also said PDVSA is red "from top to bottom"(PDVSA es roja, rojita de arriba abajo). He also said that PDVSA's "workers are with this revolution, and those who aren't should go somewhere else. Go to Miami". Opposition media outlets have been repeating the 14-minute video over and over again. President Chávez said he supported the PDVSA director and recommended him to make the same speech to oil workers 100 times a day.[63]

Source

 

[GhostBoi]

Voters can be threatened or intimidated -- that much we know is true.

Voters are threatened and intimidated in almost ever single election in every nation, I doubt Venezuela is really any worse.

 

[DaMaN]

@DaMan,
You see thats why i enjoy talking to you more than Solaris, who jumps all over the place contradicting himself constantly hoping eventually people like you pop up to save him.

http://charmaineyoest.com/uploads/Mighty_mouse2.jpg

I enjoy talking to you Ome_Vince; though at times your capitalist anti-cuban ways get annoying. (Just kidding)

Its true the US embargo might have a pretty nasty effect on Cuban economy, yet taking this into a broader perspective you cant really say it would have been a booming or stable country either.

Looking at all other communist nations around they all fell into economical shitholes, eventually having such a low standard of life, that there was an almost exodus forcing these nations to close their borders, and in 1 case even build walls to prevent escape.

Not all communist/socialist republic countries have fallen into "economical shitholes": China, for instance, while seriously screwed up, is certainly not a shithole economically. . It also should be noted that a lot of communist countries have come under collossal pressure from capitalist nations (namely the US).

Main point: What you are essentially saying with this comment is that: "Most other communist countries have fallen into economical shitholes, so it's no surprise that Cuba is not doing so well under a cruel and ruthless blockade".

Under the blockade, it seems highly unlikely that any type of government could keep itself out of an "economic shithole".
The Helms-Burton Act of 1996:

This law states, among other things, that any non-U.S. company that "knowingly traffics in property in Cuba confiscated without compensation from a U.S. person" can be subjected to litigation and that company's leadership can be barred from entry into the United States. Effectively, this covers any transactions with Cuba, since everything is in some way connected to something that was confiscated in the late 1950s. Sanctions may also be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. As a result, multinational companies have to choose between Cuba and the U.S., the latter being a much larger market. This restriction also applies to maritime shipping, as ships docking at Cuban ports are not allowed to dock at U.S. ports for six months.

No form of government could do well under that sort of pressure.

In Cuba this is no different. With hundreds of thousands escaping to South America and the US (Miami), many seeking political asylum it tells you something is wrong.

I addressed this last post:

Voters can be threatened or intimidated -- that much we know is true.

58% of the voters?

 

[zleppelin]

This is one UGLY political discussion. I better stay out of it. Not sure what the future of Venezuela has to do with Cuba though. Last time I checked, socialism was not the same as communism, though it is a step in that direction.

 

[Ome_Vince]

http://charmaineyoest.com/uploads/Mighty_mouse2.jpg

I enjoy talking to you Ome_Vince; though at times your capitalist anti-cuban ways get annoying. (Just kidding)

....

Hehe, well i don't know if you've read my opinion on which society i support, but let me explain it:
I support capitalism, but with a good socialist base. Most of Europe is just a little to socialist, but its almost there.

Chavez hasn't done anything terrible yet, but i can see where this is going, the signs are there.
Cuba, on the other hand, is something i disapprove of, just as I dislike all communist "implementations" to date.
I think the ideal is great, but in reality it has always slipped into abuse, oppression and whatnot.
Cuba is no different. It might be less worse than the Soviet Union or Eastern Europe, but it shows the same signs: human rights abuse, political prisoners, 1 party system, no freedom of speech vs the current system, no freedom of movement -> Cubans cant leave the country unless they get official approval of the government (which they wont get).
All leads into mass amounts of people fleeing the country.

