US confirms Quran violated

[Korgoth]

I agree, there's a certain example we must set. Right now the detention system we have set up is fundementally flawed (in my view) because, here in America, you are detained after-the-fact of having committed a crime. Here you are not. You have to juggle security with human rights, and the system as it is is a poor at best solution.

However, this doesnt necessarily go against that example. "Accidentally" urinating on a koran is certainly possible - stranger things have happened, I'm sure. If your concern, though, is the system as a whole, this shouldnt be the example you cling to.

I also agree with what you've said, good post gh0st

 

[Foxtrot]

"The Pentagon on Friday released new details about mishandling of the Quran at the Guantanamo Bay prison for terror suspects, confirming that a soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book and that an interrogator stepped on a Quran and was later fired for "a pattern of unacceptable behavior." In other confirmed incidents, water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet; a guard's urine came through an air vent and splashed on a detainee and his Quran; and in a confirmed but ambiguous case a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran"

source


"gulag" seems appropriate

They fired the guy, how the **** is this a gulag? In a gulag they support this kind of behavior, obviously they aren't there.

 

[Kebean PFC]

I too agree the prisoner of war system needs to be redone. However, calling Gitmo a gulag is innapropriate. A gular does reference Russia under Stalin, my bad, but the meaning is still the same. I think the reason people are getting worked up is the choice of words in you post. If you want to debate, fine. But most of us come here fighting.

 

[Feath]

I too agree the prisoner of war system needs to be redone. However, calling Gitmo a gulag is innapropriate. A gular does reference Russia under Stalin, my bad, but the meaning is still the same. I think the reason people are getting worked up is the choice of words in you post. If you want to debate, fine. But most of us come here fighting.

They aren't Prisoners of War.

 

[CptStern]

No. Why should it, praytell?

I guess you condone it then? I guess you have no problem with individuals bringing shame to your profession

You are the one who started this thread expressing your moral outrage at the horrible abuses being perpetrated on Gitmo detainees, with regard to Koran abuses.

? where? I made one statement:

""gulag" seems appropriate"



how is that "expressing my moral outrage"?

Just wondering if that same outrage extends to Christian paraphernalia and symbols. Guess not.

who cares? I couldnt care less if it was the bible the quran or the big book of scientology written by Travolta himself

 

[CptStern]

I don't mind friendly debates. Actually, I quite enjoy them, but the politics forum creates too much bad blood in a place that should be generally light-hearted and fun to visit. I come hear to talk to people with similar tastes about similar things. I don't mind an occasional argument, but all the fighting and the brutality of it, has really irked me. I'm afraid there are people I probably would have gotten along with very well had it not been for the fact that my general impression of them was created by the posts in this forum which, quite frankly, paint a picture that has all of us looking a little ugly at times. I've noticed recently that certain people who I thought must be total assholes are actually pretty nice, and fun to talk with. I then went back, looked around and found that some of my own postings here, when read with a level head, made me look like some asshole fanatic, when in reality I like to think that I don't fall into either category. It sounds conceited, but I never thought I could come off that way. I did though. I would make posts in anger and come across looking stupid or short-sighted and even if I was right in my point the whole fury of the thing would come through in my words and I'd still look like a jerk. It's all too serious for me. I get enough shouting, screaming and fighting at home. I'd just like to have one place I can visit that doesn't have lines drawn in the sand for choosing teams so we know who to throw the stones at.

I think we've all felt this at some point, but this is politics ..the nature of politics dictates that things will get emotional, ugly and more than a little unreasonable. Not to mention that this war is the defining moment of your generation in many ways ...people your age have died for their country, their ideals and their sense of justice....we cant just sweep it under the table as so many have for fear of stirring up something uglier than emotions or lines in the sand: the bare assed ugly side of the truth.


good post btw, I'm glad someone had the balls to say what's truely on his mind

 

[Hapless]

I guess you condone it then? I guess you have no problem with individuals bringing shame to your profession

Condone what? You've lost me here. You were saying something about confirming something that came up a couple weeks ago.

? where? I made one statement:

""gulag" seems appropriate"


how is that "expressing my moral outrage"?

