StarCraft II

Lone Wolf said:
Is it wise as a Terran to build bunkers before any offensive troops?
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If you suspect your opponent is going fast attack, I suggest building a bunker after 2 marines. (Of course, that is assuming that you've completely blocked your entrance.)
 
my terran start strategy involves 2 supply depots and a bunker to block the entrance. This basically makes you immune to rush if you can get at least two marines in it. I usually put one in and then put the rest in the back of my base to stop a reaper rush. The one up front will stave off attackers once they see it's blocked and a bunker is shooting even if it's only one guy. If they do proceed to attack, then you move the marines up toward your wall and blow them away before they destroy anything. If they focus a depot, put them in the bunker and you prolly won't even lose a marine.

That's what I do anyways, pretty much rush proof unless it's a small map and it's a zerg 6 pool... even then it has to be perfect. Hell sometimes I can stop the worker scout if I build fast enough.
 
StarBob said:
Was Protoss ever a beginner's race? They've always been the class the has more expensive stronger units requiring more micro. In all honesty I believe Terran requires the most micro simply because of the dynamics of midgame play on. Maneuvering line of sight and placing siege tanks becomes a chore and since basically every unit you have is ranged - maintaining range between units clever placement. The only saving grace of Terran micro is the marine... they can basically do anything until they come up against a siege tank or colossus.
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The M&M is ridiculously powerful for a terran. It will absolutely demolish the protoss early on.

Protoss microing has become a real chore in SC2. The beginning units of the protoss all require extensive microing (against tough competition that is). When you have sentries, zealots and stalkers, you need to position your army properly to defeat M&M. Since M&M are all range attacks, the positioning of the army is not near as important for them. For protoss however, Sentries must be protected, zealots must be placed in front and forcefield must not block out your own zealots.

I can't remember how many times I wasted several zealots when I forcefielded a ramp and my zealots would run down the ram attempting to get to the M&Ms. I haven't even added high templars and immortals to the mixture yet.

This is only unit control. When it comes to warp gates, that is a REAL chore. You cannot warp in an army via minimap nor can you queue up production. You have to be on screen an area with pylon power then manually warp in your army every 30 seconds or so, since there is no queue up production.
 
That's what I was saying, Protoss require a lot of micro to be successful so I don't see them as a beginner race. I think Terran and Protoss require different types of micro. Protoss may require more, but it all comes down to what units are there. Terran will shift build strategies a lot more often in a longer game simply because things are so utterly counterable. I mean As good as MM is, its completely crushed by AOE.

Today my 2v2 partner and I started running a tier 2 ground unit rush strat and it's worked really well. We play Protoss Terran and he gets stalkers with a few zealots and I get marauders with a few marines. It has a huge advantage when it comes to taking out structures and armor, but it's really weak against massed tier 1... notably zerglings and marines. Zealots aren't so bad because of the maurauders slowing effect. The best part of it is that, because you're getting gas as well, the transition to other units is much friendlier than attempting to catch up from a no-gas situation.

Tonight we tried out some other stuff, but the success was definitely with the tier 2 ground. Some failures included early thors (massive fail) and marine/siege. Marine/siege is actually fantastic but it NEEDS to have some sort of recon and some coordination from your team mate to win. Plus it is really hard to be on the defensive with them if you're limited in movement. Tier 1 rushes work really well too, but if you don't win or kill some stuff, you'll be behind... but anyone who plays Starcraft knows that. You have to have your macro ready to flow from rush to build.
 
So I've always listed/watched djWHEAT's stuff here and there over the years, but since the release of SC2, djWHEAT has really been all over it, and I am watching his shit hardcore now.

<3 djWHEAT
 
djWHEAT is like the GODFATHER of pro game casting on the west side of the world.

Hes pretty much been there since day 1 of pro gaming.
 
I care about pro-gaming about as much as I care about women basketball, so I guess that explains why I've never heard of him.
 
Tbh, Day[9] will always be the best caster in my heart, but probably because I knew of him first.