Now let me summerize the points made in our discussion and my thoughts on them:

Exodus
Your saying i cant use the exodus from the Soviet Union resulting in the building of a wall, or Cuba resulting in freedom of movement being shut off because the majority stays?
I find that a bad argument. If there's a large % of crime, i cant brush that off by saying: "well the majority dont steal and kill so there is no problem".
In contrary to what may seem, fleeing your country is an enormous step. You leave all friends and family behind, your culture and pretty much "betray" your society, trading it for the unknown.
Little people do that unless they are desperate financially or are hunted politically.
Its also not a very cheap way, so even though many poor people flee, they generally trade everything they have for that boat ride to Miami.
Now on top of those standard reasons why not to flee, the Cuban government has forcefully blocked Cubans from leaving. Leaving Cuba unauthorized can result in jail time.
Thousands flee Cuba each year, so picture how desperate that is, and how many would flee if they had the guts and above all the means to.
The fact that many flee indicate theres a problem in that country, a big problem. The fact that all communist countries i can think of have forcefully locked their borders indicates to me the implementation of communism to date simply doesn't work, or leads to oppression too often.

Economy
All communist states I can think of are economic shitholes. The reason China is starting to fall out of this category, is because it is becoming a capitalism. A pure dictatorship and capitalism.
What i mean with this argument is, capitalism generally thrives society to economic growth, while communism generally drives countries down the drain.
I judge this by looking at the examples at hand, including China for that matter.

Dictatorship
What are the signs of a governmental dictatorship? Reduced to little freedoms, and little to no political choice (you can chose between commie 1 or commie 2, and 50% is automatically assigned by the government -> not a very big choice aye In the US you have 2 parties, but Americans can vote for whatever they want. The 2 party system is not forced, which is the major difference).
Now i grant you Fidel is no Saddam or Hitler, by far not. But Amnesty International has pages on Cuban political prisoners, prisoners of conscience, and what not.
By law you have freedom of speech unless its against the government system and its party.
Fidel has been risen to god-level, everywhere in Cuba posters of him and Che hang around. Its almost as ego-driven as Hitler, Stalin or any other suffering from megalomania.
Your friends told you there is a rap group being sponsored moving around criticizing the government?
Thats a little hard to believe On top of that its against the law there.

Responsible, who's to blame
While much criticism can be passed onto the USA for the blockade, you cant brush off this human rights "disaster" blaming the US.
Let me give you an example:
As a direct result of the economical devastation inflicted by the French, British and Americans on the Germans in the '20's they paved the way for Hitler to rise.
Their confiscating of Germany's natural resources and economical depths put Germans literally into a shit hole.
Yet.. even though that can be considered a mistake, Hitler and the Germans were responsible for their actions, their atrocities with the eventual collapse of the 3e Reich taking millions with them.
World War 1 was responsible for Communism to take over from the Tsaar, after Leninism ruled, Stalin came and changed it resulting into the deaths of millions and millions of innocent Russians who were most likely political prisoners.

Fidel, is responsible for the atrocities and mass human rights abuse in Cuba, just as Bush is responsible for his in Iraq and Stalin+Hitler for theirs.
We cant blame the US for Fidel's policy in Cuba, their system, or any other failing/failed communist country/system.
The US didn't make Cuba jail its political prisoners, or prisoners of conscience or people who tried to flee the country along with anybody else they want to throw in jail.

We also cant brush off the current Cuban governments policies, intolerance and abuse as "well, the US isn't doing much better etc"
We're discussing Cuba, not the US. I'm Dutch and not American, and I live in Holland so if you do wish to compare it compare it to Holland (i also don't watch US TV so I'm not "indoctrinated" if thats what your aiming at ).

The US is already getting mass criticism which they deserve in many occasions due to the faults of Iraq and much of their foreign policy.
Luckily for the US, because its a democracy Democrats will probably get voted in, and change policy.
Can we say the same for any communist country out there?
No.. fled Cubans in Miami need to wait before Fidel dies, then they might hopefully return to their homeland.
Lets not put on blindfolds to other nations acts of disgust just because the US did this, and the US did that.


You know, one of the things thats bugged me a lot when debating extreme socialists/leftists in real life (I'm not expecting you to be like this, but just giving an example), is that in many of the cases, they feel the need to defend Fidel/Cuba, just because he originates from a "similar" political wing => meaning because Cuba is a socialist/Marxist state, they feel the need to defend it.
I disagree with this, and hope this isn't the case with the people on this forum who are defending Cuba's system.
Its not black&white, so I don't go following "US Propaganda", I've based my opinion on what I've read on Cuba, documentaries, books, wiki and the fled Cubans I know in real life.

