US confirms Quran violated

[Foxtrot]

i really,really doubt that it is an actual quote from qu'ran, i've heard it was a peaceful religion

The actual quote is more like "And thou should slaughter thy non believers"

 

[iyfyoufhl]

The actual quote is more like "And thou should slaughter thy non believers"

maybe it's a quote from some kind of culted book( used by a cult) because, i've heard many muslims talk about how peacful their religion was and i had many good friends who were muslims and they didn't try to slaughter me, i still don't think it's from an actual, traditional book

 

[Foxtrot]

maybe it's a quote from some kind of culted book( used by a cult) because, i've heard many muslims talk about how peacful their religion was and i had many good friends who were muslims and they didn't try to slaughter me, i still don't think it's from an actual, traditional book

It is a quote from the quran, the one the muslims follow. Not all of them follow their religion strictly by that though.

 

[iyfyoufhl]

It is a quote from the quran, the one the muslims follow. Not all of them follow their religion strictly by that though.

ok, what's the number of that quote, i'll look it up

 

[Foxtrot]

ok, what's the number of that quote, i'll look it up

No idea, you could probably try and google it.

 

[Foxtrot]

http://www.islamfortoday.com/adi03.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/jalalabualrubp7.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/PaymanSaqib.htm

 

[iyfyoufhl]

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

?

i didn't find that quote in qur'an, so there goes the validity of this fake shit this guy posts

the actual Qur'an
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

 

[T.H.C.138]

thank the powers that (may) be for me not believing ANY links posted here in politics!!

 

[i z 3 r]

i didn't find that quote in qur'an, so there goes the validity of this fake shit this guy posts

the actual Qur'an
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

www.prophetofdoom.com


translated into english. Its the truth about islam. Our true enemy to Americas Society

 

[Mechagodzilla]

www.prophetofdoom.com


translated into english. Its the truth about islam. Our true enemy to Americas Society

Broken link.

But honestly, everything in Islam has a biblical equivalent. People could demonize christianity based off the site www.jesusistehsuck.com, but you've got to be more mature than that.

 

[^Ben]

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5"

Oh snap.

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

What's that?

 

[Mechagodzilla]

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5"

Oh snap.

QFE. There's a ton such examples.

You're being immature, 1Z3R. I just read your (thankfully closed) thread about how Islam is an enemy to the world. Durr.
I guess all your islamic friends should be imprisonned before they kill you in your sleep!!1

 

[^Ben]

"Numbers 31:31-40 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
A Public Domain Bible KJV at Zondervan Zondervan

31And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34And threescore and one thousand asses,

35And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.

39And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.

40And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons."

What ritual sacrafice?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers 31:31-40&version=9;

I did'nt write this but it sums it up perfectly.

Cliff replies:

This is another classic example of the double-standard which dribbles continually from the camps of the politicized Evangelical Christians. They are quick to point out that Islam's very beginnings appear to have been quite violent; the very Scriptures and traditions of Islam tell us this. However, many modern expressions of mainstream Islam has grown up and learned to reinterpret those passages however they must. They've treated the violent traditions similarly, placing them into a historical contexts: anything but a direct command to each and every Muslim, "the same yesterday, today, and forever" (to borrow a line from the Christian Bible).

Surely many Muslims are only vaguely aware of these Scriptures and Traditions, if at all.

And Christians, likewise, are only vaguely aware of the passage you pulled and any number of other passages listed on our National Bible Week lists and our Big List of Quotations.

But there is is! Plain for all to see, and many others which they can twist and stretch all they want, in context or out, but This, That, and The Other are the words they used and Thus and So is the meaning generally associated with that combination of words.

In other words, even when we compare the percentage to the whole, the Koran contains less violence-laden and barbaric-sounding material than the Holy Bible (New Testament plus Hebrew Scripture).

Ah, but what do modern Christian Bible scholars think of this (those sympathetic to the religion itself, as opposed to the critics)? You and I look askance at this material as well as gratuitously pornographic passages like Exekiel 23, where the racy part is not just a description of what people did but a prophesy from God, cloaked in a blatantly pornographic metaphor! But pastors and bishops and professors of religion at the Christian Universities most likely have a convenient, "cleaned up" interpretation for the violence. If not, they at least have an apologetic explanation!

