The U.S must stop suporting Israel

GiaOmerta · Jan 8, 2005

Raziaar said:
For what reasons should we stop trading with Israel? Using the logic you do, it would be good to stop trading with the rest of the world too. The point? No point. Its pointless to stop trading with allies and trade partners. Until the nation of Israel does something against the states, I don't see any reason to stop being their ally.

Why do you seek to divide us from our allies? So you can weak us? Our trade with israel will not affect the israeli/palestinian conflict, except maybe tempt the other muslim nations to invade Israel again. Is that what you want? So adamant against the Iraqi war, but would be supportive of an israeli war? Because that's what would happen. And even without our support, Israeli would crush enemy opposition as long as things remained conventional.

It's all part of the Liberal Agenda.
Strip Lady Liberty and bind her for the raping. They also seek the destruction of the Kingdom of David.

Lemonking · Jan 8, 2005

CptStern said:
before

after

see thats just not right its not their country

Sgt_Shellback · Jan 8, 2005

Well... I honestly and sincerely agree with the post. Anytime my tax dollar goes to aide any other country I think it's just wrong. The US shouldn't be supporting them. It's fine if their a friend and all and if they want to buy arms that are exportable let them. But we don't need to give them aide.

But with that hands off attitude and saying "Let them handle it on their own", all countries than just need to STFU when Israel nukes the poor b@st@rds into submission.

TheAmazingRando · Jan 8, 2005

Lemonking said:
see thats just not right its not their country

Okay let's do what you are saying. Let's kick all the Isrealis out of Isreal. Where do they go? Should we ship them up to Germany where their parents and grandparents came from?! Remember these are human beings we are talking about here, do you really want to uproot them from their homes just to appease fanatics who left the damn place.

Raziaar · Jan 8, 2005

TheAmazingRando said:
Okay let's do what you are saying. Let's kick all the Isrealis out of Isreal. Where do they go? Should we ship them up to Germany where their parents and grandparents came from?! Remember these are human beings we are talking about here, do you really want to uproot them from their homes just to appease fanatics who left the damn place.

Of course they do. Do you even have to ask?

TheAmazingRando · Jan 8, 2005

It's extremely hypocritical of them then.

yadalogo · Jan 8, 2005

Would this problem really exist if we could all just be athiest? I mean Darwin already proved God wrong can't we all just drop this thing already?

SidewinderX · Jan 8, 2005

Sprafa said:
If the Israelis returned to the original borders, I wouldn't mind them in the Middle East. Instead they try to achieve the "biblical borders", which is illegal.

No, they're not trying to achieve "biblical borders", they were attacked, multiple times by multiple nations, and they won. They gained territory from winning.

And, for the record, the Israel War of Independence was won while the US led an arms embargo on Israel. They didn't win because the US supported them.

wikipedia said:
Over the next few days, approximately 10,000 Lebanese, 60,000 Syrian, 4,500 Iraqi, 50,500 Egyptian, 60,000-90,000 Transjordanian troops and unknown number of Saudi and Yemenite troops invaded Israel. Together with the few thousand irregular Arab soldiers, they faced an Israeli Zionist army numbering 30,000-35,000

The Jews won their war of independence with minimal help from the West. In fact, they won despite efforts to undermine their military strength.

Although the United States vigorously supported the partition resolution, the State Department did not want to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves. "Otherwise," Undersecretary of State Robert Lovett argued, "the Arabs might use arms of U.S. origin against Jews, or Jews might use them against Arabs."14 Consequently, on December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on the region.

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/1948_War.html

Bait · Jan 8, 2005

TheAmazingRando said:
Okay let's do what you are saying. Let's kick all the Isrealis out of Isreal. Where do they go? Should we ship them up to Germany where their parents and grandparents came from?! Remember these are human beings we are talking about here, do you really want to uproot them from their homes just to appease fanatics who left the damn place.

You speak as if you are equal minded, with saying "these are human beings we are talking about here." So, the Palestinians are in some way less "human" than the Israelis, is that it? That maybe moving out of their settlements on foreign soil is terrible, and a crime against humanity, but killing Palestinian women and children is fine and can easily be overlooked?

And I am sick and tired of people claiming all Palestinians are fanatics. Understand this: Israel is occupying a foreign land that DOES NOT belong to them. The inhabitants of this land are pissed off as hell, especially since the rest of the world seems to be completely ignorant in the matter and have apparently decided to side with or appease the Israelis. People in Palestine have a hatred and enmity for the nation of Israel because of the constant injustices it has commited. Not to say the Palestinians have not commited unjust crimes, but the Israelis cannot just shirk off the idea that it is killing innocents, ruining the lives of women and children, and sapping the essence of a country in the process of this parade of injustice they are commiting.

Believe me when I say I am completely against the death of an innocent. Whether they be an Israeli, Palestinian, American, Iraqi, Chineese, I don't care. A death is a death is a death is a death. Anyone who dares back up Israel and the U.S and don't believe in the above statement should think long and hard about their deep rooted hypocracy. With that, I condemn all suicide bombings that have taken place in Palestine. Innocents, no matter their ideology, should not be taken into the middle of this conflict. In light of this, though, Israel is a cruel nation, litteraly stripping Palestine of its people, its culture and its wealth. The blood on the hands of the leaders in Israel is so great that only the most blind of people can not possibly see what kinds of evils and atrocious acts being commitied against a people who have no real way of defending themselves.

If people don't wake up and realize what a crime against humanity the innocents in that part of the world are being subjected to, things will get much worse before they get any better.

GiaOmerta · Jan 8, 2005

yadalogo said:
Would this problem really exist if we could all just be athiest? I mean Darwin already proved God wrong can't we all just drop this thing already?

A theory doesnt prove anything.

yadalogo · Jan 9, 2005

But then again most things are theories not facts, yet we treat them as such!

GiaOmerta · Jan 9, 2005

Indeed, we lay our foundations down on sand.

yadalogo · Jan 9, 2005

Was that sarcasm?

GiaOmerta · Jan 9, 2005

No. It wasnt.