Oh come on. "Cut the crap," as you would say.

who cares? I couldnt care less if it was the bible the quran or the big book of scientology written by Travolta himself

Then why post about it? Obviously you cared enough about it to post. Again, cut the crap.

 

[CptStern]

Condone what? You've lost me here.

whatever it is that you think I was morally outraged over ....:E

Oh come on. "Cut the crap," as you would say.

ok ......still doesnt explain why I would be "morally outraged"

Then why post about it? Obviously you cared enough about it to post. Again, cut the crap.

pretty obvious dont cha think?


whether we put faith in a collection of words or not doesnt make a world of difference to those that would now have further cause to justify their actions ..............you are after all ....the "liberators"

 

[gh0st]

whether we put faith in a collection of words or not doesnt make a world of difference to those that would now have further cause to justify their actions ..............you are after all ....the "liberators"

I agree. It seems some of you are still ignorant of the hate that many muslims (especially hardlining muslims) have for us. There are seemily three reactions to this: 1. bomb them, 2. concede to them, allow their culture to superimpose itself over ours, and 3. make moral concessions for the sake of bettering both of us. Peaceful existence only happens when all sides are willing to cooperate, make concessions, and so on. a lot of you would say "well, they arent willing to work with us, why should we work with them?", and its true a certain extent... but one side has to be willing to change first, and i see no reason for it not to be ours.

this is true only in general, not necessarily with regard to specific laws/procedure at guantanamo or other detainee camps - because honestly, i'm not going to go out and say that some widespread purposeful abuse of the koran is happening there - i just dont care. the point is that things need to change so there isnt even the perception that anything is wrong there, because it definatly doesnt help -- we see the damage from things like this through newsweeks article.

 

[Hapless]

pretty obvious dont cha think?


whether we put faith in a collection of words or not doesnt make a world of difference to those that would now have further cause to justify their actions ..............you are after all ....the "liberators"

Well, shit. I guess we oughtta just give up. The Muslims are pissed at us. We can't have that.

 

[Gray Fox]

They fired the guy, how the **** is this a gulag? In a gulag they support this kind of behavior, obviously they aren't there.

Doesn't the rep have a point.

 

[i z 3 r]

source


"gulag" seems appropriate

OMFG... please tell me your kidding right?

How about you go research what a gulag was/is... You are comparing some urine and a Allah is gay or FCK ALLAH on a religous book to what the russians did? Please. And urine from a air vent. Is that even possible or likely? Use some common sence. and another thing. How are they treating our POWS? their choppig off thier heads and your complain about urine and comparing it the the russian gulag. Please go to the store buy a box of life and try to find a loaf of common sence when your there...

JC! how prude are we today?

EDIT

and this is a bit racist and is going to get all the bleeding heart liberals out there....

I don't mean to offend anyone here. We help israel... Israel wont give the arabs that lil slice of land= pissed off muslims... Whos helping the israelies? USA, hmm knock out the usa= no more israel resistance=our lil piece of land YEY! So if wed stop helping the jews we wouldnt get attacked. And i honestly think 911 wouldn't of happened if we didn;t help israel. I have nothing against jews, but it just seems we get in other fights that arnt ours, millions of our people die, and now we have to finish our offensive on terror which I support. Support the iraq war, support our troops!

 

[15357]

OMFG... please tell me your kidding right?

How about you go research what a gulag was/is... You are comparing some urine and a Allah is gay or FCK ALLAH on a religous book to what the russians did? Please. And urine from a air vent. Is that even possible or likely? Use some common sence. and another thing. How are they treating our POWS? their choppig off thier heads and your complain about urine and comparing it the the russian gulag. Please go to the store buy a box of life and try to find a loaf of common sence when your there...

JC! how prude are we today?

I'm agreeing but i don't want to be flamed......

 

[i z 3 r]

I don't mean to flame, but stupidity really bugs me

 

[15357]

I don't mean to flame, but stupidity really bugs me

no, you did not flame, but you are attracting flame.

 

[i z 3 r]

Sparks are bad... I'll be nicer next time. I seriously don't wanna get banned, thanks for the heads up

 

[15357]

Sparks are bad... I'll be nicer next time. I seriously don't wanna get banned, thanks for the heads up

no, you wont be banned, just flamed by leftys/liberals/whatever you call em,....

