The future: how can the community work with Valve in the future?

[Apos]

I've already mailed Gabe asking his thoughts on this topic, but chances are he won't have time to respond, so I thought it might make for an interesting topic for us all to consider.

Basically, we are moving into new territory here: we all know how things ARE, how there is a developer, and then there is a fan community that is sort of hangers on, there are retail gamers that don't really know much about the fan community and just buy games from time to time, and then there are modders who are sort of a midway point between developers and fans: amateur developers who arise out the community to help enrich both it and the developers by essentially adding value to their games. Valve is likely to start supporting these amateur devs even more by allowing them to charge small fees for their mods, if they choose.

But what can you envision for the future? How could things change so that the divisions between Valve and the fan community vanish? How could we coordinate our efforts better to exchange helpful information, and even to help each other out in our respective goals?

If Valve were to eventually go it alone as a developer releasing its own games mostly over Steam, could the fan community come to serve as an actual and involved part of their marketing strategy: actively and successfully help advertise the game for them (since it benefits us as Valve gamers to grow the community), help provide support and good word of mouth? Are there any roles we could play that we aren't currently?

What possibilities can you see as to how our community can join up with Valve's efforts to achieve neat new things: make them a lot of money so they can continue doing what they do,a nd provide cool new experiences for fans and so on.

I think the "Source World" community project is one sort of "line crossing" example: our community could at some point come to exist partly within games that Valve creates (especially since the new GUI allows things like accessing web content and messageboards from within a game). But surely there are more general great ideas that we could come up with: revolutionary new directions that nobody has yet even imagined. New visions of partnerships between developer and fan. Network connections nobody has ever dreamed of.

Our collective brains are surely better than anyone's alone.

Anyway, this thread is for your ideas as they relate to us and HL2 and beyond, as both HL2 the game and HL2 the community both evolve and grow: and hopefully innovate strange new paths that nobody today has yet even envisioned.

 

[Raziaar]

By hiring me onto their workforce? Hrm. That works in my books.

 

[Apos]

Well, sure, I'd love to get hired too. I mean, I'm sure Valve is looking to expand their business into social science statistics, public administration management, and ethical philosophy right? Right Valve? Isn't a position opening up in social science philosophy?

Seriously tho, part of this is what we can do for Valve, WITHOUT getting officially hired or paid directly by Valve or necessarily getting anything in return other than helping the community grow and evolve.

 

[Stormy]

I guess modding is one of the best ways. If there are enough good mods, as seen with HL, people will go out and buy the game so they can play the mods.

Perhaps some kind of HL2.net community mod

 

[KagePrototype]

One example of this sort of thing happening is Valve putting third party mods and games under the official games list in Steam, e.g. Codename Gordon, Sven Coop and Natural Selection (the last two have yet to added, but they will in the future).

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Perhaps some kind of HL2.net community mod

Like... Source World? :bounce:
(See sig 4 link.)

 

[Apos]

Well come on, seriously: do you think we could at least do some good as far as helping to market the game?

And there's always the aspect of players: the better (as in, nicer, cooler to get to know, more helpful, fun to play with) the players are on various online games, the more people will want to play them. Could we coordinate special tags (Natural Selection, for instance, has special icons for various people in the game) that would help coordinate and community rank better behaved players and designate certain people as "guides" to help out new players?

 

[Apos]

I think Sourceworld is one neat way to introduce the game to new people. Especially if Valve is really into the idea of offering HLTV for free, so that people could observe our in game community before being convinced to buy the game and become part of it.

 

[FoxDie]

I do think that Steam can be developed into something great, but we have to keep the in-store boxed copy element alive to serve the more casual gamer. There is also a developing phobia among casual internet users, who are wary about downloading anything out of fear that they may get a virus. A level of simplicity must be maintained in this business, so I don't see Valve going all-online as a possibility in the near future.

I think our community as a whole serves as a very good information spreader. I like the idea of games being promoted by word of mouth, not just by mass media methods. This would aide in the creation of an all-online Valve, but I don't see society as completely prepared for that yet. Despite the fact that Steam is a relatively simple concept (that has the potential developed into something much more complex) even installing games is sometimes percieved as too much work by the casual gamer. I have friends that own no PC games, because they think they are too complicated to maintain and install. Therefore they buy consoles, and they have a sense of security there.