K e r b e r o s · Jan 9, 2005

SidewinderX said:
No, they're not trying to achieve "biblical borders", they were attacked, multiple times by multiple nations, and they won. They gained territory from winning.

And, for the record, the Israel War of Independence was won while the US led an arms embargo on Israel. They didn't win because the US supported them.

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/1948_War.html

Thank. You.

You speak as if you are equal minded, with saying "these are human beings we are talking about here."

Well, is'int that equal minded or at least healthy, to acknowledge people are human beings?

What would you rather them be? Not human?

So, the Palestinians are in some way less "human" than the Israelis, is that it?

No. However, when during the prelude to the six-day war you decide to remark, "The State of Israel shall not only be irradicated, but her people along side of it", it does make them seem less likely to negotiate humanely.

Do you also see this as human?

“There is the outstanding case of a recruit from Aleppo who murdered 28 Jewish soldiers all by himself, slaughtering them like sheep. All of his comrades in arms witnessed this. He butchered three of them with an ax and decapitated them....He struggled face to face with one of them and throwing down his ax managed to break his neck and devour his flesh in front of his comrades. This is a special case. Need I single it out to award him the Medal of the Republic. I will grant this medal to any soldier who succeeds in killing 28 Jews, and I will cover him with appreciation and honor his bravery.”10

Perhaps this is flattery to your case.

That maybe moving out of their settlements on foreign soil is terrible, and a crime against humanity, but killing Palestinian women and children is fine and can easily be overlooked?

However, accidents do occur, and I feel sorry for anyone who suffers this unfortunate fate having not been guilty.

In the most likely case, women and children have been known to help scan out locations and guide moving terrorist fighters. [Who would shoot a kid, or suspect one?] < - I say to this, exactly. Who could think of a child understanding or wanting to be involved in helping out a conflict ... but then when you witness Palestinian Children declaring Jihad against Israel ... it really turns things around.

If Children or Women help scout or give information to terrorists, then they are terrorists well endangering whatever they're point or target is. They are the same, and should be reguarded as the same kind of threat, armed, or not armed.

Its horrible, but its true.

And I am sick and tired of people claiming all Palestinians are fanatics.

Not everyone is an armed fanatic -- however some of them are the kind that will invade a mosque after religious prayer, and make inane statements that are not backed by facts. Things like, "Today, a Mosque was bombed by 2030409095 million american jets. Death to America, Egypt will be its bringer!"

They might not be armed with weapons, but they're armed with propaganda. However, again, not everyone is a fanatic. A lot of Palestinian women advise against their own children helping a lot of these terrorist guys out.

Its a 50/50 situation, especially for those in Gaza.

Understand this: Israel is occupying a foreign land that DOES NOT belong to them.

No, it does. It gained such a territory from its counter-attacks during the six-day war.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf6.html#g

MYTH

"Israel viewed the territories it captured as conquered lands that were now part of Israel and had no intention of negotiating over their return."

FACT

By the end of the war, Israel had captured enough territory to more than triple the size of the area it controlled, from 8,000 to 26,000 square miles. The victory enabled Israel to unify Jerusalem. Israeli forces had also captured the Sinai, the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Israel's leaders fully expected to negotiate a peace agreement with their neighbors that would involve some territorial compromise. Almost immediately after the war, Israel's leaders expressed their willingness to negotiate a return of at least some of the territories. Israel subsequently returned all of the Sinai to Egypt, territory claimed by Jordan was returned to the Hashemite Kingdom, and nearly all of the Gaza Strip and more than 40 percent of the West Bank was given to the Palestinians to establish the Palestinian Authority.

To date, approximately 93 percent of the territories won in the defensive war have been given by Israel to its Arab neighbors as a result of negotiations. This demonstrates Israel's willingness to trade land for peace.

Read that.

The inhabitants of this land are pissed off as hell, especially since the rest of the world seems to be completely ignorant in the matter and have apparently decided to side with or appease the Israelis.

We side or appease Israel, because its been attacked, threatened, and invaded multiple times and yet each of those attacks, threats, and invasions, had no promting whatsoever.

Israel was open for negotiations during 1946, but they were invaded in 1947. They defeated the Arab armies in 1948.

Israel was open for negotiations during 1952, but they were attacked by a wave of riots, and an open-ended armed conflict.

Israel was open for negotiations during 1964, and 1967, but was again attacked and yet repelled; and even gained land from the backed nine arab countries, who voted to "spill Israels blood -- and slaughter its demon-hooded children from the plain".

Israel was open for negotiations during 1972 and 1973, but Egypt initiated a war of attrition by actually attacking Israeli settlements and military establishments.

As I recall, it faced off 80,000 soldiers coming accross its borders ...

and still won.

Yet, even with this, Israel has shrunken to its normal self (about), and is still negotiating land treaties with the nations who LOSSED there own CONQUESTS.

People in Palestine have a hatred and enmity for the nation of Israel because of the constant injustices it has commited.

Injustices such as defending itself, and winning?

Or, injustices like when Syria, and Lebanon launched huge invasions into Israel's borders, without Israel ever attacking first?

Not to say the Palestinians have not commited unjust crimes, but the Israelis cannot just shirk off the idea that it is killing innocents, ruining the lives of women and children, and sapping the essence of a country in the process of this parade of injustice they are commiting.

Actually, they're not. However, terrorists from more then nine arab countries have.

Israels acknowledged they've killed Children, and stated all of it probably was'nt meant. More of the murder, was commited by the real invaders, the Arab Legion. (Who was defeated ... four or five times ... in four of its own premptive invasions and attacks).

A death is a death is a death is a death. Anyone who dares back up Israel and the U.S and don't believe in the above statement should think long and hard about their deep rooted hypocracy.

However, if a death is a death, why cant you understand why some people wish to hand gratitude or support over to the United States, or Israel?

I also dont believe in this, "hypocracy" so much as I do your own. You want us to forget Israeli victims, yet you testament you view its wrong for innocents to die. Of course, then you staple all over that with "OMFG PALESTINIAN DIED OMFG!!"

Which do you want us to believe? Your a balanced, and fair thinker on the middle-east?

Or share some bias to Israel's enemies? (Who made it abundantly clear they could not negotiate without first, invading, then loosing).