To summarize this, Cuba might have ideals that I and many support, but its implementation with its political human rights problems cannot be seen as good or should be supported, whether your right, centrist or left winged.
Meaning you could still be a leftist and dislike the Cuban system...

 

[hari66]

sorry...double posted.

 

[hari66]

Raziaar, sorry i took so long to respond to your post, couldnt log in for a couple of days.Did anybody else have the same problem?

Fact of the matter is... keeping hospitals clean and sanitary is NOT that expensive... It's mostly due to neglect that hospitals become so filthy

Really,its not that expensive? So how come even developed countries have HAI?
If you read the article you have quoted ,it mentions that less than a third of HAI can be prevented.What about the rest,I wonder!!

Just goes to show you what little you know about hospital acquired infections(HAI),Raziaar!

It is not just neglect that keeps hospitals untidy, there are several other more important things, but of course you wouldnt be bothered about them, i am sure!

"Ohhh... well. Keeping the hospital clean and as free of disease as possible costs money, and that cost is passed on to the patient. SO **** SANITARY CONDITIONS."

So thats what health care planners in poor countries think, no wonder hospitals are untidy, right?
How juvenile can you get?!

Do you know how an infection works? Do you know how infections are spread to patients from doctors and other patients and the environment they work in?

Yes I do, perhaps much more than you imagine.
What about you , treated or healed anyone "Ravaged"(as you so colorfully described) by a hospital acquired infection lately?

Why do you approve of unhealthy hospital conditions to save money... when all the serious and deadly infections that can be had in those conditions.

I never said that i approve of these conditions to save money....you didnt read my post clearly enough. What i said was that in resource limited conditions,poor countries are likely to open healthcare facilities with whatever minimum equipment they have.If such low cost hospitals save lives, well and good.There is no point in shutting these down and starving the population of healthcare.

Since you have quoted about MRSA, let me ask you a question.What is the relative incidence(frequency) of MRSA infections versus lets say typhoid , in Venezuela.Thats where all this started ,wasnt it? If you have that figure, which problem would you think the health care planners would focus more on.?

And by the way, when you are quoting something medical, its a good idea not to quote from news websites or newspapers.....Such material is considered "anecdotal" by the medical community.

I don't see why anybody in their right mind, wouldn't be outraged by dirty hospital conditions in a free healthcare society. Free healthcare may mean reduced quality of healthcare... but it should NOT mean negligence in caring for the hospitals cleanliness.

Nice preaching,mate.I can almost feel your "just anger" . but get real

CptStern

most autoclaves/sterilizers are in the hundreds of dollars ..they're affordable for most clinics/private practices so infection really isnt an issue when it comes to performing medical services (I know because my company ships autoclaves across the globe ..mostly to 3rd world countries) ..and chemosterilant is dirt cheap (disinfecting solution) ..the number one problem with healthcare in 3rd world countries is the lack of big ticket items like monitoring/dianostic tools, MRA/MRI machines, ekg machines etc

..it's not like they're delivering babies by candle light/cutting umbilical chords with pen knives like they are in iraq

CptStern, you hit the nail on the head , as always! Thumbs up!

 

[Raziaar]

Really,its not that expensive? So how come even developed countries have HAI?
If you read the article you have quoted ,it mentions that less than a third of HAI can be prevented.What about the rest,I wonder!!

Compared to the amount of money being paid for by the governments to administer free healthcare to the populace, keeping the hospitals decently and respectably clean isn't that expensive. Especially when the easier transfer of infections in a dirty hospital costs the government even more money to treat said infections.

Also... I never said that developed countries don't have hospital acquired infections, did I? Infections are a serious matter, and causes many deaths. If countries with clean and generally sterile hospitals like the united states and others that keep their medical facilities in such a state can only prevent a certain number of infections... how high do you think the number climbs with those that don't meet a certain sanitary level? The fact is... there's going to be FAR more preventable infections in a dirty environment, than there is a clean one.

Do you honestly believe that just because those numbers exist in the USA and other well developed countries, they won't be higher in those less developed and with dirtier hospital conditions?

Just goes to show you what little you know about hospital acquired infections(HAI),Raziaar!

I certainly know alot more than you! You seem to be under the impression that a dirty hospital either makes no difference to the number of hospital acquired infections, or that governments with free health care cannot afford to put money into keeping them cleaner.

