So, who is going to see Fahrenheit 911?

Will you see F911?

  • Seeing it

    Votes: 77 70.6%

  • Hell no

    Votes: 32 29.4%
  • Total voters
    109
Foxtrot said:
Wow that is so lame, MM can't make ANY connection at all. My Dad desinged missles and didn't shoot my school.
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well, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't grow moss on a rock..
 
CptStern said:
those are his exact words?
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Yes, yes they are.

CptStern said:
it's quite clear that students of Columbine didnt have WMD.
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True, but thats not the issue.

CptStern said:
This is nitpicking, you ignore the overall issues and nitpick the little details.
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Hardly.

Michael Moores point was that these children might have been influenced by the "fact" that a good portion of the city they live in goes to build ICBM's every day and that those weapons are trucked through thier city during the night.

Since the premise of MM's musing was that the factory produces ICBM's (or WMD as he called them) the fact that the factory does not produce ICBM's is of prime concern.

This is not nitpicking a small fact from his film, it is showing that the premise of a signifigant and prominent section of his picture is wrong.

Since the product of the factory was the PRIME contributng factor to the premise of his section concerning the factory and columbine, MM should have been aware of what the factory actually produced.

Since he did not, he either did not do proper research, or he deliberatly provided false information. In either case, when he calls the missiles WMD it is a signifigant and grevious error in relation to the point he was trying to make.

CptStern said:
One word, .... he may have said...that one word is enough to persuade you into thinking his whole argument is invalid?
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Technically it was three words, and those words were the keystone to the the premise of a signifigant section of his film.

CptStern said:
It seems to me like a horse with blinders you jump at the chance to cling on to that one validation that he may have lied and ignore all else.
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Im sorry if you confused this with a general discussion about the film, but I was discussing whether, when MM called the rockets made by the factory WMD, whether they were in fact, WMD.

I initiated this discussion when the forum member "A True Canadian" said "[Michael Moore] doesn't give false information". When MM called those missles WMD, he was giving false information. All I have been doing throughout this discussion is show that when MM said that those missles were WMD, he was wrong.

Since the "fact" that they were WMD is highly signifigant to that section of the film, it is not nitpicking to expect him to have his facts straight.


That issue and only that issue was being discussed. Im sorry if it displeases you to stick to that single topic, but thats all I was discussing.



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Innervision961 said:
but ductonius, they are still a murderer, doesn't matter when or where, that is what is irrelivant isn't it? So they are still a missile manufacturer, doesn't matter when or where, right? (sorry not trying to be stubborn, just expressing my point further :) )
-and just to clarify, i've never seen a MM film
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The issue is not whether they are a murderer or not, its whether you were right or wrong when you made those statements about them.

If a person commits a murder in location A and you say they commited the murder in location B, you are wrong. The fact that they committed another murder elsewhere is irrelivant to the fact that you were wrong when you said that they committed the murder in location B. They are still a murderer, but you are wrong about the location.

When MM siad they build WMD in that factory, he was wrong, because they do not build WMD in that factory. The fact that Lockheed Martin builds ICBMs elsewhere is irrelivant to the fact that none are currently built in that factory. Lockheed Martin builds ICMB's, but MM is wrong about that factory.
 
ductonius said:
Technically it was three words, and those words were the keystone to the the premise of a signifigant section of his film.
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Well, now if you want to be really super-duper technical, it's four words. I hope that wasn't a keystone or anything...

The character of McCollum's response and the fact that this man did not take issue with the semantics of Moore's query clearly illustrates that it was understood in the context and not regarded as misleading. Don't you think a director or communications for Lockheed would have bothered to point this out?

I'll be seeing the film, but to be honest, I don't think Moore is going to have much success changing anyone's opinion, and this thread demonstrates that: the lines have already been drawn; people have already chosen sides; and nobody even wants to listen to what anyone else has to say.
 
Maybe him and his family share the same views. I know I'm gonna get flak for this statement but I don't mean that much by it, but they want a movie that makes them think (Yeah I know he is biased, and I don't wanna go into all that. Just a harmless statement. Don't reply to that last sentence out of parenthesis. :D)
 
psyno said:
The character of McCollum's response and the fact that this man did not take issue with the semantics of Moore's query clearly illustrates that it was understood in the context and not regarded as misleading. Don't you think a director or communications for Lockheed would have bothered to point this out?
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The nature of the reply to MM assertion is not relivant to the fact that the premise of the scene and the point of the scene in general was that the children of the city might be influenced by the presence of a factory that produces WMD.