I believe the community already serves as a large advertising campaign, so to speak. I have informed many of my friends about HL2, and have talked many of them into buying the game (doesn't take much talking after they see the E3 videos ) But yours is a good question that deserves examination. How could the community become more of an integral part of Valve? I am looking forward to seeing how this thread developes.

 

[figge]

A thing (atleat when it comes to communication between fans - developer on forums is:
Everyone should be able to read answers, but only mods (for example) can ask questions... why?
There alot of idiots... even on this forum

 

[Apos]

I do think that Steam can be developed into something great, but we have to keep the in-store boxed copy element alive to serve the more casual gamer.

Definately: the retail angle isn't going to vanish ANYTIME soon. But then, we can help out there too. First of all, helping to build a great online community will help get the game a good reputation and keep it going for a long time. Second of all, we can help advertise the game ourselves to some extent in the real world, whether by wearing HL2 merchandise, putting up posters, or just spreading the word.

I have friends that own no PC games, because they think they are too complicated to maintain and install.

Well, we could always offer to help them learn... but then HL2 is coming to consoles as well (not sure whether the online portions will in any way hook-up though).

I believe the community already serves as a large advertising campaign, so to speak.

Definately. I think the fact that Valve already seems to recognize this and take it into account is part of what clued me in to thinking about this topic. They are obviously thinking a lot about it from their end, as it has impacted their business incredibly (Counter-Strike alone has given them all a great deal more flexibility to fulfill their dreams than if HL had been just another come and go game). We can probably also think of things from our end that they haven't yet hit upon.

 

[Apos]

A thing (atleat when it comes to communication between fans - developer on forums is: Everyone should be able to read answers, but only mods (for example) can ask questions... why?
There alot of idiots... even on this forum

Well, I was thinking about this as well, at least in terms of email. The main problem I see with limiting channels of communication is that I doubt Valve wants to limit their email system so that only certain people can mail them: they seem to like like taking in all sorts of random inquires and answering them. And not everyone wants to make their emails from Valve public, so it's not like we could set up an explicit Q&A forum that would be all encompassing.

But I did think of two things that could help.

1) If Valve were to start using public/private key encryption, then it would be easy for anyone to verify that a particular posted email came from them (for those that don't know, for each mail they respond to, Valve would have a program that created a version of the email that was encrypted with their special "private" key that only they have. We as the public, however, are given their "public" key: the code with which we can decode any of these encrypted messages to make sure that the posted email message is really the same as the posted encrypted message that users would include. Only Valve would be able to properly create the encrypted messages that can be decoded with the public key). Then there wouldn't be any cause for dispute if someone claimed they got an answer from a Valve employee. Anyone at all, no matter how skeptical, could use the public key to confirm that they message was real.

2) Major community leaders could have access to a special "rumor hotline." This would be a secret email address at Valve (or a code in the subject line that sorts it at Valve's end) that any one of these people could use to mail Valve in the event of a big controversial rumor (as there have been many). This hotline would have high priority at Valve, and wouldn't get used that often (since only the responsible people would have access to it: they'd be the real gatekeepers). But this way they could alert Valve very quickly of rumors or disparaging claims or abuses of their software. And Valve could quickly respond to clear up the mess before it does much damage. Many many times in the past year there have been major controversies which have erupted almost out of nothing, but have hurt Valve's public image and thrown the community into bitter argument. A single clarifying email from Valve often can solve the problem. Yet, sometimes Valve isn't aware of the severity of certain problems. They can't be everywhere in the community at once: their priority is to their games. This system could streamline the emergency communication so that community leaders could help us all mobilize to combat rumors or other time-sensitive emergencies.

 

[FoxDie]

This system could streamline the emergency communication so that community leaders could help us all mobilize to combat rumors or other time-sensitive emergencies.

This is the best idea I have heard in weeks. It is easily understandable that with the sheer volume of e-mails that Vavle recieves, it can sometimes be hard for them to sift through all of them, and identify what major rumors and/or concerns are developing. This would be a great way to increase the communication between Valve and the community.

