This has got to stop

[Pi Mu Rho]

I agree. This wasn't about which game was better. This was about complete and utter bullshit masquerading as "facts"

 

[Lobster]

lol no matter how hard we try, even the most liberal of us surcumb to fanboyness

 

[Reven]

Just to say im not pro hl2 or pro doom3, i just gonna like HL2 more then doom, but in a extent, this thread was ....intreging

 

[Kadayi]

I still want to know about those Martian chainsaws...........

 

[Jadewolf5675]

Valve doesnt owe you shit

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I think the best way to end this topic is with a little quote from Pseudonym himself:

There is no point in me trying to reason with you guys ... There is no reason for me to stay, as it will accomplish nothing.

Well said, Pseudonym.
Godspeed to you, in your journey to leave the forum!

 

[Styloid]

Valve is the anti-community developer.

I didn't read anything else from the thread but I know Pseudonym is not a stupid person and I wonder why he would post something like this aside from looking for a fight. He has a slightly... skewed... way of looking at things and I don't think anyone would mind if he just kept it to himself instead of trying to stir trouble..

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I didn't read anything else from the thread but I know Pseudonym is not a stupid person

... .

 

[amneziac85]

Artists with Valve included do in fact owe us something, much like how the goverment owes us all something in the way of services. We pay taxes and we buy games, we are giving money for a service, therefore Valve does infact owe us something. And if we as the public demand something resonable like a release date, it is their not job, but responsibility to provide that to us. If you want my $55 when your game comes out, you cant ignore the public like their fools who know nothing...I can always get a bootleg copy, but I would like to contribute, but if I feel they dont deserve it, then they wont get it.

Second thing, this talk about HL2 losing its magic if its not released...it already has. It COULD have been the best graphically if released, but now you have games like FarCry and STALKER which in STALKERs' case, blows HL2 graphically out the water, so the graphics title it will never hold. And as someone who has worked around many game programmers, I know that a game can be overtweaked or overdeveloped. It happens when you have a great game but feel it can be better, so you tweak and tweak and tweak so much that a game ends up with a an extremely fake feel and glitches. Glitches being a huge danger, because as much as the hype behind the source engine is concerned, its still not childs play. It is still the most complicated engine ever (aside from DOOM 3, its not known which is more complex) and the more you tweak, the more you have to fix.

In conclusion Ill give my feeling on the whole thing. I dont think HL2 was ever meant to be released in 2003. I think the whole thing was a ruse for the pre-order bucks. I think if you could have got Gabe 1 on 1 at some chinese take out place, he would have told you 2004-2005.

Dont forget...Doom 3 is SERIOUS competition. This is the first single player game John Carmack has made since Quake 2! Quake 3 was an experiment...Doom 3 is the bread and butter. With all the talk about HL2, its like telling Jordan in his prime in game 7 of the Finals "Word is you lost your jumper". Holy Shit...no you didnt.

My opinion...bring on the flamers.

 

[Pseudonym_]

Here here amneziac, I concour.

 

[Rupertvdb]

well just to step up it seems sad that all you worry about is the game looking nice.

Also the reason HL was delayed was that they bhadn't tweaked it enough which was apparently a big problem amoung game dev's at that time. You are clearly hanging around with a minority because a lot of games released i find tend to be lacking in some way.

Overtweaking also should only be a prob when people try to implement new features, valve simply want to polish existing features to the point of perfection not add anyhting new (according to what i've read)

what do you think?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Artists with Valve included do in fact owe us something, much like how the goverment owes us all something in the way of services. We pay taxes and we buy games, we are giving money for a service, therefore Valve does infact owe us something.

Valve aren't a government service. They're a private company. You may have paid for Half-Life, but that doesn't entitle to you anything beyond it. They could have just closed their doors and shared the money out. What would you have done then? Demanded something more?

I dont think HL2 was ever meant to be released in 2003. I think the whole thing was a ruse for the pre-order bucks. I think if you could have got Gabe 1 on 1 at some chinese take out place, he would have told you 2004-2005.

Why would Valve need the pre-order money? Valve developed Half-Life with their own money. Half-Life sold over 13 million copies. That's not counting addons, mods and the PS2 version. That would have easily bankrolled Valve enough to develop HL2.

 

[amneziac85]

well just to step up it seems sad that all you worry about is the game looking nice.

Also the reason HL was delayed was that they bhadn't tweaked it enough which was apparently a big problem amoung game dev's at that time. You are clearly hanging around with a minority because a lot of games released i find tend to be lacking in some way.

Overtweaking also should only be a prob when people try to implement new features, valve simply want to polish existing features to the point of perfection not add anyhting new (according to what i've read)

what do you think?