Eg. · Jan 9, 2005

tl;dr

even though i agree with u

GiaOmerta · Jan 9, 2005

Long live the Kingdom of David.

Amen and well said K e r b e r o s.

Eg. · Jan 9, 2005

um, last i heard, people dont like it when the isrealis mention the kingdom of David, u might want to keep that on the downlow.

seriously, mentioning that only makes the pro-palastinian people fell more rightous

GiaOmerta · Jan 9, 2005

People dont like alot of things. They arent rightous. They taint the image of the Kingdom of David. They oppose her. They seek her destruction. They seek her end and they shall not find it.

yadalogo · Jan 9, 2005

What about the Kingdom of Yadalogo???

Bait · Jan 9, 2005

K e r b e r o s said:
Thank. You.

Well, is'int that equal minded or at least healthy, to acknowledge people are human beings?

What would you rather them be? Not human?

I can turn that around on you just as easily. What's worse, moving people out of settlements or a constant cycle of blood?

No. However, when during the prelude to the six-day war you decide to remark, "The State of Israel shall not only be irradicated, but her people along side of it", it does make them seem less likely to negotiate humanely.

Do you also see this as human?

It is a disgusting remark, I agree. No people should be wiped out systamatically. The jews of all people should know.

Perhaps this is flattery to your case.

Terrible. I don't condone it, but do not think for a moment there aren't acts of brutality upon the Israeli side.

However, accidents do occur, and I feel sorry for anyone who suffers this unfortunate fate having not been guilty.

In the most likely case, women and children have been known to help scan out locations and guide moving terrorist fighters. [Who would shoot a kid, or suspect one?] < - I say to this, exactly. Who could think of a child understanding or wanting to be involved in helping out a conflict ... but then when you witness Palestinian Children declaring Jihad against Israel ... it really turns things around.

If Children or Women help scout or give information to terrorists, then they are terrorists well endangering whatever they're point or target is. They are the same, and should be reguarded as the same kind of threat, armed, or not armed.

Its horrible, but its true.

Dear God, no. Where did you hear such a thing?

And saying such things are "accidents" does not make it so. The daughter of a physician was brutaly crushed underneath an Israeli caterpillar tank that was produced in the USA while her parents watched. That is disgusting, and truly shows the appauling nature of these people (Israeli soldiers).

Not everyone is an armed fanatic -- however some of them are the kind that will invade a mosque after religious prayer, and make inane statements that are not backed by facts. Things like, "Today, a Mosque was bombed by 2030409095 million american jets. Death to America, Egypt will be its bringer!"

They might not be armed with weapons, but they're armed with propaganda. However, again, not everyone is a fanatic. A lot of Palestinian women advise against their own children helping a lot of these terrorist guys out.

Its a 50/50 situation, especially for those in Gaza.

You speak as if you have been inside a Palestinian mosque. Which one by chance was it?

And, if I understand you correctly, anyone armed and fighting against the Israeli Army is a terrorist? What does that make the Israelis? Freedom Fighters? Just and Noble soldiers of peace?

And don't speak as if you know something about the Palestinian women. If you are going to pull something compeltely out of your ass, at least make it less blatant.

No, it does. It gained such a territory from its counter-attacks during the six-day war.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf6.html#g

Read that.

A slightly less biased source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_day_war

One thing you don't understand is that no Palestinian army was involved. Jordan attacked hesitantly, but as Jordan, not as Palestine. Once the war was over, many Palestinians went to Jordan due to the unrest they felt.

Also...

Some Arabs believe the US and Britain provided more support for the Israelis than the American and British governments admit. Claims of American and British combat support for Israel began on the second day of the war. Radio Cairo and the government newspaper Al-Ahram made a number of claims, among them: that US and British aircraft carrier-based aircraft flew sorties against the Egyptians; that US aircraft based in Libya attacked Egypt; that US spy satellites provided imagery to Israel. Both Syria and Jordan broadcast similar reports on Radio Damascus and Radio Amman. Michael Oren claims that the purpose of these claims was to secure Soviet support. If this were true, it would in many ways mirror claims Israel made during this time in attempts to get US support. In reaction to these claims, Arab oil-producing countries announced either an oil embargo on the United States and Britain or suspended oil exports altogether.

Some things that contributed to this belief, other than general US support for Israel, was US intelligence-gathering during this period. Although this intelligence gathering was not disputed, the question arose as to whether the intelligence was handed over to the Israelis, perhaps to help them coordinate attacks. The US government has denied doing this.

High school and lower grade textbooks in Egypt claim that American and British troops fought on behalf of Israel during the Six-Day War. The following example comes from ‘Abdallah Ahmad Hamid al-Qusi, Al-Wisam fi at-Ta'rikh (Cairo: Al-Mu'asasa al-‘Arabiya al-Haditha, 1999), p. 284.

The United States' role: Israel was not (fighting) on its own in the (1967) war. Hundreds of volunteers, pilots, and military officers with American scientific spying equipment of the most advanced type photographed the Egyptian posts for it (Israel), jammed the Egyptian defense equipment, and transmitted to it the orders of the Egyptian command.

On 9 June 1967, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser stated in his resignation speech (his resignation was not accepted):

What is now established is that American and British aircraft carriers were off the shores of the enemy helping his war effort. Also, British aircraft raided, in broad daylight, positions of the Syrian and Egyptian fronts, in addition to operations by a number of American aircraft reconnoitering some of our positions … Indeed, it can be said without exaggeration that the enemy was operating with an air force three times stronger than his normal force.

After the war ended, the Egyptian government and its newspapers continued to make claims of collusion between Israel, the United Kingdom and the United States. These included a series of weekly articles in Al-Ahram, simulaneously broadcast on Radio Cairo, by Muhammad Heikal in Al-Ahram. Heikal attempted to uncover the "secrets" of the war. He presented a blend of facts, documents, and interpretations. Heikal's conclusion was clear-cut: there was a secret U.S.-Israeli collusion against Syria and Egypt.

We side or appease Israel, because its been attacked, threatened, and invaded multiple times and yet each of those attacks, threats, and invasions, had no promting whatsoever.