Well, we could always offer to help them learn... but then HL2 is coming to consoles as well (not sure whether the online portions will in any way hook-up though).

Even if offered help, I feel many of these individuals would still prefer to stick with their consoles. I have heard many individuals say that they hope HL2 will help to rejuvenate the PC gaming market. Even though the game is also coming out on Xbox, it will take them time to port the game to the system (Aren't the estimates somewhere around a year?) and that is ample time to get people interested in the game, and possibly reconsider their devotion to consoles. I am not, by any means, saying that consoles have no merit, but it seems to me that the PC gaming community is much more active. True, there are certain aspects to consoles that make them worthwhile, but I see the PC as more of a media center, with the possibly to achieve much greater feats, and has the potential to help revolutionize gaming more quickly.

That's all I can think of for now, I'm off to bed, it's late here in the States (3:30 AM where I am.)

Cheers :cheers:

 

[Apos]

I am not, by any means, saying that consoles have no merit, but it seems to me that the PC gaming community is much more active. True, there are certain aspects to consoles that make them worthwhile, but I see the PC as more of a media center, with the possibly to achieve much greater feats, and has the potential to help revolutionize gaming more quickly.

It does seem as if consoles will someday soon join the PC world rather than the other way around. But you're right: at least for now, PC gamers have much more flexibility to create communities and organize, not to mention the tremendous power of mods to enhance a game.

 

[Cybernoid]

If Valve were to eventually go it alone as a developer releasing its own games mostly over Steam

That won't happen. Only a fraction of people have a credit card. Valve would lose most of its customers.

Valve is likely to start supporting these amateur devs even more by allowing them to charge small fees for their mods, if they choose.

Mods that no one will play. Again, no credit cards...

 

[Apos]

That won't happen. Only a fraction of people have a credit card. Valve would lose most of its customers.

Well, it wouldn't be Valve, it would be individual developers taking that risk. And if parents use their credit cards to buy 50$ games for their kids, why not a 5$ treat every once and awhile?

Furthermore, there could certainly be all sorts of different systems to work it out. For instance, maybe you could buy, at a retail store, the rights to enable 4 amateur mods (sort of like a gift coupon for the online purchase price of the mods). Or these mods sell both retail and over steam, just like Gunman Chronicles, TFC, CS, and other mods did: only without necessarily having to be bought by Valve first. Or maybe Valve even sells such rights with their retail games (i.e. you buy a slightly more expensive version of HL2, which comes with "coupons" redeemable for two mods)

I don't think it's crazy or impossible. And while credit cards are the only option at present, more systems can be added in the future. Parents could easily set up some sort of PayPal allowance service for their kids, for instance.

Besides, this is the FUTURE we're talking/speculating about. I imagine that as financial services expand, there will come to be debit cards targeted at underage users who can't have normal credit cards: their parents can control their finances, but since you can do so much more with credit/debit cards, it's easier than having kids lug cash around. Micropayments may not be feasible today, but they are inevitable.

Mods that no one will play. Again, no credit cards...

Whether you get your cash from your parents or have them buy it with their credit card either retail or online, what's the difference? Most people that don't have credit cards are young enough that they need at least permission to buy new games anyways.

 

[phantomdesign]

This looks like an insane fan-boy thread. You want to support Valve? Buy the game. You want to support them more? Join a MOD team. Want to support them more? Get a life.

 

[Dalamari]

If you really want to support them don't join a mod team that is making a dod/cs rip-off and call it "different" because it doesn't have crosshairs or something.

 

[Apos]

This looks like an insane fan-boy thread. You want to support Valve? Buy the game. You want to support them more? Join a MOD team. Want to support them more? Get a life.

If you just want to denigrate a thread topic, why post in it? What's the point of wasting people's time?

I'm not interested in anyone's conventional fandom, I'm interested in what the future could bring as far as the community and Valve functioning better in tandem to benefit everyone. Eight years ago, nobody could have imagined that there would be central gathering places that people from all over the world could come to share information and network around specific games, let alone end users modifying them to create whole new products. Few imagined that entire online worlds were possible, or that fan communities could help make or break products. I'm interested in where all this will go in the future in the context of Source and HL2, because from the perspective of the past, the present proved to be pretty darn interesting for HL1, no?

