To those who see religion as harmless...

[Angry Lawyer]

I doubt it. The more science reveals, the harder religious/new age people try to put it down.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Solaris]

You're pissing me off here, majorly.

I'll point out the obvious, anything can be used in a harmful way.

Drug Vaccines, astronomy, number theory.

There can be crazy loony religious people, and there can be crazy loony athiestic people.

For good people to do evil things you need religion./quote
No-ones ever done an evil thing becuase of atheism, the same cannot be said of religion.

It all depends how you use it, to dismiss an entire idea, or set of ideas as "harmful" due to certain stupid individuals has absolutely no logic within it all.

The argument has been made time and time again here that there is perfect theological justification for being an evil murdering genocidal bastard. You will not find such justifications in "On the origin of Species".

Hitler used a lot of Darwinistic ideas right? Uh no! That must mean science is harmful!
*sarcasm*

Nothing Darwin did or said justified this.

 

[Absinthe]

Zombie, we went through this whole debacle before. Darwin's Origin of Species is an amoral document. The theory of evolution does not make any moral claims. The same cannot be said of most religious faith and their respective holy books.

Your comparison to a pencil is flawed, because pencils don't command you to uphold a moral code at the expense of others. And remember, we are talking about the supposed commands from God. I think you seriously underestimate how much importance some people accord their faith. How steadfast and committed they are to follow its teachings. Otherwise fine, normal people that are motivated to do stupid and sometimes dangerous things because they sincerely believe that it will please their creator.

You cannot say that religion is a benign force when it often makes explicit moral commands. While it always takes an actual person to kill in the name of his god, religion is always partly culpable. People are so quick to chalk this up to human evil or some shit, but that's just dishonest. I remember reading in The God Delusion how Dawkins described an interview with a man who murdered an abortionist for religious reasons. This man was not insane, nor was he depraved or sick. He was actually quite intelligent, well-spoken, and coherent. He in fact seemed like a perfectly reasonable and okay person. And yet he nonetheless killed a man because he knew that was his god wanted. The entire thing seemed perfectly rational and logical in his head. And it is, if you grant certain assumptions.

He wasn't a disturbed individual who took the Bible the wrong way. The Bible made him into what he turned into.

 

[MJ12]

You're pissing me off here, majorly.

yeah, forbid I look at both views in an arguement.

For good people to do evil things you need religion./quote.

For good people to do evil things you need nothing more than your own mind to persuade you?
Theres evil athiests, thiests, and agnosts. Being an athiest doesn't make me inherently "good", whatever your definition of good is.

The argument has been made time and time again here that there is perfect theological justification for being an evil murdering genocidal bastard. You will not find such justifications in "On the origin of Species".

Okay, look in the new testiment, no where does it say "It is perfectly okay to be a murderous genocidal bastard", same with Orgin of the Species, but guess what buddy, people twist things around! I dunno if this is news to you?
Like you have your christians who say that your going to hell if you don't go to church everyday, guess what, it doesn't say that in the bible.
Or a crazy Nazi who thinks we should purify the species my eliminating the weak, doesn't say that On the Orgin of Species.

People take shit and twist around all the time, religion, darwin's ideas, etc.

Nothing Darwin did or said justified this.

Perhaps you didn't notice *sarcasm* inserted below it, you know, indicating that I was being sarcastic.

 

[MJ12]

Zombie, we went through this whole debacle before. Darwin's Origin of Species is an amoral document. The theory of evolution does not make any moral claims. The same cannot be said of most religious faith and their respective holy books.

Your comparison to a pencil is flawed, because pencils don't command you to uphold a moral code at the expense of others. And remember, we are talking about the supposed commands from God. I think you seriously underestimate how much importance some people accord their faith. How steadfast and committed they are to follow its teachings. Otherwise fine, normal people that are motivated to do stupid and sometimes dangerous things because they sincerely believe that it will please their creator.

You're speaking on behalf of loony fundamentalists, there are perfectly kind and unharmful religious people out there.

He wasn't a disturbed individual who took the Bible the wrong way. The Bible made him into what he turned into.

