UK Elections - Are You Voting Today?

[Eejit]

This was a triumph.

 

[xdrive]

Not really.

Alot of BNP members are decent, honest people and they have been scammed.

 

[Solaris]

Not really.

Alot of BNP members are decent, honest people and they have been scammed.

I knew a woman who was elected to our local councill as a BNP councillor, she then changed to another party saying she'd been conned into what the BNP were all about.

It really seems people can get pulled into the BNP bullshit, however I have no sympathy for them, not an ounce. I hope every supporter gets scammed by Heir Griffin and then he squanders there money on crap.

Seriously, **** the BNP and **** those who vote for them. Don't give me that 'protest vote' bullshit, you're a rascist arsehole and so was that woman gordon brown called a bigot.

Also, any evidence for the above post about the BNP money scam.

 

[xdrive]

I knew a woman who was elected to our local councill as a BNP councillor, she then changed to another party saying she'd been conned into what the BNP were all about.

It really seems people can get pulled into the BNP bullshit, however I have no sympathy for them, not an ounce. I hope every supporter gets scammed by Heir Griffin and then he squanders there money on crap.

Seriously, **** the BNP and **** those who vote for them. Don't give me that 'protest vote' bullshit, you're a rascist arsehole and so was that woman gordon brown called a bigot.

Also, any evidence for the above post about the BNP money scam.

Everyone that has donated to the BNP has been scammed.

It's not everyones fault. Only the higher ups are in on it. Most BNP members join the BNP because they believe in their policies (and the majority are decent, honest people who are tired of the big three parties and all the bullshit they have put into the uk). They don't realize they are actually being scammed.

 

[Solaris]

Do you have any evidence for this? I hope what you're saying is true, but it seems a bit iffy.

And come on, the BNP offer nothing politically for anyone except for those who are sick of 'them immigrants'.

It's white nationalism, disguised in disillusionment.

 

[Eejit]

Only the higher ups are in on it. Most BNP members join the BNP because they believe in their policies (and the majority are decent, honest people who are tired of the big three parties and all the bullshit they have put into the uk). They don't realize they are actually being scammed.

They don't realise because BNP supporters are mentally deficient, xenophobic and racist. Cry some more, bigots.

 

[Solaris]

The more I think about this the more it intrigues me. What an utterly fantastic way to make money.

Set up a political party for a type of politics you utterly despise, then you can scam your member base without guilt and live the high life. Then at the end of it all, publicly reveal what you did and enjoy your hero's welcome back into normal politics.

 

[xdrive]

Do you have any evidence for this? I hope what you're saying is true, but it seems a bit iffy.

And come on, the BNP offer nothing politically for anyone except for those who are sick of 'them immigrants'.

It's white nationalism, disguised in disillusionment.

This message was posted on the BNP website from Simon Bennet, the BNP web manger. 10 minutes after it was put up, it was taken down, along with the BNPs website for 2 days.

Marmite-Gate: The Truth behind the Spin.

This will do doubt come as a shock to many of those that read this, particularly those who really don't want to hear it. However, I have a duty to the members and my conscience, but most of all - to my wife and children to tell the truth behind the spin. The timing of this is also a tragic shame, but I had no say in this matter, its planning, execution or its timing, as you will soon see. So please don't fall for the old "He must be a red,

planted to mess up the election" chestnut. If anyone sabotaged this election, it was Jim Dowson.

Judge that for yourselves by reading on...

This whole thing was a very deliberate copyright infringement designed to create publicity and a fund raising opportunity. What's worse, is that I believe I was deliberately put in the frame and left to carry the responsibility whilst those that were responsible went to ground for four days leaving me to stew in my own fear and uncertainty.

The publicity Nick and Jim were (and still are) hoping for means nothing. What IS important is the NETT BENEFIT of that publicity, and I can show that the nett benefit was next to nothing. The website traffic hardly increased at all, the online donations and membership applications remained almost non-existent and the real broadcast bought no more traffic to the website than the 2009 EU broadcast. In actual fact, the most successful publicity the party

has had in my time was without question - Question Time.

Jim Dowson and Nick Griffin will have you believe that this stunt and the repercussions were all finely tuned, worked out and that everything was all under control. The truth is that they had no idea of the severity of the situation. I was served the injunction as a named defendant and the case against me for copyright infringement appeared cut and dry. If I failed to comply with the injunction I could have faced prison. Even if I complied with the injunction I was facing a massive fine and all the legal costs and associated court fees.

The only legal representation provided to me was from the party's legal advisor on the day she realised things had gone wrong, and she was in a state of panic advising me only to deny everything. Unilever's own lawyers make reference to how panicky and stressed she was. The case against Nick was "as a representative of the party" and Nick often brags that he has no assets in his own name to be sued for. Also, the BNP is an 'Unincorporated Association, so to my knowledge, those facing the financial costs were myself directly and / or the party members.

Furthermore, in the judge's transcript it is stated that the case against me personally is solid as the broadcast was posted under my name.

Nick Griffin and Jim Dowson deliberately set out to pick this fight with Unilever - not me. I advised strongly against it. Nick proceeded to goad Unilever into action when Unilever wanted a quick settlement and seemed happy with an undertaking not to do it again. That wasn't enough for Nick, he wanted a public fight and a media circus (one that I was never given a choice in). I did not want to run the gauntlet of TV cameras and publicity for the sake of my children and wife, but I was never consulted or asked. It was the "Nick Griffin Show" - fighting the evil capitalist empire single handed in order to save the nation on our behalf, and he was not passing up the opportunity of more publicity and victimhood status. He picked this fight, not me, and certainly not Unilever.