Israel was open for negotiations during 1946, but they were invaded in 1947. They defeated the Arab armies in 1948.

Israel was open for negotiations during 1952, but they were attacked by a wave of riots, and an open-ended armed conflict.

Israel was open for negotiations during 1964, and 1967, but was again attacked and yet repelled; and even gained land from the backed nine arab countries, who voted to "spill Israels blood -- and slaughter its demon-hooded children from the plain".

Israel was open for negotiations during 1972 and 1973, but Egypt initiated a war of attrition by actually attacking Israeli settlements and military establishments.

As I recall, it faced off 80,000 soldiers coming accross its borders ...

and still won.

Yet, even with this, Israel has shrunken to its normal self (about), and is still negotiating land treaties with the nations who LOSSED there own CONQUESTS.

Injustices such as defending itself, and winning?

Or, injustices like when Syria, and Lebanon launched huge invasions into Israel's borders, without Israel ever attacking first?

This has little to do with previous wars. No other arab nations are currently in this conflict. We have one of the most well equiped armies on earth fighting and occupying a people with no army, no equipment, and no strategic intelligence.

It's a massacre. Essentially, it is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Actually, they're not. However, terrorists from more then nine arab countries have.

Israels acknowledged they've killed Children, and stated all of it probably was'nt meant. More of the murder, was commited by the real invaders, the Arab Legion. (Who was defeated ... four or five times ... in four of its own premptive invasions and attacks).

They're NOT? They are destroying homes, making women widows, using excessive force and everything in between.

One thing that shows the disgusting nature of the Israeli Army is the fact that one of the first things they did was uproot all of the olive trees in Palestine. Olive oil is a big part of their culture and as a people. The damned soldiers saw fit to destroy them and leave lands barren. This kind of behavior shows injustice towards a people. This kind of behavior incites violence and hatred. The death of civilians cannot be condoned whatsoever, under any conditions at all, but by God, the Israelis are asking for it.

However, if a death is a death, why cant you understand why some people wish to hand gratitude or support over to the United States, or Israel?

I also dont believe in this, "hypocracy" so much as I do your own. You want us to forget Israeli victims, yet you testament you view its wrong for innocents to die. Of course, then you staple all over that with "OMFG PALESTINIAN DIED OMFG!!"

Which do you want us to believe? Your a balanced, and fair thinker on the middle-east?

Or share some bias to Israel's enemies? (Who made it abundantly clear they could not negotiate without first, invading, then loosing).

To say I am a hypocrit is a great blow to your crediblity in my eyes. I am nothing if not honest and level minded. If I see and injustice, I speak out. If I see a wrong being comitted, I speak out. If I see collaboration of the strong in an attempt to annex the weak, I speak out. To say I try to "staple over the idea of Israeli victims" is a blatant lie. Read my previous posts, you will see that I speak out against the death of Israelis. But I don't see anywhere in your post a condamnation of the Israelis behavior towards Palestinians.
Few things are worse than being a hypocrit. Remember this while speaking your mind.

The reason I speak out so much for the Palestinian victims is because no one else here wants to recognize them. Were people just chanting about the deaths of Palestinians, I would HONESTLY remind them of some of the things Palestinians have done to the Israelis. But, it seems you wish to live in the illusion that the past justifies the present, and that the Israelis for one reason or another deserve to occupy a land that isn't theirs.

I will say, though, that the Palestinians must be more willing to talk. Violence has gone on long enough, and peace must be issued soon. But that won't happen while Israeli settlers live on Palestinian land.

All of manking should be ashamed for what is happening in Palestine today. One of the holiest places for Muslims, Jews and Christians alike is being desicrated for no good reason. This is the worse thing to happen since WWII, in my opinion, and should be taken much more seriously by the world at large. The sooner peace is established between the two nations, the better.

TheAmazingRando · Jan 9, 2005

Bait said:
You speak as if you are equal minded, with saying "these are human beings we are talking about here." So, the Palestinians are in some way less "human" than the Israelis, is that it? That maybe moving out of their settlements on foreign soil is terrible, and a crime against humanity, but killing Palestinian women and children is fine and can easily be overlooked?

Where in any of my posts did I say even once that Palestinians are less human? I could make the same assumption about you by saying that you are stating Isrealis are less human by wanting to take their land away from them, which would more than likely require killing them. I am arguing that it is hypocritical to want to kick the Isrealis out of the land they fought for to then reinstate the Palestinians back in just because the Isrealis did the same thing to the Palestinians.

Vulture · Jan 9, 2005

Raziaar said:
For what reasons should we stop trading with Israel? Using the logic you do, it would be good to stop trading with the rest of the world too. The point? No point. Its pointless to stop trading with allies and trade partners. Until the nation of Israel does something against the states, I don't see any reason to stop being their ally.

Why do you seek to divide us from our allies? So you can weak us? Our trade with israel will not affect the israeli/palestinian conflict, except maybe tempt the other muslim nations to invade Israel again. Is that what you want? So adamant against the Iraqi war, but would be supportive of an israeli war? Because that's what would happen. And even without our support, Israeli would crush enemy opposition as long as things remained conventional.

Waht I said was that America (and Britain, I suppose) should stop
making arms deals with Isreal if peace is to be achieved. Trading arms with a country which is at war while trying to achieve a 'roadmap to peace' is hypocritical.

As you can see my reasons for stopping the arms trade with Isreal have nothing to do with weakening America, I don't know were you got that one from.

I am not supportive of an Isreali war, as I said in my post this would be a way to peace, you lack reading ability.

Isreal would crush opposition without a good supply of help from America? Unlikely given Irans... state, at the moment.

Raziaar · Jan 10, 2005

Vulture said:
Waht I said was that America (and Britain, I suppose) should stop
making arms deals with Isreal if peace is to be achieved. Trading arms with a country which is at war while trying to achieve a 'roadmap to peace' is hypocritical.

As you can see my reasons for stopping the arms trade with Isreal have nothing to do with weakening America, I don't know were you got that one from.

I am not supportive of an Isreali war, as I said in my post this would be a way to peace, you lack reading ability.