HAHA, your kidding right? Oh what an easy way out. He had a brain right? He was able to think? It's his fault. Open the bible in the New Testament and tell me where it tells you to be a murderous fundamentalist bastard? Please.
Most fundamentalists take their nutty views from the old testament, and if someone is too f*cking retarded to not make a distinction between the "new" and the "old" and outdated laws of "god"( the same book the new testament says you should not follow because it is wrong and cruel), then they probably shouldn't be reading in the first place.



Oh,a nd by the way, incase any of you are thinking that I am being biased, I actually do not believe in god, and I refuse to be part of any religion. So this has nothing to do with a notion that I might be arguing on behalf of a religion.

 

[Polaris]

Hardcore Darwinistic Athiests and Hardcore Biggoted Fundamentalists are all the same.

Student of private catholic school, right?
Can you tell me what's wrong with people like Thomas Huxley, Richard Dawkins, Craig Venter, Daniel Dennett..? You probably have no idea about science and darwinism.

 

[Krynn72]

You're speaking on behalf of loony fundamentalists, there are perfectly kind and unharmful religious people out there.

Here you go again, thinking fundamentalism isnt a major thing. Did you not learn from the last time you brought this point up? Fundamentalism isnt just some tiny minority that dont represent a significant portion of the religious population. Just read Absinthe's post from last time, and please try and take something away from it this time.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2323684&postcount=143

And once you're done reading that, I'll refer you to the OP's article again. Even if fundamentalism is as insignificant as you seem to believe (which it isnt) then its still no argument because that small percentage of "loony fundamentalists" are destroying the lives of millions.

The local population, with no alternative sources of information, stopped sending their kids. Now polio is back with a vengeance, and we may never wipe it out. In a clash between reason and revelation, revelation won out – and as a direct result, millions of innocent people will be horribly paralysed and die.

 

[Absinthe]

You're speaking on behalf of loony fundamentalists, there are perfectly kind and unharmful religious people out there.

O RLY?
NO SHIT.

Yes, and that is because those people do not follow their religion in its entirety. Not even most of it. These people are phonies, and they will go to Hell when Judgment Day comes.

But some people actually treat their faith really seriously. Willing to die and kill for it if they think God deems it necessary.

HAHA, your kidding right? Oh what an easy way out. He had a brain right? He was able to think? It's his fault. Open the bible in the New Testament and tell me where it tells you to be a murderous fundamentalist bastard? Please.

This isn't a problem with intelligence or a capacity for critical thinking. There are very intelligent people who are religious, and no better or worse than any atheist when it comes to logic and reason when it comes to other areas of life.

Most people buy into this shit because they get brainwashed. Usually at an early age too. Do you realize how rare it is for somebody to drop their religious beliefs if they were ingrained at an early age? The mind functions normally otherwise, but it forms this blank spot that reason can't penetrate. God is beyond human comprehension. Logic doesn't apply. Blah blah blah.

And I believe the New Testament tells you to be a murderous bastard when it says that the Old Testament is still valid. We've been through this.

But hey, let's throw out the OT any way! The NT still allows you to keep slaves. Why, I believe that was the religious justification for keeping slaves in the pious South during the US Civil War. Ain't that funny.

 

[morgs]

religion, especially in the middle east is one of the main causes of death in the world.

 

[Solaris]

For good people to do evil things you need nothing more than your own mind to persuade you?
Theres evil athiests, thiests, and agnosts. Being an athiest doesn't make me inherently "good", whatever your definition of good is.

Religion tells people it is good to do evil things.

Okay, look in the new testiment, no where does it say "It is perfectly okay to be a murderous genocidal bastard", same with Orgin of the Species, but guess what buddy, people twist things around! I dunno if this is news to you?
Like you have your christians who say that your going to hell if you don't go to church everyday, guess what, it doesn't say that in the bible.
Or a crazy Nazi who thinks we should purify the species my eliminating the weak, doesn't say that On the Orgin of Species.

'let not one letter pass from the old law for all eternity'

 

[Cheomesh]

It's downright wrong to say that all ethics are based on religion, in fact it's utterly ludicrous .