The problem is that you will pay for it now, as could I, if not with my liberty, freedom or possible bankruptcy, but now certainly with my position as your webmaster. What a result this fight has achieved! A bloody disaster. But then it had disaster written all over it from the outset, but the £120,000 p.a. 'Industry Expert' knew better.

By now, Unilever's lawyers had their teeth in and they were not going to let go. The excuse Jim Dowson gave for this whole sorry affair was that "a third party joker" had uploaded the video, yet this was clearly contradicted by Nick and Jim Dowson in the evidence Unilever's lawyers had obtained for themselves via conversations from Nick and Jim.

Essentially, I was up the proverbial creek and expected by our Chairman and Jim "The Industry Expert" Dowson to go to court and lie through my teeth in order to bail them out of a ridiculous hole they had dug themselves into. I had warned them not to proceed, but both were insistent that this is a brilliant publicity stunt deliberately designed to create publicity (and ultimately generate funds) as was proven by the immediate fund raising appeal sent out that day. They were under the impression that it would be a breeze and that Unilever's lawyers would issue an injunction and writ for copyright infringement and then immediately back off once Nick threatened to eat a jar of Marmite on live TV. How pathetic and desperate. Perhaps if the whole thing was done legally and executed by real experts and not Laurel and Hardy, it may have worked to our political advantage.

After a weekend of worrying myself sick, with my wife in bits and to use Nick's own words - Unilever's lawyers crawling all over ME like a rash, I took the only sensible and legal option available. To tell the truth. I was not prepared to spend five years in prison for perjury just to protect the financial interests of fools. To be honest, the truth is long overdue anyway as there are a shocking amount of highly questionable shenanigans going on at BNP HQ including threats of violence against good people such as myself and the loss of jobs / contracts /positions if we don't 'Play ball'.

In short, with one of the idiots responsible for this expensive little caper laying low and sunning himself in Spain with the £120,000+ per year he is paid from your donations to pull stunts like this, and with the others laying low, I decided to protect myself and family and not carry the can for their sheer greed and incompetence or rely on their incompetent advice or inabilities, so I told Unilever's lawyers the truth. Lying to the Royal High Courts of Justice was never an option for me.

Jim Dowson constantly makes references to his Loyalist 'connections' and 'Irish murder gangs' in the hope of intimidating people and just about everyone bar me is terrified of him and lives in fear of losing their income if they cross him or do not 'put up and shut up' or turn a blind eye and deaf ear.

Unfortunately for him, I can earn more money outside of the party which renders that particular threat null and void. The physical threats of violence also back-fired on him as I refused to be intimidated, as did the bribes of 'a slice of the pie'. Jim Dowson now controls just about every aspect of the party structure (including the recently acquired print services) and also the party's finances with one exception. You've guessed it - the website!

Jim has been at loggerheads with me for over a year and has tried every trick in the book to gain control of the website so he can bolt it onto his spam-machine without any idea of how websites work. I have always been against it as I feel it should be first and foremost a political tool, not a money making machine.

He has tried undermining it with his call centre staff informing callers not to donate or join online as the website was insecure and that their £100,000 telephone system was the only secure way to join or donate. He tried bribery and Nick also tried to convince me that I'd be better protected legally from copyright infringements if the website was made into a limited company. When presented with the financial implications and costs and also the lack of protection it actually offered and further presented with the idea of not infringing copyrights in the first place, he backed down.

So, here we are today...

A deliberate copyright infringement mysteriously posted IN MY NAME! Wow, isn't that a coincidence? On Tuesday this week (27th) I had Nick on my case again insisting that in order to properly 'protect me' in future he and Jim will set the website up as a limited company after the election and I should remain just a little anonymous monkey in the background doing all the monkey work whilst they take the very noble burden of risk (and potential profit of course). Naturally, after this scare I'm bound to agree, surely?

Just imagine it... All your web donations and membership fees not just now being carved up in commission between Paul Golding, Jim Dowson, Jenny Griffin and possibly several others, all of whom do virtually or absolutely nothing to generate the funds, but now you may well have to pay legal fees, chartered accountancy fees, salaries and possibly vehicle costs, travel, stationery and no-end of other 'legitimate' Ltd. Company's business expenditure!

Here's a better idea. Stop acting like amateurs and stop blatantly breaking the law for financial gain with no political advancement. That way I could continue to develop the website at the minimal fee I charge, and apart from every man and his dog taking a 'slice of the pie', the rest at least goes directly to its intended destination.

Furthermore, the website can be developed freely by a decent, honest and experienced web developer and not under the control and dictatorship of a catering-salesman with as much experience in web development as I have in rocket science!

You're the members and this is YOUR party, YOUR website and I worked for YOU, not Nick, not Jim, not Gerry Gable, not MI5, CI5, MFI or anyone else . Let the smear stories commence. This will probably all be blamed on me being a red, a mole, a spy, a state asset, or work-overload, lack of vitamins, health, state of mind, paranoia, poor diet or just plain old mental instability. Please, let me assure you all that I am none of the above or suffering from any of the above quoted inflictions. If I was it must be highly contagious, as this party has lost so many good people for the above afflictions. Funny that isn't it? It's always everyone else being a mole that's the problem- never Nick's own incompetence!