Not even the most bitterly resentful atheist would tell people that Christians are to follow these examples today, or that these passages represent and teach the core values of the Christian religion as it is expressed in the modern world. Nor would the most affronted among us go around telling people who don't know better (if there be any who have avoided Christian propaganda!) that Christians believe the Earth is flat, in spite of the many Scriptures which suggest otherwise!

We all know better than that!

We're all more humane than that!

(And let us hope that most of us are acting according to what we know!)

And I'll grant that many if not most Christians know that Islam is not the barbaric system of the past any more than Judaism or Christianity are, though there are minority groups of extremists and fundamentalists in each. I'll grant that most Christians know this.

Unfortunately, those individuals who exploit certain groups of Christians for personal gain and political power don't know or care anything about truth or couth or other things that most of us regular folks hold dear. What they say about Islam is no more truthful than what they say about atheism, Mormonism, the Democratic Party, Jesus, or the price of tea in China.

And unfortunately, many "rank-and-file" Christians get caught up in the wiles of their opportunitic leaders.

Perhaps we might do well to point out this one discrepancy in today's atmosphere: The opportunistic political preachers have a double standard when they "prove" to people that Islam is violent by quoting passages from the Koran, but ignore the fact that the same thing can be done for Christianity.

If they want to call Islam a violent religion and base their opinion on passages from the Koran, then they should be thrilled to likewise hear the part in Numbers 31:40 where the ancient Jews (allegedly) killed the men, women, and little boys, but saved the virgins "for yourselves," but not before they allocated the fauna that they stole from the people they killed and set aside a percentage to be sacrificed for "the Lord's tribute."

And since Moses kept 16,000 "persons ... the Lord's tribute was thirty and two persons."

Moses here commits ritual sacrifice of virgin women.

Is this modern Judaism? modern Christianity?

No.

As much of a fixation on death as the Christian religion has, this is not modern Christianity.

But if these opportunists want to call Islam violent, they'll need to get accustomed to hearing about the "thirty and two persons" who were sacrificed as "the Lord's tribute."

 

[MiccyNarc]

If Allah doesn't like it, he can kill those responsible. I couldn't care less.
*flee*

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Yep. So, I'm back. More moderate I hope...

In response to CptStern's first post, I'd like to point out that Gitmo is far from being a GuLAG; and is far from becoming one. Things like urination, spitting, or the smeering of fecal matter on Prisoner's is something that wont be rubbed out for a long time. Its common -- much more common then people assume and its because of the environments that prisons perpetrate that such things occur.

Though I think things like this should be addressed, as I think our soldiers and guardsmen should be carrying higher sets of morals, I also believe its minor with comparison to the other statements of abuse.

Of course, this all depends -- for the most part this is still a scandal, and here's why:

It has been trained into those captured Al-Qaeda combatants, that once interned at a Prisoners of War camp, you cause as much havoc and claim as much abuse as you can work for. Such things invoke rebellion in those sharing your internment, and build a firey response by those at home. In short, it helps to sabotage your enemies war effort, wether or not what you say is true.

The same thing was ordered and even trained into American Officer's during World War II to help sabotage and direct excess enemy resources away from a fighting front. So, its no suprise we see this happening in our own PoW Camps, its a legitimate war tactic.

As a last statement, I personally feel that the Bible, and the Quran, should never invoke such a strategy of rage for its followers if its desecrated, berated, or challenged.
Even though its their culture, and we should respect it, I find the topic challengeable and I find that the lack of human responsibility when riots are incured is sickening and showing a lack of humanity's moral discipline.

 

[CptStern]

godly quotes.

wow ...should I sacrifice my 34 asses to god or is that a stone-able offence? it's just so hard to tell these days what with all the versions of the bible out there ...King James, Revised Standard Version , Bob's Big Bible for Dummies etc

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Truthfully speaking, I find this war over religion and about religion ridiculous.
So some people dont believe as you believe -- or follow the same inmentionable book -- its no call for violence.

 

[bliink]

www.prophetofdoom.com


translated into english. Its the truth about islam. Our true enemy to Americas Society

There is a racism rule here, and your thread on the matter(http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83575), as well as this post means you're banned.
We won't have any kind of that rubbish being perpetuated on this site.

