U.S. Military Draft

[crabcakes66]

Yeah becuase remember kids....you can only be american if you like to kill stuff for no reason.
:dozey:

its a generalized statement saying "yes, go ahead and attend your peace rallies, go ahead and object to the war" but do not let your personal beliefs rise above another american (esp soldiers) life. how could you live with yourself knowing that some other guy with a family died for you? get the hell out of america if you arent willing to go to war for it (not directed at you in particular, obviously)

I could live with it just fine if your stupid enough to go die for your politcal beliefs in a non-critical war...

 

[r4z0r_bl4d3]

its a generalized statement saying "yes, go ahead and attend your peace rallies, go ahead and object to the war" but do not let your personal beliefs rise above another american (esp soldiers) life. how could you live with yourself knowing that some other guy with a family died for you? get the hell out of america if you arent willing to go to war for it (not directed at you in particular, obviously)

How dare you tell any american to leave america! This war in Iraq is not a war, it was an unprovoked attack by good old President Bush. We attacked Saddam and Iraq becuse we thought Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Well WHERE ARE THEY? Now the official cause of attacking Iraq is because Saddam was an evil tyrant. WHAT ABOUT NORTH KOREA or a dozen other countries with similar rulers, AND MORE DESTRUCTIVE WEAPONS THAN SADDAM EVER HAD!!

No, I dont disagree with you, dont get me wrong. But soldiers are dying for oil so you can pay higher and higher gas prices to put gas in your SUV and plaster it with american flags. Well guess what, I actually THINK about what comes out of Bush's mouth and I see he is lying through his teeth.

You know where else they had blind patriots who told people to wholeheartedly support thier country or get out?



NAZI GERMANY!!!

 

[Neutrino]

I could live with it just fine if your stupid enough to go die for your politcal beliefs in a non-critical war...

I hope that statement was merely a response referring to the person you quoted and not your opinion about the deaths of the men and women who have actually died in the war.

 

[crabcakes66]

I hope that statement was merely a response referring to the person you quoted and not your opinion about the deaths of the men and women who have actually died in the war.

You hope correctly. I have the utmost respect for our soldiers past and present. I just hate hearing all this stupid garbage about being "unamerican".

Especialy from people like gh0st. Its people like him that are why the rest of the world hates us. He gives America a bad name.

 

[Neutrino]

You hope correctly. I have the utmost respect for our soldiers past and present. I just hate hearing all this stupid garbage about being "unamerican".

Especialy from people like gh0st.

Just thought I'd check.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

I dont think ghost(i thought ghostvalkyrie was being talked about,h owever it appears he wasnt...but to a large extent my point stands) has given the US a bad name. From what ive seen of him, he seems to be quite an upstanding citizen of the country. Perhaps you dont like his patriotism but thats you problem.

One section of america doesnt give the country a bad name, the rest of the world gives the country a bad name. I like the general public of america, even though i have my gripes with them. However, someone sitting next to me on a bus may think differently. Perhaps in the media of other countries, america is portrayed badly but that is their agenda...its not because of people like ghost or anyone else in the country that America is given a bad name.

 

[Fat Tony!]

You hope correctly. I have the utmost respect for our soldiers past and present. I just hate hearing all this stupid garbage about being "unamerican".

Especialy from people like gh0st. Its people like him that are why the rest of the world hates us. He gives America a bad name.

Agreed this is exactly the stuff that make me feel hate, but I can see from this thread that not everyone in this thread are arorgent (sp) and foolish. You cant blame people for not going to war, war is the worst thing that happens to this world. Who gives a shit if your country needs you or crap like that, I personally am not potentially wasting my life which i could make good use of, to fight in a war, anywar. Iraqi war is just to a extent, but its still war. Afganistan was revenge very unjust indeed!
I also think that you cant blame people to be scared of going to war, telling people that they are "pussies" is a form of bulling why should they give up their lives? No one should, if it is to defend the country then fine but this defainly isnt.