It is not just neglect that keeps hospitals untidy, there are several other more important things, but of course you wouldnt be bothered about them, i am sure!

Yes... it IS just neglect that keeps hospitals untidy. If you don't sanitize and clean hospitals... they will degrade in quality. As far as governments not having enough money to afford cleanup, I'll get to that in a second.

But... I would like to hear these 'other' more important things that keep hospitals untidy. I am very interested to hear what you have to say. So please... go on and tell me, rather than just assuming I can't be bothered to hear or care about them.

So thats what health care planners in poor countries think, no wonder hospitals are untidy, right?
How juvenile can you get?!

Obviously it was sarcasm, because I have to deal with your "I know everything without looking at the facts" attitude.

And how Juvenile? Let's take a look at a comment of yours in your first response to me, shall we?

you dont know what the **** you are talking about, so kindly keep off subjects you dont know anything about.

That's a little less than mature, don't you think?

Yes I do, perhaps much more than you imagine.
What about you , treated or healed anyone "Ravaged"(as you so colorfully described) by a hospital acquired infection lately?

Oh you do? Well go on and tell me. No, I haven't treated or healed anybody affected by hospital acquired infections. Do you know why? I'm not a doctor or nurse.

However, that doesn't stop me from knowing that statistically, the death rates of those who acquire infections in hospitals are many times higher. And this is in relatively sanitary hospitals where staff do the best they can to keep patients alive and infection free!

As far as ravaged? Do you deny the serious implications of an infection in a hospitalized patient, one that enters their system during their stay? Sick people have a dramatically crippled immune system, and depending on what they are infected with, can do their damage much more easily than normal.

I never said that i approve of these conditions to save money....you didnt read my post clearly enough. What i said was that in resource limited conditions,poor countries are likely to open healthcare facilities with whatever minimum equipment they have.If such low cost hospitals save lives, well and good.There is no point in shutting these down and starving the population of healthcare.

You're telling me that a country that can open health care facilities to their citizens for free, doesn't have the money to keep the hospital at an adequately healthy level? Treating patients is incredibly expensive, especially when the government receives NO compensation for their treatments. That means the costs of everything is on the shoulders of the government. That includes the extremely expensive costs of caring for infected people who contracted their sickness in the hospital. You treat them for whatever they had, paying for the materials... and then you continue to treat them for what they acquired when there.

If you don't thing the costs are that expensive... take a look at this report.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/111-11142006-741927.html

Then after reading that report(which is legitimate and official by the way!), read this accompanying article. It goes into more specific details that I cannot. Take into consideration this is for Pennsylvania... and represents united states healthcare, which isn't free. Meaning that costs similar but in smaller scale(once you eliminate the artifical charges) to these need to be picked up by the government of third and second world countries who provide free health care. Look at the costs of infected patients to the state versus uninfected patients. See the incredible expenses there? Yes, the charges are inflated there, but even when you scale it down to avoid that, and charge based on the medication required to treat... it's ALOT of money.

You can't look at those expenses and tell me a chunk of the money that is paid treating them, shouldn't be used to instead prevent all that cost by sanitizing the hospitals with more care. It's overwhelming my friend. The cost of keeping a hospital clean so patients don't acquire infections that could of otherwise be prevented, is very cheap in comparison.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15726976/

For your consideration, I'll quote a few blurbs that mirror the information from official sources.

The Pennsylvania Health Care Cost Containment Council report released Tuesday details information on roughly 2 million hospital patients last year. It found 19,154 patients ? about one in every 100 ? contracted infections during Pennsylvania hospital stays, resulting in almost 400,000 hospital days at a cost of $3.5 billion. The death rates among infection patients were more than six times higher than others.

Yes... that's with hospital conditions at a vastly healthier level than you'll find down in venezuela. Like I said before, even if you reduce the inflation there, you're left with ALOT in expenses.

Infections resulting from poor hospital practices or procedures are considered among the costliest and deadliest U.S. public health problems. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that as many as 2 million infections are acquired in hospitals each year, resulting in 90,000 deaths.

You don't think any of this applies to hospitals in other places of the world? Or at an increased severity?

There is no point in shutting these down and starving the population of healthcare.