Isreal would crush opposition without a good supply of help from America? Unlikely given Irans... state, at the moment.

The middle eastern countries recieve aid from wherever they get it... monetarily, militarily. Supplying Israel doesn't aggrivate war, it better prevents it. You can't let an ally become underarmed knowing that it will possibly cause them to seen at a moment of weakness by their enemies, possibly causing them to attack again.

As long as the middle eastern countries are building up their arms... then so to should Israel, to protect themselves.

Vulture · Jan 10, 2005

Raziaar said:
The middle eastern countries recieve aid from wherever they get it... monetarily, militarily. Supplying Israel doesn't aggrivate war, it better prevents it. You can't let an ally become underarmed knowing that it will possibly cause them to seen at a moment of weakness by their enemies, possibly causing them to attack again.

As long as the middle eastern countries are building up their arms... then so to should Israel, to protect themselves.

When I said that I concerted effort should be made to stop arms arriving from Egypt I meant it, this would also stretch to other countries.

So what is better, countries locked into a permanent arms race or countries being slowly disarmed. Ever heard of World War 1?

Though it is unlikely that another war in the middle east would happen with countries other than America/Britain etc. Simply because of international pressure.

K e r b e r o s · Jan 10, 2005

Long -- First Post

I can turn that around on you just as easily. What's worse, moving people out of settlements or a constant cycle of blood?

I have no idea where this question came from. Well, it kinda came out of left field, but still ... I'd like it to be more specific.

It is a disgusting remark, I agree. No people should be wiped out systamatically. The jews of all people should know.

Am I reading this subordination correctly?

"Its disgusting. I agree. No one should be wiped out systematically. [>MAIN POINT HERE ABOUT THE JEWS DOING TEH EVAL THINGS< The jews of all people should know. >SGNIHT LAVE HET GNIOD EHT TUOBA EREH TNIOP NIAM<]

Is that your posture?

Terrible. I don't condone it, but do not think for a moment there aren't acts of brutality upon the Israeli side.

However, your trying to justify the arguement that the land Israel is on, is not theirs -- and unfortunately, it was'nt they're choice. [Choice, referring where to setup or how it might affect they're future. Europe did'nt want any Jews organizing or establishing a state before, during, or after World War II.]

Now, going back with that "justification" of yours, once again its trying to victimize people who've been helping with terrorist functions, the terrorists themselves, or the arab legion. Your misrepresenting your own statements by stating civilians, then however detailing emotives I cannot associate with civilians.

If innocent people were killed, and if your suggestion this through your lucrative measure, indeed we share the repensible idea it is tragic. Thats tradgedy. If however some of the civilian dead, were helping terrorists then I dont associate the same thought on the topic.

Clearly helping either side, still makes you a fair games target.

===For what else you've argued===[Attrocities]

The Arab Legion came in 1947, again in 1954, and again in 1964 and 1967. It launched a suprise attack in 1969, and played a game of attrition in 1972-73. In 1975, Egyptian Fayedeen were blessed by Cairo Colleges and Mosques, as they began to infiltrate the state of Israel to commence terrorist attrocities. In 1976-78, Lebanonese Terrorists organized the first primary used method of suicide bombing today, and detonated a weapon that killed 54 people in one blast, and wounded 300 others. In 1982, Syrian Terrorists began to train Palestinian Children about Coca-Cola bombs, frag grenades wrapped in aluminum canisters; and how to hide bombs in stuffed dolls and backpacks. In 1982, it was'nt the first "Child Martryr" but one of many, when a Palestinian Young Girl, walked up to an Israeli Border patrol; with a remote detonation bomb in her small doll. She wounded most of the patrol, and the bomb had been detonated by the men who sent her. In 1983, the UN pressed against Israel for trying to hunt down terrorists in Jordan, more Fayedeen had kidnapped and killed Israelis'. Did you want to know more about this history you mocked and pressed as ill-relevant?

Terrorists, Arab Legion, whichever -- it was clear nethire of which choice, had any right to attack, martry, or invade.

This became evident in the whole history for the war against Israel -- a history which you sneered at. Realize this, that in 1973 not only had Egypt attacked first, but it discerned not based upon what it hit -- its goal was still the same; it attacked Israeli settlements and military targets alike.

If your one to consider attrocities:

In 1946 and 1947 during the first Arab Invasion, some Jewish families were maimed and slaughtered. Others were beaten, or its children and women raped. It was'nt the other way around then, for Israel had not attacked, was not attacking, but only defending.

In 1952 and 1954, huge riots instigated by "Arab Legion" terrorists, killed around 2,930 Jews -- in a matter of days time. Then, Israel was invaded again by the arab legion, and the advancing armies where fully known to have shot at anything "Israeli". What you read above and stated it was terrible, was just a short-hair in what was going on during that riot and invasion.

In 1964, and in 1967, Israeli soldiers who surrendered had their tongues cut out and were blinded with oils or by cuts.

These are not only just methods of some, but also, just some of what you can imagine were victims. More jews have been killed then Palestinians -- and its all because from 1947 to the present day, they've been victim to something they really had no choice for.

In short, and lets cross, that Israel in every situation has not been the aggressor, the threatener, or the primary terrorizer. It aggresses against, but only after. It threatens, when threatened. It terrorizes, when terrorized. Everything you see out of Israel, is a reply to the harsh levels of racism and beligerant and uncontrolled, violence and discrimination of the Jew in the middle-east.

You say those previous dont matter; you only make such grave statements because your immature to the developement on why Israel and Palestine are waging such a violent and brutal war with one another.

Your also immature to how the past affects the present -- everything in the past, also reflects the now. Things have'nt changed a bit, and Israel is still having more suicide bombers kill its civilians, then Israels Tanks are killing Palestinian civilians.

Arab countries, are still showing signs of aggression against Israel, the Faydeen have'nt quit their current occupations. All of these, constantly working at Israel's destruction, and you want me to look at those fighting against it, and not feel bias after seeing a history riddeled of brutality and aggression and invasion against a small little country that had its population become Germanys official scapegoat from 1932-1945?

Damn.