Jim Dowson has a history of copyright infringement and is not by any means an "industry expert" in any field whatsoever that I can find, as can be seen by googling his name or the Pro Life League or Precious Life UK. His only industry experience is as a 'catering salesman'. Many other marketing and fund-raising business ventures he has been involved in have ended up dissolved without ever filing accounts. With a history like that, it doesn't bode well for the future of the party really. Many of his wild claims of success can be proven as bare faced lies. He has a severe habit of exaggerating figures and then contradicting himself later on. His incompetence is almost as astounding as his arrogance. This I'm afraid to say, is the man in whom our Chairman has invested the future of our party and hopes for our country.

 

[xdrive]

I tried to raise my concerns about Jim Dowson, his past and his continual bad practices and mistakes with the Chairman over a year ago. Myself, Peter Mullins and Mike Howson were subjected to what was a court style hearing in which we were told in no uncertain terms to mind our own business and if anyone picks a fight with Jim they pick a fight with him (Nick Griffin). Unfortunately, the fight was already well under way. Mike Howson, it should be pointed out, has stated since that his "guts turned to water" that day. He has been Jim Dowson's poodle ever since and with the exception of myself, just about anyone who has ever dared to cross swords with Jim have been removed from their positions, sacked or expelled. We cannot afford to lose any more good quality people only to be replaced by buffoons, morons, yes-men or those too afraid to stand up for what is right and proper.

Both Nick and Jim (and a few other gullible fools) will continuously point to the massive success and growth of the party over the "Dowson Era", but you need to look a little closer and analyse this claim or even break it down completely. Firstly, to make such a claim is a complete smack in the face for all the decent and honest activists and members that have worked their fingers to the bone and walked the streets until their feet were blistered. It also suggests that my work over the last two and half years, and our army of blogger's efforts have provided little or no gain.

The simple fact is this; In the current political climate, and with mainstream parties in disarray over immigration, the expenses scandal, global warming scams, economic disaster and a new influx of members from a new and fresh professional website with no-end of social networking you could rightly expect natural rapid growth. The growth to which Jim refers has very little, if anything to do with anything he has implemented whatsoever. All Jim has done is arrive in the right place at the right time and spot an opportunity to fleece money from good people by preying on their hopes and fears. Let's be honest here, a trained monkey could write a more professional fund raising appeal than the current "1980 Readers Digest" style begging letter we currently all have to cringe over and suffer.

Then we need to question where the money raised is being spent or invested. The vast majority of the "Admin Infrastructure" to which Jim claims to have expertly set-up is nothing more than a basic requirement to any business or organisation and one of which almost anyone with half a brain or business experience would recognise and implement easily, cost effectively and securely. The current way in which this infrastructure is organised relies on and is driven by financial gain, greed and a competitive commission based environment. Just the sort of environment I would expect from any sales-based organisation. This party is now being driven by money - not politics or ideology. This is fundamentally wrong and will prove to be our failure. Of course we need funds to survive, but when our motivations, aspirations and hopes are driven by or dictated by finances, then we are on a collision course with failure.

In the "Real World" of business, turnover means nothing, what matters is profit. Profit stems growth, product development, training and staff development. Ten million pounds of turnover is worthless if our expenditure is eleven million, as are all the offices Jim cares to open in order to impress the sheeple. Jim constantly crows about how much money we turn over, yet fails to address the profit margin, where that profit (which does not exist) is spent, and where it is invested. We are told and expected to believe that all the party finances are funnelled through Jim's shady business as no-one will deal with the party. This is a nonsense and nothing more than a smokescreen designed to stop inquisitive people questioning or looking deeper into the whole set-up.

If Nick thinks he has secured any party assets or property that has been purchased and held in the name of Jim Dowson's Adlorries Ltd by appointing his daughter as a director, then I am sorry to point out that he may just have had the wool well and truly pulled over his eyes. Jenny is a director indeed, but has no share capital whatsoever and therefore has no claim to the company's assets, finances or profits.

This party needs a clean-up if it is EVER to be taken seriously as a political force. I've started the ball rolling, it is now in the hands of the good, honest members that have the courage to face up to the facts and reality of what we are faced with. It is also up to the senior members and Advisory Council to stand up and be counted. Failure to face these issues now - and head on, will result in colossal and terminal failure. It is also in the hands of Nick Griffin to do the right thing and allow this party to develop on a solid base built on integrity, skill and transparency.

I think I can assume the Chairman will no longer be requiring my services, so all that is left for me to say is that it has been an absolute honour and a pleasure working with and for the decent and honest members, but an absolute chore, no, nightmare, working with Nick Griffin and Jim Dowson.

Coming Soon on www.SimonBennett.co.uk / Twitter & Facebook:

Jim Dowson and the £10,000 party laptops - you paid for - (£3,499 RRP) - that were also available for free with a mobile phone dongle!
The website donation thermometer appeal for the £22k Truth Truck (book value £8k) that actually raised over £80k.
The website DDoS attack that become 'The World's Biggest Cyber Attack known to the Universe' and which needed more industry experts than NASA to resolve. Funded to the tune of £ thousands by the members. Actual cost: £750 to a 19 year old genius that lives at home with his parents!
Jim Dowson's fixation with and history of infringing copyrights and breaking the data protections act.
The Jim Dowson £21,000 'state of the art' database system paid for by you. Also available from PC World for £156 inc VAT. Superior and FREE database systems were offered by me but were rejected for no logical reasons.
The phone bugging, spyware software, key loggers and paranoia that infects the leadership.
and lots, LOTS more...
Everything I claim in this post can be supported by evidence. I leave you with these tasters to bring you up to speed with Jim "The Industry Expert" Dowson;

From www.123people.co.uk

An Observer investigation today raises serious concerns about the operations of the LifeLeague, the militant anti-abortion group that has hijacked Britain's pro-life debate.
The concerns come as it emerges that a rival pro-life organisation is considering legal action against the group's founder, James Dowson, for alleged breach of copyright.