Now as a someone who exclusively plays Protoss, the only micro I really experience is blink, storm and colossus micro, all of which are relatively easy but probably because I'm not that high of a player :p also I like to focus-fire a lot so I usually concentrate too much on units as a group and not individual ones.

Warpgate isn't that much of a problem when you play P a lot because you'll become more aware that you're not queuing units so you constantly need more.
 
For the swarm! Addicted to this game, promoted to Silver a while back.
 
ktimekiller said:
djWHEAT is like the GODFATHER of pro game casting on the west side of the world.

Hes pretty much been there since day 1 of pro gaming.
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I do love watching Wheat. Watching him at the Day9 countdown party was quite awesome. He's hilarious.

Also, I've watched a few of his Street Fighter 4, Quake 3, and some random other fighter tournies before. He's a great caster.
 
Xevrex said:
Tbh, Day[9] will always be the best caster in my heart, but probably because I knew of him first.

Now as a someone who exclusively plays Protoss, the only micro I really experience is blink, storm and colossus micro, all of which are relatively easy but probably because I'm not that high of a player :p also I like to focus-fire a lot so I usually concentrate too much on units as a group and not individual ones.

Warpgate isn't that much of a problem when you play P a lot because you'll become more aware that you're not queuing units so you constantly need more.
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No sentry, carrier, observer, warp prism, immortal, carriers and unit positioning micro?

People always underestimate the sentry. The forcefield and shield will absolutely demolish any range units. One tactic I particularly enjoy is the army splitting tactic, where you literally cut the enemy army in half with force fields. This makes mass army battles so much easier to handle. Though the 100 gas for sentry makes it one expensive tier 1 unit to use and manage, so I'm not surprised if most players skip it entirely. If you accidentally place it up the front lines, you will easily lose 100 gas and the guardian shield protection.
 
flamingdts said:
No sentry, carrier, observer, warp prism, immortal, carriers and unit positioning micro?

People always underestimate the sentry. The forcefield and shield will absolutely demolish any range units. One tactic I particularly enjoy is the army splitting tactic, where you literally cut the enemy army in half with force fields. This makes mass army battles so much easier to handle. Though the 100 gas for sentry makes it one expensive tier 1 unit to use and manage, so I'm not surprised if most players skip it entirely. If you accidentally place it up the front lines, you will easily lose 100 gas and the guardian shield protection.
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Sentries dominate against Terran. It's depressing when I see like 4 force fields go up because everything I have it ranged. Protoss really just have everything they need to ruin a Terran's day. Last night a Protoss just ran around with phoenixes killing my siege tanks while his team mate had a free run with his.
 
flamingdts said:
No sentry, carrier, observer, warp prism, immortal, carriers and unit positioning micro?

People always underestimate the sentry. The forcefield and shield will absolutely demolish any range units. One tactic I particularly enjoy is the army splitting tactic, where you literally cut the enemy army in half with force fields. This makes mass army battles so much easier to handle. Though the 100 gas for sentry makes it one expensive tier 1 unit to use and manage, so I'm not surprised if most players skip it entirely. If you accidentally place it up the front lines, you will easily lose 100 gas and the guardian shield protection.
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I'm terrible at FF micro so I usually disregard the sentry. Also, if I have to go stalkers to counter whatever shitty armoured/air unit my opponent makes, sentries usually can't keep up especially when I use Blink. I usually don't make it to carriers, either. With an obs, I usually set them to follow my main group and will try my best to move it out of danger if it's about to get the shit shot out of it. Immortals go with my stalkers if they don't have blink, and otherwise I keep them pretty close while my stalkers blink everywhere. They also either kill just armoured or buildings, so not a lot to concentrate on there. And yeah, I do unit positioning micro, but didn't really mention that because I thought that was considered really standard micro to do.

Though, I'm not great or anything, so I'm sure if I was in a higher league I'd have to do more complex micro.
 
Bleh... trying to win your way past platinum is a chore... and I assume when we get past it we'll lose a bunch to diamond people. It's prolly harder to lose out of a rank than to win up though. That tier 2 rush is working really well... marauders are just badass on their own. Marines were never the big deal. Plus even if you get in a situation where like 2 or 3 survive they do enough building damage to take some stuff out. It's good stuff.
 