We cannot know the motivations as to why the man at Lockheed did not correct MM and speculating as to what they were is a pointless excercise. Furthermore, his lack of retort to MM's assertion that the plant produces WMD is not evidence that he viewed the statement as accurate. It is enteirly possible that he did take issue with the semantics of MM query, but since the whole incident is not shown we will never know.

The fact remians that the premise of the scene was that the plant produces WMD, therefore making the issue of whether the plant does or does not produce WMD of critical importance. Since MM states that it does and uses this as the premise of the scene, and since the plant does not produce WMD, MM has either engaged in inadequate research or is deliberatly misleading the viewer. Either way, his assertion that the missles are WMD is false.
 
Don't you see what you're missing though? Moore never made this assertion! What were his words? "So you don't think our kids..."

Wait a second! Does Micheal Moore even have children? Who would mate with him? And more importantly, even if he did have children, why on Earth would they be in Colorado?!

You're trying to say that that plant doesn't make WMD's -- and maybe it doesn't -- but Moore isn't talking specifically about that plant, and what exactly that plant does is not highly relevant! It's symbolic! Any way you cut it Lockheed is still the biggest arms manufacturer on the planet. The end.
 
psyno said:
Don't you see what you're missing though? Moore never made this assertion! What were his words? "So you don't think our kids..."
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Michael Moore: "These [missles] are weapons of mass destruction."

I kind of think he did make the assertion that they were WMD.

psyno said:
You're trying to say that that plant doesn't make WMD's -- and maybe it doesn't --
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It dosent. Proven fact. It makes the Titan heavy launch vehicle which cannot carry WMD and is used to launch satilites only.

psyno said:
but Moore isn't talking specifically about that plant, and what exactly that plant does is not highly relevant!
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Michael Moore states that the plant produces WMD and that the children of the city might be affected by the fact that it produces WMD and that said weaons are trucked through the city. Furthurmore, he connects the "fact" that the plant produces WMD to the Columbine Highschool shooting (which took place in the same city).

Given those two, I think there is ample evidence to show that he is talking specifically about that plant.

Since he is talking specifically about that plant and bases a segment of his movie on the premise that that specific plant produces WMD, it can be said that whether the plant produces WMD or not is a highly relivant issue.

Now, the issue is whether when MM stated that the factory produced WMD, wether it was a true or false statement. Given that the rockets that factory builds are not ICBM's and are very far removed from ICBM's, it can be conclued that for whatever reason, MM made a false statement.

psyno said:
It's symbolic!
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MM made statements connecting specifically that plant and its business to the city and the Columbine shooting. Given the large ammount of information conneciting the city and the plant, it can in no way be symbolic.

psyno said:
Any way you cut it Lockheed is still the biggest arms manufacturer on the planet.
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Which bears no weight on the fact that the factory in question does not produce WMD.
 
Me thinks we should shave both Moores and Bush's heads and send them over to Iraq.
Yes, that was stupid and I really did have an opinion, just not enough energy to type it.
Mabye I do, here we go...
You hate/respect/dont care about Moore, that is in fact irrelivent, what is important is that some ones out there questioning the things our goverment is doing, keeping us informed and the leaders in line (This is not an attack on any president!). We always need some one like this who will make these movies, piss off these people ect...

A good example of why we need people like him.
This thread
None of us here would have started this thread or done research on anything related to it (generalization).

He has, wether you like it or not, got you thinking.
 
seinfeldrules said:
Babyheadcrab if this is the kind of family movie you guys watch....




Wow.
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give me one good reason not to watch F 9/11 with the family ...I guess kids shouldnt watch anything that's worth discussing...let's just let them watch quality films such as DodgeBall the movie or White Chicks; good wholesome thought provoking family movies.

the movie opens today. Anyone seen an advance veiwing of it? I'd like to hear some impressions
 
critics at yahoo? :rolleyes: from that same link, the Chicago Sun Times gave it a A-, The Tribune gave it an A...and so on. Need I remind you it won a Palme D'or? the highest award in film
 
CptStern said:
critics at yahoo? :rolleyes: from that same link, the Chicago Sun Times gave it a A-, The Tribune gave it an A...and so on. Need I remind you it won a Palme D'or? the highest award in film
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i'm not sure if it was the highest award in film, but i do know it was the highest award in the cannes film festival, but i just put that link to show people who wern't sure about watching early impressions
 
hmmm, this is kinda sad.. pointing the fingure at moore for making money in the process, of releasing movies, and books.. following the system...

what you think, hes gonna beable to do it for free?... people are used to paying money on decent movies and books, its part of life and the modern attraction.