Dowson, 43, is the public face of the league. He regularly appears on television to pronounce abortion a sin. With his hard-hitting campaigns and highly provocative tactics, such as publishing the home addresses of abortion clinic staff, he ensures the league is often in the headlines. This weekend its members are out in strength, joining other pro-life organisations at demonstrations to mark the 40th anniversary of the Abortion Act.

Little is known about Dowson. It is reported that he lives in Scotland and is a Protestant minister. Neither, it transpires, is strictly true. Dowson has never been ordained as a minister. And although he claims to live in Glasgow, he spends most of his time in Northern Ireland where land registry records show he owns a buy-to-let property in Comber, a small town in County Down. Dowson, his wife, Anne, and their son, James, 20, who bought a title and calls himself the Laird of Glencairn, actually live at another address in County Down, a four-bedroom semi in Ballygowan. Dowson also has a house in Cumbernauld, Glasgow, where he owns a mission hall.

The LifeLeague's website pledges to spend donations 'wisely' but tracing where the money goes is difficult. Documents at Companies House show Dowson originally set up the league as a private company but it remains dormant and has never filed meaningful accounts. Instead it is run as a society, which means it only has to share its accounts with its members. 'We do not publish our accounts as that would play into the hands of the pro-abortionists,' Dowson said.

Nor is it clear where the league is based. Its offices are usually listed at a service address in Piccadilly, London. But the reality is Dowson operates out of an office in east Belfast where he is also involved in a support network for victims of the Troubles.

It has been alleged that Dowson, who has a tattoo bearing the words 'Abronhill Protestant Boys Flute Band', produced music cassettes during the 1990s promoting the loyalist cause. 'I was in a flute band,' said Dowson, a former member of the hardline Protestant group, the Loyal Orange Lodge of Scotland. 'But then so were thousands of other people. My enemies have stretched this to suggest I supported the paramilitaries. It's utter nonsense.'

Dowson has addressed a far-right conference in London and last year he invited Nick Griffin, head of the British National Party, to Belfast. 'We invited all the parties to Belfast to explain their position on abortion,' he said. Dowson denies he is a far-right sympathiser. 'I refuse nobody,' he said. 'I am a Christian Socialist. I find the whole of the right-wing utterly ridiculous.'

Despite the league's claims that it is a large-scale organisation with thousands of members, most of its work is carried out by Dowson, his sister-in-law, Marion, and his wife.

The Society for the Protection of Unborn Children, another pro-life group, is considering legal action against Dowson for allegedly using some of its literature in league campaigns. 'There is a dispute between us relating to intellectual property and it is in the hands of the lawyers,' said John Smeaton, SPUC's director. The Christian Institute also has concerns the LifeLeague has used its literature. Dowson denies the claims.



Daily Telegraph April 2nd 2006:

James Dowson does not concern himself with moral qualms. The consequences of his inflammatory comments, he believes, are not something with which he should be unduly bothered.

His stance, he says, is unequivocal: "I don't suggest - or ever condone - violence. I advocate nothing that is out with the law. I most certainly do not urge people to send abusive letters or emails to these people." (But he's pretty prolific with the abusive emails himself).

The events of the past week, in which Mr Dowson and his UK Life League have been criticised in the media, have buoyed his belief that the end justifies the means. "We have got column inches, our enemies are running scared," he says.

Mr Dowson sees it all as a triumph. He makes no bones about it: the name of the game is publicity. Yes, he happily acknowledges, as a Glasgow Protestant he once belonged to the Orange Order and, yes, he has two convictions (now spent) for breach of the peace.

In the next few weeks, he also hopes to have a fleet of lorries on the road across the country, which he will use to picket abortion clinics. (One of which he "sold" to the BNP.)

Final Message to Nick:

Do not send your 'heavies' or ageing goon-squad to my door (as is standard practice) as I possess no party property or assets, and you know it. If you do, they will be broadcast live on video to several high profile websites. I will post the SQL dump of your website to you, as I am legally obliged to do. I will also release the domain to the TAG of your choice whenever you provide it to me. That is the end of my legal obligation to you as I have always
made clear.

 

[Sulkdodds]

ITT we learn that xdrive keeps up on all the BNP news.

 

[xdrive]

ITT we learn that xdrive keeps up on all the BNP news.

*xdrive keeps up with all political news around the world.

 

[PJ]

Holy shit Brown is resigning...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8672859.stm

 

[-Psy-]

NO WAI.

 

[stemot]

Comes as a bit of a shock. Hopefully that will help towards keeping the Tories out of power.

 

[<RJMC>]

wasnt gordon brown bad?

 

[Tyguy]

ugh, I hate how ignorant I am with regards to these elections. I was under the impression that Brown would simply be replaced in a way similar to how the US works.

Props to the UK'ers for knowing how the US system works.

Can anyone recommend a site which explains the election process for somebody with limited knowledge of UK politics?

 

[Eejit]

Gordon Brown was alright, but unpopular. His response to the financial crisis was quite effective.

 

[PJ]

Comes as a bit of a shock. Hopefully that will help towards keeping the Tories out of power.

This.

Gordon Brown was alright, but unpopular. His response to the financial crisis was quite effective.

I agree. I fear who might replace him to be the possible prime minister...Mandleson *gasp*

Miliband wouldn't be bad I guess.

