Some thoughts on God

[spookymooky]

If God is a perfect creator then, by definition, his creation must be perfect. Just as a perfect artist would create a perfect work of art. This being what identifies the artist/creator as perfect.

This world obviously has a lot of pain and suffering. This implies one of three things:
1. There is no God. (if this is what you think, thats fine, but please dont respond to this thread a million times stating that).
2. God is imperfect.
3. God created the world with pain in it for a reason.

Now, I dont have much to say about the first two except that if either is true, nothing matters much. But, I believe I may have stumbled on why God might have created it.

My answer (besides 42) is that God created the world as a joke.

Pain is the basis of all humor.

That statement can easily be discredited by simply giving me an example of a joke which doesnt involve pain. The easiest response to this is a joke such as "Why did the chicken cross the road" and such. Now, this is a riddle. Any humor to be found in a riddle is the result of one of two things:
1) Humans are amused with riddles because they are something new and clever. This is the same reason one is attracted to something "shiny", like a new gadget.
2)The humor is actually a result of the person's inability to guess something simple and obvious. They laugh upon realizing that they wasted quite a bit of mental energy attempting to solve something right under their noses the whole time.

Therefore, if there is a God, and he is perfect, he created the entire world simply for a laugh.

Comments?

 

[AntiAnto]

Why if "pain" was part of perfection... perfect is a synonym for balance, so we need to have some good and bad things to have a perfect world.

A proof that our world is perfect, just think of the creation of the universe. If the earth was like 0,0000001 cm inclined on the right that it is right now, the climat would be too cold for human existence. And so is a lot of other things that prove me that the world is.... [taking breath]....perfect.

 

[Shuzer]

God created the world perfect. Adam and Eve screwed up, and gg humanity.

The end.

 

[CrazyHarij]

Think outside the box.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Think outside the box.

Thats like asking an unborn child to think outside the womb.

 

[CrazyHarij]

Thats like asking an unborn child to think outside the womb.

True. Why not allow yourself to be born then?

I think you could compare daily life to constantly saying "no" to the question "Do you want to climb outside the box"?

 

[Prince of China]

Maybe pain is a good thing. Perfectness=Boring.
Pain and violence=Good thing, especially in movies.
Maybe that's how God intended it.

 

[Ames]

The Matrix!!! :O

 

[craig]

God created us with Free Will, which is the cause for all the worlds problems, so in essence he/she created an in-perfect being (i.e. us).

Personally I'd much rather have free will than not though (because I do believe we'll one day either drestroy ourselves, in which case it won't matter, or we'll figure out we're not so different at all and start to get on), so it's debatable whether we're actually perfect or not.

My head hurts.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

True. Why not allow yourself to be born then?

I think you could compare daily life to constantly saying "no" to the question "Do you want to climb outside the box"?

Thats not exactly how I was saying it...I was suggesting that we, as human beings are trapped within this universe and can not therefore see it from the outside, nor even comprehend a view from the outside. Of course, being born would mean we had left it and could not go back in again...

 

[CrazyHarij]

God created us with Free Will, which is the cause for all the worlds problems, so in essence he/she created an in-perfect being (i.e. us).

Personally I'd much rather have free will than not though (because I do believe we'll one day either drestroy ourselves, in which case it won't matter, or we'll figure out we're not so different at all and start to get on), so it's debatable whether we're actually perfect or not.

My head hurts.

What is Free Will? A bunch of series of reactions in your brain? Is it really free will then, a constant flow of impulses randomly choosing one thing or another depending on circumstances?

Or do you mean choosing between heaven or hell? Is it free will to choose between giving away your wallet to a robber or letting him shoot you?

FarrowleSparrow: Okay, it does depend on how you percept this "box". Will we ever be let out of it if we're trapped inside it for the rest of our lives? Perhaps when we die, we are actually being born into the outside of this box?

I'm just speculating with random theories, input if you'd like.

 

[Dalamari]

Eve f**ked it up for everyone

GG women.

 

[craig]

What is Free Will? A bunch of series of reactions in your brain? Is it really free will then, a constant flow of impulses randomly choosing one thing or another depending on circumstances?

Or do you mean choosing between heaven or hell? Is it free will to choose between giving away your wallet to a robber or letting him shoot you?

