the death penalty is barbaric

[laslo]

I think capital punishment can be justified for pedophiles.

I mean, who really wants to pay for their electricity, clothing, food, etc while they're in prison? Even then, the majority of them are just turned loose back into in the general population, free to roam and groom children.

Or maybe I just live too close to Texas

 

[FrostedxB]

does forgiveness mean anything to you?

Not really.

 

[MattyDienhoff]

I never thought "revenge" or "satisfaction for the victims" entered into the reasoning behind capital punishment, because they have nothing to do with justice. As I've always understood it, capital punishment is about removing from society an individual who cannot function in that society and who is and always will be a danger to it. A serial killer, for example. No one I've spoken to on this issue advocates capital punishment in any but the most severe cases.

With all that said, I am against capital punishment, I just get frustrated when people sidetrack the debate with all this irrelevant claptrap about revenge, the satisfaction of the victims, or forgiveness of those accused. It is not the law's place to satisfy a victim's thirst for revenge or to forgive. The sole purpose of law should be to ensure that justice is served. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm against capital punishment because:

1. There is no significant economic benefit one way (execution) or the other (life imprisonment).
2. There is no compelling evidence (that I know of) that capital punishment acts as any kind of significant deterrent to crime.
3. Putting criminals that might otherwise be executed to work would repay their debt to society more than executing them ever could.
4. Most importantly, there is always the possibility of wrongful conviction. Obviously, convicting someone for a crime they did not commit is a reprehensible mistake no matter what their subsequent sentence is, but the death penalty isn't reversible. If someone is imprisoned for so many years and subsequently found innocent, they can at least be vindicated and live the remainder of their life in freedom.

 

[Raziaar]

I have no problem with the death penalty when it's done against suspects where there is no question of their guilt.

I do have a problem with it when people try to do it anyway, even though it may be obviously apparent somebody might be innocent, like the travesty that happened here in Texas recently with Rick Perry.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Why should [rehabilitation] be [the point of the justice system]?

Even if you completely discount the welfare of the prisoners themselves (maybe you say 'they don't count as humans anymore because they violated the rights of others', presuming you have enormous faithi n the law), rehabilitation should be the goal. A truly rehabilitated criminal isn't a threat. They will no longer violate others' rights. They will contribute to society and help old ladies across the street and pet kittens and be nice and so on and so forth. This has to be the ultimate goal of any 'civilised' (as opposed to 'barbaric') justice system: reducing the incidence of crime. Not 'punishment'. Punishment is stupid. But ensuring the positive result that, in the future, less crimes will happen. One way of doing this would be to dispose of people permanently - kill them or imprison them forever. But this is impractical and for the most part unjust. So it's probably a good idea to try and minimise re-offence. This means rehabilitation, and not (for example) having a prison system which brutalises people, forces them to form connections to insider criminal gangs, and leaves them without the skills or opportunities to find legitimate work once they get out. That would be counterproductive!

Exactly, and it shouldn't be because bullets are cheaper.

So death row inmates shouldn't get a chance to appeal (and it's the long appeals process which costs money)? NICE

An alternative solution might be to not have, by a very big margin, the world's highest proportion of population incarcerated.

EDIT: Matty sums up my beliefs on capital punishment pretty well. It has no evident benefits.

 

[Sheepo]

I should've clarified, I meant why should the death penalty be used in cases of extreme crime. Your post is pretty good anyway though.

 

[Sparta]

I do have a problem with it when people try to do it anyway, even though it may be obviously apparent somebody might be innocent, like the travesty that happened here in Texas recently with Rick Perry.

and now he's trying to stall any progress in the investigation into whether or not they executed an innocent man (which they did). I generally try avoid calling people names, but any politician who tries to cover up the state sanctioned death of an innocent man for his own political gain, is a reprehensible human being who should not be in power.

For anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

and for anyone who has the time, I seriously recommend reading this piece by the New Yorker which re-ignited the investigation http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann

 

[Saturos]

Jesus christ, Saturos... stay out of politics.

Your just butthurt because you haven't been able to get anyone to agree with your opinions of late so f**k off. I shall continue to stay until a better thread elsewhere is started.

Solaris, you're a f**ing commie too and a hypocrite at that. That said, I give you a big raspberry..


:>P

nah nah.