It was a very dignified resignation, I think. He'll be missed by quite a few people.

 

[Shift]

I seriously think half of you guys don't even know why you hate the tories.

 

[Eejit]

THEY TOOK MY MILK

 

[Dynasty]

I kind of respect him for stepping down. I heard him on the radio say something along the lines of financial future security or whatever, but I was too busy cheering when I heard he was stepping down.

He says that, but he MUST know we dont want him as PM so he's stepped out under pressure and made some political 'excuse' maybe?

Cameron as leader? Hmm, not sure. Dont want Brown, dont really want Cameron, but hey, we'll see.

Is there still no answer?

ugh, I hate how ignorant I am with regards to these elections. I was under the impression that Brown would simply be replaced in a way similar to how the US works.

Props to the UK'ers for knowing how the US system works.

Can anyone recommend a site which explains the election process for somebody with limited knowledge of UK politics?

Basically, you only vote for a representative MP in your area. So for example, in my area, you didnt actually vote for the candidates of Gordon Brown, David Cameron or Nick Clegg that are running for Prime Minister, and their names arent on the voter's paper unless they happen to be the MP for your area (for example Sheffield would have Nick Clegg as a choice to vote for as he is the MP for that area). You vote for someone youve probably never heard of who represents Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, UKBNP etc etc etc. I think there was 6 choices/representatives, of which you could only vote one. Each of those candidate's votes are tallied up, and the winner of that area gets a 'seat' for that area, and each area only gets 1 seat.

To 'rule', you need 325 seats across the UK (I think it was 325), so effectively you need 325 individual areas of Britain to vote 'Labour' if Labour were to have full control. If you fail to get the set number of seats, even by 1, its a hung parliment (I think), because nobody will have the pre-agreed/determined majority.

The problem we are facing is that thousands of people COULDNT vote because the voting booths closed before they could get there. They closed at, what, 10pm after being open since around 8am? So basically, all the idiots with no watches couldnt vote as they cant get organised. ''But I was at work'', well you couldve voted via post weeks ago like the vast majority of people. And its these lack of voters that I think Clegg was arguing couldve made the difference...though Im sure if you see the voting margins, it would make ***k all difference.

But as always, not everyone in the UK CAN even vote, as only about 40 million (I think) are on the electoral roll. If you're name aint on the list, some old guy will tell you that you cant vote.

Saying that, I went to vote after coming back from town as I was passing the place we vote down here, walked in and the guy asked for my voting number, which I didnt have. He said I could go through with a form of ID, so I went in, told the guy my address, pointed out my name as he was old and probably blind, and he just put a line through it, gave me the form and told me what to do. I made my mark, folded it, put it in the box and just left. I mean wtf? I couldve been anybody stealing somebody else's vote.

Still, not as bad as the elections in Sudan. I was there when it all went down, my god, what a mess.

 

[PJ]

To 'rule', you need 325 seats across the UK (I think it was 325), so effectively you need 325 individual areas of Britain to vote 'Labour' if Labour were to have full control. If you fail to get the set number of seats, even by 1, its a hung parliment (I think), because nobody will have the pre-agreed/determined majority

It's 326 seats, and it's not a "pre-agreed" majority - it's simply one more than half the total seats i.e. 650 (650 also being the amount of constituencies) as if you got 325, another party *could* equal you, so it has to be 326.

And yeah it a hung parliament if all parties get under 326 (although it is possible to rule as a minority government with less).

Other than that, your understanding of our bullshit political system is correct!

I don't think PR is perfect either, but maybe a mix of the two would be good i.e. Part constituency part vote proportional.

 

[repiV]

I seriously think half of you guys don't even know why you hate the tories.

There's a reason why people over 30 are a lot more likely to vote Conservative. It ain't because people get stupider as they get older.

I defy anyone to actually read the Conservative manifesto and then criticise it in any serious way with a straight face.

Even if the "fairness" argument were a valid one in favour of left-wing economics (which it isn't, since true fairness is about equality of opportunity and not equality of outcomes), the joke is that the Labour party have not only failed to achieve their stated aims on so-called "fairness", they've actually made the problems worse. Social mobility is down, the wealth gap is up. Their welfare policies have created an underclass and perpetuate poverty, and their education policies prevent bright students from reaching their potential.

People who actually believe in the Labour party are either morons, terminally misguided or utterly uninformed. Either that, or they suck greedily from the teats of cushy public sector employment or benefits and have a vested interest in continuing to bleed the country dry. There is simply no credible argument in favour of them.

As for the Lib Dems? Just the latest fad, as evidenced by the fact that they have the youth vote in swathes but precious little else. Of course they want to reduce the voting age to 16, it would give them an army of dumbshit kids who always vote for them. Given the chance, they'd run the country's finances into the ground just as Labour always do.

And it's always left to the Conservatives to sort out the horrendous damage that Labour cause to the economy, which gets them hated because they have to do the necessary, and Labour get in again. We never actually get the chance to see a right-wing economic policy in action because it takes them a decade to sort out all the shit.

Comes as a bit of a shock. Hopefully that will help towards keeping the Tories out of power.

Yes, because possibly the worst government in British history has done positively fantastic things for us these last 13 years. What planet do some people live on?!

Give the Scottish their independence I say, we may well never have to suffer a Labour government ever again. Cumbria can join Scotland, if you like. England is fairly right-leaning, for the most part, and clearly we are not getting representative government out of this arrangement.

 

[Shyam]

People who actually believe in the Labour party are either morons, terminally misguided or utterly uninformed. Either that, or they suck greedily from the teats of cushy public sector employment or benefits and have a vested interest in continuing to bleed the country dry. There is simply no credible argument in favour of them.