Stop being so damn scientific. Free will is the choices we make every day (whereby we can make a definite choice, to be a better person or not). It can be anything simple that makes you a better person (i.e. holding the door open for a lady with a pram, rather than just walking through and watching her struggle).

 

[Alig]

Not that i believe in God but how do you know its a male if a God exsisted?

Edit/ I'll answer for you - You are'nt sure if a god exsists, just would rather think one did exsist and led to believe by someone's opinion that its a male. God is like a game review - it was one person's opinion but it grew on people....

 

[CrazyHarij]

Stop being so damn scientific. Free will is the choices we make every day (whereby we can make a definite choice, to be a better person or not). It can be anything simple that makes you a better person (i.e. holding the door open for a lady with a pram, rather than just walking through and watching her struggle).

I agree, good answer. I apologise for the "scientific" tone, it's not my purpose to be scientific, it's just that I don't want a bunch of atheists on my neck when coming with my own outspaced beliefs..

 

[craig]

Not that i believe in God but how do you know its a male if a God exsisted?

Edit/ I'll answer for you - You are'nt sure if a god exsists, just would rather think one did exsist and led to believe by someone's opinion that its a male. God is like a game review - it was one person's opinion but it grew on people....

I'm pretty sure god is genderless to be honest, but it's the general consensus that god is considered to be a man (in the same way most cars are women).

I agree, good answer. I apologise for the "scientific" tone, it's not my purpose to be scientific, it's just that I don't want a bunch of atheists on my neck when coming with my own outspaced beliefs..

No need to aplogise man. I just figured you were trying to debate this from the atheist stand point and basically trying to ridicule me

Friends?

 

[Alig]

I'm pretty sure god is genderless to be honest, but it's the general consensus that god is considered to be a man (in the same way most cars are women).

But my religious studies teacher (i didn't want to do that subject...) at school referred to God as a "he - him"

You can't truly believe something exsists and build on that saying its a male. If you truly believed in a God you'd call it "it" and respect the fact you don't actually how a clue what to believe it is.

 

[craig]

But my religious studies teacher (i didn't want to do that subject...) at school referred to God as a "he - him"

You can't truly believe something exsists and build on that saying its a male. If you truly believed in a God you'd call it "it" and respect the fact you don't actually how a clue what to believe it is.

Since records began (and up till the last 40 years at least) man has been the stronger/more domenant of the two sexes (which is probably why god is considered a man).

We have no way to proove what god is (or if god indeed exists), but saying 'it' would be very odd if you ask me.

 

[Alig]

Since records began (and up till the last 40 years at least) man has been the stronger/more domenant of the two sexes (which is probably why god is considered a man).

We have no way to proove what god is (or if god indeed exists), but saying 'it' would be very odd if you ask me.

Well i only said it because with it being a thought on God thread i thought one would of been "Is God male or female?"

Yeah can't call it "IT" - Thats a crazy clown

 

[spookymooky]

Not that i believe in God but how do you know its a male if a God exsisted?

Edit/ I'll answer for you - You are'nt sure if a god exsists, just would rather think one did exsist and led to believe by someone's opinion that its a male. God is like a game review - it was one person's opinion but it grew on people....

The pronoun "he" can be used when gender is unknown.

 

[Kangy]

I know it's 8 mins long, but it really is good.

I have no idea about god.

How the heck am I meant to know which one to believe?

 

[CptStern]

But my religious studies teacher (i didn't want to do that subject...) at school referred to God as a "he - him"

You can't truly believe something exsists and build on that saying its a male. If you truly believed in a God you'd call it "it" and respect the fact you don't actually how a clue what to believe it is.

bah! everyone knows this is what god looks like :thumbs:

 

[Lil' Timmy]

i know i should just stay out of this discussion, but i'm going to toss a little logic bomb in anyway..

spooky, your initial condition is flawed in that you are trying to gauge the 'perfection' of the world, when perfection is not a measurable quantity. think about it: how do you define perfection? what is an example of a perfect world? how would you recognize such?

also, why do you think that if either the first or the second solution is true, that "nothing matters much"? you should read some existentialism (at least for the basis of rejecting it). one can argue that humanity, unbridled by an overseer, is both truly free and truly responsible. indeed, an existential atheist can argue that their actions 'matter' infinitely more than a believers b/c it's all you have.

