So, who is going to see Fahrenheit 911?

[Pressure]

(Plus I want to see Moore driving round in an ice-cream van)

I want to see Moore get hit by an Ice-Cream Van going extremely high speeds.

 

[Venmoch]

Which brings me to another point.

Do you Americans get a large amount of political satire? (Please note not attempting to be insulting.)

Because in the UK theres a healthy amount of it. In fact I remember a program (2DTV) got told by the White House to stop giving the idea that President Bush was stupid...

Which they then replied to in their own way....

 

[CptStern]

Michael Moore can die for all I care. It's more of a ****ing fiction movie than anything else. I can't stand him, if he hates this country so much then why doesn't he go to France or some other country.

I just think its ****ing sad when we allow movies to degrade our President(s) like this. It is utterly horrible to see this actually published, Disney was going to do it first then saw it, as you see they turned it down. Michael Moore has pushed it to the limits, he should start hiding soon before the secret service kill his dumbass.

for making a documentary? isnt that what saddam the US accused saddam of doing? kill anyone that spoke out against the government? Even in a quasi-democracy there's still freedom of speech

btw have you watched any of Moore's documentaries, read his books/articles or are you just basing your hate on ignorance and misguided patriotism?

Senator McCarthy would be pround of you two uber-patriots

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

btw have you watched any of Moore's documentaries, read his books/articles or are you just basing your hate on ignorance and misguided patriotism?

No, I've seen bowling for columbine, nothing special. Its more like he had nothing better to do then go after tragic events, hell just leave them the **** alone.

 

[KagePrototype]

No, I've seen bowling for columbine, nothing special. Its more like he had nothing better to do then go after tragic events, hell just leave them the **** alone.

Hehe, that reminds me of this from Bill Hicks:

You know what's wild, people's attitudes in the States about it. Talking about Kennedy, people come up to me:

"Bill, quit talking about Kennedy, man. Let it go. It's a long time ago - just forget about it."

And I'm like alright, then don't bring up Jesus to me.

As long as we're talking shelf life here.

"Bill, you know Jesus died for you."

Yeah, well it was a long time ago. Forget about it!

Im not directing this at anyone, I just thought it was a funny and interesting point to lay on the table.

 

[Sai]

you know the type of people that piss me off the most?
people who never question their ethics, they just go on their generic life never ever condering that the world they're living in has more to it than sex and television, i despise practically anyone who has always been sheltered and has never seen outside the box they have been traped in for about the span of there life time, moore is a questioner, he does not accept everything that the authorities tell him, he goes out of his way to prove that they are right, but in most of the documentaries he produces they are usually wrong, is he hiding information, most likely, but are the people he's trying to offend hiding information, most definately

 

[Lil' Timmy]

venmoch has the best avatar ever.

oh and stern is right.. you two are a couple of fascists. but it' pretty funny whether you are being serious or not. the president is degrading himself.. he's a simple-minded coke-head born-again piece of shit. he should take his evangelical non-sense and chicken-hawk ideals back to the whatever rock in texas it crawled out from. i say this out of love for my country.

-lt, the patriot

 

[pat_thetic]

I'll probably see, just to see his arguments.... I don't really so what point he is trying to get across. Bush is like best friends with Osama?

 

[Sai]

i probably won't see it until it comes out on dvd, i won't have time these two weeks to see more than one movie, i'm saving it for spider-man 2! i'm a huge moore fan and i love his movies b/c they make me laugh, but i compared the pros of spider-man and 9/11,

farenheit 9/11 pro: intelligent political satire that will entertain and most likely teach me
spider-man2 pro: Kirsten Dunst

......thus spider-man was the obvious winner in that contest

 

[Javert]

I just think its ****ing sad when we allow movies to degrade our President(s) like this. It is utterly horrible to see this actually published, Disney was going to do it first then saw it, as you see they turned it down. Michael Moore has pushed it to the limits, he should start hiding soon before the secret service kill his dumbass.

Michael Moore can die for all I care. It's more of a ****ing fiction movie than anything else. I can't stand him, if he hates this country so much then why doesn't he go to France or some other country.