 

[Direwolf]

I already said I'd go to war if asked. It wouldn't be for my government, or for my country (no matter how much I liked them), it would be for the people who need me whether they be fellow soldiers or civilians. I'll gladly serve my place knowing that there isn't going to be anyone serving in my stead because of it.
Something to keep in mind with the super-patriotic American stereotype: no one is that one sided or simple. The best advice is to find a person who you think is like that and talk to them for a while (not argue, talk). I'm not saying you'll find they'll agree with you, but you'll find out theres a lot more to this sort of person than you ever thought. There is a reason they think this way, especially in America. Americans have always been defined by an over developed sense of individualism, so why would they blindly follow any government?

 

[Maxi]

Most americans i've met are idiots, either way over-patriotic or just assholes.

 

[Direwolf]

Very few people, no matter where they are on the planet, are going to act like an asshole to you unless you act like one to them first. I mean come on, even if they're just feigning politeness they're still not acting like jerks.

 

[Korgoth]

I wouldn't go, sorry I just wouldn't. Call me a pussy call me whatever (you can talk big when your to young to go) I don't believe in killing, I don't believe in being part of an organization that kills. I'm affraid to go to a foreign place and be hunted to my death. I'm affraid of being away from my family and friends. I want to live my life in peace... I contribute to society, I donate to charities, I pay taxes, I work 5 days a week. I also don't believe in this war for what it was sold as, I still don't. I have two really good friends who are in the military and one is in baghdad right now, you know what his last email he sent me said? He said he hated it, he wished he never would have joined and he didn't think they were wanted there.
This isn't a competition, I am here to live, not here to die for what some suite and tie says I should die for. All you patriots can keep your patriotism, you know what it will get you in the end? Nothing. Sure we could have worse for a government but we could have better if you ask me, you wanna know whats holding that back? Blind faith, you wanna die for your country? Die making it a better place, why not retake washington and make this a nation built by the people for the people like its supposed to be.

 

[Maxi]

I diddn't mean anyone on this forum, most people here are nice and friendly, I spoke about my experience when gaming and other forums. Oh and also from comments like yours. When people make assumptions before they know why another person said something.

 

[Direwolf]

I never said you were an asshole, but I found it hard to believe that every American you have ever met is an asshole, unless there was some other factor going on. People are just generally people, no matter where they're from. They're never as different as they're made out to be.

 

[phantomdesign]

Casualties are still quite minimal in Iraq. Compare the war in Iraw to other wars. Stuff will have to get really bad for the draft to be initiated.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Still doesn't matter. They might be in it for schooling but they'll be trained just as good as those who are there for more patriotic purposes. When they have to fight for their lives and the lives of their friends it won't matter what they joined for.

Oh, but it does. In the end, if they do not support the war, they will not fight.
Just like the man who lobbed the grenade in his commanding Officer's tent, killing 14 soldiers. Or the three Marines who refused to go to war and attempted to sue the President...even after they entered a contract binding them to do so. Needless to say the law suit was thrown out because of breach of contract, but never thel ess it happened.

 

[ray_MAN]

I would love there to be a draft again. My parents aren't too hot on me wanting to join the military, but if I get drafted, they would have no choice. Besides, all of us should be taking part in this goddamned war.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I wouldn't go, sorry I just wouldn't. Call me a pussy call me whatever (you can talk big when your to young to go) I don't believe in killing, I don't believe in being part of an organization that kills.

It's your freedom to not join, and I respect that. What I don't respect is you dumbing down the lives of those who died for you, just by calling them an Organization that kills. For hundreds of years those men have killed so people like you could live. Without them, there weouldn't be an America, there wouldn't be you, the Jews would've been exterminated, Hitler would have succeeded and have Europe and most of Asia in his pocket...God only knows waht else at this point. The bravery of soldiers from nations taking part in any war to stop such acts as Hitler, Milosevic, Hussein, etc should be recognized and respected.

 

[Fat Tony!]