As Christopher Hitchens says in God is Not Great, do the people who spout this believe that Moses and his followers, until they got issued the ten commandments, believed that murder, theft, rape, ect. were all okay and acceptable? Only to be told by God with the 10 commandments that these things were not kosher?

Please, have some self-respect, I don't steal and kill people becuase I don't like seeing fellow human beings hurt as a result of my actions, not becuase God will punish me if I do it.

Because you where raised to think that way, by parents who where raised to think that way. Nature vs Nurture.


Need I remind you that the whole recieving the 10 commandments thing never happened? It's a story about where their laws came from, where in actuality they where likely drafted via long-standing ethical beliefs founded in an older religion.

 

[Seppo]

I'm not taking part in this discussion because

A: I'm not interested
B: I don't have enough useless facts to show off with

so I'll just post a pretentiously funny picture instead

Spoiler

 

[Raziaar]

These religion threads are becoming a ****ing plague on hl2.net

Can't you guys talk about anything else that is interesting? Or do you like to hash over the same god damned thing over and over again?

Religion Bad
Religion Good
Religion Bad
Religion Good

First person who responds to me that I don't have to post here if I don't want to, gets a swift kick in the testicles. If you're a chick, ovaries.

 

[Seppo]

You could take the "funny guy" route, and try to be funny but eventually fail, like I just did.

 

[Absinthe]

First person who responds to me that I don't have to post here if I don't want to, gets a swift kick in the testicles. If you're a chick, ovaries.

L2P OR GTFO

 

[Raziaar]

L2P OR GTFO

<kicks Absinthe right in the family jewels>

NEXT!

 

[Krynn72]

Because you where raised to think that way, by parents who where raised to think that way. Nature vs Nurture.

BS. Most atheists I know come from religious families and were raised believing in god. The other Atheists I know come from a family where most of them believed in god, but didnt practice it much. I fall in the later group, but my parents believe in god, and in the basic idea behind the bible, but I dont believe any of it.


Also, Raziaar only said "the first person" would get kicked in the balls, so you should ignore these threads or gtfo!

 

[Raziaar]

Also, Raziaar only said "the first person" would get kicked in the balls, so you should ignore these threads or gtfo!

****. Stayed by my own words.

 

[Cheomesh]

BS. Most atheists I know come from religious families and were raised believing in god. The other Atheists I know come from a family where most of them believed in god, but didnt practice it much. I fall in the later group, but my parents believe in god, and in the basic idea behind the bible, but I dont believe any of it.


Also, Raziaar only said "the first person" would get kicked in the balls, so you should ignore these threads or gtfo!

This serves my point. Your "fair" ethics come from your upbringing, one of which has roots in a religion.

 

[MJ12]

Student of private catholic school, right?
Can you tell me what's wrong with people like Thomas Huxley, Richard Dawkins, Craig Venter, Daniel Dennett..? You probably have no idea about science and darwinism.

-Look, I wasn't picking upon those people, although I think it's pretty funny that you assume I must know nothing about science because I have been well educated in several different religions.
By the way, perhaps you missed the part where I said I don't believe in god? So stop assuming I am some close minded biggot.
What I find annoying are the people that refuse to look at the bigger picture and treat all people of religious faith as though they are evil, such as this-

Religion tells people it is good to do evil things.

There are always evil people, people with faiths, people without faiths.
What you said is so incredibly vague.
So lets say some kid really likes a rock musician, and in a song he says to go murder people....... oh man, that kid has got to murder someone now, right? And it's the musician's fault, right? Good call. Yeah, that and video games, and books, and movies, all their fault, yeah, blaim it on something else.
If you have a brain, theirs no excuse for not making your own validated decision.
Everyone does this these days "video games" do this, "rock music" does that, "religion" does that. No, you know what does all this shit? People, period, nothing else, no excuses.

Here is an even better example, an analogy.


Think of religion as alcohol, there are some people that use it in moderation, and some people that abuse it.
So some guy gets piss drunk and decides to get in his car and drive home. He ends up hitting some old lady and killing her.

With your logic you would say- "Alcohol tells people it's good to do bad things." "Alcohol is evil"

-No, alcohol is not evil, the individual who can't handle himself is just a dumbshit.