I am awed by both your posting intelligence.
Some points:
-Shall our President be a god? Or shall we as representees of our elected officials have the right to criticize the President. And the CIA has outlawed assassination of political figures, so gg there.
-BfC and F:9/11 are just as fictional as the Op-Ed pieces (which I shall assume you rarely read) found in most newspapers. As a matter of fact, Moore has hired fact-checkers and oppers (opposition researchers) to comb his film for falsehoods.
-Moore loves his country and people, but can not say the same for its leader. Apathy is the greatest form of ignorance (aptly displayed in your posts).

 

[Spiffae]

I'm on my way out to see the NYC early opening right now... suckaz!

it's gonna be a mob scene.

 

[CptStern]

I'm on my way out to see the NYC early opening right now... suckaz!

it's gonna be a mob scene.

can you give us a review when you get back?

 

[ductonius]

Ah yes, you mean the "Bowling for Truth" link everyone hides behind

Uhhh... no, I researched that little fact far before I knew about bowling for truth. The Titan satellite launch vehilces are redesigned ICBM's (hammering proverbial swords into plowshares) with different avionics, tracking, boosters etc and I wanted to see if that factory actually made the ICBM variety of that rocket. I did some searching and found out that they dont.

So, that factory which was refered to as making WMD by MM does not in fact make WMD's.

False information right there.

and has already been disputed on Moore's site?
I really don't want to get into another of these discussions, though I will say your factory contention has also been addressed.

Now, in reference to MM's "dealing" with his misinformation he says that those satellite launch rockets occasionally carry spy satellites which are used to target WMD's.

The problem with this is that those rockets are not purpose made to launch such satellites; they just happen to be the right launch vehicle for said satellite and the pentagon occasionally buys them. They are not in and of themselves a weapon or even part of a weapon system.

It true that if you paint with a broad brush it has been addressed, but only if you use a huge freaking brush. If your willing to accept that broad brush, fine, but don’t get annoyed at people who choose to use more precise instruments.

 

[Venmoch]

Kinda related to the discussion but its something I found a while ago and thought I'd share although I'd forgotten about it till this thread.

PLEASE NOTE!!!

This is satire, and it may offend some people.

That is the point of satire

Please be noted.

2DTV Arnie and George Bush Sketch

 

[Maxi]

/me is gonna watch it

If it ever makes itself over here...

 

[pat_thetic]

Uhhh... no, I researched that little fact far before I knew about bowling for truth. The Titan satellite launch vehilces are redesigned ICBM's (hammering proverbial swords into plowshares) with different avionics, tracking, boosters etc and I wanted to see if that factory actually made the ICBM variety of that rocket. I did some searching and found out that they dont.

So, that factory which was refered to as making WMD by MM does not in fact make WMD's.

False information right there.



Now, in reference to MM's "dealing" with his misinformation he says that those satellite launch rockets occasionally carry spy satellites which are used to target WMD's.

The problem with this is that those rockets are not purpose made to launch such satellites; they just happen to be the right launch vehicle for said satellite and the pentagon occasionally buys them. They are not in and of themselves a weapon or even part of a weapon system.

It true that if you paint with a broad brush it has been addressed, but only if you use a huge freaking brush. If your willing to accept that broad brush, fine, but don’t get annoyed at people who choose to use more precise instruments.

Pwned... I doubt he will comment on this though.... I would like to see what he has to say in response.

 

[CptStern]

Pwned... I doubt he will comment on this though.... I would like to see what he has to say in response.

you should do a little research before you post:

"The Truth: Lockheed Martin is the largest weapons-maker in the world. The Littleton facility has been manufacturing missiles, missile components, and other weapons systems for almost half a century. In the 50s, workers at the Littleton facility constructed the first Titan intercontinental ballistic missile, designed to unleash a nuclear warhead on the Soviet Union; in the mid-80s, they were partially assembling MX missiles, instruments for the minuteman ICBM, a space laser weapon called Zenith Star, and a Star Wars program known as Brilliant Pebbles.

In the full, unedited interview I did with the Lockheed spokesman, he told me that Lockheed started building nuclear missiles in Littleton and "played a role in the development of Peacekeeper MX Missiles."

As for what's currently manufactured in Littleton, McCollum told me, "They (the rockets sitting behind him) carry mainly very large national security satellites, some we can't talk about." (see him say it here)

Since that interview, the Titan IV rockets manufactured in Littleton have been critical to the war effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These rockets launched advanced satellites that were "instrumental in providing command-and-control operations over Iraq...for the rapid targeting of Navy Tomahawk cruise missiles involved in Iraqi strikes and clandestine communications with Special Operations Forces." (view source here).

