To those who see religion as harmless...

[Eejit]

Does it matter?

 

[Druckles]

Devil's advocate?

No. Just annoyed that some people critisize people about being closed minded when they just don't think.

 

[Stigmata]

I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself, maybe someone will respond the second time.

Oh yeah, and one more thing Cheo: The Bible was written by people. The Bible could not predate written language, which in turn could not predate society (as only a functioning society could support such a thing as written language). And society could not predate morality, because morality is a very fundamental idea to society (i.e. without morality, there is no social code to prevent the society from destroying itself in some form). So it follows that morality predates the Bible. Thus, any morality derived from the Bible is in fact derived from human morality.

 

[Absinthe]

No. Just annoyed that some people critisize people about being closed minded when they just don't think.

That's a real shame, because while religion is doubtlessly influential on much of human society, it is not the foundation of it.

 

[Druckles]

Only if you want me to waste my breath:

Religion predates the bible.

Edit: I never said it was the foundation of society.

Edit edit: I also hate it when people don't read my posts and yet manage to get stupid-ass assumptions from no-where

 

[Absinthe]

Our entire society is based off religion

Pardon me, but I believe I made a reasonable interpretation of your statement.

Dumbass.

 

[Druckles]

I didn't say it was the foundation. I said it's based off it.

Edit: Dumbass is not a reasonable argument

 

[delusional]

I was reading it up until this point:



At which point it became blatantly obvious the author didn't bother to do a single iota of research, and was just writing a rant.

Christianity and Judaism as a whole teaches that it's because of a fallen world that such things happen, not the work of demons.

Umm yes the people in Africa think it is the work of demons.

Heres another article on why religion ain't so harmless.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html

But an exploitative situation has now grown into something much more sinister as preachers are turning their attentions to children - naming them as witches. In a maddened state of terror, parents and whole villages turn on the child. They are burnt, poisoned, slashed, chained to trees, buried alive or simply beaten and chased off into the bush.

A day later there was a walk in the bush with her mother. They picked poisonous 'asiri' berries that were made into a draught and forced down Mary's throat. If that didn't kill her, her mother warned her, then it would be a barbed-wire hanging. Finally her mother threw boiling water and caustic soda over her head and body, and her father dumped his screaming daughter in a field. Drifting in and out of consciousness, she stayed near the house for a long time before finally slinking off into the bush.Mary was seven. She says she still doesn't feel safe. She says: 'My mother doesn't love me.' And, finally, a tear streaks down her beautiful face.

 

[Cheomesh]

I'm gonna go ahead and quote myself, maybe someone will respond the second time.

Sorry I missed your post the first time; when I click "last post" it sometimes put me several posts ahead of where I last posted.

Anyways, religion predates writing.


Now to the guy some pages back that says we need religion because we drive ethics from it and without we would be unethical, no. You're just not listening. At all. I said we derived our ethics from it, not that we do so now. Past tense. Also, I'm one for thinking without the mindset that you will get anything out of strong ethical and moral dealings, people will become smart enough to realize they don't need to do the whole morals thing. Note hippies.

 

[Krynn72]

I didn't say it was the foundation. I said it's based off it.

Edit: Dumbass is not a reasonable argument

Its the same ****ing thing.

Basis:

1. the bottom or base of anything; the part on which something stands or rests.
2. anything upon which something is based; fundamental principle; groundwork.
3. the principal constituent; fundamental ingredient.
4. a basic fact, amount, standard, etc., used in making computations, reaching conclusions, or the like: The nurse is paid on an hourly basis. He was chosen on the basis of his college grades.
5. Mathematics. a set of linearly independent elements of a given vector space having the property that every element of the space can be written as a linear combination of the elements of the set.

Foundation:

1. the basis or groundwork of anything: the moral foundation of both society and religion.
2. the natural or prepared ground or base on which some structure rests.
3. the lowest division of a building, wall, or the like, usually of masonry and partly or wholly below the surface of the ground.
4. the act of founding, setting up, establishing, etc.: a policy in effect since the foundation.
5. the state of being founded.