I like the part where you accuse the members of this board of blindly hating on conservatives (which upto a certain extent is true), but then commit the same sin yourself.

 

[repiV]

I like the part where you accuse the members of this board of blindly hating on conservatives (which upto a certain extent is true), but then commit the same sin yourself.

I'm not hating on anyone, I'm simply stating a fact which is corroborated by evidence that is all around us. This country is, in almost every measurable way, a far worse place to live then it was 13 years ago. This isn't some abstract philosophical debate where there is no right or wrong answer, it's simple black and white.

Labour have systematically ****ed this country up from top to bottom, and this time not only have they destroyed the economy, the only net beneficiaries of that are the unproductive sections of society. The rest of us pay for their free ride (whether "working class" or otherwise, sorry class warriors). There is little to no incentive for those at the bottom to aspire to anything greater, because they're better off on benefits - and we have seen a cultural shift which in many sections has made it no longer a point of shame to be a drain on society.

And it gets better still. We are now more watched and observed than any other country in the world, with the possible exception of North Korea, subject to more punitive and unnecessary state control than ever before, and the values, identity and culture of this country have been permanently and irrevocably altered through en-masse unchecked immigration from the third world.

No sane justification for Labour. None. To be informed and still support them must surely be verging on some kind of mental illness.

 

[Shift]

There's a reason why people over 30 are a lot more likely to vote Conservative. It ain't because people get stupider as they get older.

I defy anyone to actually read the Conservative manifesto and then criticise it in any serious way with a straight face.

Even if the "fairness" argument were a valid one in favour of left-wing economics (which it isn't, since true fairness is about equality of opportunity and not equality of outcomes), the joke is that the Labour party have not only failed to achieve their stated aims on so-called "fairness", they've actually made the problems worse. Social mobility is down, the wealth gap is up. Their welfare policies have created an underclass and perpetuate poverty, and their education policies prevent bright students from reaching their potential.

People who actually believe in the Labour party are either morons, terminally misguided or utterly uninformed. Either that, or they suck greedily from the teats of cushy public sector employment or benefits and have a vested interest in continuing to bleed the country dry. There is simply no credible argument in favour of them.

As for the Lib Dems? Just the latest fad, as evidenced by the fact that they have the youth vote in swathes but precious little else. Of course they want to reduce the voting age to 16, it would give them an army of dumbshit kids who always vote for them. Given the chance, they'd run the country's finances into the ground just as Labour always do.

And it's always left to the Conservatives to sort out the horrendous damage that Labour cause to the economy, which gets them hated because they have to do the necessary, and Labour get in again. We never actually get the chance to see a right-wing economic policy in action because it takes them a decade to sort out all the shit.

Yes, because possibly the worst government in British history has done positively fantastic things for us these last 13 years. What planet do some people live on?!

Give the Scottish their independence I say, we may well never have to suffer a Labour government ever again. Cumbria can join Scotland, if you like. England is fairly right-leaning, for the most part, and clearly we are not getting representative government out of this arrangement.

Basically yes to everything. It just really winds me up that so many of my friends say YES KEEP THE TORIES OUT and they just don't have a ****ing clue what they are talking about. Labour have slowly grinded the country into the ground over the process of 13 years, economy is in tatters, unemployment rates through the roof and many leaching off benefits because either a) they can't be bothered to find work or b) there isn't any work, both signs that something is terribly wrong with society. And people want to vote that party back in? Yes, morons I think is the only term that comes to mind on that basis. But true it does seem to be the Scots that keep voting for Labour, as my mum said the only reason Labour got into power in the first place was because Scotland voted for them.

And yeh I am actually glad Clegg didn't get that many votes, shows the country isn't as stupid as I thought it was, just the general youth. He talks about fairness in politics, and we need a change from the old parties, and people who haven't been around long enough automatically think hey here's someone fresh with no government ties behind him talking about change, yeh lets vote for him. When 13 years ago Tony Blair did exactly the same thing. Nick Clegg couldn't fix this country's economy no more than I could fix the engine of a broken fighter jet.

 

[repiV]

Basically yes to everything. It just really winds me up that so many of my friends say YES KEEP THE TORIES OUT and they just don't have a ****ing clue what they are talking about.

Yeah, must be even worse for you, up in ye olde Labour stronghold...

It winds me up too so I don't tend to discuss politics with most people. The way people of our age group think today, you'd be forgiven for thinking we lived in some sort of eco-communist utopia. If it isn't all about the Lib Dems, it's wheeeey Green Party! Great, we have an insane nutjob who compared flying to Spain with stabbing someone in the face for an MP. Fan-bloody-tastic.

Labour have slowly grinded the country into the ground over the process of 13 years, economy is in tatters, unemployment rates through the roof and many leaching off benefits because either a) they can't be bothered to find work or b) there isn't any work, both signs that something is terribly wrong with society. And people want to vote that party back in? Yes, morons I think is the only term that comes to mind on that basis. But true it does seem to be the Scots that keep voting for Labour, as my mum said the only reason Labour got into power in the first place was because Scotland voted for them.

Yep. There is only one Conservative MP in the whole of Scotland! On the other hand, if you take out the North East and major cities (and cities are havens for the desperate...), England is almost entirely Conservative.