That Lockheed lets the occasional weather or TV satellite hitch a ride on one of its rockets should not distract anyone from Lockheed's main mission and moneymaker in Littleton: to make instruments that help kill people. That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss. "

half way down...there's a video too

 

[Lil' Timmy]

counter-pwned!

 

[Gojin]

Michael Moore can die for all I care. It's more of a ****ing fiction movie than anything else. I can't stand him, if he hates this country so much then why doesn't he go to France or some other country.

****in' right man. Rather than try to change a country that you love and have lived in all your life for the better, let it turn to shit.

And I mean, he has the nerve to disagree with some of the countries policies? We should kill him

Do I really need the /sarcasm part?

 

[pat_thetic]

I'm waiting for a counter-counter-pwn.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

yeah, me too, but no one has said anything to warrant it yet..

 

[Maxi]

Guess that was the ultimate pwn then?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

no goddamnit, we are still waiting for the counter to the counter-pwning.

edit: 2000th post.. everyone get on the DANCE FLOOR

 

[FoxDie]

We watched Bowling for Columbine in school and half the class didn't understand it and the other half were completly brainwashed by the film and thought America is evil and they all wanted to move to Canada.

That is the main problem I have with Moore's films. They are very biased, and despite the fact that he is trying to fight propoganda, he uses it in his movies. People tend to believe everything in his movies, or believe nothing. In Bowling for Columbine, he complains about how the American government has been keeping everyone scared (although I do agree with that in some aspects) but I saw him in an interview, and he was complaining about how the security in the airports isn't good enough for him, and he is still worried...hmm...looks like the scare tactics worked on him too
But I think I will see it, just to entertain my mind a bit. Some useful information can be gathered from his movies, but don't be quick to believe everything he says.

 

[ductonius]

you should do a little research before you post:

"The Truth: Lockheed Martin is the largest weapons-maker in the world. The Littleton facility has been manufacturing missiles, missile components, and other weapons systems for almost half a century. In the 50s, workers at the Littleton fa

[snip] ... [/snip]

d's main mission and moneymaker in Littleton: to make instruments that help kill people. That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss. "

Spy and communication satilites still arn't WMD which means that factory dosent make WMD, no matter how you try and spin it. What this means is that when MM said that they made WMD (present tense) at that factory, he was in fact, incorrect.

What Lockheed Martin produces elsewhere is irrelivant.
What Lockheed Martin has produced in the past at that factory is irrelivant.
What other weapons (other than WMD) Lockheed Martin produces at that factory is irrelivant.

When MM said they produced WMD he was either wrong because of inadequate research or wrong because he deliberatly gave false information. In this case - to put it in blunt terms - he is either sloppy or a liar.

 

[Korgoth]

Wow, it amazes me to see people wish death upon someone just for saying bad things about a president. Last I checked we are a democracy and were allowed to do that, but if it causes death then heh, i'll just keep my mouth shut. Anyway, i'll go see it, if it comes to my redneck/nascar dad town. Which happens to be bush's largest support base, chances are it won't come to the theatres here.

 

[Javert]

When MM said they produced WMD he was either wrong because of inadequate research or wrong because he deliberatly gave false information. In this case - to put it in blunt terms - he is either sloppy or a liar.

Well, neither Lockheed nor the Littleton factory have pressed charges against MM for what you're guaranteeing is "sloppy or lying"... :|
You just MIGHT have a case against him. Go Sue!!!</condescending sarcasm>
Edit: See my post below.

 

[Korgoth]

Spy and communication satilites still arn't WMD which means that factory dosent make WMD, no matter how you try and spin it. What this means is that when MM said that they made WMD (present tense) at that factory, he was in fact, incorrect.

What Lockheed Martin produces elsewhere is irrelivant.
What Lockheed Martin has produced in the past at that factory is irrelivant.
What other weapons (other than WMD) Lockheed Martin produces at that factory is irrelivant.

When MM said they produced WMD he was either wrong because of inadequate research or wrong because he deliberatly gave false information. In this case - to put it in blunt terms - he is either sloppy or a liar.

