U.S. signaling end to rebuilding Iraq

[ríomhaire]

This just re-enforces one of my close friend's many sayings:
"You're so stupid you could be president of America!"

 

[dream431ca]

That's a shitty reason to be negative towards US citizens. We don't take any part in these dumb-f*ck decisions.

Can't wait for 2008.

(New slogan of mine. Course, then our President will be Hilary Clinton and we will be proper f*cked)...and doomed to some worse fate than a bad democracy.

First off, I wasn't negative towards the citizens. I said the citizens had nothing to do with it. And I agree I can't wait until 2008.

 

[CptStern]

wont make a difference in 2008 ..bush is just a figurehead ..the neo-conservatives can still hold considerable power ...remember Rumsfeld and Cheney have worked for other presidents pretty mcuh doing what they're doing now ...only more behind the scenes

 

[Javert]

Why? So the war doesn't seem so bad? We invaded them and took over the country, destroying lots and killing many in the process. Get over it. It's war. Doesn't mean we're obligated to rebuilding it.

If we don't rebuild, then the war itself was a waste. And the hundreds of billions of dollars also a waste. And the lives of over 2,000 US soldiers that not only protected the rebuilding, but acted towards it, a waste.
Hell, we aren't obligated to anything aren't we!

You're trying to justify stealing my money to pay for rebuilding something that I never supported destroying in the first place.

If you move to another country, they will NOT be "stealing your money" to pay for rebuilding. You should consider it.

This is why I and others never agreed in the "Mission Accomplished" or the "This will be smooth sailing" or "Just like Japan in WWII" people said. It's called a quagmire.

 

[Raeven0]

That's not very nice. If we destroyed the nation for stupid reasons we should at least have the decency to rebuild it for good reasons.

Even we who didn't want to destroy it in the first place...

 

[Cole]

.....but... it was all based on lies this wouldnt have happened otherwise

Tell me how many nations believed Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction and I'll give you a cookie.

US banned EU countries as well as other countries from bidding on contracts

Obviously to give jobs and a boost for americans.. Also you quoted the part where I was taling about "security" that has nothin to do with security. Right now yes Iraqi'es do not have most rebuilding jobs but after American Corporations leave..who is going to rebuild Iraq? Iraqies are thats how.

"...rather than concentrating on achieving a specific level of damage to individual targets or target sets, the goal was to achieve a greater impact, such as shutting down the national electric power grid"

Of course it's war, it's a strategic point to help ease up on individual targets. Of course I would agree because of citizens it is rather a bit harsh.

all I'm saying is that there's a certain level of responsibility that the US needs to step up to here since they caused it

Thats why we are giving Iraq to the people, why we have been rebuilding it, why we are going to give a jumpstart to there economy, why we arn't just pulling out to leave Iraq on there own when they can fall much easier than they have tried getting it.
Don't say we arn't rebuilding it after we destroyed it because the fact is we have been rebuilding it. We can't rebuild them forever and taking our corporations out of their now and letting Iraqies get in there will be good for there economy.

I don't agree why we went in there but I do agree about staying there and that taking our corporations out and letting Iraqies take over, and then slowly pulling our army out as Iraq builds more of it's own army and defenses and can handle itself.

 

[CptStern]

Tell me how many nations believed Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction and I'll give you a cookie.

with information supplied by the US and the UK

Obviously to give jobs and a boost for americans..

and you dont see a problem with that? they're not there to help themselves they're there to help iraqis ..it's not supposed to be about grabbing a piece of the pie ..funny how every single corporation that landed those fat contracts contributed to the bush election. Funny how millions are missing from the fund that was supposed to go into helping rebuild iraq, funny how time and again more and more corporations are being accused of padding bills and overinflating contract estimates, funny how the US even went so far as breaking international law when it gave exclusive contracts to american companies breaking the WTO's Agreement on Government Procurement which the US signed ..on the surface it looks downright humanitarian but you really dont have to dig too deep to see the feeding frenzy going on behind the scenes

Also you quoted the part where I was taling about "security" that has nothin to do with security. Right now yes Iraqi'es do not have most rebuilding jobs but after American Corporations leave..who is going to rebuild Iraq? Iraqies are thats how.

american corporations are not going to leave, why else would they rewrite Iraqi patent laws? why else would they be awarded contracts in the billions if only to leave before the work is completed?