 

[i z 3 r]

But I'll shoot em down with my Common Sence Launcher in the Politics MOD of HL2.net forums. They wont get through our fort

 

[KoreBolteR]

its only a book...

if someone burnt another copy of my favourite comic book (calvin and hobbes), i would not care one bit!

cos id still have my copy :E

 

[i z 3 r]

If you look at it that way what if somone pissed on your comic book? Id be pissed, but the guys piss from an airduct... Does not desirve a fireing. Who says the prisioner is entitled to read? heheh When does he earn that right? He chops of civilan and our soilders heads? and he gets better treatment than some homeless on our streets?

 

[KoreBolteR]

If you look at it that way what if somone pissed on your comic book? Id be pissed, but the guys piss from an airduct... Does not desirve a fireing. Who says the prisioner is entitled to read? heheh When does he earn that right? He chops of civilan and our soilders heads? and he gets better treatment than some homeless on our streets?

definately, he threw those luxuries the moment he parcipitated in terrorism.

scum.

 

[15357]

definately, he threw those luxuries the moment he parcipitated in terrorism.

scum.

Yep....

 

[i z 3 r]

hehe yey we all agree! I definately agree with your statement

"definately, he threw those luxuries the moment he parcipitated in terrorism."

 

[jondy]

definately, he threw those luxuries the moment he parcipitated in terrorism.

scum.

A tiny, tiny minority of the 'detainees' have been charged. The rest haven't. They may not be terrorists at all.

 

[i z 3 r]

Maybe they arn't terrorists, but they are suspected, and they are Saddum Loyalists or his military troops. Their the enemy, we've captured them, what are we suspsoted to do throw them a party let them go and then we find out they just carbombed another civilan hotel?

 

[Raziaar]

thats not right too

But the same people in outrage at the quran are not up in arms about the same exact thing happening elsewhere.

There's huge outrage about the quran thing... with the other stuff there's a little pipsqueak voice saying, 'thats not right too'

Note, i'm not meaning you... I just used your post as a point.

 

[i z 3 r]

the urine on the quran and the curse words in the book all arn't right, but theres no need to fire somone and make a big deal aobut gulags and rights of prisoners. as far as im consirned we should treat the pows how they treat ours, give them dirty water, stale food, no showers, and in a few months chop off their heads with a dull rusty blade

 

[diluted]

the urine on the quran and the curse words in the book all arn't right, but theres no need to fire somone and make a big deal aobut gulags and rights of prisoners. as far as im consirned we should treat the pows how they treat ours, give them dirty water, stale food, no showers, and in a few months chop off their heads with a dull rusty blade

You'll probably get your wish one day as the American Taliban (aka the "Republican Party") gains more and more power. An American theocracy with beheadings in the street, thought police, and forced morality isn't that hard to imagine.

 

[Raziaar]

You'll probably get your wish one day as the American Taliban (aka the "Republican Party") gains more and more power. An American theocracy with beheadings in the street, thought police, and forced morality isn't that hard to imagine.

I'll bet you cold hard cash you'll never see something like that. Our society will not revert to 'beheadings' and other barbaric practices of the middle ages. Sure, we'll still have the death penalty, but its hard for me to equate that to the cruel and unusual punishment of cutting a mans head off slowly and painfully.

The funny thing is... people are more disgusted at the thought of 'america' possibly, someday in the near or very distant future doing those horrible things... yet they are pretty unphased at the people doing it nowadays.

There is more public outrage from certain sides over the desecration of a book, than the desecration and murder of a human being... and America is the bad guy? People need to get their priorities straight that a book is not more important than the life of an innocent human being.

ahhh! **** america, killing their rapists and murderers in a humane manner! And **** that guy getting his head chopped off to show a point to the americans! We don't care 'too' much, because its a political statement against the americans!

 

[PickledGecko]

Maybe they arn't terrorists, but they are suspected, and they are Saddum Loyalists or his military troops. Their the enemy, we've captured them, what are we suspsoted to do throw them a party let them go and then we find out they just carbombed another civilan hotel?