But if you think things like "Source World" are just pathetic fandom, or working out better ways to communicate and integrate with Valve's willingness to exchange info with fans, then hey, don't participate. You'll be safe then. Easy as that.

 

[smsKONG]

Well said apos, I regularly come here for info and while I don't often post; I am thankful for the info I can pick up and the methods you have suggested for streamlining communication to and from valve sound like bonza ideas.
As for people flaming this: You're the ones who should get a life- I mean if you're not even interested in the ideas why bother posting abuse here, unless of course it's because you've got absolutely nowt else to do.......

 

[RogueShadow]

Good stuff.
I personally have told many of my friends of HL2, and showed binks to those I could. Not a lot of people around here seem to have broadband, but the numbers are increasing fast. So yeah, i'm the resident "computer guy" in my circle's.

 

[FoxDie]

This looks like an insane fan-boy thread. You want to support Valve? Buy the game. You want to support them more? Join a MOD team. Want to support them more? Get a life.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."

-Albert Einstein

 

[Apos]

I am thankful for the info I can pick up and the methods you have suggested for streamlining communication to and from valve sound like bonza ideas.

Well, mostly, I started this thread to encourage other people to think up and post their crazy ideas! Let's hear em'

I've also appreciate some guesses as to where companies like Valve will go next with their products. I think we've all considered the idea of communities not only online, but ingame. And, as I think has been mentioned, things like Steam could be a perfect platforms for MMOG-type games (don't necessarily have to be RPGs). If anyone's ever played Second Life (I tried it once for free), you'll know that it's entirely possible to have games where the online workd, including geometry and textures and scripts and even sound, can be created in real time by the players using their own custom content which is then streamed to all clients looking at this content (the neatest things from this method are people being able to create their own virtual art galleries or minigames for others to play). Again, Steam might be a great platform to head in this sort of direction (a MP world defined in by user uploaded content), and a mod like this might make a really creative and different MP addition to HL2. We already have custom sprays, why not custom textures? Custom models with scripting? Uploaded to the server and then downloaded on the fly?

I've also considered the idea of a HL2 based mods/games that blur the line between SP and MMOGs. Imagine a single player game that's as open as Stalker in regards to the gameplay and objectives, and still mostly runs on AI with sophisticated NPCs providing the brunt of the story, but the backend of the game (i.e. some enhanced version of steam) works to from time to time to randomly (or perhaps, deviously, not so randomly) connect your SP game world to another player's SP game world. Both or the several of you real players would all be playing a true and deep SP game, but linked into the same world for the time being (granted, the plot would have to be such that these temporary co-joinments, along with people dropping, and it always being new people, could be explained without fudging the game world).
The social interactions between you and just a very few people, all of you trying to operate not in a pointless fragfest, but as players within a larger story, would be much more intense that people are normally used to. And small scale MP/SP hybrids like this would also overcome the MMORPG problem of how you never feel like the hero in a "big" story, since the game world in MMORPGs tends to have so many players that there are litterally waiting lines to go kill the endlessly resurrected bosses. You might compete with fellow players, you might team up with them. You might never even run into them, but encounter evidence of their effects on your game world.

HL2! Fan Communities! Ideas people! They're fun!

I should also re-iterate the importance of the idea that HL2TV could be offered free, along with the free download of Steam. Allowing prospective buyers to look in on games, look in on ingame communities and such, would work wonders for hooking them in, making them buy the games, and so on.

 

[The Mullinator]

This may have already been said as I have not read everything yet but, oh well.

One of the largest factors of HL2 that will attract players is the multiplayer aspect. In this case multiplayer is really one of the main things that needs to be promoted. To me the best way of doing this is not actually going around advertising, but to instead ensure that the community is mature, helpful, and nice to new players. One of the major factors that prevented me from starting to play Counter-Strike was how I kept on hearing how immature the community was, how unfriendly it was to people who were new.

I suspect there was a very large number of people who had the same problem as me and so to ensure that a maximum number of people are willing to at least try HL2 multiplayer would be to ensure that the community does not go to the dogs and devolve into a chaotic anti-newbie flame fest. This can be done by ensuring that as soon as HL2 comes out (usually its the attitudes of the first players of a game that will shape its community) we discourage immaturity, help all new players whenever we can (if a new player is helped he/she will be more likely to help other newbies once he/she has become more experienced) and generally ensure that the community gets a very good reputation.