StarBob said:
Bleh... trying to win your way past platinum is a chore... and I assume when we get past it we'll lose a bunch to diamond people. It's prolly harder to lose out of a rank than to win up though. That tier 2 rush is working really well... marauders are just badass on their own. Marines were never the big deal. Plus even if you get in a situation where like 2 or 3 survive they do enough building damage to take some stuff out. It's good stuff.
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It's always good to have a mixed unit composition in-case your opponent decides to tech switch on you. Maybe you scout he's building something really heavily armoured, well he gets the upper hand if he switches to air and then rapes your marauders.
 
That's why it's a rush... it precedes any significant air... plus my team mate gets Stalkers and takes care of that. The best part is that, unlike a normal tier 1 rush, you have gas ready for upgrades and tech shifts. I can jump straight to whatever I need or just keep upgrading my infantry. It's nice.
 
So are you always talking 2v2 Starbob? That explains why you're "platinum" but are always talking about complete shit strategies (I was laughing hard at the "walling with a bunker" post)! I was getting confused.
 
Harsh but true. :p Although in my experience, 2v2 is harder to place considering I got gold in 1v1 and bronze 2v2 with a decent friend. Maybe we just lost to too much cheese or something.

I'm on vacation and going through Starcraft withdrawal, I think I need to mention it twice because it pains me so bad. But I just wanted to add my love for day[9]'s commentary, which has been easing the withdrawal lately. King of the beta tournament finales were totally excellent.
 
Are you guys ****ing kidding? My friends and I are all bad at SC2 by any kind of remotely competitive standards but we all placed plat in 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3 with each other. If you lose more than 1 placement game you're either bad or severely unlucky. Or maybe you played them all directly after midnight the night of the release so only practiced, hardcore beta vets were playing. Trust me I'm pretty awful at SC2 but I can't imagine anyone who played the beta or was good at SC1 could place into anything but plat. I actually wish I had rigged it to place into Gold or Silver because I get schooled often in platinum and it's kind of painful.
 
Placement matches put you up against pretty much all bronze.
 
Ennui said:
Are you guys ****ing kidding? My friends and I are all bad at SC2 by any kind of remotely competitive standards but we all placed plat in 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3 with each other. If you lose more than 1 placement game you're either bad or severely unlucky. Or maybe you played them all directly after midnight the night of the release so only practiced, hardcore beta vets were playing. Trust me I'm pretty awful at SC2 but I can't imagine anyone who played the beta or was good at SC1 could place into anything but plat. I actually wish I had rigged it to place into Gold or Silver because I get schooled often in platinum and it's kind of painful.
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Here's the thing though, someone has to lose those matches. For me it's a matter of me not attacking at the right time, especially in 1v1. I always survive 2 waves from an opponent, but then hesitate to attack because it's so hard to tell if I'll get there in time to cause damage before they can recreate their force. Lesson learned, attack whenever you get the chance. Derp.
 
Hah, I pulled off my first cheese.

I proxy pyloned a terran inside his base and far away from his view, then warped in two gateways to protect the pylon.

Scouting is EVERYTHING in Starcraft. If you scout a couple of workers late, that is the difference between a win or a lose.

Though lately, I've been playing some 3v3 matches with my friends, and we decided that some maps are a must cheese map.

One of the maps is called Frontier 0.1. Basically, you have one person on top and another at the bottom, both with a wide ramp to defend. The person in the middle however has two ramps to defend (although they are thinner), which means one of the ramps must be abandoned or defended by an ally.

400px-Frontier.jpg


We got rushed on this map, because it was almost impossible to defend. We even managed to scout their proxy gateways and barracks, but that didn't help at all because there were 4 ramps to go up on, two of which could not be defended with a standard terran wall in.

So the next time we played this map, we decided to cheese our opponents with the same rush build. The terran player in the middle walled off one ramp, but the other ramp was left completely empty (as expected). We won the game easily. I'm not completely certain, but it seems like the only way to defend against a rush in this map is if you attempt to match their army, but by the time you realize they are rushing you, they already have an advantage over you.
 