So in using that logic, if someone kills someone 20 years ago, its irrelivant, and if someone kills someone in another state/town its irrelivant, and if they just hurt someone really bad its irrelivant. So that makes them not a murderer? Just like that factory is not a weapons factory?

 

[Javert]

For your reference Ductonius:
Taken from http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

Here's another whopper I've had to listen to from the pro-gun groups:
"The Lockheed factory in Littleton, Colorado, has nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction!"

That's right! That big honkin' rocket sitting behind the Lockheed spokesman in "Bowling for Columbine"-- the one with "US AIRFORCE" written on it in BIG ASS letters – well, I admit it, I snuck in and painted that on that Titan IV rocket when Lockheed wasn't looking! After all, those rockets were only being used for the Weather Channel! Ha Ha Ha! I sure fooled everyone!!

Or....

The Truth: Lockheed Martin is the largest weapons-maker in the world. The Littleton facility has been manufacturing missiles, missile components, and other weapons systems for almost half a century. In the 50s, workers at the Littleton facility constructed the first Titan intercontinental ballistic missile, designed to unleash a nuclear warhead on the Soviet Union; in the mid-80s, they were partially assembling MX missiles, instruments for the minuteman ICBM, a space laser weapon called Zenith Star, and a Star Wars program known as Brilliant Pebbles.

In the full, unedited interview I did with the Lockheed spokesman, he told me that Lockheed started building nuclear missiles in Littleton and "played a role in the development of Peacekeeper MX Missiles." (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/movie.php?mov=lockheed-03)

As for what's currently manufactured in Littleton, McCollum told me, "They (the rockets sitting behind him) carry mainly very large national security satellites, some we can't talk about." (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/movie.php?mov=lockheed-01)

Since that interview, the Titan IV rockets manufactured in Littleton have been critical to the war effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These rockets launched advanced satellites that were "instrumental in providing command-and-control operations over Iraq...for the rapid targeting of Navy Tomahawk cruise missiles involved in Iraqi strikes and clandestine communications with Special Operations Forces." (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/aviationweek.php).

That Lockheed lets the occasional weather or TV satellite hitch a ride on one of its rockets should not distract anyone from Lockheed's main mission and moneymaker in Littleton: to make instruments that help kill people. That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss.


I hope this ends the conversation.

 

[Foxtrot]

Javert are those quotes from Moore? If they are he is a huge jackass.

 

[ductonius]

So in using that logic, if someone kills someone 20 years ago, its irrelivant, and if someone kills someone in another state/town its irrelivant, and if they just hurt someone really bad its irrelivant. So that makes them not a murderer? Just like that factory is not a weapons factory?

If someone killed someone 20 years ago and you claimed they killed someone last week - when in fact they had not - you would be incorrect. The fact that they killed someone 20 years ago is irrelivant to the fact that you are wrong when you claim they killed someone last week if they in fact, did not.

If someone killed someone in place A and you claimed they killed someone in place B - when in fact they had not - you would be incorrect. The fact that they killed someone in place A is irrelivant to the fact that you are wrong when you claim they killed someone in place B if they in fact, did not.

If Lockheed Martin produced ICBM's at the factory in the past and MM claims they produced WMD at the factory now - when in fact they do not - he is incorrect. The fact that they produced ICBM's at that factory in the past is irrelivant to the fact that MM is wrong when he claims they produce WMD at that factory now, when in fact, they do not.

If Lockheed Martin produced ICBM's at a second factory and MM claims they produced WMD at the first factory - when in fact they do not - he is incorrect. The fact that they produced ICBM's at the second factory is irrelivant to the fact that MM is wrong when he claims they produce WMD at the first factory, when in fact, they do not.

 

[ductonius]

For your reference Ductonius:
Taken from http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

Here's another whopper I've had to listen to from the pro-gun groups:
"The Lockheed factory in Littleton, Colorado, has nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction!"

That's right! That big honkin' rocket sitting behind the Lockheed spokesman in "Bowling for Columbine"-- the one with "US AIRFORCE" written on it in BIG ASS letters – well, I admit it, I snuck in and painted that on that Titan IV rocket when Lockheed wasn't looking! After all, those rockets were only being used for the Weather Channel! Ha Ha Ha! I sure fooled everyone!!

MM claimed that the factory produced WMD.

The factory produces Titan heavy lift rockets for the US military among other customers. These rockets are used to launch satilites.