 

[Raziaar]

There is a racism rule here, and your thread on the matter(http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83575), as well as this post means you're banned.
We won't have any kind of that rubbish being perpetuated on this site.

Well I don't think its more racism, as it is prejudice against a certain religion. Though all I really looked at was the fact that the topics were about islam.

I mean, cause if it was just based on the islam stuff, 90% of this board should be banned for their hatred of religion. Hehe.

No, i'm not questioning any decisions made here, just trying to find the racism without digging too deeply(i'm lazy).

 

[bliink]

Well I don't think its more racism, as it is prejudice against a certain religion. Though all I really looked at was the fact that the topics were about islam.

I mean, cause if it was just based on the islam stuff, 90% of this board should be banned for their hatred of religion. Hehe.

No, i'm not questioning any decisions made here, just trying to find the racism without digging too deeply(i'm lazy).

Multiple other mods agreed that the user should have been banned. Religious prejudice is just as bad as racism - I susbstituted the phrase; and forgot the politics section was a semantics-nazi zone.

Regardless, the ban was justified fully. Any similar behaviour will attract zero tolerance.

 

[Raziaar]

Multiple other mods agreed that the user should have been banned. Religious prejudice is just as bad as racism - I susbstituted the phrase; and forgot the politics section was a semantics-nazi zone.

Regardless, the ban was justified fully. Any similar behaviour will attract zero tolerance.

Well if thats the case, I hope to see more heads cracked in regards to christianity bashing. I mean... when its pointless, and argumentative... not when its discussing points. There's alot of that former stuff floating round here.

 

[bliink]

Well if thats the case, I hope to see more heads cracked in regards to christianity bashing. I mean... when its pointless, and argumentative... not when its discussing points. There's alot of that former stuff floating round here.

If you see someone acting similarly, report the post and I shall crack their head for you. :thumbs:

Although, keep in mind, I'm not going to act if its marginal. In this recent case, he was making stuff up/clearly promoting hate of a religion/group.

I'm sure you see the distinction.

Either way, if you arent sure, "REPORT" :cheers:

This section has far too many un-cracked heads wandering about

 

[Raziaar]

I understand... and don't worry. I'm not one of those people who are report happy. lol

 

[CptStern]

Raziaar, maybe you missed it but he was being racist:


"The source to expose the Terrorist Muslim Agenda!
Look at that site now, educate yourself Rise up agaist these animals!"


I'm kinda glad he was banned ...we dont need more trouble makers ...oh and if you can find anyone who compares christians with animals then they deserve to be reported ...but that's not the case here

 

[Raziaar]

Raziaar, maybe you missed it but he was being racist:


"The source to expose the Terrorist Muslim Agenda!
Look at that site now, educate yourself Rise up agaist these animals!"


I'm kinda glad he was banned ...we dont need more trouble makers ...oh and if you can find anyone who compares christians with animals then they deserve to be reported ...but that's not the case here

Well... its still anti-religion, not racism, stern.

Muslim isn't a race, its the followers of the religion of Islam. Yes, its wrong to say such bad things about them... but no, its not racism. Its religion hate-mongering.

 

[Flyingdebris]

i don't give a rats ass about some dumb ass detainies in guantanimo bay. You know why? Because the bastards most likely deserve to be there. Its a jail, not a resort. Unpleasant things are supposed to be common in a jail, thats why its called "jail" and not "happy shiny fun land"

While i do not approve of mistreating prisoners without cause, i'm not about to force arbitrary restrictions on what interrogators can and cannot do to extract information from what very well might be a human monster (within reason)

How are we going to get information out of them, tickle them? sing songs out of tune? please! I'm not saying to pluck out eyeballs or chop off hands, but pissing on a holy text is a far cry from horrendous bodily harm or say, a televised decapitaion

Furthermore Guitmo is probably a restort compared to some other places around the world. Right next door, cuban prisons for people that castro doesn't like. THAT could be compared to a gulag. You don't even need to carbomb a cafe' to get in there, all you have to do is say something "counterrevolutionary" and BAM you wind up in cuban jail for who knows how long, or perhaps a firing squad. There's no need to reiterate the fates of those captured by the AL Queda people.