 

[Dan]

I've said it before, there are way more close minded mule headed "atheists" in this forum than there are religious fanatics. You wouldn't admit to having a wrong opinion if Jesus came down and slapped you in the face. You would just keep arguing the same rhetoric that has been drilled into your head. If this were 500 years ago, you would be the ones calling for Galileo to be thrown in jail because he didn't agree with you.

 

[Polaris]

-Look, I wasn't picking upon those people, although I think it's pretty funny that you assume I must know nothing about science because I have been well educated in several different religions.
By the way, perhaps you missed the part where I said I don't believe in god? So stop assuming I am some close minded biggot.

I don't care if you believe in god, I only suggested that your catholic education changed your view of darwinism and atheism. I have no serious problems with people who believe in god but when someone say something bad and untrue about Darwin, evolution, etc., I'm furious. How can you say "Hardcore Darwinistic Athiests and Hardcore Biggoted Fundamentalists are all the same"? These "Hardcore Darwinistic Athiests" are very educated people who never threaten violence and they never discriminate anyone (unlike biggoted fundamentalists).

 

[Seppo]

It's pointless to argue about religion and science. Both sides just stick to their opinions, and the religion side will eventually always win because they can pull the "god created everything" card

 

[MJ12]

I don't care if you believe in god, I only suggested that your catholic education changed your view of darwinism and atheism. I have no serious problems with people who believe in god but when someone say something bad and untrue about Darwin, evolution, etc., I'm furious. How can you say "Hardcore Darwinistic Athiests and Hardcore Biggoted Fundamentalists are all the same"? These "Hardcore Darwinistic Athiests" are very educated people who never threaten violence and they never discriminate anyone (unlike biggoted fundamentalists).

Well I am talking about the individuals that go as far as to say religion should be outright banned from society. Which is very radical thinking. (yeah, I know Darwin and Dawkins doesn't say that, I am talking about specific individuals in society, just like how you were talking about fundi's)
Just because I don't believe in a religion doesn't mean others should have it completely taken away.

 

[Cheomesh]

I'm a big fan of the theory of Evolution but I'm still faithful to my religion; I interpret our creation not as literal creation of the body, but the formatting of our minds.

Hard to explain really.

 

[Krynn72]

This serves my point. Your "fair" ethics come from your upbringing, one of which has roots in a religion.

No, I just know about their ethics. Since my childhood, ive come to see most of them as the bullshit they actually are. Many people never question what they're taught by their parents and religious leaders.

If your point is simply to say that people's ethics are initialized by their upbringing, then yeah, i agree. But thats obvious to anyone. The point is that religion is neither the only source, nor a good source of morals and ethics.

I've said it before, there are way more close minded mule headed "atheists" in this forum than there are religious fanatics. You wouldn't admit to having a wrong opinion if Jesus came down and slapped you in the face. You would just keep arguing the same rhetoric that has been drilled into your head. If this were 500 years ago, you would be the ones calling for Galileo to be thrown in jail because he didn't agree with you.

Thats a downright lie and nothing but an unfounded insult. We all here base our opinions on empirical evidence, and should evidence come about, we would take it into consideration after determining its credibility. Thus far, absolutely nothing has like that exists.

 

[Dog--]

Didn't read anything in this thread besides the title, which is what I'm commenting on - How can anyone see religion as harmless? It's partly the cause for pretty much every war ever fought..

 

[MJ12]

This is exactly why I still view faith to be so useless and counter-productive.

No matter what your individual beliefs are, faith is useful to society as a whole.
You know why? Because the catholic church donates more money to charity than any other organization on the planet. Many charitible organizations are either run, or partially funded by the church.
Yeah, "useless", okay.

Ignorance can be just as deadly

Ironic.

 

[Raziaar]

Didn't read anything in this thread besides the title, which is what I'm commenting on - How can anyone see religion as harmless? It's partly the cause for pretty much every war ever fought..

Wrong. Don't pull shit out of your ass unless you plan to flush it.

 

[Krynn72]

No matter what your individual beliefs are, faith is useful to society as a whole.
You know why? Because the catholic church donates more money to charity than any other organization on the planet. Many charitible organizations are either run, or partially funded by the church.
Yeah, "useless", okay.