 

[Krynn72]

I hate you Saturos. I've always tried to not hate you, and just assume you're an uneducated tool who doesn't know what hes saying, but god damn, you're beyond ignorant.

Anyways, capital punishment is a bad idea no matter how you cut it. Economically, socially, and morally. Give them life in ass-rape prison, find something they can do to be productive and help the society they disrupted.

Or give them the option to /suicide

 

[Stigmata]

If capital punishment were really a deterrent, people would stop committing the crimes. But they don't, so it isn't, so we should try something else.

Lengthy prison sentences don't seem to be a deterrent either, and in many cases (like someone else said, I forget who) it results in forcing criminals to integrate even further into the world of crime. Rehabilitation is the only thing that seems to work.

In issues of politics, ethics, and morality, I like to think of how you would treat a child in the schoolyard, or at home. If he or she does something bad (a crime), what works better: isolating them from society for an extended period of time (prison), hitting them (capital punishment), or teaching them what they did wrong and what they should do instead (rehabilitation)?

 

[Sulkdodds]

If capital punishment were really a deterrent, people would stop committing the crimes. But they don't, so it isn't, so we should try something else.

More than this, and beyond common sense assumptions (ie, nobody thinks they'll get caught, crimes of passion, etc), there's concrete evidence that deterrence doesn't work. In the USA the murder rate is actually higher in states without the death penalty. Various studies show that deterrence isn't usually an operating factor and that when it is, the death penalty does not significantly deter.

If you abandon the batshit irrational arguments like "hur hur child rapists deserve to die" then you only have a few things left in support of the death penalty - deterrence, permanent disposal, financial burden, etc. And when you look at them in turn each one melts away, leaving nothing on which to build a case.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Could dickbar kindly post in this thread so that we can claim the death penalty is barbarbarbarbarbaric?

 

[barbarbarbarbar]

Could dickbar kindly post in this thread so that we can claim the death penalty is barbarbarbarbarbaric?

You're too late.

EDIT:**** you.

 

[Sheepo]

More than this, and beyond common sense assumptions (ie, nobody thinks they'll get caught, crimes of passion, etc), there's concrete evidence that deterrence doesn't work. In the USA the murder rate is actually higher in states without the death penalty.

I assume 'without' is supposed to be 'with'?

 

[Krynn72]

Yeah, I caught that too. His link and the context of his argument suggests he meant to say that, or that it was "lower in states without the death penalty"

We caught your mistake Mr.Sulk, you clumsy baffoon! Now you're not allowed to make the barbarbarbarbarbaric joke.

Also, horray! My dickbars nickname stuck! I was the first to call him that!

 

[15357]

You know, maybe that's why they have the death penalty. More murderers, more people that think we should put them out permanantly.

Anyway, the death penalty pretty much exists because voters feel satisfied or better when the State offs a dog rapist or something. Everything else is pretty much an excuse - just like the justice system. You hear on the news that a pedophille got hanged last night, you say "Good Riddance" and go on your day. When you hear that he's costing you tax money instead of being dead, you start to whine. That whining really irks the politicians in charge, hence the death penalty. Oh, of course you guys might not do it, but come on, there's always some case which every opportunistic politician wants to take advantage of to further his career. A girl gets raped and had half her intestines drawn out - you want the perp dead, but don't want to do it yourself, therefore the death penalty. This is the reason we have 80% of laws.

I advocate the death penalty, not because it satisfies me; a salt mine would take care of that. I advocate it because it's the ultimate tool of empowerment of the State.

Oh, and, because Amnesty International would go medieval on our asses if we tried to pull a 16hr salt mine stunt. It's not feasible anymore. So much for balancing things out. What's the point of isolating criminals with other criminals? So they can educate each other on how to become better criminals? We need to focus on rehab. But rehab costs money. So why can't they work to pay off that cost? If some are identified as rehab-impossible, why keep them alive? If they get life without parole, rehab is a waste, and therefore the justice system obviously thought rehab was impossible. So, with a criminal with no hope of being brought into the light, what better method of isolation than the death penalty?

Oh, of course we might get wrong sometimes. But that's another story. My head aches, and I'm becoming grouchy. Good night.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Your analysis of why we have the death penalty seems pretty thin and childish, Numbers.

But once again, we don't kill people as an alternative for them "costing you tax money". It costs plenty of tax money just to keep them alive while you give them the judicial procedure and appeals process that the severity of their sentence demands. Of course you'd probably be okay with cutting out all that 'human rights' flab and just hanging people the moment the guilty verdict is delivered.