Bad shit happens all over the world, a whole lot worse that urine on a que-ran and some prisoner getting a few slaps. Genocides in africa, the French military opening fire on peaceful protestors at a demonstration on the ivory coast. Slave trades in cambodia. And worse.

 

[CptStern]

i don't give a rats ass about some dumb ass detainies in guantanimo bay. You know why? Because the bastards most likely deserve to be there. Its a jail, not a resort. Unpleasant things are supposed to be common in a jail, thats why its called "jail" and not "happy shiny fun land"

like a lit cigarette being placed in a prisoners ear? is that acceptable?

While i do not approve of mistreating prisoners without cause, i'm not about to force arbitrary restrictions on what interrogators can and cannot do to extract information from what very well might be a human monster (within reason)

is strangulation acceptable?


is rape acceptable?

How are we going to get information out of them, tickle them? sing songs out of tune? please! I'm not saying to pluck out eyeballs or chop off hands, but pissing on a holy text is a far cry from horrendous bodily harm or say, a televised decapitaion

why are you holding them in the first place ..they havent been charged with anything

There's no need to reiterate the fates of those captured by the AL Queda people.

al qaeda are unlawful combatants (by your definition) they dont have to adhere to international law ..the US does (sometimes)

 

[Flyingdebris]

lit cigarettes, strangulations, and rapes are not acceptable, no. A little roughing up and some psyching out are more of what i had in mind.

As far as not being charged with anything. Unless they were captured on US soil, they are not subject to US law, they are enemy combatants. The reason they are in guantanimo is because they are too dangerous to simply let run back to their cronies and/or they have valuable info.

As far as not having to play by the rules. So you're saying they can do whatever the hell they want without needing to worry about reprecussions simply because they are unlawful? Last i checked, its the responsibility of the lawful to punish the unlawful. The fact that they are still alive enough to feel unpleasant in guantanimo speaks volumes.

If you are willing to detonate a carbomb at a cafe or a voting line or what have you, you deserve far worse than guitmo, as far as i'm concerned

 

[CptStern]

lit cigarettes, strangulations, and rapes are not acceptable, no. A little roughing up and some psyching out are more of what i had in mind.

not acceptable under geneva conventions ..and before you say it doesnt apply: yes it does under the fourth Geneva convention:

"Unlawful combatants may retain rights under the Fourth Geneva Convention in that they must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial"."

As far as not being charged with anything. Unless they were captured on US soil, they are not subject to US law, they are enemy combatants.

again, under the fourth convention they are entitled to a fair trial ...but since the overwhelming majority havent been charged with anything a trial is less likely to happen in most cases

The reason they are in guantanimo is because they are too dangerous to simply let run back to their cronies and/or they have valuable info.

yet many are realsed after serving 2 years without being charged with anything. That justification is too vague and is again against international law. Laws the US agreed to

As far as not having to play by the rules. So you're saying they can do whatever the hell they want without needing to worry about reprecussions simply because they are unlawful?

why would you jump to that conclusion? I'm not justifing their actions. I'm just pointing out an undeniable fact: by the US' definition they are "unlawful combatants" therefore they are not bound by international law ...for all intents and purposes they are individuals like the rest of us, NOT part of an army

Last i checked, its the responsibility of the lawful to punish the unlawful.

the US unlawfully invaded Iraq based on lies ....who will punish you?

The fact that they are still alive enough to feel unpleasant in guantanimo speaks volumes.

and those that are no longer alive?

If you are willing to detonate a carbomb at a cafe or a voting line or what have you, you deserve far worse than guitmo, as far as i'm concerned

there is no evidence that the 540 prisoners that are currently in gitmo are responsible for car bombings ...if there was evidence they would have been charged by now

 

[Flyingdebris]

okay then, what would you do?

 

[CptStern]

okay then, what would you do?

that's not an answer ...you're just re-directing it to me

 

[Flyingdebris]

what i'm saying is that in light of all your criticism, what would you do differently.