And yeh I am actually glad Clegg didn't get that many votes, shows the country isn't as stupid as I thought it was, just the general youth. He talks about fairness in politics, and we need a change from the old parties, and people who haven't been around long enough automatically think hey here's someone fresh with no government ties behind him talking about change, yeh lets vote for him. When 13 years ago Tony Blair did exactly the same thing. Nick Clegg couldn't fix this country's economy no more than I could fix the engine of a broken fighter jet.

I just despise what's happened to my country. In a way, Labour is the symptom, not the cause. Somewhere along the line, British stoicism and determination has given way to "what can I get for free?". Socialism naturally appeals to the generation who know all their rights and none of their responsibilities.

So life dealt you a bad hand. Get out there and ****ing do something about it, not sit there whinging like a pussy and complaining that "it's not fair". It both angers and insults me that I have worked so, so hard for everything I have and I still struggle to get by from month to month living a fairly modest lifestyle (which I wouldn't be if the economy wasn't ****ed and I could actually make some decent bonus, oh and of course if everything I buy wasn't taxed to shit), when the proceeds of my hard work are used to prop up wasters who do nothing, get given everything and somehow manage to have a ton more disposable income than I do. I go back home to visit my dad (social housing estate) and sometimes I wonder what ever the point of my ambition was.

Anyway, there's a reason I chose to live in the one part of the country that still somewhat resembles England before social engineering. People say hello, look out for one another, bend over backwards for a stranger and I don't feel like a foreigner in my own land. There's also a distinct lack of chavs and general social disorder. It does help stave off that voice in my head that says "emigrate". The accents are funny but I can live with that. Oooo arr.

 

[pomegranate]

if you take out the North East and major cities England is almost entirely Conservative

The places where most people live, then.

 

[repiV]

The places where most people live, then.

Not really. Devon has around the same population as Birmingham.

 

[Solaris]

Under labour we've seen massive investments in both the NHS and the education system.

You say social mobility is down, but I don't know, the opportunity for it is certainly there. It's so easy now for even the poorest young people to attend university and escape poverty. Sure, too many people like me just go for the sake of it but a lot of people get a lot of good from it.

I'm a fan of labour becuase it's a movement built out of the unions and the poverty the working class used to suffer at the hands of the rich. Maybe it's partially lost direction these days, but it really is the party that looks after the worst off in our society.

 

[Tyguy]

How does Gordon Brown stepping down help his party in any way? Forgive my ignorance again...

 

[Bob_Marley]

How does Gordon Brown stepping down help his party in any way? Forgive my ignorance again...

He is, to many people, percieved as somewhat of a "lame duck". He is blamed for the financial crisis (to be honest being the chancellor for a decade then going "not my fault" when the economy goes bad probably wasn't his wisest move), he is lacking in charisma (though barely any more than the other candidates for PM or Labour Leader) and he's seen as connected with the "new labour" of Tony Blair - the government that got the UK involved in Iraq, etc. The other parties may not want to be associated with such a legacy.

By stepping down as leader he opens the possibility of a leader with a better image taking the reins and so being able to get a coalition with the other parties, such as the Lib Dems, SNP, that welsh one I don't know how to spell, etc.

 

[Laivasse]

How does Gordon Brown stepping down help his party in any way? Forgive my ignorance again...

The Liberal Democrats are looking to form a coalition government with either the Conservatives or Labour. The LibDems don't want to deal with Gordon Brown, partly because he has in the past opposed reform that they want and partly because he is now a completely busted flush with near zero legitimacy.

His stepping down makes a LibDem-Labour coalition seem more feasible, although they would still need the cooperation of MPs from smaller parties in order to get a majority of seats in parliament. On the flipside, a LibDem-Conservative coalition could form a majority just between themselves, without the need for extra seats.

edit: beaten

 

[Sulkdodds]

Yeah, I think it's partly about PR (both kinds). His action might save his party's chances of a coalition with the Lib Dems by making such a move more acceptable to the public and therefore more attractive to the Libs. They must be extremely wary of forming a coalition government not only made up of 'losers' but propping up the authority of an incumbent who's never been elected in the first place.

 

[Solaris]

Yeah, I think it's partly about PR (both kinds). His action might save his party's chances of a coalition with the Lib Dems by making such a move more acceptable to the public and therefore more attractive to the Libs. They must be extremely wary of forming a coalition government not only made up of 'losers' but propping up the authority of an incumbent who's never been elected in the first place.

And Ed Balls will have more legitimacy? The labour party won 250 seats under Brown, but apparently he's never been elected...

Come on, Labour just can't win here no matter what they do, they did remarkably well in this election all things considered. Brown stepping down is a sad concession to the Blairites and really won't improve the party's image to the public.

 

[repiV]

Under labour we've seen massive investments in both the NHS and the education system.

The NHS is better in some ways, and worse in others. In no way does the current state of it justify the colossal amount of additional money that's been spent under Labour.

Education under Labour is a joke. Basic academic standards have plummeted, teachers have little to no power to control or discipline their students, and they got rid of grammar schools and assisted places! Clearly their ambition is to level the playing field by giving every child an equally shit experience of the education system.

You say social mobility is down, but I don't know, the opportunity for it is certainly there. It's so easy now for even the poorest young people to attend university and escape poverty. Sure, too many people like me just go for the sake of it but a lot of people get a lot of good from it.

It shouldn't be easy for anyone to attend university, it's supposed to be high level education for the academic elite. Now a university education has been completely devalued, and it costs a lot more too as they introduced top-up fees.

Besides which, university is hardly going to help anyone "escape poverty" - if they did shit at school it's already too late for them to make up for it with uni, and if they did well at school then they're obviously bright enough to go out there and make something of their lives. Uni isn't really going to influence that one way or the other.