Are there any people from Iraq being held in Guantanamo? I thought they were all caught defending Afghanistan. And before you flame, I agreed with the war against Afghanistan, I’m not saying “defending” to mean that I think they were morally right or anything. I’m merely stating a fact; they were defending a country’s sovereignty regardless of where their motives lay.

the urine on the quran and the curse words in the book all arn't right, but theres no need to fire somone and make a big deal aobut gulags and rights of prisoners.

If it’s not right then he should be fired, I cant see how you can have it both ways.

as far as im consirned we should treat the pows how they treat ours, give them dirty water, stale food, no showers, and in a few months chop off their heads with a dull rusty blade

Who are “they”? Afghanis? Iraqis? Muslims?

Well apparently the vast majority of “they” want freedom and justice and stuff. Apparently it’s our duty to send our people in there and get killed so they can have these freedoms handed to them on a ****ing silver platter. Can’t you understand the difference between the terrorist, bad governments, etc and regular people? Because remember, most of these people havn’t even been charged, let along convicted. Or are we supposed to throw away all the things we are fighting to protect in order to protect the things we want to protect?

But the same people in outrage at the quran are not up in arms about the same exact thing happening elsewhere.

There's huge outrage about the quran thing... with the other stuff there's a little pipsqueak voice saying, 'thats not right too'

They are outraged, it’s just that the Koran thing is done by your government, which means its being done in your name. It’s something they can change, by voting or threatening to change their vote, or the vote of others by drawing attention to it.

Terrorism is bad but there is very little point in proclaiming you dislike it, terrorists aren’t going to say, “Oh wait John Smith from Idaho said he didn’t like the way we bombed a bunch of people, maybe we should stop”. But we can stop things like pissing on the Koran, which will probably lead to more attacks. Yes I know it sounds stupid, pissing on a book will make someone violent? I would never feel like that buy you don’t have to feel that way to understand it will happen though.

On a side not, did they ever make it illegal to burn the US flag?

 

[^Ben]

I don't mean to flame, but stupidity really bugs me

AH THE IRONY, IT BURNS!

 

[i z 3 r]

But then again its not right to take out too amny sick days at work... does that mean you get fired as well?

and in responsse to this
"
You'll probably get your wish one day as the American Taliban (aka the "Republican Party") gains more and more power. An American theocracy with beheadings in the street, thought police, and forced morality isn't that hard to imagine."

Theres somthing called civil defence, militia groups the skins? all different gangs? People with massive armorys in their homes... That will NEVER happen

 

[PickledGecko]

I got a "final written warning" (that’s what he called it, I hadn't had any warnings, written or verbal before that day) because I slept in once. A letter was sent to my home from Head Office and everything.

 

[CptStern]

Well, shit. I guess we oughtta just give up. The Muslims are pissed at us. We can't have that.

9/11 is the result of having "Muslims pissed at you" ...stop propping up despots, tyrants and murderers. Stop arming fanatics, stop killing innocent civilians, stop destroying nations for self aggrandisement

 

[Foxtrot]

9/11 is the result of having "Muslims are pissed at you" ...stop propping up despots, tyrants and murderers. Stop arming fanatics, stop killing innocent civilians, stop destroying nations for self aggrandisement

We have destroyed nations for our own personal benefit? When?

 

[CptStern]

google Operation Ajax

 

[jondy]

We have destroyed nations for our own personal benefit? When?

Quick nurse, administer the smackdown! :O





...

 

[Raziaar]

They are outraged, it’s just that the Koran thing is done by your government, which means its being done in your name. It’s something they can change, by voting or threatening to change their vote, or the vote of others by drawing attention to it.

its not something done by the government. Its something some individuals within the government did... And if it 'was' done by the government and government sanctioned, they wouldn't even bother to report that indeed it the quran was violated and moves are being made to correct the situation.

 

[i z 3 r]

Ok lemme ask you this... how many times do redical terrorist muslims burn american flags, burn the cabala, and burn the christan bible? Many many times. God forbid one bible was vandalised! :O !!

 

[jonbob]

For starters, the Quran isn't a bible. Secondly, what is so controversial in this case is the fact that it occured in a prison and was not an instance of someone exercising their right to free speech.