Of course it's war, it's a strategic point to help ease up on individual targets. Of course I would agree because of citizens it is rather a bit harsh.

it's a war crime, international law forbids any country from targeting infrastructure deemed necessary to sustain human life ..the US squeezed their way out of that one by claiming the power plants and water treatment facilities could have a dual use purpose: they could also give water and electricity to saddam's troops ..they were destroyed within a matter of weeks back in 1991 ..and were never repaired (US withheld components that Iraq needed to rebuild the treatment plants during the sanctions) ...over 500,000 children died during the sanctions as a result

Thats why we are giving Iraq to the people, why we have been rebuilding it, why we are going to give a jumpstart to there economy, why we arn't just pulling out to leave Iraq on there own when they can fall much easier than they have tried getting it.

oh come on man, you're an intelligent fellow, you cant possibly expect me to swallow that ..it was coldly calculated way in advance, the WMD was fabricated before the war started and yet you want me to believe that they had a complete change of heart and flipflopped overnight? There is no way that the US after spending billions to take down saddam are going to let whomever stroll right in and do whatever they like ..thr US has already said they will be in iraq indefinately

Don't say we arn't rebuilding it after we destroyed it because the fact is we have been rebuilding it. We can't rebuild them forever and taking our corporations out of their now and letting Iraqies get in there will be good for there economy.

I don't agree why we went in there but I do agree about staying there and that taking our corporations out and letting Iraqies take over, and then slowly pulling our army out as Iraq builds more of it's own army and defenses and can handle itself.

yes that's a noble sentiment but it's just not true ...the US went to great pains to convince the world that toppling saddam was a good thing, they're not about to hand it over to a government that doesnt have the US' best interests in mind ..if that were true this entire war is for nothing (in their eyes)


and now a message from Barbara Streisand (no really, give it a read)

 

[Vigilante]

You know what's really stupid? Admitting you're deliberately trolling. Bye.

Pi Mu Rho FTL

Mechagodzilla was doing nothing different than gh0st. Besides, we need somebody to balance the scales.

 

[Top Secret]

Pi Mu Rho FTL

Mechagodzilla was doing nothing different than gh0st. Besides, we need somebody to balance the scales.

I'm gonna agree with that. Besides, without Gh0st, who will I repeadidly own every day?

 

[Vigilante]

I'm gonna agree with that. Besides, without Gh0st, who will I repeadidly own every day?

You took it the wrong way. You lose.

It was rather difficult for anybody to own ghost.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

No it wasn't.

Mecha was warned for his behaviour. Gh0st has already had more warnings than he should be entitled to.

 

[Top Secret]

You took it the wrong way. You lose.

It was rather difficult for anybody to own ghost.

I was making a joke...

 

[Vigilante]

No it wasn't.

Mecha was warned for his behaviour. Gh0st has already had more warnings than he should be entitled to.

I don't see one warning in this thread for Mecha.

 

[CptStern]

warnings are given by PM ..not that I would know, cuz I've never been warned ....no siree

 

[jverne]

oh...how can anyone belive that the us invaded iraq to save it...after what we have seen!?

how can anyone belive that the us is going trough all the trouble for nothing!! they are no ****ing charity!!

after i heared that the first thing that the us did was to secure the oil wells...was all i needed to know! you really need to be stupid to not realize what is going on!!??
after tons of real information stern has shown, some still don't realize what is going on!

WHAT the **** do you guys need to see more...Bush having sex with an oil rig???!!! but i think some would still not belive!

oh...god!

 

[Glirk Dient]

oh...how can anyone belive that the us invaded iraq to save it...after what we have seen!?

how can anyone belive that the us is going trough all the trouble for nothing!! they are no ****ing charity!!

after i heared that the first thing that the us did was to secure the oil wells...was all i needed to know! you really need to be stupid to not realize what is going on!!??
after tons of real information stern has shown, some still don't realize what is going on!