taking off from harij's post, free will is a very serious problem for anyone with a philosophical mind. whether you accept a god or not, it's a paradoxical situation. 1) if there is an omniscient, omnipotent, etc god, then it would follow that the universe is determined. obviously in a deterministic framework, "free will" is meaningless. 2) if you reject god, and believe in a material world beholden to scientific laws, free will still has a catch. all actions in the universe are controlled by physical law. for every action theres a reaction, and so for every human thought, there is a stimulus, for those stimuli there were causes that had their own causes ad infinitum (well, up until time began anyway). in this case, every human thought, action, and impulse is also determined.

imo, free will is a non-real conceptualization, like the "soul". why people believe in either is beyond me, personally. maybe it originally comes from the sense of self that we all have; we tend to see the body as a vehicle for our mind, our "real" self. the distinction between the body and the mind is illogical, the mind cannot exist w/o the body, and is more appropriately described as a property of the body. but even people who accept that POV still like to believe their actions are free.. it's a seductive idea i guess.

 

[Neutrino]

God created the world perfect. Adam and Eve screwed up, and gg humanity.

The end.

That doesn't really make sense though. Your argument is that:

1) God is perfect.
2) Thus God created a perfect world/universe
3) Adam and Even were imperfect.
4) Thus the world is now imperfect.

This is a contradiction.

To make logical sense it would have to go:

1) Assumption: God is perfect.
2) Thus God created a perfect world/universe
3) Adam and Eve were part of this creation.
3) Adam and Even were imperfect.
4) Thus part of God's creation was imperfect.
5) Conclusion: God is not perfect.

Sorry for picking apart your statement. I was bored.

@ Timmy, very good points. I've often thought about the idea of free will. Personally, the idea doesn't make sense to me for those exact reasons you pointed out.

 

[qckbeam]

My thoughts on god, don't think about god. It's stupid to waste time on something as ultimately meaningless as this. Much more important things to focus on out there.

 

[NeonSpyder]

I have often been asked, why would a perfect god create a universe that is filled with so much that is evil? these fools miss the greater connundrum, why would a perfect god create a universe at all?


[ i'm not going to get into this, im sick of discussing the fallacies of self-awareness with people. ]

 

[spookymooky]

My thoughts on god, don't think about god. It's stupid to waste time on something as ultimately meaningless as this. Much more important things to focus on out there.

What else am I supposed to do for that hour every week my parents make me sit in Church, but think of heresies?

 

[craig]

My thoughts on god, don't think about god. It's stupid to waste time on something as ultimately meaningless as this. Much more important things to focus on out there.

Like yourself?

 

[qckbeam]

Like yourself?

Hahaha, for whatever reason I didn't think you got that?

 

[spookymooky]

True Free will is impossible.
The human mind is programed with certain preconcieved notions. I.E. If there are two people stuck and an island, for a set period of time, and they have enough food to allow just one two survive, they would never discuss among themselves who is the better one to allow to survive. They will either split the food in half, both dying, or one will be forced to assert himself over the other. (Once again, unknown gender=he)

Why couldn't God make people inclined to work hard for the good of the whole? He could always throw in a couple of dissenters, but doesnt He want His people to be happy? Thats why I like my theory.

Of course, humans will believe whatever they want to; its not a matter of argument and evidence.

 

[Neutrino]

Of course, humans will believe whatever they want to; its not a matter of argument and evidence.

How very true.

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

I see it like this:
Taking it at face value that God exisists: then He created us when he was Tired(Day 6)How can you concentrate on the formation of a species when you are after creating a universe,Millions of Species and various sub levels(Heaven,Hell,Purgatory,Limbo)

Assuming God doesnt exist:Then we are neither lucky nor a freak of Nature.If the Earth had been tilted to 1/12000 of an mile(Or whatever the previously stated number was) but the basics for life were there then another form of life would have evolved here.We are just one of many possible outcomes that could have come about.The roll of a Die if you will.

Now for my own beliefs,and take from them whatever you want or ignore them as you wish:
There is a higher entity,something neither all powerful nor all knowing.Something which has been gently nudgeing the world as a pet project in order to see the results.Killed off the Dinosaurs as it saw some potential in mamals and decided to see how it goes.
It neither cares nor knows the interests of an Individual,its Science project will be seen to its conclusion and then ended.

