Strider blowing up the bridge was unexpected?

lans said:
Oh, so the only way you'd know that the door busting in scene was scripted would be that your good ol' mate Tom told you so? or you work for valve? :dozey:

In any case, source DOESN'T have a scripting language for the A.I., so wither your claim is faulty or you just speculating that it is a propaganda. More over, if it is a propagnada and the A.I is scripted - the critics and gamers will be pissed at valve for telling lies and as a result HL2 won't be that well recieved - which is their loss, so there goes the theory that valve is lying about the A.I.

Why lie about something when later on people will find out about eventually in the full version?
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Despite all their claims of unscripted events, I think there has to be at least something that can be used for scripting. My example would be in the E3 2k4 video when Gordon gets off the train. Once he's in the gated in area (where he's eventually going to be taken to an interrogation type chamber), he walks in, the gate slams shut, the flying thing takes pictures and a combine opens the door for him to come down the hall.

If you're telling me the AI just happened to know that since the player entered here, it should lock him in, take pictures of him and present him with a combine to let him to the next part - I'm going to have to go with: I don't believe you.

However, I do believe they could limit the actual event scripting to non-combat parts. Such as whenever someone is talking to Gordon. There's a part in the E3 2k3 video when Gordon knocks over a computer and Dr. Kleiner interupts what he was saying and tells Gordon to be careful; that's not exactly scripted. However, moments later something bursts through the wall (convienently enough, after they're done talking).

So, while combat events may only rely on AI hints within the level geometry, I think their "We don't have a scripting system of any kind," is full of BS. Unless they just mean it as the game relies on triggers and doesn't have scripting like the fireball part in HL (where you walk down the tube, the army guy throws in a bomb and you run back to the water as a fireball chases you).
 
Well, we could probably explain that the strider saw people walking under the destroyable bridge. The strider expected that the blown up concrete would fall on the enemy. That's why he would destroy it. Get it?
 
I think it's just a way of clearing the path...it might be very simple to make them do that kinda stuff unscripted for as much as we know
 
Valve never said they don't use scripting , they said that know , in HL2 , the parts that are scripted , can be interfered. So , HL2 does not use scripting in the meaning of HL1 scripting , that the same event occurs the same way , no matter what you do.


About the Strider. I think HL2fallout got confused.

Doug Lombardi , in an interview , said that when they built City17 , they took the strider and put it in and the Strider did stuff that they weren't expecting , IIRC , it was about it ducking and stuff . I'm pretty sure that the explosion wasn't mentioned.

So , HL2fallout got a little confused about that part.
 
Valve never claimed the entire game was unscripted. Obviously if you have a story-driven game certain events have to happen and the game will follow a relatively linear path.
However when it comes to combat, the A.I has choices, and arent limited to a single scripted sequence.
 
UltimaGecko said:
Despite all their claims of unscripted events, I think there has to be at least something that can be used for scripting. My example would be in the E3 2k4 video when Gordon gets off the train. Once he's in the gated in area (where he's eventually going to be taken to an interrogation type chamber), he walks in, the gate slams shut, the flying thing takes pictures and a combine opens the door for him to come down the hall.

If you're telling me the AI just happened to know that since the player entered here, it should lock him in, take pictures of him and present him with a combine to let him to the next part - I'm going to have to go with: I don't believe you.

However, I do believe they could limit the actual event scripting to non-combat parts. Such as whenever someone is talking to Gordon. There's a part in the E3 2k3 video when Gordon knocks over a computer and Dr. Kleiner interupts what he was saying and tells Gordon to be careful; that's not exactly scripted. However, moments later something bursts through the wall (convienently enough, after they're done talking).

So, while combat events may only rely on AI hints within the level geometry, I think their "We don't have a scripting system of any kind," is full of BS. Unless they just mean it as the game relies on triggers and doesn't have scripting like the fireball part in HL (where you walk down the tube, the army guy throws in a bomb and you run back to the water as a fireball chases you).
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I'm talking about the combat A.I/combat sequences, not story. You can't tell a story without scripted sequences, I know. Of course, you wouldn't expect Eli to say something dynamic - he'd just say out the same line which the voice actor has performed according to the script of the story.

I'm just saying that most of HL2's combat A.I. will be unscripted to allow for truly dynamic situations and lots of replay value. Obviously the story sequences have to be scripted - you can't change the story in your own way - we haven't reached the age of fully dynamic A.I yet...
 
lans said:
I'm talking about the combat A.I/combat sequences, not story. You can't tell a story without scripted sequences, I know. Of course, you wouldn't expect Eli to say something dynamic - he'd just say out the same line which the voice actor has performed according to the script of the story.