Just imagine. 1945, the war ended. 1946, the arab nations were after Israel; a state which was taking in fleeing jews from europe, left and right. Then, in 1947, it was invaded.

No Palestinians are any less human, however, it makes it hard to see them as dealing humanely. Read that clear -- noone has claimed otherwise.

Dear God, no. Where did you hear such a thing?

K e r b e r o s · Jan 10, 2005

The rest of the post -- Long also.

And saying such things are "accidents" does not make it so. The daughter of a physician was brutaly crushed underneath an Israeli caterpillar tank that was produced in the USA while her parents watched. That is disgusting, and truly shows the appauling nature of these people (Israeli soldiers).

What does the nature of where equipment was manufactured, constitute to the violent acts that they were used for?

Also, your bias is already shown that you are not capable on associating with a middle-ground. Your example, blaims the death of this girl as brutal; labeling the nature of the Israeli crew to be disgusting, and purposeful for this girls death.

I disagree. Its very hard to see out of tank, much less, whats closer then 7 feet to you. You'd have to unbutton your tank for that; but you would'nt want to. Palestinian Snipers are always waiting for an oppertune like that -- which is also why I believe this situation is indeed an unfortunate accident.

They could'nt see her.

Also, I'd like a source for this incident.

You speak as if you have been inside a Palestinian mosque. Which one by chance was it?

A friend of mine who works with Discovery Times is a Photo-Journalist. Two years ago, he made a trip to the Gaza strip, where he recorded the incident I suggested.

A friend of his, who died in the Gaza strip, made this video titled, "Death in Gaza".

http://www.channel4.com/news/2004/special_reports/death_in_gaza.html
http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/death_in_gaza/

Included also, is that some of his footage was featured in an onsite research video that chronicled the recruiting methods of Middle-Eastern terrorists, entitled: "Why do they hate us?"

http://middleeastinfo.org/article1681.html

The Why Do They Hate Us? video will be showing later in the month on Discovery Times.

This should tell you where I'am coming from.

And, if I understand you correctly, anyone armed and fighting against the Israeli Army is a terrorist?

You must be listening to your own propaganda. Anyone whos fighting against Israel now, probably is doing so on two general terms:

They've lost a family matter, who was either killed accidentally or onpurpose -- whom was which throwing rocks, bombs, or shooting at IDF Personel.

They've been tricked into supporting Palestinian Terrorists.

Now, if you've got a different Agenda for Palestine, and your fighting them on those grounds; yet not apart of a terrorist organization, then your not a terrorist.

If you join the ranks of Terrorism, or commit to its acts; then your thereby defined as a terrorist. You draw very thinly when defining the article for yourself -- im inclined to say your willing to betray your own arguement. Even you should've known that.

What does that make the Israelis? Freedom Fighters? Just and Noble soldiers of peace?

In a way, yes.

A slightly less biased source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_day_war

So, whats your gripe?

That it was'nt fair for the United States to be involved? I think it would be fair if any country at that time helped Israel, just because it was outnumbered 1 to 8.

However, your revisionist bias is that it only has one goal and one reprehensible and already decided, yet unresearched end: That the United States helped.

Wheres your own research?

One thing you don't understand is that no Palestinian army was involved. Jordan attacked hesitantly, but as Jordan, not as Palestine. Once the war was over, many Palestinians went to Jordan due to the unrest they felt.

Because they were embarrased they were captured by Israelis. On another note, they were also fearful due to they're own political propaganda.

Yet, it never happened.

This has little to do with previous wars. No other arab nations are currently in this conflict. We have one of the most well equiped armies on earth fighting and occupying a people with no army, no equipment, and no strategic intelligence.

It's a massacre. Essentially, it is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Glad it is. I hope not a single terrorist can cross the border of Israel, or Palestine, in hopes of killing both of its Men, Women, or Children.

... and yet, your gripe is indeed what I suspected it for. Your trying to gain sympathy for not the civilians of palestine, but the terrorists trying to relaunch their own "Arab Legion" campaign towards Israel.

How sentimental ...

To say I am a hypocrit is a great blow to your crediblity in my eyes.

You think I have a personal gain to afford with you? Hardly.

I am nothing if not honest and level minded.

Are you now?

Read below!

acts of brutality upon the Israeli side

The daughter of a physician was brutaly crushed underneath an Israeli caterpillar tank that was produced in the USA while her parents watched. That is disgusting, and truly shows the appauling nature of these people (Israeli soldiers).

And don't speak as if you know something about the Palestinian women. If you are going to pull something compeltely out of your ass, at least make it less blatant.

One thing that shows the disgusting nature of the Israeli Army

The damned soldiers saw fit to destroy them

pissed off as hell, especially since the rest of the world seems to be completely ignorant

Not really open-minded ...

They are destroying homes, making women widows, using excessive force and everything in between.

Truth is a three-bladed sword.

Palestinian Terrorists, are doing all of that to Israeli people aswell.

This kind of behavior shows injustice towards a people. This kind of behavior incites violence and hatred. The death of civilians cannot be condoned whatsoever, under any conditions at all, but by God, the Israelis are asking for it.

That kind of behavior is also what incites violence. Yet you could not read it in your own lines; and I also dont believe anyone deserves "it" as much as you do.

The reason I speak out so much for the Palestinian victims is because no one else here wants to recognize them. Were people just chanting about the deaths of Palestinians, I would HONESTLY remind them of some of the things Palestinians have done to the Israelis. But, it seems you wish to live in the illusion that the past justifies the present, and that the Israelis for one reason or another deserve to occupy a land that isn't theirs.

Fair, but not entirely agreeable. The reason I speak out so much for the Israeli's, is because so many people think its right to indoctrinate middle-eastern schools, with racism and discrimination towards Jews. The reason why I spoke out, is because Israel has not ever prompted one of the invasions, attacks, bombings, or infiltrations against it, except that it was there ... in its normal state, just being Israel.

It seems you wish to live in the illusion that its fair game, that when UN Delegates are talking of peace for the Middle-Eastern countries, and Israel, that a 14 year-old Palestinian Suicide bomber detonated at an IDF Check-point.