I am slowly but surely getting to grips with skirmish. Played a couple of matches against easy AI and I won 'em all. The morebseasoned SC veterans might laugh, but bear in mind that during the beta I even got beaten by very easy AI. Playing with the Terrans I seem to have the first couple of minutes of build order down, but I am still struggling with what to do during mid- and endgame. Building three or more Thors and marching into the enemy's base might work against easy AI but I highly doubt I would even be able to build one against any human opponent. Still, I think it's time to start doing my placement matches. To quote Tychus: it's about time.
 
flamingdts said:
Scouting is EVERYTHING in Starcraft. If you scout a couple of workers late, that is the difference between a win or a lose.

Though lately, I've been playing some 3v3 matches with my friends, and we decided that some maps are a must cheese map.
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**** no. There are no "must cheese" maps, especially in team games. Cheese is very easy to hold off in 1v1 or even 2v2 if you're really good or have some sort of counter all-in gimmick, but still most 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 cheese are just plain cheap. There's no justification for them like "oh if they don't scout it and defend properly they lose lol" because 2-3 cheesing armies versus one person is an insta-gg no matter how well they defend. The only time that scouting saves you is when going up against a cannon rush since it's just a vulnerable structure in the periphery of your main. All other rush tactics are shit.

Last night I played a 3v3 with Quix and Letters and got 6pool 2gated by 2 Zergs and a Toss, so we all tried to wall off and defend but a shitload of lings and zealots vs 1-2 zealots from 2gate does not hold off a rush well. I guess I microed okay and staved them off for 7 minutes, but my economy was severely hurt with no hope for recovery.

Screw you goddamn team cheesers.
 
Shakermaker said:
What's cheesing?
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All-in rush strategies. 6pooling, 3gate zealot spamming, walling off and teching straight to void rays, cannon rushing, bunker rushing, proxy gate, proxy barracks and I'm sure there are multiple variations of them.

Basically they're designed to throw a small amount of units at your opponent while he has no army to hold it off yet with a severe hit to the cheesing player's economy, especially if his opponent is going for an economy build. They can be held off easily in 1v1 games, but in team games when you have multiple players doing it to just one guy, he's pretty done for unless his teammates can offer any help. Usually they can't. :p

ktimekiller said:
Placement matches put you up against pretty much all bronze.
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If bronze cheeses you and you're caught off-guard, you can be pretty screwed. I usually can't catch a cheese my first one or two games of the night or when I'm playing while tired.
 
Cheers Xevrex. It is actually what I have been practicing on during my vs. AI matches. Since I only feel really comfortable playing Terrans I usually pump out Marines and maybe two or three Marauders, and then I start harassing (the exit of) my opponent's base.

Hell, lets try my first placement match now since I am home. I'll give a battle report after.
 
anyone in europe who plays here? to add me as friend?

dam blizzard whit theyr locked region play
 
Two losses. They were close though. And I both lost them because of diversionary attacks on my supplies. In both cases I had the troops to fight them off, but I either used 'em in a variety of stupid ways or wasn't paying attention well enough (plus some bad luck). What I need to get out of my system are my CoH mannerisms. Defending your base isn't as important in that game. You want to get your troops out into the field where they can make a difference. SC2 seems to be more about defending first and attacking second (except for the 'cheesing' I guess). Oh well, I still had fun. Gonna lose the other three now and join my fellow noobs in bronze I guess.

EDIT lol, bronze 67 hahahaha I so suck at this game. gonna keep trying though, I am having fun.

EDIT TWO first league match was a win, because the dude dropped after 5 mins of play. Now I got promoted to bronze 18. Does it usually go that fast?
 
My "Decisive Battle" tactic consists of defending from an enemy attack (because when you're defending, you'll have a clear advantage over the enemy, especially if you're uphill. When they fail and retreat, you chase after them with all your troops while simultaneously building loads more. You will do some damage this way, if not actually win the game. If its clear that you don't have enough troops to win, though, pull back and defend.