They're ****ing synonyms. You said exactly what Absinthe thought you said, and you are pretending its not what you said now that you've been proven wrong.

Also, I'm one for thinking without the mindset that you will get anything out of strong ethical and moral dealings, people will become smart enough to realize they don't need to do the whole morals thing. Note hippies.

What the ****? That statement is false on so many grounds. What kind of evidence do you have for such a bullshit opinion? And since when have hippies not abided by any morals? Seriously, what the ****?

 

[Stigmata]

Sorry I missed your post the first time; when I click "last post" it sometimes put me several posts ahead of where I last posted.

Anyways, religion predates writing.

Touche. I don't know why I didn't see that flaw when I wrote it.

 

[Cheomesh]

Look, I'm going to continue to worship wisdom, knowledge, personal responsibility, and honor whether you want me to or not.

Your Humanism is interesting. Go for it. Maybe I'll join you some day. But do us all a favor, keep your beliefs to yourself. Arguing for a religion is just as bad as arguing against a religion. If it is a cornerstone in someones life, and helps them deal with reality, fine. An athiest is as welcome at my table as the Jew or Catholic.

 

[ktimekiller]

talk about double standard, science and politics have caused great and many deaths just as religion has. Stop bashing on religions, srsly

 

[Stigmata]

The only problem is, science and politics can lay claim to having benefited humanity. Religion kind of killed a lot of people and then made all the others stupider.

 

[Krynn72]

Also, science doesnt get in the way of religion helping people... but religion does get in the way of science helping people.

 

[Jintor]

I don't see how your basis that Religion is the foundation of Civilisation is grounds for its continued existence. What was useful then might not really be all that useful now.

 

[Cheomesh]

The only problem is, science and politics can lay claim to having benefited humanity. Religion kind of killed a lot of people and then made all the others stupider.

I've also known people who have cleaned up their lifestyle through spirituality.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

teh vaccines is how they control you. It's not religious, it's mind controls! They'll never make me take one. Shot free for 5 years. * @ teh man*

 

[ktimekiller]

I've also known people who have cleaned up their lifestyle through spirituality.

Agreed, many people have found religion, and have abandoned their bad ways of life. Not saying religion is a life saver, or taking religion will make a man better, but many people seek spirituality and clean themselves of their past mistakes and seek a more honest life.

 

[Stigmata]

I've also known people who have cleaned up their lifestyle through spirituality.

Which comes at the price of intellectual integrity and shaping your morals to abide by the Good Book.

 

[Cheomesh]

Which comes at the price of intellectual integrity and shaping your morals to abide by the Good Book.

Explain? I don't quite understand.

 

[Krynn72]

Explain? I don't quite understand.

He was saying that while it may have "saved" them, they now abide by the morality of the bible... which usually isnt very moral.

 

[Stigmata]

Exactly. They are "saved" and start to live a clean, wholesome life. Good for them. But I have not heard of a single instance of someone being "saved" who did not immediately abandon some or all of their previously held morals in favor of the moral ideas supported by the Bible and whatever Christian sect said person happened to be saved by.

And I don't think I need to elaborate on why believing in Genesis and a magic man in the sky would have a negative impact on your intellectual integrity.

 

[Cheomesh]

Exactly. They are "saved" and start to live a clean, wholesome life. Good for them. But I have not heard of a single instance of someone being "saved" who did not immediately abandon some or all of their previously held morals in favor of the moral ideas supported by the Bible and whatever Christian sect said person happened to be saved by.

And I don't think I need to elaborate on why believing in Genesis and a magic man in the sky would have a negative impact on your intellectual integrity.

Sounds like a personal problem if they become like that. Clean lifestyle = good for society I think.

 

[Absinthe]

That "clean lifestyle" can be a detriment to society and all its progress.

also can all u fundamentalist atheists be less ignrant plz k thx cuz sience has killed pplz too

 

[Skaadi]

I suppose it is, but what I meant was why some religious people do hate vaccinations. It just doesn't make sense.