I'm personally tired of arguing back and forth cause this argument will go on forever

conservatives-they deserve what they get!
moderates-this situation is a sucky one
Liberals-We are mistreating them!

this will go one back and forth ad nauseum. SO in light of that, if you had the executive power to make a difference, what would you do differently? Seeing as your so full of criticism you must have some sort of better idea on how to run things.

 

[CptStern]

what i'm saying is that in light of all your criticism, what would you do differently.

I'm personally tired of arguing back and forth cause this argument will go on forever

conservatives-they deserve what they get!
moderates-this situation is a sucky one
Liberals-We are mistreating them!

this will go one back and forth ad nauseum. SO in light of that, if you had the executive power to make a difference, what would you do differently? Seeing as your so full of criticism you must have some sort of better idea on how to run things.

well I wouldnt have invaded iraq for starters


knowing what you now know ...what would you do differently?

 

[Flyingdebris]

Surprisingly i don't think i would have done much differently.

Post 911 when saddam was behaving like a little sneak, everyone thought he had WMDs. He was behaving like he had them, he smelled like he had them, and he looked like he had them. It was known that he was into funding terrorist cells. So to avoid recieving something that would make 911 look like a kid kicking a sandcastle by comparison we went in. Then we inadvertently created a dangerous power vaccum. Now terrorist cells are trying to occupy that power vaccum while we are still trying to establish a democratic government to avoid giving guys like al queda a foothold to fight from like afganistan and iran are. This of course has resulted in the huge mess that is today.

HOWEVER, knowing what we know now, that he doesn't seem to have any, had we not gone in, i think the situation would be worse. Saddam would have continued to fund terrorist cells, and without the pressure from the US rooting these guys out. We very well may have had some dirty bomb (or worse) attacks on US soil already.

As for the jails, I would simply make sure that guards undergo a screening process to make sure that only the most professional acting guards are working there. that alone would solve most problems of childish antics.

 

[CptStern]

Surprisingly i don't think i would have done much differently.

Post 911 when saddam was behaving like a little sneak, everyone thought he had WMDs.

because the US made them believe it ...I didnt and so didnt most people who had an even passing interest in middle east politics

He was behaving like he had them, he smelled like he had them, and he looked like he had them.

funny how they werent saying that before 9/11

It was known that he was into funding terrorist cells.

like al qaeda? ..we all know how that panned out

So to avoid recieving something that would make 911 look like a kid kicking a sandcastle by comparison we went in.

pure speculation ..if history is any judge the likelihood of that happening was extremely remote ...he's never attacked before why start now?

Now terrorist cells are trying to occupy that power vaccum while we are still trying to establish a democratic government to avoid giving guys like al queda a foothold to fight from like afganistan and iran are. This of course has resulted in the huge mess that is today.

that pretty much contradicts everything you've done in the past ...it's a nice little story but that's all it is ...not even remotely based on fact

HOWEVER, knowing what we know now, that he doesn't seem to have any, had we not gone in, i think the situation would be worse. Saddam would have continued to fund terrorist cells, and without the pressure from the US rooting these guys out. We very well may have had some dirty bomb (or worse) attacks on US soil already.

pure speculation ...name one instance where saddam carried out an attack on US soil?

As for the jails, I would simply make sure that guards undergo a screening process to make sure that only the most professional acting guards are working there. that alone would solve most problems of childish antics.

you dont seem to understand ..it's directed by the government ..it's NOT a few bad apples ..they are just following orders

 

[Flyingdebris]

because the US made them believe it ...I didnt and so didnt most people who had an even passing interest in middle east politics

No, more like because Saddam had been known to produce and use chemical weapons not that long ago. Normally it would be common sense that if he had produced them, that he should have them. And if he's not letting inspectors in, then he is obviously hiding them.

funny how they werent saying that before 9/11

Because before 911, we didn't really give a rats ass about terrorism because it didn't seem to affect us much. Furthermore cuts in CIA funding had left most of america's gov deaf and blind as to what was a threat prior to 911 because we didn't think anyone would have the balls to attack us.

like al qaeda? ..we all know how that panned out

it hasn't quite panned out yet, we are still fighting them to the best of my knowledge

pure speculation ..if history is any judge the likelihood of that happening was extremely remote ...he's never attacked before why start now?