Show me where I said to have these places shut down simply because they aren't more sanitary. I said nothing of the sort, so do not imply that I have. I have been saying that there can be more done, and feasibly, to increase the health levels of these hospitals.

Since you have quoted about MRSA, let me ask you a question.What is the relative incidence(frequency) of MRSA infections versus lets say typhoid , in Venezuela.Thats where all this started ,wasnt it? If you have that figure, which problem would you think the health care planners would focus more on.?

I'm glad you mention Typhoid. You can get immunization shots for Typhoid. If you do some research, you can see that an immunization shot compared to the cost of treating Typhoid is drastic. It's also a perfect example because Typhoid is transfered in a large way due to unsanitary conditions. The cost of treating it is MANY, MANY times more expensive. So using that logic, prevention leads to reduced expenses. Genius in the way that works... because you can do the same thing to preventing MRSA, which is only one of the infections you can acquire while in even a sanitary hospital. MRSA superbugs are no laughing matter... patients are at a vastly increased risk of dying, which not only adds a monetary cost to hospitals, but the cost of someone losing their life, too.

You can't possibly look at this and tell me that MRSA should be ignored while Typhoid is treated only after contracted.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heic/ID/mrsa/

Going on your question... What is the frequency comparison? I don't know the answer to that... but what about the severity?

Typhoid Fever has a death rate of... 10-30% I believe. This is comparable to MRSA. Even though the overall numbers of infections cannot rival Typhoid Fever, doesn't mean it should be ignored. The costs of treating MRSA vs preventative measures... are immeasurable. And what you pay to prevent MRSA, you also do a great deal of preventing other infection risks.

And by the way, when you are quoting something medical, its a good idea not to quote from news websites or newspapers.....Such material is considered "anecdotal" by the medical community.

I've yet to see you provide any medical information at all to contradict and disprove what I've been saying.

Nice preaching,mate.I can almost feel your "just anger" . but get real

Preaching... I'm passionate enough about it to actually go out there and research it, and provide what I find. You haven't done that at all... you have just sat there and 'preached' how wrong and stupid I am for my thoughts, without providing ANY sorts of medical and financial information to back up your claims.

CptStern, you hit the nail on the head , as always! Thumbs up!

But what he says doesn't nail my coffin shut in regards to what your argument with me is.

I haven't just been talking just about equipment sterilization... I have primarily been talking about overall hospital sterilization... with clean and sanitary hospital rooms(furniture).




Venezuela is a significantly wealthy country due to it's oil... why is so much of it's population living in poverty, and why is so little money being spent to improve the care of those who have hospital stays? Chavez is spending some money, but in his eight years, not enough has been done to truely bring it up to a level where it could be.

Why isn't more money being spent to prevent diseases, when the cost of prevention is cheaper than the cost of treatment?

Hospital caused deaths are a serious problem even in the united states due to uncleanliness... why shouldn't they be in other countries?

 

[hari66]

you dont know what the **** you are talking about,

I unconditionally apologize for that.I didnt mean to offend you in any way,i dont know what came over me .You told me you were passionte about this.So am i.Sorry for blowing my top.
I just got mad because you seemed to equate poor conditions to HAI. Do you know that you can suture a wound in the middle of the road without it getting infected, if you do it with care? Hospital acquired infections are the same as accidents. You can get a severe HAI if the intern just forgets to wipe down your vein before placing an IV access, or placing a urinary catheter, or even swapping a fresh iv fluid.Such stuff often happens due to either haste,ignorance or poor training.It can occur in the best ER's.What has government funding to do with all these things? YOu want chavez to watch over the shoulder of verey intern?Can more money ensure that an infections do not occur in this way? Training would.