I honestly dont know. Big titles are the only ones that tend to be overtweaked, MGS 2 happens to stick out, its rare but it happens. I am hoping it is like you say and not the over tweaking because thinking of the sensation I had playing HL1 gives me f'n goosebumps, and I am seriously rooting for it to be the greatest game ever, I just dont blindly follow along, I like to judge.

 

[amneziac85]

Valve aren't a government service. They're a private company. You may have paid for Half-Life, but that doesn't entitle to you anything beyond it. They could have just closed their doors and shared the money out. What would you have done then? Demanded something more?



Why would Valve need the pre-order money? Valve developed Half-Life with their own money. Half-Life sold over 13 million copies. That's not counting addons, mods and the PS2 version. That would have easily bankrolled Valve enough to develop HL2.

Right...I understand what you mean...but I am talking about my FUTURE purchase of HL2 along side my past purchase of HL1. You dont just buy a TV then not complain when the customer support sucks. What if the only thing in the instruction manual read... "you got a TV...cant you turn it on? what more do you want???" Your making games for the people, not just to make as much money as you can, and forgetting that and replacing it with the love of money is the first step to downfall.

HL2 has a $40 mil price tag. As far as the pre order bucks, its common practice because each preorder is counted as a sale and you are paid for that before the game is even released, think about why most people check the little 'Pay me all at once' box on the lotto ticket instead of the 'Pay me over 20 years' box. Plus think about it...if you had a way to add $200,000 to your bank acount right now...wouldnt you do it?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

HL2 has a $40 mil price tag.

Basic mathematics.

13,000,000 x $40 = $520,000,000

Take out 4/5 of that for the publisher.

= $104,000,000

That leaves plenty for Valve to develop HL2. Even if they only got half of that, it's still more than enough.

wouldnt you do it?

Not if it wasn't necessary, no.

You see, with preorders, the retailer is taking the money. Not the publisher, not Valve. that money isn't passed on to the publisher or the developer until the game ships. It stays quite happily with the retailer.

 

[el Chi]

All this Valve-bashin and theories that Valve are greedy or liars or whatever, they all derive from the fact that people were so utterly crushed when it was released that surely it MUST be because Valve are evil.
Like PiMuRhO said, Valve don't NEED any more moeny, and if they were so greedy, which developer was it who developed two mods (TFC and DMC) off their own back and then released them for free?
I really can't fathom why wanting to make a great product makes the greedy, of all things to call Valve, this is just stupidity.
And don't even get me started on the theory that Valve released the leak on purpose.
Some people really need to get over themselves and give Valve a break.

 

[amneziac85]

Basic mathematics.

13,000,000 x $40 = $520,000,000

Take out 4/5 of that for the publisher.

= $104,000,000

That leaves plenty for Valve to develop HL2. Even if they only got half of that, it's still more than enough.

Not if it wasn't necessary, no.

You see, with preorders, the retailer is taking the money. Not the publisher, not Valve. that money isn't passed on to the publisher or the developer until the game ships. It stays quite happily with the retailer.

Sorry but I happen to know first hand and have seen powerpoint presentations with my time at Activision to know that the practice of fake release dates to bring in more preorders does in fact happen and is quite regular. Its an advance pay check for the big guys. They are infact paid by the orders, even though EB and such havnt yet billed you for the money, its still given to the game makers. I have no clue why it works like that but it does. My best guess would be because who ever really cancels their pre order? My guess would be very few so its just counted as a sale and passed on, let the acountants work out all the details.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Regardless, Valve made more than enough money from HL sales to cover development costs for HL2. So wthat kind of removes any possible motive for announcing the game deliberately early.

 

[Neutrino]

Sorry but I happen to know first hand and have seen powerpoint presentations with my time at Activision to know that the practice of fake release dates to bring in more preorders does in fact happen and is quite regular. Its an advance pay check for the big guys. They are infact paid by the orders, even though EB and such havnt yet billed you for the money, its still given to the game makers. I have no clue why it works like that but it does. My best guess would be because who ever really cancels their pre order? My guess would be very few so its just counted as a sale and passed on, let the acountants work out all the details.

Until you respond to my arguments in this thread: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20596&page=5 pretty much everything you say is in question for me since you just seem to abandon a discussion when you start to lose the argument.

 

[amneziac85]

All this Valve-bashin and theories that Valve are greedy or liars or whatever, they all derive from the fact that people were so utterly crushed when it was released that surely it MUST be because Valve are evil.
Like PiMuRhO said, Valve don't NEED any more moeny, and if they were so greedy, which developer was it who developed two mods (TFC and DMC) off their own back and then released them for free?
I really can't fathom why wanting to make a great product makes the greedy, of all things to call Valve, this is just stupidity.
And don't even get me started on the theory that Valve released the leak on purpose.
Some people really need to get over themselves and give Valve a break.

LOL who said they were greedy? I know I didnt, because I see it like this...