You keep using the same arguments every time, despite anything said to you. I'll quote that post I asked you to look at before.

The Catholic Church's benevolence is hamstrung by religious dogma that sometimes verges on being genocidal. Money and missionaries sent to Africa have good intent, but it comes with the strings attached. Namely, preaching of condom use as sinful. This is in areas where no other source of reliable information on contraception is available and where AIDS runs rampant. The Catholic Church's aid does little ****ing good if the people they're helping are dying because of Christian prudery over sex.

To say that religion is a force for good in any meaningful sense, it should be easy to establish that a lack of faith would entail an approach of apathy or even evil. But this is not the case. Secular doctors give aid without the preaching. It is enough to be motivated by human compassion. Christians giving aid may be truly motivated by the suffering of others, but they are ill-equipped if they try to factor their religion into it. Dangerously so, as is often the case.

People will help each other, with or without churches. Churches only serve as a middleman who use "charity" as an excuse to continue pushing their agenda on people.

 

[Cheomesh]

Wrong. Don't pull shit out of your ass unless you plan to flush it.

Some wars are for belief in a person, others for belief in a doctrine, others for land and wealth.

 

[Raziaar]

Plenty of wars have been fought for religion, or been negatively influenced and aggravated because of religion, but it's a stupid comment to say that all wars have been partly or fully caused because of religion. :hmph:

 

[MJ12]

People will help each other, with or without churches. Churches only serve as a middleman who use "charity" as an excuse to continue pushing their agenda on people.

What's your point? It gets the job done, thats what is important.

And if it wasn't for them, we'd have considerably less of a donation. Because christians feel obligated, and what not a better way for a bunch of people to believe they are doing "godly" things by donating money?- As long as it is for a good cause that's all that matters, and as long as they are not murdering you for it.

It's part of one big process, and the church is a key part in that. If one day you were to out them and say "okay, you guys will find a way to donate money", millions of people would be like "wha? who? huh?", because millions donate to the church, I don't care if it's a "middle man", it's still a process in getting it there. If the church was so useless so many people wouldn't donate to it.

 

[Dog--]

I said partly, and by partly I mean at the very least - 5% I don't mean like 75% cause of wars is religion, that's f*cking stupid.

 

[Raziaar]

I said partly, and by partly I mean at the very least - 5% I don't mean like 75% cause of wars is religion, that's f*cking stupid.

You're still wrong. Many wars out there have no religious ties. Power struggles yes, land yes, culture clashes yes, trite political conflicts yes.

 

[Wanted Bob]

What's your point? It gets the job done, thats what is important.

And if it wasn't for them, we'd have considerably less of a donation.

Seems kinda cynical. Do you have any proof?

 

[RidleyRockets]

No matter what your individual beliefs are, faith is useful to society as a whole.

This is a very big and very debatable claim. I think the body count isn't on your side.

You know why? Because the catholic church donates more money to charity than any other organization on the planet.

The biggest charity/foundation in the world is run by Bill Gates, who is an athiest.

The catholic church doesnt do much for society in Africa. The donation needed there is just the aproval of condoms.

Many charitible organizations are either run, or partially funded by the church.
Yeah, "useless", okay.

And many, including the biggest, are secular. Religion is not needed for charity.

 

[Dog--]

@Raz - Ok, then lets go back to my first post in this thread..

"It's partly the cause for pretty much every war ever fought.."

Pretty much does not mean 100%, ok whatever, who the hell cares.. Really.

 

[Raziaar]

@Raz - Ok, then lets go back to my first post in this thread..

"It's partly the cause for pretty much every war ever fought.."

Pretty much does not mean 100%, ok whatever, who the hell cares.. Really.

Heh. Well not me, but just to clarify, "pretty much every" to me sounds like it'd be in the 80-90% percentile range.

 

[ShinRa]

I fail to see how. Last time I checked scientists didn't fly a plane into a building, killng thousands and damaging the global economy.

Last I checked scientists invented small things like the atomic bomb and the nuclear bomb, both of which have the potential to wipe out mankind. Hiroshima was destroyed in 1945 thanks to science, not religion.