WHAT the **** do you guys need to see more...Bush having sex with an oil rig???!!! but i think some would still not belive!

oh...god!

I still haven't seen any proof that we are stealing all of their oil. Nor have I seen anything to show that the reason we invaded was to blow them up and beat people up. All I have seen is a lot of conspiracy theory and bias that uses a lot of rhetoric to try and draw people in. I am not at all praising Bush or what he has done but IMO people are trying to find and put together pieces together that might mean something. People are simply trying to take stabs at him and blow things out of proportion.

 

[CptStern]

dont make me bust out the links and pwn-inducing quotes

 

[Glirk Dient]

You mean liberal propaganda :O

Haha...only kidding, I am just sick of people on this board only paying attention to one side of things and then going. "OMG I am right and anyone who disagrees is a completel moron and sicko!!". When in fact there are good points to the other side and in fact they can say the same thing. People here are too narrow minded and seem to care more about being right than doing what is right.

 

[CptStern]

there is no "right" when it comes to iraq

 

[Glirk Dient]

there is no "right" when it comes to iraq

IMO getting Sadam out of there and freeing the people was right. Whether it was worth it to ever go in there in the first place is debatable. However Sadam was a nuisance and it is better he is gone.

Iraq isn't the only subject people have simply shut out every other option and called everyone else ignorant and a waste of space...it is pretty common here.

 

[CptStern]

IMO getting Sadam out of there and freeing the people was right. Whether it was worth it to ever go in there in the first place is debatable. However Sadam was a nuisance and it is better he is gone.

so more than 100,000 people losing their lives was worth getting rid of a "nuisance"? it seems to me that the only people who benefitted from saddam being gone is the US ..iraqis are still dying regardless of who's in power

 

[Glirk Dient]

so more than 100,000 people losing their lives was worth getting rid of a "nuisance"? it seems to me that the only people who benefitted from saddam being gone is the US ..iraqis are still dying regardless of who's in power

100,000+ is a guess. No one knows for 100% certainty how many have actually died.

Also to note...Sadam WAS a genocidal maniac, and there is no telling how many would have been killed under him if he was still in power and continued to be. Not to mention his son was even worse. They would have had many many more years of being killed off so even if the numbers are 100,000 that would have been topped by sadam and his son killing people for joy all the while they break U.N. laws. This is very similar to the bombing on Japan. Sure we did kill a lot of people with those bombs, but if we invaded a whole lot more people would have died. In no way if any deaths positive, but minimizing those deaths is always good. In this case what we are doing may perhaps be a lesser evil so secure a brighter future for those people.

 

[CptStern]

100,000+ is a guess. No one knows for 100% certainty how many have actually died.

oh dear god not this argument again ..you just didnt get it last time and I dont think you will this time either ..it was a conservative estimate ..the people doing the ground studies figured it was likely much higher than that

Also to note...Sadam WAS a genocidal maniac, and there is no telling how many would have been killed under him if he was still in power and continued to be. Not to mention his son was even worse. They would have had many many more years of being killed off so even if the numbers are 100,000 that would have been topped by sadam

no, 100,000 is in 2 years ..saddam killed 250,000 in 30 years

and his son killing people for joy all the while they break U.N. laws.

oh that's rich, the US broke evetry UN rule going into iraq

This is very similar to the bombing on Japan. Sure we did kill a lot of people with those bombs, but if we invaded a whole lot more people would have died.

pure drivel ..the powers that be KNEW japan wanted to surrender ..the dropping of the bomb was completely unnecessary

In no way if any deaths positive, but minimizing those deaths is always good. In this case what we are doing may perhaps be a lesser evil so secure a brighter future for those people.

ya I'm sure the hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who were affected by the bombs are greatful

 

[Glirk Dient]

oh dear god not this argument again ..you just didnt get it last time and I dont think you will this time either ..it was a conservative estimate ..the people doing the ground studies figured it was likely much higher than that