I dont think its a matter of greed. Its THEIR game, if they want to get a few pre-order bucks, its up to them. Let them get some advance checks, its their money. Their not calling it half life 2 putting it in a HL2 box with f*ckin 'Barney learns Vietnamiese' on the inside. Its still their game, and its not greed, its a paycheck. I _like_ to get paid twice a month, but plenty of people get paid once a month...am I GREEDY?

 

[amneziac85]

Until you respond to my arguments in this thread: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20596&page=5 pretty much everything you say is in question for me since you just seem to abandon a discussion when you start to lose the argument.

Dumb ass...the thread was closed. Stop stalking and flaming, as much as I find it sexy when a woman does it, your just being a bit homosexual. :naughty:

Besides...I havnt even been online in 3 days...get off my back (Workin man bringin home the bacon)

 

[Neutrino]

You sir are impossible to even reason with. You have your own little pet theories and just ignore everyone else.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

amneziac85: If you can't have a discussion without resorting to petty and childish insults then:

a) You've already lost, as any point you may have had loses all merit

b) You'll get banned.

Tell you what - just so you can prove how right you are, I've reopened the thread for you. Wasn't that nice of me?

 

[Neutrino]

Tell you what - just so you can prove how right you are, I've reopened the thread for you. Wasn't that nice of me?

Hehe, this should be interesting.

 

[amneziac85]

Wow the personal attacks are just amazing...if you two little boyfriends want to gang up on me, go ahead and ban me because I refuse to let you two get in the way of my HL2 conversations. Read my posts in this thread and youll see I havnt been "childish" "insulting" or "petty". So get off my back and get back to the point of this thread.

Sad that I have to say this to a mod...knowing because of it I will probably be banned.

 

[Rupertvdb]

Wow the personal attacks are just amazing...if you two little boyfriends want to gang up on me, go ahead and ban me because I refuse to let you two get in the way of my HL2 conversations. Read my posts in this thread and youll see I havnt been "childish" "insulting" or "petty". So get off my back and get back to the point of this thread.

Sad that I have to say this to a mod...knowing because of it I will probably be banned.

I missed the bit of this relating to the fact someone is tired of valve for whatever two bit reason they have come up with now, not that i could be ****ed to waste my life reading that drivel.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Personal attacks? Show me where I personally attacked you and I'll apologise.

Read my posts in this thread and youll see I havnt been "childish" "insulting" or "petty"

Oh really? What's this then?

Dumb ass...the thread was closed. Stop stalking and flaming, as much as I find it sexy when a woman does it, your just being a bit homosexual.

and then this:

knowing because of it I will probably be banned.

Oh please.....

 

[crabcakes66]

Why are you putting up with this pimurho? I would have banned 2-3 people in this thread by now.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I have infinite patience.

 

[amneziac85]

So by telling someone who is acting like a homosexual he is doing so and telling him to stop stalking and flaming, I am doing something wrong? I doubt it.

as for...

You have your own little pet theories and just ignore everyone else.

He voiced his opinion, however meaningless, pointless, idiotic or homosexual it may be, its still his opinion and I applaud his attempt, but dislike his motives. Same with you PiMuRho, I applaud your work over the community, even though I think your a flamer. But without a doubt, one of the hardest working flamers here.

:cheers: cheers and :thumbs: thumbs up to those who disagree with me and voice their opinion, I couldnt care less about you but :cheers: all the same.

And as far as your apology, anyone who can read can see you have an axe to grind, you have insulted me with your actions and insinuating words, but you can keep your apology, because I have returned the favor. :cheers:

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Oh dear me.

Referring to people as being "homosexual" constantly isn't going to do you any favours. You're clearly using it as a derogatory term, so I suggest you cease forthwith. That is a formal warning. You only get one.

anyone who can read can see you have an axe to grind

Really? And what would that be then? You've analysed me thus far - don't stop now.

you have insulted me with your actions and insinuating words

Cite examples, or withdraw the statement.

but you can keep your apology

No apology is forthcoming. I said show me where I've been insulting.

 

[amneziac85]

Oh dear me.

Referring to people as being "homosexual" constantly isn't going to do you any favours. You're clearly using it as a derogatory term, so I suggest you cease forthwith. That is a formal warning. You only get one.




Really? And what would that be then? You've analysed me thus far - don't stop now.



Cite examples, or withdraw the statement.



No apology is forthcoming. I said show me where I've been insulting.

First I am not using it as a derogatory term. A man following another man and showing great interest in him in todays world can be taken as a real homosexual act.

As far as your insinuating actions, read anything youve written after me in the last 4 days. Because if you look at the nature of my wording, your _entire_ approach twoards me is negative, and based because I dont think Valve tell the people the truth, and you dont like that. So like I said, keep your apology, stop analysing my words so literal and get off your flaming and power trip wagon. For with every action people abuse their power, we prove we are nothing more then one step past monkeys.