I'm just saying that most of HL2's combat A.I. will be unscripted to allow for truly dynamic situations and lots of replay value. Obviously the story sequences have to be scripted - you can't change the story in your own way - we haven't reached the age of fully dynamic A.I yet...
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agreed, the game shall move through scripting, the combat shall be far less scripted so when you get in a fight the enemy shall use various hints to choose what to do. An example could be...in HL you have that bit where some dude gets thrown through a wall. In HL2 that could occur at any time simply by using physics and having breakable walls. People getting blown up etc shall exercise force on their environments.

Saying all of this i get confused as to where one starts and the other ends because scripting is a tough thing to eliminate, dynamic ai needs hint.... :x more confused :x
 
I have been conversing with the Half-Life 2 A.I. for several days. In full sentences.
 
Here is what I read from an interview somewhere...

Gabe said that when that level was is basic untextured geometry format, the bridge wasn't meant to be broken. But, the Strider they put in the map tried to break through it! That was part of it's AI.

So they said, "Okay, we need to make that possible!"

This may sound familiar to you, in another interview where a playtester playing the E3 2003 cost map just drove on through that glass with the buggy, and Valve said, "Wow! We need a sound for that!"

Valve seems to work like this. And I like it. :)
 
In the early designs, the Striders were going to walk on the sea floor in a big open area where it's pretty easy to have them cruising around. But once we built those cities, somebody ran the tests and said, "What if we run the Strider through there?" And then the contextual AI surprised us, because when the Strider came up to the bridge in the demo, it obviously made him stop. His AI assessed the situation and he tried to blow it away, but he couldn't. So then he crept down, went underneath it and popped back up. It was like, holy [grit - Ed], that's really cool.
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http://gamesradar.msn.co.uk/feature...onid=1639&pagetypeid=2&articleid=27384&page=2

So either Valve are lieing or the AI really is that good :dozey:
 
Well, i rememver when valve was explaining AI somewhere, the AI just knows that say, a wall is desctructible, or that with enough force, you could open a door.
 
Striders have a specific sequence for ducking and crouching. It's not that the AI thought, "lets deform the model in such a way that we can pass under the bridge", it just tried it's 2 only options. I don't see the big deal here.
 
Well, they've said there's no scripting language. Not that there's no scripting at all. What it does have is an acting system, which, I gather, is rather like an interruptable, mildly dynamic form of demo playback. Objects and NPCs can follow a predesigned series of actions, the end result of which is very much like what you could get from a scripting language, but achieved through a different method. That's how it seems to me, anyway.

I reckon the Strider "thinks" like this:

Okay, want to go down this street.

Oops, way is blocked by object; end result = clearance for movement < space needed for full-height movement.

Checking... Ooh, object is destructable! (Maybe they didn't have this, if VALVe is telling the truth about the Strider trying to blow up an object before they made it destructable, or whatever that was...)

Choices, random: Take other route, limbo immediately, or try and see if I can terminate this object completely...

CHOICE:> BLOW THE ******* UP!

"Boom"

Oh, darn, it didn't destroy it. Well, wanted to go this way, guess I'll have to limbo...



... Or I could be completely wrong... come to think of it, there's probably a few priority checks that figure into it, too...
 
The.Spiral said:
I'm sorry if that's been discussed before, but I've juste read HL2Fallout's Source engine description (here), and in the AI section thay say something that made my jaw dropped on the floor:



Is the unexpected part of the whole thing that is amazing... :eek:
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Sorry i wouldn't believe that. Because the bridge had to be made a physical object. So, Valve did expect that because they made the bridge that way. But i believe the strider can "decide" if he wants to blow it up
 
UKchaos2 said:
Yes, but the point is the destruction of the bridge wasnt unexpected because the map was designed to be broken and the A.I was designed to recognise obstructions as targets.
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Um, most of it is designed to be broken. Don't get so specific. They gave the strider the option of simply ducking under it. They weren't expecting the strider to attempt to destroy it. I seriously doubt they make the entire level a target. The way I see it, it only became a target once the strider realized that walking normally through it would not work. THEN it became a target, and it attempted to destroy it before proceeding. But that failed, as peices of it were still in it's path. Because it wasn't destroyed, it then attempted to walk under it.

This was UNEXPECTED. They did not intend for the strider to attempt to blow it away as they were making the demo.
 
The way I see it. The option of blowing something up before trying to go around it is emphasised.

Obvious? Stuff blowing up is good.
 
I will have fun playing that level over 1000 times. :O
 
I think it tried to blow it up because it realized that if it lowered itself it would make itself an easyier target
 
As stated by Rick of vALVE int he latest "Official Info from Valve" thread, some objects in the game give out hints as to how they can be "used." I guess characters and AI then becomes aware of the type of "hints" that applies to their class of creatures, and then pick one of the uses for the object. For example, a door can be "opened," "kicked in" or "blown up".
An enemy soldier would then choose which action to take if a door is preventing him from getting to Gordon. Some choices are more preferable than others--for example, if you grenade the door, you're more likely to hurt Gordon inside the room. I guess as the difficulty level of the game increases, those advantageous choices are more likely to be picked.