I dont however, like to believe death can be considered fair game to any event. You just also stated that peace in the middle-east would not be, until Israel ... pulled out? Pulled out of what?

The land she gained while retalliating they're own Middle-Eastern neighbors violent conquests and jihads? I cant say I have a pias end-statement, other then that I wish you would really try to support the Civilians killed, much rather then the terrorists, who would attempt to slow-down peace processes, and kill civilians.

But until you get out of this game of tid-for-tad, alls I can say is ... I feel sorry for you.

yadalogo · Jan 10, 2005

Kerberos, so far every single statement you have made has been utterly biased! Your sounding like starting to sound like one of those American hicks justifying our invasion of Iraq! Also just a short Q what were all of those pictures supposed to prove, that their nation is training their people to fight their enemy? Israel is by no means an innocent victim!

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/03/28/israel.attacks.03/

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_iraq_1981.php

SidewinderX · Jan 10, 2005

yadalogo said:
Kerberos, so far every single statement you have made has been utterly biased! Your sounding like starting to sound like one of those American hicks justifying our invasion of Iraq! Also just a short Q what were all of those pictures supposed to prove, that their nation is training their people to fight their enemy? Israel is by no means an innocent victim!

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/03/28/israel.attacks.03/

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_iraq_1981.php

I don'tthink he's tryng to argue that Israel is an "innocent victim."
But the truth of the matter is that israel is surrounded by nations and people who, well, at the very least, hate them. The most important thing to them is saftey of thier people. And that sometimes resualts in unfortunate events.

Israel can't let an act of terrorism bring them to thier knees because then it would say to Palestinian terrorists, and terrorists around the world, that terrorism is an effective way at achiving thier goals.

The Palestinian Terrorists do not have such weighty political implications on them is they were to stop bombings and suicide attacks.

But that's the key issue here. The Israelis are fighting to PROTECT thier people. You cannot argue the same about the Palestinians. The Palestinians are fighting to hurt the Israelis.

You can't argue that the terrorist attacks are done to protect thier people because:
a)They often involve suicide.
b)There is usually a retalitory strike by Israel.
Inciting attacks by Israel is in no way, shape, or form protecting your people.

Don't get me wrong, there have been tradegies on both sides. However I stongly beleive that the key to peace lies in the hands of the Palestinians, and more specifically the terrorist groups, and not the Israelis.

Eg. · Jan 10, 2005

still, why the hell can the isrealis just level the tent-cities and kicke verybody out? no one would do anything.

Vulture · Jan 11, 2005

SidewinderX said:
I don'tthink he's tryng to argue that Israel is an "innocent victim."
But the truth of the matter is that israel is surrounded by nations and people who, well, at the very least, hate them. The most important thing to them is saftey of thier people. And that sometimes resualts in unfortunate events.

Israel can't let an act of terrorism bring them to thier knees because then it would say to Palestinian terrorists, and terrorists around the world, that terrorism is an effective way at achiving thier goals.

The Palestinian Terrorists do not have such weighty political implications on them is they were to stop bombings and suicide attacks.

But that's the key issue here. The Israelis are fighting to PROTECT thier people. You cannot argue the same about the Palestinians. The Palestinians are fighting to hurt the Israelis.

You can't argue that the terrorist attacks are done to protect thier people because:
a)They often involve suicide.
b)There is usually a retalitory strike by Israel.
Inciting attacks by Israel is in no way, shape, or form protecting your people.

Don't get me wrong, there have been tradegies on both sides. However I stongly beleive that the key to peace lies in the hands of the Palestinians, and more specifically the terrorist groups, and not the Israelis.

So they are protecting there people by slowly expanding the amount of land they have? They are protecting there people by restricting journalists? They are protecting there people by indoctrinating them with zionist propoganda?

Now I know both sides have commited atrocities, however the Isrealis are the ones who have the power, they have tanks and helicopters were the palestinains have suicide bombers.

One of the things that they did do was build a wall, it did cut a settlement in half and they have killed several innocent people because of it but it is a start.

seinfeldrules · Jan 11, 2005

So they are protecting there people by slowly expanding the amount of land they have?

Most of the land came from when Israel kicked ass when the Arabs tried to invade. Hell, I dont see how you can invade, lose, and then cry foul about losing land.

K e r b e r o s · Jan 11, 2005

Kerberos, so far every single statement you have made has been utterly biased!

Incredibly biased? I backed it up with just a few sources, and nearly 100 pictures, and now im biased; on the charge you posted only TWO webpages?

Let me make my initial charge clear. Without the United States, Israel is still outnumbered. In order to have a moderation and a ground of support, the United States, or Great Britain are needed to support her incase of another "Legion" based attack.

Lets also make this clear -- I dont condone the actions you accuse Israel of. Yet, I'd argue for both sides based on my idea in order for peace to be ascertained, a moderation between both sides ills and goods, is indeed a nessecity.

Lemonking called that the United States must stop supporting Israel. I charge the United States must continue support, in the saftey of Israel and Palestine. I'm not going to underestimate Colin Powell.

Your sounding like starting to sound like one of those American hicks justifying our invasion of Iraq!

Your charges are also misleading. This statement here, as I'm seeing it, is more dedicated to fart in my face before you give me a thoughtful suggestion.

Next time, just give me the suggestion without whatever retortful statements you must exert to quell your emotives.

Also just a short Q what were all of those pictures supposed to prove, that their nation is training their people to fight their enemy?

If you read my entire post, and the person of whose I was critizing, you'd see his charge against mine was,

Where did you hear that?

, in response to,

In the most likely case, women and children have been known to help scan out locations and guide moving terrorist fighters. [Who would shoot a kid, or suspect one?] < - I say to this, exactly. Who could think of a child understanding or wanting to be involved in helping out a conflict ... but then when you witness Palestinian Children declaring Jihad against Israel ... it really turns things around.

If Children or Women help scout or give information to terrorists, then they are terrorists well endangering whatever they're point or target is. They are the same, and should be reguarded as the same kind of threat, armed, or not armed.

Its horrible, but its true.

All of those links and pictures above, were citing where my arguement is correct, where terrorists are training children to become suicide bomber's and urban warfare fighters against Israel.