Oh I get you now. Eh, there are idiots in every group I guess. Something designed to help you = bad. Yeah...makes perfect sense.

 

[Cheomesh]

That "clean lifestyle" can be a detriment to society and all its progress.

In what way? They could be using the time previously spent doing detrimental things productively.

 

[Absinthe]

In what way? They could be using the time previously spent doing detrimental things productively.

Because despite the debatable personal benefit of living such a life, there are many different opinions on what a clean lifestyle actually entails.

Somebody's idea of a wholesome society, for instance, could be the abolition of homosexuality. The United States isn't in danger of having this happen, but many places in the Middle East certainly try to. And they do so on the religious belief that homosexuality is deviant, impure, and "unclean". At the very least, when masses of people who share prejudiced views of homosexuality go to vote, it can negatively affect the rights and civil liberties of gays.

Some people, in accordance with adopting their new religious lifestyle, would see it as imperative that the teaching of evolution be abandoned and the instruction of Intelligent Design take its place. When enough people think this, they can make changes to education that could breed an entire generation of ignorance. Some even go so far as to oppose medical treatment of STDs on the grounds that they serve as a good impediment to premarital sex. There are even those that oppose treatment of cancer. Thousands, if not millions of people would suffer and die for the sake of such a lifestyle. In fact, this is what is happening currently with stem cell research.

This is not to say that everybody who believes in God suddenly becomes immoral. A lot of moderates are virtually indistinguishable from any atheist. But then these people most often aren't the kinds of people who treat their religion as seriously as, say, a fundamentalist. And fundamentalism is very mainstream in a lot of the world today. There are better ways to clean up your life that don't require you to accept absurd, unproven claims. There are ways that don't involve picking up a prejudice or impeding medical science. We shouldn't abolish faith in light of this, certainly. But the point remains that inarguably superior methods of life-affirmation are available.

On a related tangent, it is true that science has enabled death and killing, just like religion has. You couldn't blow up Hiroshima without a bomb. You couldn't snipe JFK without a rifle. But science is amoral, and the moral intentions of whatever it produces have to be ascribed by the people who use them. You might be thinking "That's unfair! Religion is the same!" but that's simply not the case. When the Bible says that you should kill your children for being insolent, there is no room for moral freedom on the reader's end. You cannot pick up that passage and use it for either good or evil. It is unquestionably evil. A parallel can be drawn to Islam's emphasis on emulating Mohammed, who was by all accounts a vicious warlord. People who "interpret" the Bible and find ways of working around that are not actually interpreting. They are abandoning a part of their faith which they have found to be untenable. It's said that religion enforces morality, but this is not shown to be the case. The erosion of religion has improved our moral capacity. Not the embrace of it.

And unlike science, religion has stopped being useful in this day and age. Yes, that is my personal call. No, I don't care if belief in God saved your life or did great things for you. As far as I'm concerned, such feats are nowhere near exclusive to faith. For every person that science has indirectly killed, an equal amount (if not more) have been saved. Quality of life is greater than it ever has been, or at least it is in the countries that have embraced scientific progress over godly mysticism (hint hint). Despite the potential for destruction science poses, the immense payoffs have made it a consistently useful and worthwhile endeavor. Science is also able to produce counters and solutions to previous threats. You could get shot by a gun and blame science if you want. But when you get checked into a hospital and have a fully-trained medical team perform complex procedures on your body and restore you to health with surgery and medications, was it years of science-driven medical research and technology that saved your life? Or was it God?

It's disappointing how many people choose the latter. If we were to drop science today and got left with only religion, we'd hurtle back to the dark ages, and maybe - just maybe - we'd find use for faith again as we huddle in the dark and pray to imaginary beings for miracles we're more than able to provide.
If we dropped religion, we'd have more atheists probably. Big whoop. Worthwhile tradeoff, anybody? Any one?

That should highlight the immense difference between the two.

 

[Raziaar]

Has nothing to do with your post. Just thought it'd be funny in a thread such as this, since it was a sea of text.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm more offended by your choice of forum color scheme. It's atrocious!