Jeesh, quit complainin,, this guys probably got more insight, and sensibility in one of his little fingures compared to all the Moore opposers (mostley rednecks I heard :stare: ). This guy stands up,, and some people accuse him of undermining a country's patriostism. Without any real just cause.

we are all human beings right..? patriotism doesnt always make you right.. the truth is far more important,, thats his point.

so maybe we should pull the preverbial fingure out of our asses and lisen..

rather than shouting,, LA LA LA,, and running off to our bed and shoving our pillows over our heads. Thinking that everything that the government do is totally excusable just because of herritage, and what you think they represent,,.

seems that some people really cant tell between what they 'think', and what is the truth.
 
CptStern said:
you're an idiot
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:laugh: I second that,, now we see the true colours of a Moore hater..

poking fun at his appearance as a last resort,,
 
CptStern said:
you're an idiot
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i love your blunt delivery

i hate people who go as low as pointing out the physical weakness of others, now that's "****in dumbshit"
 
I didn't wirte the damn review!

Im just agreeing! now chill out jesus christ!

You're all democrats!
 
you may have not written that review but comments like

"this ****ing fatass should be living in a street corner"
"why don't we send him to iraq and have them decapitate him"

doesn't make you look much better than the guy who wrote that review

EDIT: yet again cpstern says it better than me
 
Joeyslucky22 said:
I didn't wirte the damn review!

Im just agreeing! now chill out jesus christ!

You're all democrats!
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your too ready to stereotype people, :rolleyes:

I second Cpt stern's response
 
Joeyslucky22 said:
you're a democrat, of COURSE you wouldn't understand
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sir, i do not follow the agenda of the conservatives or the liberals, yet i don't have to point out your idiot statements
 
if you really have to label me as anything, then call me a member of the green party
 
9/11 was his ****in opinion thus I think hes an idiot, so i see why you think im an idiot. Now let it be, and you keep your thoughts of me to yourself, because frankly i dont want to hear it on these forums.
 
Joeyslucky22 said:
9/11 was his ****in opinion thus I think hes an idiot, so i see why you think im an idiot. Now let it be, and you keep your thoughts of me to yourself, because frankly i dont want to hear it on these forums.
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then exactly who do you come to these forums, actually why bother going to a forum period if that's how you feel

just b/c you say something doesn't mean we don't have the right to disagree with it....
 
im stating my opnion on a movie, and yes this movie is about Mr. Moore

This forum is off topic, im not flaming users am I? now shut up, please!

You want to poke fun at me, PM me, i'd be happy to reply
 
Joeyslucky22 said:
9/11 was his ****in opinion thus I think hes an idiot, so i see why you think im an idiot. Now let it be, and you keep your thoughts of me to yourself, because frankly i dont want to hear it on these forums.
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you know if you made sense then we wouldnt have slammed you for being an idiot...I really dont think you have a clue about what Michael Moore is all about

Joeyslucky22 said:
im stating my opnion on a movie, and yes this movie is about Mr. Moore
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so I guess you've seen the movie? if you had you would have known it wasnt about Michael Moore...he may be in it but it's not about him
 
you seen any Kerry TV ads latly? yeah, thats pretty much what this movie is.

Now PM me if you want to talk shit about me
 
Joeyslucky22 said:
im stating my opnion on a movie, and yes this movie is about Mr. Moore

This forum is off topic, im not flaming users am I? now shut up, please!

You want to poke fun at me, PM me, i'd be happy to reply
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YOUR RIGHT

i do have better things to do then waste my time showing you the dumb things you said
 
Joeyslucky22 said:
you seen any Kerry TV ads latly? yeah, thats pretty much what this movie is.

Now PM me if you want to talk shit about me
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you really are an idiot
 
Joeyslucky22 said:
im stating my opnion on a movie, and yes this movie is about Mr. Moore
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I believe this sums it up nicely... Now what was that saying...?

Aha:

If someone says something you don't like, argue the evidence. If the evidence is against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, call the other side names.

Seems to be the unwritten law in politics ;)
 
im not really sure who that is against but really I havn't called anyone names...

Id like to know who actually saw the film already?
 
CptStern said:
you really are an idiot
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damn it dude, why is it that you have such a better way of saying things than me!?!?!?
 
Joeyslucky22 said:
im not really sure who that is against but really I havn't called anyone names...
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*sigh* I did ponder whether it would go over people's heads...

Well, you called Moore an idiot (which he clearly isn't). And there were those quotes about calling him fat or otherwise making fun of him.
 
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