Yeah, I caught that too. His link and the context of his argument suggests he meant to say that, or that it was "lower in states without the death penalty"

Damnit, you're correct. Should have been 'with'.

 

[13LACKBISHOP]

Even if you completely discount the welfare of the prisoners themselves (maybe you say 'they don't count as humans anymore because they violated the rights of others', presuming you have enormous faithi n the law), rehabilitation should be the goal. A truly rehabilitated criminal isn't a threat. They will no longer violate others' rights. They will contribute to society and help old ladies across the street and pet kittens and be nice and so on and so forth. This has to be the ultimate goal of any 'civilised' (as opposed to 'barbaric') justice system: reducing the incidence of crime. Not 'punishment'. Punishment is stupid. But ensuring the positive result that, in the future, less crimes will happen. One way of doing this would be to dispose of people permanently - kill them or imprison them forever. But this is impractical and for the most part unjust. So it's probably a good idea to try and minimise re-offence. This means rehabilitation, and not (for example) having a prison system which brutalises people, forces them to form connections to insider criminal gangs, and leaves them without the skills or opportunities to find legitimate work once they get out. That would be counterproductive!

So death row inmates shouldn't get a chance to appeal (and it's the long appeals process which costs money)? NICE

An alternative solution might be to not have, by a very big margin, the world's highest proportion of population incarcerated.

EDIT: Matty sums up my beliefs on capital punishment pretty well. It has no evident benefits.

'punishment'. Punishment is stupid.

Some people know what they are doing is wrong and proper punishment keeps them from doing it or doing it again. Without punishment there is no real reason to obey the law. Punishment is the reason people play by the rules. Prison is supposed to be bad. The fact that its so bad is a motivation to not go back or go there in the first place. This is one of the reasons crime in youths are so high. They are not punished enough. They do not do enough time and or either not do any time at all(parents and society are more improtant but still). Some people are beyond a good talking to. Punishment keeps people in line. I am not saying I am against rehabilitation. I am all for it. It makes sense. But you need to be punished while you are in there. Without rehabilitation it would lead to a lack of skills and mixing with the wrong type when you get out. But it has to be bad. Our prisons are soft. Prison sentences are too short and they get it easy when they are in prison. These are some of the problems with our system. Doing time in prison is a form of punishment so in a way I don't understand. Prison sentences in the past did not focus on rehabilitation and they still had a positive effect on crime because they punished the prisoners with prison sentences. Rehabilitation should just be some of the things which contribute to a good system but without proper punishment it will fail. I think the uneducated should be educated while in there told what is right and wrong and even seek counseling but there has to be a bigger focus on punishment. There has to be more to it than keeping them in a classroom. Even prisons that focus on rehabilitation have them locked in cells for a long time. A say make them work insead of being locked up in cells. Keeps em occupied, makes money and it sucks for them. I think I was being way to harsh when I said 6 to 1 am. Changed my mind. I get carried away. That WOULD be inhumane. But anyway my point remains and I still think its a good idea to have them work in prisons instead of doing nothing. All rehabilitation and no punishment would be soft and there has to be a reason to not go to prison in the first place. Proper punishment and clamping down on small things and making them do time is the best way to get rid of crime. You commit a crime you serve time. The more crimes you commit the more time you serve. Crime stops being a career option if you serve time for it and get punished. Rehabilitation is an aid. It helps by helping them fit in when they get out and get a better job. Nothing more.

 

[Tagaziel]

Your analysis of why we have the death penalty seems pretty thin and childish, Numbers.

Isn't Numbers childish by definition?

 

[lord_raken]

I think the death penalty should be used only for the most despicable crimes and for the most dangerous criminals. I think that we use it way too often here in the US (especially Texas). Human life should never be taken lightly and for too long we have used the death penalty too hastily, but some people are just too dangerous to let live.