I'm not saying he would have attacked us, I'm saying that he would have continued to fund and supply those who would attack us. And without us breathing down their necks their attacks would probably have been worse

that pretty much contradicts everything you've done in the past ...it's a nice little story but that's all it is ...not even remotely based on fact

so what exactly are your facts then

pure speculation ...name one instance where saddam carried out an attack on US soil?

like I previously mentioned, he funded and supplied, he wouldn'tdo the attacks himself

you dont seem to understand ..it's directed by the government ..it's NOT a few bad apples ..they are just following orders

then those orders need to change, however I still have no sympathy for those that end up in there. Nor do i think interrogators should have to put on the kid gloves and be PC when it comes to interrogating

 

[CptStern]

No, more like because Saddam had been known to produce and use chemical weapons not that long ago. Normally it would be common sense that if he had produced them, that he should have them. And if he's not letting inspectors in, then he is obviously hiding them.

no:


"The Duelfer report found that Iraq’s chemical and biological weapons were destroyed in 1991 and never reconstituted"

source

Because before 911, we didn't really give a rats ass about terrorism because it didn't seem to affect us much. Furthermore cuts in CIA funding had left most of america's gov deaf and blind as to what was a threat prior to 911 because we didn't think anyone would have the balls to attack us.

no, revisionist lies:



Clarke then tells Stahl of being pressured by Mr. Bush.

"The president dragged me into a room with a couple of other people, shut the door, and said, 'I want you to find whether Iraq did this.' Now he never said, 'Make it up.' But the entire conversation left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said Iraq did this.

"I said, 'Mr. President. We've done this before. We have been looking at this. We looked at it with an open mind. There's no connection.'

"He came back at me and said, "Iraq! Saddam! Find out if there's a connection.' And in a very intimidating way. I mean that we should come back with that answer. We wrote a report."

Clarke continued, "It was a serious look. We got together all the FBI experts, all the CIA experts. We wrote the report. We sent the report out to CIA and found FBI and said, 'Will you sign this report?' They all cleared the report. And we sent it up to the president and it got bounced by the National Security Advisor or Deputy. It got bounced and sent back saying, 'Wrong answer. ... Do it again.' "


source

it hasn't quite panned out yet, we are still fighting them to the best of my knowledge

there was never a link between saddam and osama

al qaeda doesnt exist ...not as a unified force ...the war in iraq pretty much opened the door to every whacko in the region who could at any time call themselves al qaeda ...here read this ...unforetunately I cant find the video ..very compelling stuff


here it is

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/121104powerofnightmares.htm

you need realplayer to view it

I'm not saying he would have attacked us, I'm saying that he would have continued to fund and supply those who would attack us.

no, name one group that attacked the US who received funding from saddam ...saddam was a braggart and ego-maniac ..he made a big deal of making it public that he would give the families of successful palestinian suicide bombers money ...but then again the US has done the same thing ...google Orlando Bosch, Pedro Rémon, Gaspar Jiménez, Guillermo Novo, Louis Posada Carriles etc

And without us breathing down their necks their attacks would probably have been worse

no, because of your efforts the attacks are guaranteed to happen for generations to come ...you've created one massive terrorist training camp in iraq ...which pretty much all of them gunning for US targets

so what exactly are your facts then

here, start with this

like I previously mentioned, he funded and supplied, he wouldn'tdo the attacks himself

not against american targets

then those orders need to change, however I still have no sympathy for those that end up in there. Nor do i think interrogators should have to put on the kid gloves and be PC when it comes to interrogating

well obviously if people are being beaten to death then it stands to reason the kid gloves have been off since the very beginning

 

[Flyingdebris]

fine, whatever, i conceed, you win this argument on the internet for all that thats worth.

i don't have the time nor inclination to continue single handedly an argument with someone with the forum stamina to argue against an entire forum

 

[CptStern]

nice way of avoiding the tough issues ...I'm not here to "win" but rather to wipe out bullshit ..and no I dont have the stamina ...although the truth does spur me on

 

[iyfyoufhl]

nice way of avoiding the tough issues ...I'm not here to "win" but rather to wipe out bullshit ..and no I dont have the stamina ...although the truth does spur me on

just what i said, "Fight the Bullshit!" go Captan