Aha, well actually the US milatry have never needed to defend their own soil ever, so they didnt die for anyone. All they do is go around bullying other countryies, yeh the hitler thing is all well and good but you cant compare completely different situations like that, its just stupid.
The people who die in battle, sure poor guys its a terrible thing but you cant blame people who decide not to go, its the people in charge that are to blame: milatry command and the government. To an extent of course...

 

[DarkStar]

Aha, well actually the US milatry have never needed to defend their own soil ever

3 examples come immediately to mind.

1. Revolutionary War
2. War of 1812
3. Pearl Harbor

There's probably more.

 

[DimitriPopov]

So a draft because of 600 casualties? Bullshit , if you think otherwise youre probably too scared of the draft , or just a fool. There are maybe 100,000 troops deployed in Iraq , thats not a huge portion of people whom are already in the military.

Aha, well actually the US milatry have never needed to defend their own soil ever, so they didnt die for anyone. All they do is go around bullying other countryies, yeh the hitler thing is all well and good but you cant compare completely different situations like that, its just stupid.
The people who die in battle, sure poor guys its a terrible thing but you cant blame people who decide not to go, its the people in charge that are to blame: milatry command and the government. To an extent of course...

****ing brilliant. Since youre from England , British Empire much?

I love this forum <3 So much intelligence..

 

[Lil' Timmy]

So a draft because of 600 casualties? Bullshit , if you think otherwise youre probably too scared of the draft , or just a fool.

popov, click the original link buddy.. i don't think there'd be a draft either, but people are talking about it.

****ing brilliant. Since youre from England , British Empire much?

?? "british empire much?"?? is that like a new verb-phrase?
"hey y'all lets go british empire this chump clan" or "don't make me go british empire on yo' ass fool!"

like that? just curious

 

[fizzlephox]

That sounds so cool... "I'm gonna go all british empire up in here!". It combines the essence of crazy mofo and imperial power all in one.

 

[pat_thetic]

I agree. I meant it mainly as a hypothetical question.

Woops, hehe

 

[Fat Tony!]

Hooray for mindless insults!

 

[GhostValkyrie]

I guess we were bullying Saddam when we stoppe his invasion of Kuwait?
I guess we were also bullying Milosevic when we stopped his genocides in Kosovo and Bosnia?

 

[DimitriPopov]

Hooray for mindless insults!

I matched your mindless , unintelligable , and unresearched USA bashing with a quick short 'insult'. Maybe you should just stick to arguing about something you know about eh?

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Damn, I meant to say stopped. Sorry, went from compy too long to fix error.

 

[Korgoth]

It's your freedom to not join, and I respect that. What I don't respect is you dumbing down the lives of those who died for you, just by calling them an Organization that kills. For hundreds of years those men have killed so people like you could live. Without them, there weouldn't be an America, there wouldn't be you, the Jews would've been exterminated, Hitler would have succeeded and have Europe and most of Asia in his pocket...God only knows waht else at this point. The bravery of soldiers from nations taking part in any war to stop such acts as Hitler, Milosevic, Hussein, etc should be recognized and respected.

You know, I never asked them to. And your speaking of a different time.
You can hardly compare this war we are in now to the likes of world war 2.
And to assume I have no respect is pretty presumptious, I have friends in the military making sacrifices as I type this, best friends, who I respect and love more than you would ever know. But they know how I feel about war, and they don't have a problem with it. I don't respect the idea of war, or the idea of aggresive government, if your going to compare then I'd say its closer to the mob, than to government. I hate the establishment not the people who joined with good intentions.