 

[Solaris]

Some people know what they are doing is wrong and proper punishment keeps them from doing it or doing it again. Without punishment there is no real reason to obey the law. Punishment is the reason people play by the rules. Prison is supposed to be bad. The fact that its so bad is a motivation to not go back or go there in the first place. This is one of the reasons crime in youths are so high. They are not punished enough. They do not do enough time and or either not do any time at all(parents and society are more improtant but still). Some people are beyond a good talking to. Punishment keeps people in line. I am not saying I am against rehabilitation. I am all for it. It makes sense. But you need to be punished while you are in there. Without rehabilitation it would lead to a lack of skills and mixing with the wrong type when you get out. But it has to be bad. Our prisons are soft. Prison sentences are too short and they get it easy when they are in prison. These are some of the problems with our system. Doing time in prison is a form of punishment so in a way I don't understand. Prison sentences in the past did not focus on rehabilitation and they still had a positive effect on crime because they punished the prisoners with prison sentences. Rehabilitation should just be some of the things which contribute to a good system but without proper punishment it will fail. I think the uneducated should be educated while in there told what is right and wrong and even seek counseling but there has to be a bigger focus on punishment. There has to be more to it than keeping them in a classroom. Even prisons that focus on rehabilitation have them locked in cells for a long time. A say make them work insead of being locked up in cells. Keeps em occupied, makes money and it sucks for them. I think I was being way to harsh when I said 6 to 1 am. Changed my mind. I get carried away. That WOULD be inhumane. But anyway my point remains and I still think its a good idea to have them work in prisons instead of doing nothing. All rehabilitation and no punishment would be soft and there has to be a reason to not go to prison in the first place. Proper punishment and clamping down on small things and making them do time is the best way to get rid of crime. You commit a crime you serve time. The more crimes you commit the more time you serve. Crime stops being a career option if you serve time for it and get punished. Rehabilitation is an aid. It helps by helping them fit in when they get out and get a better job. Nothing more.

PARAGRAPHS. USE THEM.

 

[Viperidae]

I think Numbers and others would enjoy Starship Troopers.

Only one problem with their self-assured justification of corporeal punishment: humans aren't dogs.

 

[The Monkey]

i suppose they feel that the line between being in prison and being dead is a large one...i can definitely see it being a deterrent.

Empirical evidence speaks against it, though. The US, the only western country with the capital punishment, has the highest crime rate in the first world. It has, for example, three times as many prisoners per capita as Sweden. So they must be doing something wrong.

 

[15357]

Your analysis of why we have the death penalty seems pretty thin and childish, Numbers.

But once again, we don't kill people as an alternative for them "costing you tax money". It costs plenty of tax money just to keep them alive while you give them the judicial procedure and appeals process that the severity of their sentence demands. Of course you'd probably be okay with cutting out all that 'human rights' flab and just hanging people the moment the guilty verdict is delivered.

Damnit, you're correct. Should have been 'with'.

I think that way because it's the only reasonable explanation on why the death penalty exists, at least for me.

I think Numbers and others would enjoy Starship Troopers.

Only one problem with their self-assured justification of corporeal punishment: humans aren't dogs.

Yes, I 've read it. Loved it. Probably formed the basis for my way of thought.

And yes. We're more capable. Unfortunately we both respond basically to the stimulus of pain: avoid it.

 

[Viperidae]

And yes. We're more capable. Unfortunately we both respond basically to the stimulus of pain: avoid it.

On an immediate level, yes. But how many times have you gone to the doctor or the dentist with the knowledge that there will be pain? Our ability to rationalise decisions pre/post pain is what sets us apart.

 

[15357]

On an immediate level, yes. But how many times have you gone to the doctor or the dentist with the knowledge that there will be pain? Our ability to rationalise decisions pre/post pain is what sets us apart.

But we go to the doctor/dentist as a choice between pain and more pain.

We choose the one with ultimately less pain involved, or sometimes, options that doesn't include death. (As a general rule, anyway) Yes, dogs don't have that kind of ability. Therefore they're harder to train than human beings.

 

[Viperidae]

But we go to the doctor/dentist as a choice between pain and more pain.

We choose the one with ultimately less pain involved, or sometimes, options that doesn't include death. (As a general rule, anyway) Yes, dogs don't have that kind of ability. Therefore they're harder to train than human beings.

Um. Right. Because braces are more painful than not having braces. Or chemotherapy is much less painful than the cancer one didn't even know about until a checkup.

Personally, I go to the dentist for cosmetic reasons, and to the doctor to prevent myself from dying. I had braces that made my teethe ache for 5 years so I could have a straight mouth of whites. I got the annoyingly painful swine flu vaccine (thin arms = deep needle penetration) because of the slight risk of death, not because I was bemoaning the idea of being bedridden and sniffling for days.