So a bridge could give out hints like "I am destructible by Strider blast" or "Striders can duck to pass under me." The Strider can then choose either or both.

Stan R.
 
I think it blowed it up because Valve ****ing told it to. They can't have THAT advanced AI yet.. ffs
 
UKchaos2 said:
It is unscripted - in the finished game. Despite what was reported to happen in the leak, do you honestly believe the final product features doors that open by themselves?

Come on, use your common sense.
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100% agreed.
 
CrazyHarij said:
I think it blowed it up because Valve ****ing told it to. They can't have THAT advanced AI yet.. ffs
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Well I think they do. By reading your posts, just the fact that the entities in the game are behaving in a unexpected way, that's advanced AI.

When Doug said that they've put the strider in City 17 and watched it go walk around and do things, it's advanced AI too. If it isn't, well why they did it, if they all knew what the strider was going to do?


Gajdycz said:
id be funny if the strider started dance and gabes like WTF?
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LOL!!! :LOL: :LOL:
 
I agree with one of the previous posters about scripting being confused with a set of triggers.

There has to be some element of scripting in the game for it to progress to its ultimate conclusion - otherwise the player would be free to do whatever he wanted and the game would never end.

With regards to triggered events - let me give you a couple of examples:

1. Knocking over the monitor in Kleiners lab. If you don't knock over the monitor, you don't hear Kleiner say "oh would you be careful". This is a triggered event. You knock it over - he says the line. Simple.

2. The apartment block scene from this years e3. You don't have to go into the apartments on the lower level. Gordon could have just continued down the hall and up the stairs. But when he did go in he triggered the responses from the people inside.

The man in the upstairs apartment who says "psst - over here..." would probably be scripted and be there so you don't get captured by the combine who are searching the apartments.

My two cents...
 
sounds cool but I have to see it with my own eyes to believe it. :borg:
 
CrazyHarij said:
I think it blowed it up because Valve ****ing told it to. They can't have THAT advanced AI yet.. ffs
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I 'spose we'll have to wait and see. Y'know until the game is out, until it's finished, completed, done, etc etc. What if you're wrong? You'll be eating your socks. :dork:
 
I think that the AI that VALVe is working on is truly going to be phenominal, all of you doubters are going to get the game and play for the first 5 minutes and have your mind's blown when the combine manage to trap you or flank you, or do something equally amazing.

There will be no turning back people. HL2 is coming.
 
A lot of AI is done by level designers...

Like this:

I design a city map, I want to have a Combine with a Sniper gun in the area. I designate various 'sniper points' on my map, I also designate various pathways (areas the AI can go) and various no-go areas. The map editor can then compile route paths with estimates on time to take to reach areas, the AI can no use these routes to move to a 'sniper spot'. To enhance the AI further there could be properties that would cause the AI to change positions (this could be triggered by other AI encountering the players, a basic if player is in x area sniper must move to y sniper spot). Noe if I drop the Combine in the map he will run to the nearest sniper spot, and possibly change positions when the player position is reported by other AI characters.

The strider blowing up the bridge unexpectadly - The mapper created a city, designated all the walkthrough areas, destructable structures (maybe the mapper thought a player could shoot the bridge with a rocket launcher and cause a few combine soldiers to fall off), various no-go areas. The editing program calculates the routes and the time each particular route will take for the AI to reach a area. The strider was dumped in the map and probably told to patrol the area, so it selects a area and uses the fastest route calculation to get to the area, it encounters a obstruction that it can bypass, it is also aware the obstacle is destructable so it calculates based on time (crouch walk takes x units of time, destroy obstacle take < X units of time) and fires at the obstacle, but the obstacle is not cleared (destructable structures may be layered over non-destructable areas that are not visible till the destructable area is removed) so it utilises its other mode of movement (crouch walk) to bypass the obstacle.

Basically the AI is guided by hints, triggers and conditions that limit the scope of its potential actions to allow for smooth gameplay, and a lot of it is done at the map design level.
 
Um, most of it is designed to be broken. Don't get so specific.
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No, only specific sections of levels can be broken. Fully destructable scenery is too cpu extensive.

The level designer defines which things are breakable and the A.I is given hints. The strider isnt told to destroy the bridge, its just given an option to.
 
Kazuki_Fuse said:
I 'spose we'll have to wait and see. Y'know until the game is out, until it's finished, completed, done, etc etc. What if you're wrong? You'll be eating your socks. :dork:
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/me buys alot of pepper and spices
 
I hope it was unexpected, that'd be coool. :D

Flatiator said:
that scene was entirely scripted...
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That was a wonderful first post. :hmph: Great way to make friends here.
 
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