You compared typhoid and MRSA.I agree that MRSA infections are much more dangerous than typhoid... in fact, much more than you stated. But my point is, typhoid cases far outnumber MRSA infections in such countries, so is it any wonder that they take the former more seriously than the latter?. The cost of managing common diseases far outstrips cost of treating HAI's ,just because of the sheer volume of patients.Often in hospital meetings, if there is money to buy some equipment and you got to choose between a new incinerator and a new ventilator, you know which will be automatically chosen!
You also talked about typhoid shots.I agree that all of us would like to be vaccinated against all bugs under the sun , but it is impractible. Even the WHO does not include the typhoid vaccine in its Universal Programme For Immunisation.Typhoid is not contacted from hospitals, but due to poor water and food standards.
I am not a prophet for dirty hospitals.My dream is for all hospitals to have gleaming marble floors, polished tile walls and not a scrap of cotton swab on the floor{mind you, one look at the innards of some of even these fancy ones will make you forget lunch for a couple of days)...unfortunately I am sure it will remain a dream for quite some time to come.In the meantime,countries with poor resource will have to manage with the ones they have.
i quoted stern
.

they're affordable for most clinics/private practices so infection really isnt an issue when it comes to performing medical services

because he rightly pointed out that even dilapidated hospitals have stuff like autoclaves. You can even use a pressure cooker,i've heard!

 

[Raziaar]

Then we can agree that we both want to see change, for the better, eventually as it can happen. I still think some governments aren't spending all the money they could or should on proper free health care for people.

I'm especially upset about the American System. I once got an ear infection a few years ago, and it wasn't getting better with the various things I tried. It eventually got SO bad after I thought it was going to get better, that I was facing hearing loss. I still think I have some from it, as I have a greater difficulty hearing and understanding things now than I used to. Anyways... it got so bad, that I had to go into the emergency room on a weekend night. The emergency room wasn't crowded at all... but after all was said in done, they put a thing in my ear to keep it open, gave me some medication and prescribed me some antibiotics. The antibiotics cost upwards of 100 dollars or so at the pharmacy.

On top of that charge, the bill that came back with my dad's insurance(which was apparently not that great)... amounted to 700 dollars after what the insurance company was willing to pay. 700 dollars for an ear infection. Money we really didn't have at the time. And you know what? We sent them the money, and apparently they screwed up and didn't receive 200 dollars of it. So they've been hounding me personally(I was a minor at the time, an adult now) to pay back the 200 dollars. I refused to pay... and so now it will go on my credit report, and mar it for about 7 years or so I think.

I have no faith in the American health care system... and I have little faith in doctors after that experience. They perform a valuable service to the community, but not at the costs they charge for us who cannot afford it even with the crappy insurance we may get with our jobs.

Here's some posts of mine where I've bitched about it over the years.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=961595&postcount=5

How do you know he's lying? He very well could not be. I've heard from many sources that canada has great healthcare... its just sometimes the system takes a long time, and so some people are forced to opt to pay heavy prices for it in the states for more immediate service.

So before you say somebody is full of shit, just think to yourself that these things might be different on case by case basis. I've seen no reason not to believe that he indeed has a very sick relative.

And just FYI, i'm against the american medical system right now. I loathe doctors. I got charged 700 bucks for an ear infection when they just gave me a little ear splint thing inside the ear and some medicine and prescriptions(which cost extra money at walgreens)

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1222344&postcount=3

I agree. Our medical bills and stuff can be so ****ing expensive for the smallest things, much less life threatening injuries or illnesses that need to be treated.

I went in for an ear infection a year ago or so, and was billed, TWICE mind you, for a grand total of about 800 dollars. The doctor urged me to come in, so they could remove the ear piece thing, and check on it, and they ****ing took the initiative to charge me a second time for coming in like that, for a couple hundred bucks to remove a god damn ear splint or whatever it was called.

Disgusting. After that experience, I hate our medical system.



EDIT: Granted, it was on a weekend night, in the emergency room(because my ear had gotten so bad, I needed medical attention. Normal ear medicine wasn't working, needed antibiotics, and couldn't bear to wait until the weekday). However, the hospital was almost devoid of patients, yet I still got stuck with such a huge bill for such a small problem. Why? Simply because they can. Awful.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1967177&postcount=1

Our beloved Collection Agencies

Obviously the title is bullshit.

Anyways, I wanted to make this thread for us to share our universal LOVE... otherwise known as HATEHATEHATE, for credit collection agencies. This was inspired by the constant bombarding of calls i'm recieving from one particular one called West Asset Management.

If you remember a while back, I had a problem with a really bad ear infection, and had to go to the hospital to get some antibiotics(god, why can't I just get it without paying a fortune?), and total it cost me around 700 dollars. Apparently whatever the medical company was, never filed the insurance paperwork, and so after we eventually did not pay a debt until we were aware we owed for a couple years, it was passed on to a collection agency. Now this collection agency is still saying we owe them around 200 dollars.