Since the factory does not actually produce any rockets capable of carrying nuclear or other WMD type payloads, they do not produce WMD.

So, when MM claimed that the factory produced WMD, he was wrong.

The Truth: Lockheed Martin is the largest weapons-maker in the world. The Littleton facility has been manufacturing missiles, missile components, and

[snip] ... [/snip]

That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss.
I hope this ends the conversation.

Uhh... dude, I replied to this not four post above you.

 

[Tr0n]

Oh javert...I thought you had more common sense then to trust what MM says....

 

[CptStern]

If Lockheed Martin produced ICBM's at the factory in the past and MM claims they produced WMD at the factory now - when in fact they do not - he is incorrect. The fact that they produced ICBM's at that factory in the past is irrelivant to the fact that MM is wrong when he claims they produce WMD at that factory now, when in fact, they do not.

If Lockheed Martin produced ICBM's at a second factory and MM claims they produced WMD at the first factory - when in fact they do not - he is incorrect. The fact that they produced ICBM's at the second factory is irrelivant to the fact that MM is wrong when he claims they produce WMD at the first factory, when in fact, they do not.

you lost me at "if"

I dont remember MM saying it was WMD

he clearly says:

"Since that interview, the Titan IV rockets manufactured in Littleton have been critical to the war effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These rockets launched advanced satellites that were "instrumental in providing command-and-control operations over Iraq...for the rapid targeting of Navy Tomahawk cruise missiles involved in Iraqi strikes and clandestine communications with Special Operations Forces."

unless you have a soundbite where he says this or a transcript we cant argue this point.

 

[Javert]

Oh javert...I thought you had more common sense then to trust what MM says....

Common sense isn't common.

Javert are those quotes from Moore? If they are he is a huge jackass.

What a perceptive post. Shall I ask you to elaborate, or will that be too difficult for you...
Yes, the entire piece is written by him, and his sources are culled elsewhere.

 

[ductonius]

I dont remember MM saying it was WMD

unless you have a soundbite where he says this or a transcript we cant argue this point.

He said it in "Bowling for Columbine".

Michael Moore: "These [missles] are weapons of mass destruction.' What's the difference between that mass destruction and the mass destruction over at Columbine High School?'"

 

[CptStern]

those are his exact words? seriously I cant remember..but one can obviously see that MM used those words in a flippant/sarcastic way; it's quite clear that students of Columbine didnt have WMD. This is nitpicking, you ignore the overall issues and nitpick the little details. One word, .... he may have said...that one word is enough to persuade you into thinking his whole argument is invalid? It seems to me like a horse with blinders you jump at the chance to cling on to that one validation that he may have lied and ignore all else.

 

[Korgoth]

but ductonius, they are still a murderer, doesn't matter when or where, that is what is irrelivant isn't it? So they are still a missile manufacturer, doesn't matter when or where, right? (sorry not trying to be stubborn, just expressing my point further )

-and just to clarify, i've never seen a MM film

 

[Lil' Timmy]

actually, it goes down like this:

MM is talking to evan mccollum (lockheed martin PR) about how lockheed martin feels a part of the city of columbine, and they talk about what caused the kids to do what they did.
MM asks EM:
"so you don't think our kids say to themselves, 'well, gee, dad goes off to the factory everyday, and, you know, he built missiles. these were weapons of mass-destruction. what's the difference between that mass-destruction and the mass-destruction over at columbine high school?' "?

EM responds:
"i guess i don't see that connection, uh, that specific connection, because the missiles that you're talking about were built and designed to defend us from somebody else who would be aggressors against us. societies and countries and governments do things that annoy one-another, but we have to learn to deal with that annoyance or that anger or that frustration in appropriate ways. we don't get irritated with somebody, and just 'cuz we're mad at them drop a bomb or shoot at them, or fire a missile at them".

then MM launches into a video collage of the various naughty things the US government has done on the international scene (over-throwing democratically elected leaders and whatnot).

clearly, moore is not stating that these missiles were WMDs, he's assuming the role of a columbine kid asking himself about the connection between types of violence, and MM gives EM a chance to respond. i don't see any problem with that at all.


glad i could help

 

[Foxtrot]

Wow that is so lame, MM can't make ANY connection at all. My Dad desinged missles and didn't shoot my school.