I've been having a win streak of 8 now, lol.:p
 
Thanks Numbers, that tip just got me my first win. Played against a Protoss fella who decided to send in troops piecemeal. Since I had my exit locked off and troops guarding it he couldn't get through. In the meanwhile I teched up quick to a starport while building groups of AA turrets where needed. I reconned his base with a couple of Vikings and saw that he only had those four legged creatures (Stalkers?). No turrets and no cloak detection so after that I just sent in wave after wave of cloaked banshee and bombarded him to kingdom come. First real league win yay!
 
Letters said:
So are you always talking 2v2 Starbob? That explains why you're "platinum" but are always talking about complete shit strategies (I was laughing hard at the "walling with a bunker" post)! I was getting confused.
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Ah letters... always around to pretend he's better than anyone.

Yes topping plat brackets and moving to diamond... we lost one placement and ended up in bronze. Our strategies work just fine and I think winning games speaks for itself. No we don't win every game, but we definitely don't lose them all either. Anyways thanks for talking shit, it's always fun to make pointless posts in a thread.
 
StarBob said:
That's why it's a rush... it precedes any significant air... plus my team mate gets Stalkers and takes care of that. The best part is that, unlike a normal tier 1 rush, you have gas ready for upgrades and tech shifts. I can jump straight to whatever I need or just keep upgrading my infantry. It's nice.
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I was assuming you were talking 1v1. And if I'm thinking what you're doing (sending in early marines/marauders) then a Protoss is usually asskicked by that. I found it pretty hard to fend off. Granted, that was awhile ago and I've since improved yet haven't faced a Terran who did that, so I'm not sure how I'd hold up.
 
Xevrex said:
All-in rush strategies. 6pooling, 3gate zealot spamming, walling off and teching straight to void rays, cannon rushing, bunker rushing, proxy gate, proxy barracks and I'm sure there are multiple variations of them.

Basically they're designed to throw a small amount of units at your opponent while he has no army to hold it off yet with a severe hit to the cheesing player's economy, especially if his opponent is going for an economy build. They can be held off easily in 1v1 games, but in team games when you have multiple players doing it to just one guy, he's pretty done for unless his teammates can offer any help. Usually they can't. :p
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There are tons of easily rush defendable maps on 3v3 or 2v2. In some cases however, you are put in a clear disadvantage on defense, hence the reason I call them must cheese maps. You cheese them or they will cheese you. Better take a cheap win than a cheap lost right?

As of now, I actually find it more advantageous against some races to be on the aggressive. One thing I realize from a lot of RTS players is a majority of them like to take first hit, due to the defensive position they hold up. Thus, most of their builds would consist of fast teching, and a sizable army to hold off a choke point.

However, I've been garnering a lot of success with a half ass all in build against protoss. I would do a standard build at the beginning, which my opponent would scout. Once my first gateway is up I would get rid of the scout with my zealot. After that, I immediately pop a couple more gateways, pumping out a bunch of stalkers and zealots, then I go straight to the attack. Most of the time, my protoss opponent would have a 2 gate robo or a 1 gate robo (something I'm usually sure of after scouting their base early on), in which his army is not nearly as big as mine, and his sentry forcefields would not hold up long enough to fend off my attack. Even if he had air units, my stalkers would easily take care of his void rays (since the game is still too early for carriers). The only thing I'm afraid of with this attack is if they had photon cannons, but most Protoss nowadays don't set up photon cannons until the last quarters of the early game.
 
The amount of auto-fellatio and shit-talking in this thread is reaching alarming highs. I think an HL2.net themed tournament bracket is due to determine who's justified and who's full of shit. OOOoh you placed shiny platinum, good for you. prove it bitches

if only we could play with OTHER ****ING REGIONS I SERIOUSLY CANNOT BELIEVE BLIZZARD IS PULLING THIS BULLSHIT

Regardless, Americans, I challenge you. europeans can do w/e idc




By the way, some of those things listed aren't cheese. For a better definition and examples, check out team liquid.
 
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