Which is absolute bullshit. Although I can say, "Fine, we do owe you 200 dollars". In order to be sure of the ACCURACY of this statement, I request that they provide me actual documentation proof detailing the fact that we owe them this amount of money. In their dubious ways, they keep saying they have sent us the paperwork telling us. Yeah... they sent it to us alright, they sent us paperwork telling us to give them money. Right. Like i'm going to trust that alone. I need actual legitimate legal documentation, stupid! The law is on my side. I ask these dumbasses what FDCPA means and they can't tell me. But the stupid thing about all this, even if I can resolve it, I can't erase that stain on my credit report for 7 years or so. Though... I don't use credit for anything anyways... at least I haven't yet. I have a philosophy in life that tells me to stay away from credit cards, generally.

Anyways... please feel free to a bitch s about s your a encounters s with s collection i agencies n and a how you t hate e them.

So as you can see... I've had a grudge against it for a long time.

 

[zleppelin]

DaMaN, are you a history major?

 

[Xeom]

I decided to make a account just for this post.Becuase i feel quite strongly about it.

I am Cuban,but luckily I was born in america.Not to say I am not proud of being cuban.I am in fact very proud of my heritage.But i am also disappointed in cubas government.

I haven't really read many of the links(2am) here.But ill try and show you things the way i do.Cuba boast things like having health benefits for everyone and housing for almost all its people.But really it about equals to having a infection on your arm and instead of curing it they cut it off.

Living conditions are quite shit,Several generations living in 1 broke down house.Most house holds don't have any working appliances.And those that do usually get it from family that live in america.Back before the US steeped i know my family and friends of my family would always take trips to cuba.While visiting they would take all kinds of things, clothing, Appliances, and guess what,medicine too.I know almost everybody who still had some kind of family back in Cuba always sent at least 50 USD per month to them.These are the family's that are of course better off.A lot of the living in Cuba is ofc done under the table.Need a little something? Trade with a neighboor.Low on cash better call up the family in Florida.

The barber shop where i normally get my hair cut is mostly Cuban staff,with mostly Hispanic customers.I've heard a lot of good things about Cuba there of course.The culture the people how great the beach's and forest are.But not once have i ever heard anyone mention anything remotely good about the government.You might argue that all these people are refugees and the would obviously never say anything good about the government.

But from all the people ive talked to not even 1 has mentioned anything good about. I mean there at least has to be 1 guy that thought it was mostly allright. But there were just a few things he couldn't take. Well i have yet to meet that person. I am reminded of this one story,a lady in her mid 30's who had to come over because she couldn't take her kids begging her for food anymore. She commented that life for her was fine hardly any work and just partying. But she just couldn't take living in those conditions anymore.

Everything in Cuba(media) is communist propaganda. Always praising Fidel and always smacking america. America is blamed for all there problems. This was also going on before America stepped in so heavily(my dad was still a boy).And ofc everybody knows about not having no actual freedom,lets not even mention freedom of speech.

Of course i may be a bit baised. My family being pure refugees and hell my grandfather was arrested for several years because he refused to put up some Castro propaganda. But here's the thing the solution to poverty is not to make everyone poor.

And to those of you that seem to defend Cuba so much why not move there?Enjoy those great health benefits?Its very easy to defend it when you don't have to live that way. And no its not Americas fault,living conditions have always been as horrid.

And the way i see it if Chavez gets his way it wont be long till Venezuela end up the same way.

PS:If there are any grammatical mistakes please excuse I'm quite tired and about to get some sleep.

 

[Sparta]

Great post Xeom, and welcome to the forums.

 

[zleppelin]

And the way i see it if Chavez gets his way it wont be long till Venezuela end up the same way.

Intersting post Xeom. I doubt Venezuela will ever end up like Cuba though. Venezuela has oil. Cuba has sugar canes...

 

[Flyingdebris]

hey Xeom, nice to see a fellow poster of cuban decent, i was beginning to think i was the only one here.

Everything you said was right on the money.

The only cubans that are in support of castro are the ones on his payroll, nothing more, nothing less.

In south florida, most of the elderly cubans that still remember the real cuba use the word "communista' as a very powerful insult, and i believe rightfully so.