 

[spookymooky]

Chile, the vast majority of Catholics at least (I dont know about other Christians) dont take the bibel literally. In fact, if you read genesis, there are actually two creation stories.

Also, I thought about that for a while too, the whole science experiment thing, i mean.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Of course, humans will believe whatever they want to; its not a matter of argument and evidence.

that's a very pessimistic view that seems to only be partly true. you could argue that the quality of human thought, in general, does change over time, and that one characteristic of modern philosophical inquiry (both for 'philosophers' and laymen) is that empiricism shapes people's conclusions (beliefs) more today than it did in the past. imo, of course.

 

[Asus]

God is perfect because he is the creator. He does not sin.

Chrisitans are generally thought of as truth seekers. Everyone who is a Christian was once an athest. Even if they grew up in a christian home.

They search for the truth but it leads them to something they never expected. They find God and most who are christians, that did not grow up in a christian family, never expect themselves to be asking themselves if He exists.

Most just dismiss it with "How could God ever exist". Those who are chrisitans know God exists, everyday. From the outside it just looks like they think He exists but if you actually 'take a swim' with discovering truth in mind then you will find a different story.

If you seek the truth, don't blind yourself by assumtions or start looking with already defeat in mind.

We have meaning and direction in life because of God. Without God, life would be meaningless. What would stop us from being just like a dog or horse. We have a soul and the ability to judge between right and wrong.

 

[spookymooky]

A few more things I forgot to say earlier:

If my view of the world is correct, then the funniest thing in the world is religion to God. There are so many reasons, and I dont feel like typing em all out right now.

And, I had been stewing over various things (God, comedy, pain) in completely unrelated thoughts for months, but a few days ago, it all came together just as I was falling asleep (which makes sense), even though I was thinking about something completely different. It was a rather cool feeling.

Edit:

God is perfect because he is the creator. He does not sin.

Chrisitans are generally thought of as truth seekers. Everyone who is a Christian was once an athest. Even if they grew up in a christian home.

They search for the truth but it leads them to something they never expected. They find God and most who are christians, that did not grow up in a christian family, never expect themselves to be asking themselves if He exists.

Most just dismiss it with "How could God ever exist". Those who are chrisitans know God exists, everyday. From the outside it just looks like they think He exists but if you actually 'take a swim' with discovering truth in mind then you will find a different story.

If you seek the truth, don't blind yourself by assumtions or start looking with already defeat in mind.

We have meaning and direction in life because of God. Without God, life would be meaningless. What would stop us from being just like a dog or horse. We have a soul and the ability to judge between right and wrong.

Yay, ive been waiting for someone religious to join in.

Riddle me this: How can someone perfect create imperfection?

 

[Neutrino]

Chrisitans are generally thought of as truth seekers.

True, but it's not just christians. Most everyone seeks the truth. It's human nature to be curious and want to know what's out there.

Without God, life would be meaningless.

That can be debated. What after all is meaning? It's so subjective how can you pin it down and say "this" or "that" is meaning?

 

[Voodoo_Chile]

Chile, the vast majority of Catholics at least (I dont know about other Christians) dont take the bibel literally. In fact, if you read genesis, there are actually two creation stories.

Also, I thought about that for a while too, the whole science experiment thing, i mean.

Yeah,lots o'Contradictions in that book.I suppose its the fault of the Writers and not the Subject Matter.

I think its Science Expieriment has been in phases.You have the time of Mythology and apparantly some very High Tech Sciences back then aswell,however something changed,the Mythological beasts so widely known about have vanished(Understandably the Krakann was probly a Giant Squid but Explain away a Chrimera or Sphinx)And this Eygtpian Medical Knowledge and the Anicents knowledge of the Solar system seems to have disapppeared till the Renisance.
I think we are due for another Varible to be added to the equation.

 

[Matthias]

Christians believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient. This means he can do anything and he knows everything. So God knew when he created man that Eve would eat the aplle and be banished from paradise. God can do anything, so he could create a world where everyone has free will (and there is no suffering, inequality, war or injustice) if he wanted to.

So in my opinion, if God exists then he's a sadistic b*****tard who wants us to suffer...

 

[spookymooky]

I think we are due for another Varible to be added to the equation.

Thats rather ominous...

On a side note, there are quite a few really odd threads today. Especially Sh4mpo0's