Blue ftw.

 

[[Matt]]

Agreed, many people have found religion, and have abandoned their bad ways of life. Not saying religion is a life saver, or taking religion will make a man better, but many people seek spirituality and clean themselves of their past mistakes and seek a more honest life.

You can be an atheist and still be spiritual

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2089733934372500371&hl=en

btw i think this thread has gone beyond its means and gone way off topic... time to let this one die?

 

[Raziaar]

You can be an atheist and still be spiritual

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2089733934372500371&hl=en

btw i think this thread has gone beyond its means and gone way off topic... time to let this one die?

How can you be atheist and still be spiritual? If you don't believe in the logical existence of god, how are you going to believe in the logical existence of a spirit?

Atheists believe you rot in the ground, they don't believe the body has a spirit.

What kind of spirituality are you talking about?

 

[Cheomesh]

I am tempted to post stuff on the Havamal just to see what people think about it.

Hm.

 

[Absinthe]

How can you be atheist and still be spiritual? If you don't believe in the logical existence of god, how are you going to believe in the logical existence of a spirit?

An atheist is not inherently logical. This is a misconception. You do not become rational because you're an atheist. Atheism should be a natural consequence of reason.

Atheists can subscribe to spiritualism as much as they want. Because atheism only pertains to God and nothing else.

 

[Eejit]

He was saying that while it may have "saved" them, they now abide by the morality of the bible... which usually isnt very moral.

It's sad how you have to keep resorting to this type of argument. Bringing up laws written thousands of years ago which people don't follow anymore and are irrelevant to our times as if this means the Bible is evul lul.

Most Christians realise that the Old Testament is only included to show the prophecies that Jesus is said to have fulfilled and to show the background of how he lived as a Jew of those times.
New Testament > Old Testament for everyone who isn't already inclined to intolerance and hatred and is looking for any excuse of a justification. You'd have problems with them anyway /shrug

And don't bring up that single line Jesus said about not forgetting the Old Testament. A lot of what he said contradicted it, i.e. turn the other cheek vs eye for an eye. Every Christian with half a brain knows that stoning disobedient children and all that jazz isn't meant to be part of Christianity.

As for the Jews the Talmud basically makes most of the harsh punishments pretty impossible to carry out these days.


Anyway might as well let this thread die it's the same arguments, twisting of facts and misinterpreting of statements as these discussions always descend into.

 

[Raziaar]

An atheist is not inherently logical. This is a misconception. You do not become rational because you're an atheist. Atheism should be a natural consequence of reason.

Atheists can subscribe to spiritualism as much as they want. Because atheism only pertains to God and nothing else.

I guess so... but all the atheists I come across are the "God doesn't exist, and every aspect of the world must be seen in logical sense or else you are an idiot" types.

 

[Absinthe]

Well, that's a commonality. Atheists are just as capable of being irrational when it comes to other things.

It's just that most people come to atheism the same way: disillusionment with religion and an absence of evidence.

 

[[Matt]]

I posted a link to watch regarding spiritualism and atheism... fast forward to 23:30 into the video and watch onwards...

 

[Absinthe]

And don't bring up that single line Jesus said about not forgetting the Old Testament. A lot of what he said contradicted it, i.e. turn the other cheek vs eye for an eye. Every Christian with half a brain knows that stoning disobedient children and all that jazz isn't meant to be part of Christianity.

So? the line says what the line says. Now you can chalk this up to a translation error, human fallibility in its writers, contradictory accounts... whatever.

This is all the more reason to dispense with it. And it's perfectly understandable how one can construe parts of the Bible. Rationalizing your dismissal of the OT is a big load of apologetics. The only reason it's ignored mostly these days is because our moral zeitgeist has changed.

 

[Eejit]

It's ignored because it was relevant to society over 2000 years ago, not today.
That's not apologetics it's common sense... but I guess it doesn't fit your arguments for Christians (or anyone defending them) to have common sense.