Using propaganda, and sometimes killing their own, the terrorists are thickening themselves into the Palestinian situation and are not helping its youth, but destroying it.

Israel is by no means an innocent victim!

Actually, according to history, she was. She was attacked in 1946 and in 1947. Two years after World War II, the jews that escaped into Israel from Europe refusing aid to holocaust victims; had again their land invaded by an "Arab Legion". All of this, all of it, leads to the now, where since 1946, Israel has been under attack, and never once been the aggressor.

GAZA (CNN) -- The Israel Defense Forces sent helicopter gunships and tanks to hit targets associated with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat Wednesday, responding to a series of deadly attacks against Israelis.[/i

]
This is from the first link you posted. The first paragrap, and this is the excerpt. I bolded everything that reflected as it has been since 1946, until now. Your own source, works to prove one of my points.

Under no circumstances will we allow an enemy to develop weapons of mass destruction against our people.

Click to expand...

Taken from your second source. It details that during the 1970's, Iraq was building up an army. In 1989, and 1990, its army was moving and pushing down towards Kuwait.

In 1973, Egypt was leading its war of attrition against Israel, by attacking and bombing civilian targets. In 1980, Iraq had launched missles into Tel Aviv, hoping to assist Egypt in its war of attrition against Israel.

By 1980, Egypt had stopped most of its attrition war, and instead sent over trained Fayedeen, to do its dirty work right in Israel's homeland. Iraq, was also suggested to have been helping during the 1964-1967 six-day war, inwhich, Iraq was named as a mobilized army prepared to strike against Israel.

Again, Israel retalliated against, not premptively. In 1984, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, Tel Aviv was under attack by SCUD Missles. Israel had been dispatching to the population Gas Masks, incase Saddam used chemical weapons of which, he claimed he had in his arsenal.

I would've much rather have had Israel retalliate, like it did, to destroy a Nuclear Weapons facility, then have Iraq, launch a SCUD armed with a Nuke.

So they are protecting there people by slowly expanding the amount of land they have?

Click to expand...

Thats an ill-listed claim, spoken only by a lack of facts preceding a middle-ground in this arguement. Israel has been giving land back, but in the same way, has also come under attack no matter what its doing.

It gave back land in 1972, but then was attacked from that same land by Egyptian Artillery. In 1973, Egypt violated its conventions and peace accords, when it began to build close-range Anti-Aircraft batteries almost right on top of Israel's border.

Israel, no longer owns the Sinai -- it gave that much back, and is now, almost confined to its original state exluding the Golan heights, and what it gained from Lebanon. Let that be a lesson not to conquest against it, with the idea of complete genocide.

They are protecting there people by restricting journalists?

Click to expand...

Palestine and Israel, are the most journalized places of the entire world. Journalists, report unbiased and uncensored, all of the actions that occur their.

Its a very absent claim, as well all know which side has done bad over there, or over here. You obviously know differently that Israel does infact make errors and mistakes, so you know. Thats not restricted information -- thats all over the place.

They are protecting there people by indoctrinating them with zionist propoganda?

Click to expand...

Israel has'nt been indoctrinating any Palestinian with Propaganda, and to say so in this game of tid-for-tad, is to jeopardize your claim through that the Terrorists and Palestinian Jihad formations, are by far, much worse; recruiting even children to fight against Israel.

Israel, has to go a long way before it can convince, even children as young as four, to be "Martyrs" for Israel.

Now I know both sides have commited atrocities, however the Isrealis are the ones who have the power, they have tanks and helicopters were the palestinains have suicide bombers.

Click to expand...

If the Palestinians had tanks, they would use those just as much as any one of their own suicide bombers. Imagine a tank, in Palestinian hands -- 35 rounds of delivered suicide bomber payload, and no damage to the tank except barrel wear.

They would have a field day.

One of the things that they did do was build a wall, it did cut a settlement in half and they have killed several innocent people because of it but it is a start.

Click to expand...

Israel built this wall to keep terrorists out -- and the innocent people you claim were killed in Bulldozing operations, for throwing Coca-Cola bombs at Israeli War Tractors.

Again, its retalliatory, and to lay down my statement, if Israel ever looses its garnered support, I'am almost certain it would slowly cripple. [Thats also why people dont want others to support Israel -- the remaining meglomaniacs want to trample Israel using there numbers. One America, balances out between a Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, and Egypt. Lets keep it that way -- for otherwise, its an unfair fight to peace. I hardly believe the Arab Legion, would deal with Israeli's as humanely as we have done with both sides]

TheAmazingRando · Jan 11, 2005

K e r b e r o s you are truly a voice of reason and logic. Thank you for your insight.

SidewinderX · Jan 11, 2005

Vulture said:
So they are protecting there people by slowly expanding the amount of land they have? They are protecting there people by restricting journalists? They are protecting there people by indoctrinating them with zionist propoganda?

Back up each of these statements.

Now I know both sides have commited atrocities, however the Isrealis are the ones who have the power, they have tanks and helicopters were the palestinains have suicide bombers.

Yes, and you're point is? Because the Israelis have power, they cannot just crumple under the demands of the terrorists.

One of the things that they did do was build a wall, it did cut a settlement in half and they have killed several innocent people because of it but it is a start.

I'm not sure where you're going with that...

Vulture: You're post just showed that you dislike Israel. You failed to make a logical argument that, in any way, refuted the statments I made. So now we know your opinion, which is fine. However, as far as I can tell, my statement was one of the few logic based arguments in the thread, so it would probably be a good place to discuss from. (as opposed to arguing over whose killed more who, debate the reasoning)

Re: Golan Heights

from wikipedia

During the Six-Day War (1967), the IDF captured the Golan Heights on 9-10 June. The area which came under Israeli control as a result of the war is two geologically distinct areas: the Golan Heights proper (1,070 km²) and the slopes of the Mt. Hermon range (100 km²).

Before the Six-Day War the strategic heights of the Golan, which are approximately 3000 ft. above pre-1967 Israel, were used to frequently bombard civilian Israeli farming communities far below them

The U.S must stop suporting Israel

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