You know what would be a genuine ladder out of poverty? Grammar schools!

I'm a fan of labour becuase it's a movement built out of the unions and the poverty the working class used to suffer at the hands of the rich. Maybe it's partially lost direction these days, but it really is the party that looks after the worst off in our society.

We don't live in Dickensian times, we have a high-tech service economy and there is no class system anymore. Labour's ideology is at best utterly irrelevant, and at worst downright destructive.

There isn't a "bourgeiouse" keeping the poor man down. If anything, employees exploiting their bosses is a far more common situation - especially with employment law weighted so absurdly in favour of the employee as it currently is.

Given the fact of our high-tech service economy, everyone has opportunities according to their abilities - should they choose to work for it. If you want to help people out, the way to accomplish that is with a buoyant, free-market economy which rewards entrepreneurship and job creation, not through excessive welfare which actually disincentives people from getting out there and working, and excessive taxation and regulation which a) significantly reduces available employment, and the viability of self-employment, and b) makes us all a lot poorer.

Instead of creating a client state of permanently poor, unemployed/underemployed voters in the most economically depressed areas of the country, why aren't we giving massive tax breaks to encourage businesses to start up in economic wastelands like Cumbria, Cornwall and Northumberland, so that there are opportunities in these places?

This is my point about left-wing parties and the youth vote. Your reasoning is all based around idealistic nonsense that is in no way applicable to the real world. I already predicted you would one day have a lightbulb moment and do a 180 over your views on communism. I would also put money on it that you'll be voting Conservative by the time you're 30.

 

[Solaris]

repriV talks some sense and I'm not really sure how to retort.

The ideas you're putting forward do make some sense, but I get the feeling if you had your way we'd have no NHS at all, or even a minimum wage.

 

[repiV]

repriV talks some sense and I'm not really sure how to retort.

The ideas you're putting forward do make some sense, but I get the feeling if you had your way we'd have no NHS at all, or even a minimum wage.

Health is something you don't mess around with, so yes I believe in the NHS - although I would prefer a system of public funding for private treatment, rather than the centrally controlled system we have now.

Minimum wage is a double edged sword. The more it costs to employ someone, the less viable it is to do so. If we had no minimum wage, youth unemployment would be extremely low - a lot of unskilled jobs simply aren't worth £5.80 an hour plus all the other costs, so they find other ways of doing it that don't involve employing someone for the task.

 

[Dynasty]

The NHS is hit and miss. The fact that you can go to an ER and get treated almost immediately and for free is great.

But for god sake, prioritise. If my finger is sliced open and Im bleading out or Im in serious pain with, say, a broken colar bone, get me in first before 70 year-old Mrs Simons who has a slight cough and just wants someone to talk to.

The waiting list is insane. Yes theres alot to deal with, but shift some menial checkups back and get the people in that NEED it.

Back on topic, Im convinced that the majority that voted labour were over 50. Its the only reason I can see that ANYONE would vote for labour; pensions and nostalgia. By securing their next 20 or so years, they've ***ked up the future of the entire country. Arguably.

WHY THE HELL DID ANYONE VOTE FOR LABOUR!?!? Its madening.

 

[Eejit]

I defy anyone to actually read the Conservative manifesto and then criticise it in any serious way with a straight face.

Here's quick critique:

Limit appeals against local planning decisions [i.e. limiting communities' ability to object to planning permission given by corrupt councils]

Raising the inheritance tax threshold to £1m [even if you think it's a good idea this isn't the right time for it]

An annual limit for the number of non-European Union migrants allowed in to live and work in the UK. [the points system introduced a few years ago makes it almost impossible for non-skilled non-EU migrants to work here anyway. Why cap skilled immigration?]

Reduce the number of MPs by 10 per cent. [Money shouldn't be saved at the cost of democratic representation, if you want to lower the cost of parliament then reduce pay instead]

Raise taxes on those drinks linked to antisocial drinking, while abolishing Labour’s new cider tax on ordinary drinkers [contradictory, cider is big for binge drinking teens because it is cheap due to having a tax rate lower than other beverages which Labour finally decided to bring into line. Crass populism]

The Conservatives will keep the first past the post voting system for General Elections [keeping an undemocratic antiquated system unable to properly represent the modern voting public in order to maintain hegemony. Crass self-interest]

How's that for a start?

As for the Lib Dems? Just the latest fad, as evidenced by the fact that they have the youth vote in swathes but precious little else. Of course they want to reduce the voting age to 16, it would give them an army of dumbshit kids who always vote for them. Given the chance, they'd run the country's finances into the ground just as Labour always do.

Yes, a fad which increased it's vote a whole 1% over 5 years ago. Riiiight.
Oh but 'youths' vote for them, they must be crap.

In actual fact most of the Lib Dem leadership were involved in writing the Orange Book and are economically centrist, free market liberals despite what you so blithely assume based on... support from dumbshit kids... How ironic.

Give the Scottish their independence I say, we may well never have to suffer a Labour government ever again. Cumbria can join Scotland, if you like. England is fairly right-leaning, for the most part, and clearly we are not getting representative government out of this arrangement.

So you're advocating gerrymandering in order to try and ensure perpetual right-wing hegemony in little england based on the Tories reaching just under 40% of the vote there in the latest election. Your previous statements about how you care about democracy are looking less credible by the day.

Did you just make a fuss about democracy because you could paint the EU as undemocratic or have you just become more reactionary and more intellectually dishonest and hypocritical as time has passed? I'm no longer sure whether it's even worth engaging you in debate.