 

[Kadayi]

GV, i know where you're coming from, you've made your stance pretty clear since i've been on these forums.

this is now somewhat off-topic, but my disagreement with you comes down to the fate of iraq itself, and what it means about our leadership. no one can tell the future, but i don't share your optimism about either the current state of iraq or it's future. before the war, lots of people believed that the current "quagmire" situation would evolve out of the US war plans. the question comes down to how expensive is freedom?

when you remove the force (be it murderous and tyrannical) that stablizes a fractious nation.. you're gonna get civil war. it's almost a given. i've said it before, and i'll say it again. imo, iraq looks like it's headed for a sectarian civil war, or a simple shiite fundamentalist theocracy that will be no better for iraqis than the bathists.

afghanistan was a good model, tbh. the taliban was the faction that had the power, and they destroyed the majority of the other post-soviet afghan factions. the hazara were especially badly hit, but uzbeks and tajiks got persecuted and crushed by the pattan-dominated taliban too. that's why they all joined the northern alliance. and we all remember that not long before we invaded, the taliban started branding non-muslims ala hitler's identification badges.

personally (and i truely hope i'm wrong), i think iraq is an extremely tribal society that could very easily turn down the same road as afghanistan. by all outward appearances, it seems like the longer the US is there, the more likely the majority (shiites) will be to really take over with force when we do pull out. national iraqi resentment seems to be growing, not being stifled by our presence.

i dunno, it's a complex issue. on one hand, because of what i've presented above, i feel like the US needs to maintain a force in order to prevent the total ruination of iraq. certainly now we have that responsibility. in that sense, i'd be more likely to accept a draft now than i would have been before the war started. the latter was an unjust war, imo, but the former case is righting a wrong.

that said, i can't help but feel that our military presence in iraq is what is actually stoking the fire our military is currently tasked with extinguishing. i'm the type of person that certainly won't commit to dying or killing (or seriving in a support role) unless i have almost no doubts about the motivations and logistics of the operation. i have serious doubts about both in this case.

i personally find it repugnant that some people seem to jump right in or out of the question at hand with very little thought about the reality of the situation. it is neither virtuous nor patriotic in my view to blindly reject or serve your government. i'm not accusing you of this at all GV, you seem to be pretty thoughtful about it all, but we disagree on the analysis it seems.

anyway, if i become convinced that maintaining a US presence in iraq is truely in the best interest of iraqis and americans, i could be persuaded to accept a draft calling, but that seems unlikely at this point.

Really nicely written post dude.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

You know, I never asked them to. And your speaking of a different time.
You can hardly compare this war we are in now to the likes of world war 2.
And to assume I have no respect is pretty presumptious, I have friends in the military making sacrifices as I type this, best friends, who I respect and love more than you would ever know. But they know how I feel about war, and they don't have a problem with it. I don't respect the idea of war, or the idea of aggresive government, if your going to compare then I'd say its closer to the mob, than to government. I hate the establishment not the people who joined with good intentions.

I wasn't talking about the Govt., but the military. I'm not saying you have to respect war, I'm not saying you have to respect the Govt., I'm not even saying you have to respect the Military,(I can't tell you waht to do, it's not my place.) but that those men deserve respect. Men who join with the intention of fighting for freedom, national defense, and for the greater good they see in it. Soldiers deserve civilian support.

Just to get this clear. You hate the Military, but not the soldiers in it?

 

[gh0st]

3 examples come immediately to mind.

1. Revolutionary War
2. War of 1812
3. Pearl Harbor

There's probably more.

yeah there is one, its called 9/11.

im not some kind of uber patriotic person... imagine the discust of many who were sent to vietnam? did they disagree with the war? yes, many did. did they run to canada like pussies? no, they did the right god damn thing which is to protect american lives, and american soldiers. they were brave enough to step it up, not for their government but for lives that could potentially depend upon them.

disagreeing with bush is good, i dont particularly agree with the war in iraq, but would i go anyway? yeah, i would, because its the right thing to do. not because i believe in it, but because other soldiers depend upon you. get it cowards?

 

[GhostValkyrie]

yeah there is one, its called 9/11.

im not some kind of uber patriotic person... imagine the discust of many who were sent to vietnam? did they disagree with the war? yes, many did. did they run to canada like pussies? no, they did the right god damn thing which is to protect american lives, and american soldiers. they were brave enough to step it up, not for their government but for lives that could potentially depend upon them.

disagreeing with bush is good, i dont particularly agree with the war in iraq, but would i go anyway? yeah, i would, because its the right thing to do. not because i believe in it, but because other soldiers depend upon you. get it cowards?