When it comes to online games and communities reputation really is a major factor in helping people decide whether they want to take part in it or not.

 

[Apos]

One of the major factors that prevented me from starting to play Counter-Strike was how I kept on hearing how immature the community was, how unfriendly it was to people who were new.

Good point. I think this is also, however, part of an aspect of the game itself. It's really competative: tempers flare when the last CT isn't very good and all the dead CTs are yelling about him, people get a lot of bravado going, and they talk big at each other and so on. In some ways, it would be hard to fix this problem in pubs, because ultimately, it's the admin's show to run the servers the way they like. I do think Valve might be able to help somewhat though, by creating a system like I mentioned before: make it easier for admins to give custom icons to certain players they want to designate as "guides" either on that server or globally: something a set between admins and regular players, whose role could be helping new players and encouraging good gameplay as opposed to shouting matches. There could even be some sort of rating system set up that would give people different icons as "cred" that they are well-behaved and helpful to new users, though probably not because of the chance for abuse.

I also think that different game design can affect things. If you only have a few options to interact with the world around you: shoot or be shot, then naturally you're not going to have much to do aside from bitch at people. As the number of potential interactions increases, the ability for people to more interesting and creative things, hopefully that'll at least give people other outlets than flamefests.

Course, then there's also the problem that a large portion of the players are like 12. You can't fix that.

 

[poseyjmac]

if steam supported paypal, it would make it easier for paying. you just need a bank account.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

Whether you get your cash from your parents or have them buy it with their credit card either retail or online, what's the difference? Most people that don't have credit cards are young enough that they need at least permission to buy new games anyways.

sure... but there are parents out there that don't own credit cards as well.. some pple don't get credit cards because they feel they won't be able to control their spending.. vaild reason me thinks.. (btw my mother does not have a credit card.. neither do i, in case u were wondering.)

just wanted to point out, some pple do not own credit cards, regardless of age.

 

[Apos]

just wanted to point out, some pple do not own credit cards, regardless of age.

That's what debit cards are for.

I do believe I remember hearing Valve discuss that they might add more payment options in the future. Support for debit cards would be a good idea, as would paypal. Only problem is that paypal charges ridiculous fees to people like Valve who want to use their service. So it's not exactly a win win per se.

 

[Aphal]

For instance, maybe you could buy, at a retail store, the rights to enable 4 amateur mods (sort of like a gift coupon for the online purchase price of the mods). Or these mods sell both retail and over steam, just like Gunman Chronicles, TFC, CS, and other mods did: only without necessarily having to be bought by Valve first. Or maybe Valve even sells such rights with their retail games (i.e. you buy a slightly more expensive version of HL2, which comes with "coupons" redeemable for two mods)

Mods are free. I wouldn't buy mods. We've been getting them free for years. CS and DoD are still free for HL1.

And people can't sell their mod without being bought by Valve, unless they're going to license the source engine.

 

[Apos]

Mods are free.

No reason they should have to be. Not all mods are free: some go retail. It's just that the current systems for them doing so are so clunky and disjointed that they end up having to do it through retail distributors and expensive boxed packages and so on.

I wouldn't buy mods.

You buy games (presumably). Why wouldn't you, in principle, be willing to pay a much lower price to buy and support a good mod? It would encourage mods to be more professional, support the creation of more and better mods, and s on.

We've been getting them free for years.

So? That's lucky for us, but it's not necessarily the best system for modmakers.

CS and DoD are still free for HL1.

Which, in part because of that, is much more expensive than other retail games of the same age. And I'm sure the price of HL2 will be higher than it would otherwise be if Valve hadn't spent so much money developing those mods or hiring their authors. At SOME point, everything costs somebody money. You may not notice it directly, but it impacts you whether you know it or not.

And people can't sell their mod without being bought by Valve, unless they're going to license the source engine.

Valve has already discussed changing all that. They will be letting people sell their mods via Steam for small prices, without having to buy a full development liscence. Benefits Valve, benefits the mod makers, and while you may not think so when paying an extra 5$ for something great, it probably benefits you too. Heck, a lot of mods currently run purely by the fact that they get enough donations to support development. That's nice, but it's not exactly a lasting system.