Estimate...exactly

no, 100,000 is in 2 years ..saddam killed 250,000 in 30 years

And say if him and then his son were in power another 60 years...500,000 people. Not to mention his son is even crazier than his father.

oh that's rich, the US broke evetry UN rule going into iraq

Yep...and they shouldn't have done that. Bush tried to sell the idea of invasion to the U.N. all wrong. He should have gone about it differently.

pure drivel ..the powers that be KNEW japan wanted to surrender ..the dropping of the bomb was completely unnecessary

They wanted to surrender...but not unconditionally.

ya I'm sure the hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who were affected by the bombs are greatful

Didn't say they would be...better than a country full of dead soldiers and people killing themselves from the fear mongering propaganda about enemy soldiers.

 

[CptStern]

Estimate...exactly

/me slams head against wall

the estimate was easily twice that number ..there's no way it can be less than 100,000 because almost that much died of small arms alone

And say if him and then his son were in power another 60 years...500,000 people. Not to mention his son is even crazier than his father.

you didnt seem to give a shit when he was your ally, when he was committing his worst crimes ...but not that it matters because they'd have to live for 120 years to catch up to the numbers killed by US intervention since 91

Yep...and they shouldn't have done that. Bush tried to sell the idea of invasion to the U.N. all wrong. He should have gone about it differently.

you mean he should have followed the law? ..so if he broke the laws why havent you held him responsible for it? 2100 of your fellow americans are dead because he lied ..what are you going to do about it?

They wanted to surrender...but not unconditionally.

the only sticking point was the emperor and that was only because he was a holy figure ..still points to the US' ruthlessness that even faced with an enemy who's about to surrender they still use the world most lethal weapon

Didn't say they would be...better than a country full of dead soldiers and people killing themselves from the fear mongering propaganda about enemy soldiers.

? what the hell does that mean?

 

[Absinthe]

IMO getting Sadam out of there and freeing the people was right. Whether it was worth it to ever go in there in the first place is debatable. However Sadam was a nuisance and it is better he is gone.

Actually, I need to agree with Stern.

"Right" is pretty much a useless concept in regards to the current situation in Iraq. Sure, you can say that ousting Saddam was a good thing to do, but then you also need to look at what cost it came at: an insurgency, climbing death tolls, abuse scandals, an utterly failed mission to find WMD's, dead US soldiers... You can isolate the capture of Saddam from that and argue for it out of sheer principle. But when you remove that from its context, what use is such a position to take?

 

[Glirk Dient]

you didnt seem to give a shit when he was your ally, when he was committing his worst crimes ...but not that it matters because they'd have to live for 120 years to catch up to the numbers killed by US intervention since 91

No I didn't care at all. Heck I was only 5 so I doubt I had much to do with politics at that age. However...I would never support someone that kills off his own people the way Sadam does ally or not.

you mean he should have followed the law? ..so if he broke the laws why havent you held him responsible for it? 2100 of your fellow americans are dead because he lied ..what are you going to do about it?

I am for the war in order to get sadam out of there. I think Bush did a bad job with getting it started. Whether or not he is prosecuted I leave up to the politicians to deal with.

? what the hell does that mean?

We would have killed the soldiers and because of all the propaganda people were literally throwing themselves, children and babies too, off of cliffs before they would be captured by U.S. troops because they were afraid we were monsters and would kill them anyways. If we invaded Japan it would have been a whole lot worse.

 

[Raeven0]

Do ends justify means? Nah. And it takes a hundred goods to counterbalance a single bad--American politicians have it backwards.

What are we gonna do, well... personally I plan to take over the world, but that won't happen for a while. By the time I'm old and rich enough to get started, it may be destroyed.

 

[ríomhaire]

Sorry to all Americans but your county is run by assholes and your foreign policey is a pile of shit.

 

[Glirk Dient]

so 500k dead people being oppressed is better than 100k dead people and freedom?

 

[Raeven0]

so 500k dead people being oppressed is better than 100k dead people and freedom?

That is a vastly oversimplified argument.