While 9/11 was indeed the opening act of war, the enemy is known but hides from punishment. We can't simply look for "Al-Quedastan" in hopes of seizing Bin Laden...which even in Iraq, Saddam was caught hiding in a hole. So, this is a bit different. But undeniably Afghanistan a war of defense.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

disagreeing with bush is good, i dont particularly agree with the war in iraq, but would i go anyway? yeah, i would, because its the right thing to do. not because i believe in it, but because other soldiers depend upon you. get it cowards?

that's simple-minded and demonstrates no "bravery" whatsoever, just thoughtlessness. killing/dying for something you don't believe in? that's literally insane, not brave.

was it virtuous for the men in iraq to join up in their military even though they knew what the bathists were doing? why don't you believe in the war? if you want to save your fellow man, there are better/smarter ways of doing it than participating in a war you don't agree with. i know you like throwing the 'coward' word around, but seriously, use your head gh0st.

 

[fizzlephox]

Lil' Timmy seems to be a much better communicator than you gh0st. I like it when people don't constantly end their very short discussion on their viewpoints by calling out people as cowards or pussies.

Also Vietnam was not to protect American lives it was to further America's political power by stopping the spread of the communist form of government America was afraid of. Who paid the most for the Vietnam War? The people of Vietnam did and we were the ones trying to force our way of life onto them. Much like how we're trying to force our way of life on the Iraqi's. Not everyone wants to live like we do and it's not our place to force a constant state of war and conflict on them until we get our way.

 

[not28]

I would move to Canada like a frightened pussy.
Personally I disagree with the Iraq war because the risks are too much for the purported outcome.

 

[Foxtrot]

So many people bitch and whine about so many things, has anyone ever thought of writing a letter/sending an e-mail so someone...maybe a senator....

 

[not28]

You could try writing a letter about all the people who bitch and whine about so many things. That might get some action done.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

The Iraqis I know want a democratic Iraq, I've heard Iraqis displeased with the war, but happy that it finally happened and Saddam has been captured. Of course, I don't know every Iraqi, but every Iraqi I've met supported the war and many will soon be returning home. I'm going to miss them. *sniffle* Anyway, I doubt the Iraqis liked Saddam and not being able to make decisions for themselves, Fizzle. Not saying you like Saddam, just wondering if you're taking the tone they don't want to be free?

 

[qckbeam]

If a draft were to be instated right now I wouldn't go. I don't want to participate in a war I don't believe in. I don't want to risk losing the most important thing I have for something I don't believe in, I won't kill for something I don't believe in. I wouldn't fight in a war unless it really was important and I felt the cause to be a just one. I can't stand the thought of slaughtering other humans, I wouldn't do it unless I really felt it was necessary. I'd only do it if there was no other choice. I'm just not willing to give up my life for something like Iraq. In my opinion the war was an unjust one, and losing my life to an unjust cause, or taking the lives of others in the name of an unjust cause disgusts me.
Anyway, if there was a draft I wouldn't go. I don't see what's so cowardly about that, after all, I'm just standing firm by my beliefs.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

If a draft were to be instated right now I wouldn't go. I don't want to participate in a war I don't believe in. I don't want to risk losing the most important thing I have for something I don't believe in, I won't kill for something I don't believe in. I wouldn't fight in a war unless it really was important and I felt the cause to be a just one. I can't stand the thought of slaughtering other humans, I wouldn't do it unless I really felt it was necessary. I'd only do it if there was no other choice. I'm just not willing to give up my life for something like Iraq. In my opinion the war was an unjust one, and losing my life to an unjust cause, or taking the lives of others in the name of an unjust cause disgusts me.
Anyway, if there was a draft I wouldn't go. I don't see what's so cowardly about that, after all, I'm just standing firm by my beliefs.

Hmmm...Would you go for a Klondike bar?