Yes, the entire medical field exists for pain reduction.

 

[15357]

Didn't I just say to avoid death? :/

 

[Noodle]

Um. Right. Because braces are more painful than not having braces. Or chemotherapy is much less painful than the cancer one didn't even know about until a checkup.

Personally, I go to the dentist for cosmetic reasons, and to the doctor to prevent myself from dying. I had braces that made my teethe ache for 5 years so I could have a straight mouth of whites. I got the annoyingly painful swine flu vaccine (thin arms = deep needle penetration) because of the slight risk of death, not because I was bemoaning the idea of being bedridden and sniffling for days.

Yes, the entire medical field exists for pain reduction.

The braces are LESS painful than years of social rejection and heartbreak caused by having hideous teeth.

 

[Stigmata]

Also painful corrective dental surgery in your 20's.

 

[15357]

Yes, by pain I fully well intended the meaning of emotional pain to be put into it. Like I say, "Guilt is but pain of the heart."

 

[Krynn72]

Your heart doesnt have emotions. Your saying should be "Guilt, and all other human emotional constructs are but a pain of the brain."

It even rhymes.

 

[15357]

Oh Krynn, you're so full of shit. Next thing you know, you'll be saying that the world is round and we revolve around the sun.

 

[Saturos]

I think Numbers and others would enjoy Starship Troopers.

Only one problem with their self-assured justification of corporeal punishment: humans aren't dogs.

If they act like dogs, they should be treated like dogs. *no offense Krynn*

I'm in for corporal punishment instead of capital punishment then. 20 lashings a day until they are released 25 years later. If they complain, then use a scourge instead of a whip. If they try to revolt because of cruel treatment or strike an officer, then it's 20 lashes to the face that day instead of on the back every other normal day. HOW'S THAT FOR BARBARIC?!?!

Believe me, if I was in charge of the correction system and there wasn't so much PC, then I would promise to make their stay at my lovely resort prison "cruel and unusual".

 

[15357]

When I take over the world, I'm gonna make Saturos head of the Department of Justice and Corrections. (aka Dept. Pain for Bad People)


Or minister of the Ministry of Love. Whichever sounds better.

 

[Tagaziel]

If they act like dogs, they should be treated like dogs. *no offense Krynn*

I'm in for corporal punishment instead of capital punishment then. 20 lashings a day until they are released 25 years later. If they complain, then use a scourge instead of a whip. If they try to revolt because of cruel treatment or strike an officer, then it's 20 lashes to the face that day instead of on the back every other normal day. HOW'S THAT FOR BARBARIC?!?!

Believe me, if I was in charge of the correction system and there wasn't so much PC, then I would promise to make their stay at my lovely resort prison "cruel and unusual".

Got any more infantile cruelty revelations to share with us? How about we start whipping children if they misbehave? 20 lashings a day until they leave home 25 years later a model citizen! If they complain, then use a scourge instead of a whip. If they try to revolt because of cruel treatment or talk back to a parent, then it's 20 lashes to the face that day instead of on the back every other normal day!

Seriously, grow the **** up.

 

[Saturos]

Got any more infantile cruelty revelations to share with us? How about we start whipping children if they misbehave? 20 lashings a day until they leave home 25 years later a model citizen! If they complain, then use a scourge instead of a whip. If they try to revolt because of cruel treatment or talk back to a parent, then it's 20 lashes to the face that day instead of on the back every other normal day!

Seriously, grow the **** up.

I'll make sure that you'll be my first guest when numbers conquers humanity. OH YEAH, can't wait. :naughty:


...and besides, you got it all wrong. I would NEVER do that to children. You think I'm some kind of monster or something? I'll just incarcerate their parents instead for failing to raise them properly.

Don't worry, the beatings will only be reserved for the most heinious of crimes, so unless the kid killed someone maliciously (i.e. not life or death self-defense), then the parents will be ok as long as they don't try anything stupid while serving time.

 

[Sparta]

You know we stopped corporal punishment because it is barbaric and it isn't a deterrent, right?

 

[Eejit]

Yeah, but it would make dragonshirt feel better.

 

[Saturos]

Yeah, but it would make dragonshirt feel better.

^This

that's the only reason any of you would exist in my utopia and so would be you sole purpose. TO PLEASE ME!!!

....err I meant number's utopia. I'm not already planning a coup behind your back numbers. Really!