 

[CptStern]

No I didn't care at all. Heck I was only 5 so I doubt I had much to do with politics at that age. However...I would never support someone that kills off his own people the way Sadam does ally or not.

you support bush dont you? he's killed off at least 2100 of your own people ..then there's the despots your country has called friend and ally over the years:

Papa Doc Duvalier, Mohammad Reza, Castelo Branco, General Suharto, Mobutu Sese Seko, Lon Nol, Hugo Banzer, Augusto Pinochet, Jonas Savimbi, Osama Bin Laden, Anastasios Samoza, Alvarez Martinez, Manuel Noriega etc etc

I am for the war in order to get sadam out of there. I think Bush did a bad job with getting it started. Whether or not he is prosecuted I leave up to the politicians to deal with.

for what purprose? you made him, you put him in a position of power you propped him up when yit suited you and turned a blind eye to his butchery. Who gives you the right to go into any country you please and overthrow whomever you please? especially when you backed him in the first place ..this is exactly why 9/11 happened ...and it will GUARENTEE that a thousand more 9/11's happen for generations to come

We would have killed the soldiers and because of all the propaganda people were literally throwing themselves, children and babies too, off of cliffs before they would be captured by U.S. troops because they were afraid we were monsters and would kill them anyways. If we invaded Japan it would have been a whole lot worse.

ya there were lines up of Japanese just waiting to commit seppuku because the slavering hordes of Gaijin's were about to invade their land ...how can you swallow such nonsense?

 

[kaf11]

I'm amazed to still see fellow americans who actually buy into this war with everything we know about it that is wrong.

 

[CptStern]

I'm amazed to still see fellow americans who actually buy into this war with everything we know about it that is wrong.

you being american can you explain why? surely there must be some reason they cant see what everybody else has been saying for years ..it just baffles me to no end

case in point ..the other day while waiting to pay for gas at a gas station a truck driver for Imperial Oil (Esso) came up to the counter and said something to the cashier who then said "Hey Marty how's it going?" which he replied "Oh you know, busy as ever" ..someone in line said jokingly "I bet your busy with the cost of gas these days" ..he smiled and said "ya well if it wasnt for bush and oil we wouldnt be in this mess" (btw I'm paraphrasing I cant remember the exact words)

 

[Absinthe]

That is a vastly oversimplified argument.

'Nuff said.

Nothing to see here except the same ol' BS.

 

[Glirk Dient]

you support bush dont you? he's killed off at least 2100 of your own people ..then there's the despots your country has called friend and ally over the years:

for what purprose? you made him, you put him in a position of power you propped him up when yit suited you and turned a blind eye to his butchery. Who gives you the right to go into any country you please and overthrow whomever you please? especially when you backed him in the first place ..this is exactly why 9/11 happened ...and it will GUARENTEE that a thousand more 9/11's happen for generations to come

Bush sent soldiers over to Iraq to fight for the freedom of the iraqi people. Sadam Gased his own people and laughed about it. Those are not the same.

I am not even sure why you say we will have a thousand more 9/11s. If I recall corectly Clinton had 8 years of peace...no wars declared. Then BAM 9/11. What did peace buy us? Now that we are on our feet and fighting a war on terrorism it has stirred up the hornets nest but also crippled them and may one day finish them off for good. How far did peace get us?

ya there were lines up of Japanese just waiting to commit seppuku because the slavering hordes of Gaijin's were about to invade their land ...how can you swallow such nonsense?

They jumped off cliffs on the previous islands we invaded...but this thread isn't about WWII.