And I am sure you will have something to say about this too, but I will no longer answer, because I am using my human brain to ignore, not to abuse and enter into cock fights. Especially because I just got the new D12 album and will be playing that in my ipod while listening to art bell for the remainer of the night.

 

[el Chi]

LOL who said they were greedy? I know I didnt, because I see it like this...

I dont think its a matter of greed. Its THEIR game, if they want to get a few pre-order bucks, its up to them. Let them get some advance checks, its their money. Their not calling it half life 2 putting it in a HL2 box with f*ckin 'Barney learns Vietnamiese' on the inside. Its still their game, and its not greed, its a paycheck. I _like_ to get paid twice a month, but plenty of people get paid once a month...am I GREEDY?

I beg to differ - you claimed that Valve, despite not needing the money, faked the leak to defend a delay that would have got them milions of dollars due to the pre-orders. They, according to you, duped people out of money so that they (Valve that is) could get lots of money they did not as yet need or deserve. That is the embodiment of greed. I really can't see there being another term for it.
There's a big difference between greed and false advertising, you dolt.

"First I am not using it as a derogatory term. A man following another man and showing great interest in him in todays world can be taken as a real homosexual act."
Congratulations! You're ignorant!

 

[crabcakes66]

Are Pseudonym and amneziac85 the same person?

 

[Varsity]

IPs say no, suprisingly.

 

[Rupertvdb]

i've been thinking that.. why don't they get a room? oooh sorry dude don't flip out....pfff.


This thread is another one of those stinkhole stagnant things, could it be closed because then Amneziac will maybe shut the hell up.

 

[Neutrino]

So by telling someone who is acting like a homosexual he is doing so and telling him to stop stalking and flaming, I am doing something wrong? I doubt it.

as for...

He voiced his opinion, however meaningless, pointless, idiotic or homosexual it may be, its still his opinion and I applaud his attempt, but dislike his motives. Same with you PiMuRho, I applaud your work over the community, even though I think your a flamer. But without a doubt, one of the hardest working flamers here.

:cheers: cheers and :thumbs: thumbs up to those who disagree with me and voice their opinion, I couldnt care less about you but :cheers: all the same.

And as far as your apology, anyone who can read can see you have an axe to grind, you have insulted me with your actions and insinuating words, but you can keep your apology, because I have returned the favor. :cheers:

Why don't you stop trying to insult me in your own way and respond to the arguments I have given you thus far. I've done nothing but put forth a different view than you in an argument. So please stop playing little games and just make a mature and well thought out response. It was really all I was looking for. Also, I really don't see how anyone is going to take your ideas seriously until you defend your previous statements when people seem to show that they were false. Here's the thread again for your convenience: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?p=406507#post406507 .

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

First I am not using it as a derogatory term. A man following another man and showing great interest in him in todays world can be taken as a real homosexual act.

Nice try, but it doesn't wash. The warning stands.

As far as your insinuating actions, read anything youve written after me in the last 4 days.

You really flatter yourself, don't you? I wasn't even aware of your existence until I saw some of your asinine postings today.

Because if you look at the nature of my wording, your _entire_ approach twoards me is negative,

I don't suffer fools.

and based because I dont think Valve tell the people the truth, and you dont like that.

No, I just think you're wrong. The things you've said about Valve have largely no merit whatsoever.

So like I said, keep your apology,

I intend to.

stop analysing my words so literal

They're words. They're supposed to be taken literally. What do you think "literature" means?

and get off your flaming

"Flaming" is abuse and personal attacks that someone resorts to when they have no valid argument. I've resorted to neither - you have.

and power trip wagon.

Heh. Power trip? I gave you a warning after you already had considerable leeway. Stop trying to be a martyr - it doesn't work.

For with every action people abuse their power, we prove we are nothing more then one step past monkeys.

At least some of us are that far along. "Abuse of power" is most often cried by those without when they lose an argument against someone who has power.

Abuse of power would be if I threatened to ban you for no reason, edited your posts etc. It's usage of power for personal gain. I don't need to abuse my power to win arguments.

And I am sure you will have something to say about this too

Obviously.

but I will no longer answer, because I am using my human brain to ignore, not to abuse and enter into cock fights.

Or, "I'm losing, so I'm leaving"

Especially because I just got the new D12 album and will be playing that in my ipod while listening to art bell for the remainer of the night.

Here's 20p - phone someone who cares.

 

[amneziac85]

Its a marvel of all sciences of how so many can be so ignorant. I guess looking at history, it shouldnt be a suprise. So much energy is being put into every post I make it makes me

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -Albert Einstien. I find that it fits.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Yes, amneziac. It's everyone else being ignorant. Not you. Oh no....

Run along now.