 

[The Mullinator]

Mods are free. I wouldn't buy mods. We've been getting them free for years. CS and DoD are still free for HL1.

And people can't sell their mod without being bought by Valve, unless they're going to license the source engine.

Valve has said in the past they are thinking of setting up a payment option using steam where to download some mods you will have to pay for it.

Whether you will have to pay for the mod is up to the mod developers though, they will upload their mods to the steam network and tell Valve if they want people to pay for it or not. Personally I don't really mind it if the price is decent and the mod itself is a very good piece of work. Alot of mods end up with so much good work and effort put in that they deserve to be paid, sure it isn't really a traditional mod anymore but its not like alot of these teams don't deserve some payment for their work.

Besides, the number of mods that will actually require payment will likely be very low as the majority of people who do such work do it for the experience, not the money. Plus if too many mods require payment then very few will be downloaded anyway.

 

[Aphal]

I don't see how that would work. Game companies have to license engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars to make games, if they don't code their own, and mod makers get to sell their mods for an almost free engine? Do other developers get access to the engine for like 50 bucks? I'd gladly donate to a mod that I like, but I don't get how what you're saying would work in the game industry.

 

[SubKamran]

There could even be some sort of rating system set up that would give people different icons as "cred" that they are well-behaved and helpful to new users, though probably not because of the chance for abuse.

I think that's a good idea. There probably is a way to do it so it couldn't be abused.

 

[hiln]

Source world will never materialize.

 

[Apos]

Game companies have to license engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars to make games, if they don't code their own, and mod makers get to sell their mods for an almost free engine?

Yes. But:

1) Not for very much money
2) Valve likely gets a huge cut
3) it's steam-only

Finally, small MP mods are different than a whole liscence, which allows you to make a whole new game with the engine without having to rely on Valve or buy HL2 to be able to play. People who buy Bloodlines will get just that: Bloodlines. Troika will get all the money, and control the direction of the code and so on. They get ALL the code, not just what mod makers get (the SDK). And for these smaller MP mods, however, you'll have to own a copy of HL2 to be able to play them. That's more money in Valve's pocket right there, and Valve is still the ultimate owner of the underlying engine: the mod maker can't sell it retail (unless Valve helps them out or they do choose to buy a liscence) only through Valve's system.

It makes sense to have this sort of mid-level arrangement between completely liscencing out the engine to a different company that wants to make its own game, and just having vanilla HL2 with no mods.

 

[Aphal]

You're right.
If Valve can get this working well, I'll applaud them.

But all this comes down to for the end user is that I've got to pay more money. I can't try a multitude of mods as I could in HL1. I don't even have five bucks at the moment... so I'm really not sure if I support it or not. I'm greedy.

 

[Dedatorv]

Well, it wouldn't be Valve, it would be individual developers taking that risk. And if parents use their credit cards to buy 50$ games for their kids, why not a 5$ treat every once and awhile?

Well parents these days are just scared of a computer+credit cards. All you see on TV is about some new computer virus, hacker gaining private info, also all those identity theft commericials(Yes they are funny) especially the one with the guy who had the nerdy voice talking how he got right through the firewall and was gonna build a female robot. Many adults believe that like 99% of the people ordering stuff online get their info stolen, that is the big reason many people just don't order stuff. My family grew up ordering stuff online, we are not worried about it since we don't do stupid stuff and we keep everything secure. Overtime though I think people will just accept that its safe if you act smart with CC's and computers.

 

[poseyjmac]

You're right.
I can't try a multitude of mods as I could in HL1..

(new)user created hl2 mods will be free at first most likely, because they have to go through the development process. thats the time to play and then if you like it, you buy the whole mod when it goes final.

 

[dream431ca]

I've never seen a post with such good Ideas. All these ideas are excellent I would support them all if I could. I especially like the idea of us advertising for valve to make the community stronger and to make people more interested in the game. Wonderful post Apos! :thumbs:

 

[Apos]

Hey, but I want YOUR ideas, not mine! I've got to run off to non-internet land for awhile anyways...