 

[CptStern]

Bush sent soldiers over to Iraq to fight for the freedom of the iraqi people.

nice attempt at rewriting history ...NO, bush sent americans to die for WMD that saddam didnt have ..and bush knew it

Sadam Gased his own people and laughed about it. Those are not the same.

using weapons supplied by the US ..and they knew what he was up to ..in fact the US even helped saddam in the war with iran ..the same war saddam used western chemicals to gas thousands of iranian soldiers and civilians

I am not even sure why you say we will have a thousand more 9/11s. If I recall corectly Clinton had 8 years of peace...no wars declared. Then BAM 9/11. What did peace buy us? Now that we are on our feet and fighting a war on terrorism it has stirred up the hornets nest but also crippled them and may one day finish them off for good. How far did peace get us?

did you flunk out of history or something? you do recall that Clinton bombed the shit out of Bosnia, right? 9/11 was blowback (a CIA term for when their actions cause future retaliations against americans) for bombing of training camps in afghanistan (which incidentily killed many women and children ..probably why so many of osama's are willing to fight to the death), as well as meddling in saudi arabia (holiest of the holy lands to muslims) palestine, iran etc etc etc ..if 9/11 was blowback for something relatively small ..what do you think the blowback for Iraq will be? you people think you're safe and the war is winnable (what a complete utter crock ..ask any european if terrorism is "winnable" by conventional means) but you're not, they're willing to wait ...and when it does happen it'll make 9/11 look like a cake walk

They jumped off cliffs on the previous islands we invaded...but this thread isn't about WWII.

yea, in the millions ...all those floating kimonos and paper parasols floating out to sea .......

 

[Neo_Kuja]

Now that we are on our feet and fighting a war on terrorism it has stirred up the hornets nest but also crippled them and may one day finish them off for good. How far did peace get us?

Captured Osama Bin Laden ? No
Captured/Fractured the Taliban ? No
Addressed what is actually causing the terrorists to take up arms about ? No
Caused enough damage to ensure terrorism will be rampant during this millenium ? Yes
Given the capitalist Oil-Company CEO's their future source of income ? Yes

What happened about capturing Osama Bin Laden, anyway ? It used to be all over the news ... perhaps the U.S Government has bigger fish to fry ...

 

[Absinthe]

Bush sent soldiers over to Iraq to fight for the freedom of the iraqi people.

God, do you wake up each morning and poke your eyes to blind yourself on purpose?

This is the sick and twisted kind of retroactive justification that makes me want to vomit. Ties to Al Qaeda didn't work out! WMDs certainly didn't work out. So we'll say Bush fought for the Iraqi people, who never left the forefront of his mind, sitting high atop the list of priorities, shining above all else.

Then a cow flew over the moon. And anybody who can delude themselves into thinking that terrorism has been crippled or has its fate sealed because of the conflict requires an amount of brainwash that I can't even begin to fathom.

 

[Glirk Dient]

God, do you wake up each morning and poke your eyes to blind yourself on purpose?

This is the sick and twisted kind of retroactive justification that makes me want to vomit. Ties to Al Qaeda didn't work out! WMDs certainly didn't work out. So we'll say Bush fought for the Iraqi people, who never left the forefront of his mind, sitting high atop the list of priorities, shining above all else.

Then a cow flew over the moon. And anybody who can delude themselves into thinking that terrorism has been crippled or has its fate sealed because of the conflict requires an amount of brainwash that I can't even begin to fathom.

No...I never said that is what Bush is doing. I could care less what he is doing these days...he went about Iraq all wrong. For a while before the war started I heard about all the atrocities Sadam commited on his own people and I believed he should be removed so those people can be free and no longer under oppresion of a genocidal dictator. Bush did that...but he went about it all wrong and made the war a lot worse than I could have imagined.

Asking that question Absinthe is the same with me asking if you wake up each morning and take a shit in your own mouth because of all the BS you garble out.

I don't remember me saying anything about Bush is t3h best and everything he says and does is right. I seem to remember me saying how it is good we are freeing the people over there. We did give Sadam weapons but never told him to kill his own people with them. That is like selling a gun to someone then getting arrested because they used it to kill people. You people seem to have your logic a bit messed up. But while were slinging insults...that is probally because you all tend to spend the majority of your days reading conspiracy theories about how bush is hitler reincarnate and is going to take over the world then you let out your anger by throwing darts at a bush poster and say bush sucks because it's the cool thing to do these days.

This is why I hate the politics forum...stern is pretty much the only person I respect in the politics forum. he makes good arguments whereas the rest of you simply throw mud in his wake and don't do anything for yourselves.