US gunship kills civilians/reuters journalists, then fires upon makeshift ambulance

[No Limit]

You didn't get my point at all, I guess. ****ing douche.

I got your point, let me know if I missed it in anyway. Your point was that there is nothing unusual about shooting up a makeshift ambulance and killing innocent people that were there just trying to help the wounded. And the soldiers that fired on them nor the commanders that approved the order share any blame.

Like I said, you're an idiot.

 

[Escaep]

Like I said, you're an idiot.

I don't think he's the idiot here.

 

[No Limit]

I don't think he's the idiot here.

He is trying to dismiss the shooting of unarmed civilians who were helping the wounded by essentially saying shit happens, nothing unusual. He is also saying that the people that pulled the trigger are in no way to blame. The fact that he will not change his position on this matter given the facts or even discuss it honestly makes him an idiot. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I won't be. He ignores everything that has been already said and posts back the same old apologist bullshit.

 

[No Limit]

You know, we hear about all these catholic priests molesting little children. But I mean, what do we expect to happen? We told all these men they can never have sex or any kind of relations with women. Then we put them in close contact with vulnerable little children. The New York times hasn't uncovered any kind of scandal, they simply let the masses in on what the catholic church is really like. Most people are misdirecting their anger over this: it's not the fault of the priests, or the ones in command that covered for them.

Now that sounds pretty idiotic to me, yet it's the same logic. They might have no molested any kids, but they did kill innocent people unprovoked which is pretty bad too.

 

[lame-o]

It's a tragedy that's all too common in any war. I'm not saying "oh who cares" I'm saying this shouldn't be unexpected. This shit happens, either due to miscommunication, misinterpretation, or trigger happiness. I do think the soldiers are to blame for this specific incident, though what does it matter if I do? Somebody else will take their place and maybe **** something else up.

The blame should be on the war itself. Not the people who do it (and those soldiers didn't really break any rules, considering there really are none). Especially because it could be any one of us out there.

 

[No Limit]

How do you keep repeating that? Those soldiers are the ones that pulled the trigger. Those soldiers are the ones that lied to their commanding officers about what they saw right before they fired on the van.

So unless you thinking shooting that van was justified you need to explain why they don't have any blame for what they did. And if you agree that you think they were simply trigger happy and think that that's ok then there is something seriously wrong with you. We are talking about 3 innocent people getting killed and 2 children being badly injured. The fact they didn't know those children were in there is irrelevent, they were hell bent on killing 2 people that came to help the wounded and injured those children in that process.

 

[lame-o]

If you didn't think innocent people were going to die then you have no idea what war is and you shouldn't have any say in things of that sort. Again I say to you, do you really think that's the worst thing to happen in Iraq over the years? The initial attack in 2003 killed thousands of innocent people yet you don't bitch about that. There are only two types of casualties in a war, people who are there to fight it and people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I don't think it's okay, I think we shouldn't be in a war right now. That's why I'm saying this situation shows a lot of people the negative effect that war has and that we should be promoting pacifism instead of it, not pointing fingers - which is stupid and immature.

 

[No Limit]

Like I said, you're an idiot.

Who wants to grab a gun and head down to Iraq to shoot us some innocent women and children? We already killed a bunch of them so killing more for no reason at all is perfectly ok. Let's go gang.

 

[lord_raken]

Like I said, you're an idiot.

Who wants to grab a gun and head down to Iraq to shoot us some innocent women and children? We already killed a bunch of them so killing more for no reason at all is perfectly ok. Let's go gang.

You are intentionally misunderstanding what he is saying.

This should be investigated and if there was any blatant and wiling disregard for the rules then actions should be taken.

But this IS WAR. War if F**ked up and this shit happens. Does that make it ok? HELL NO! But if you think you can wage a war without civilian casualties or without messed up situations like this, then you are the worst kind of idiot.

 

[No Limit]

You are intentionally misunderstanding what he is saying.

No, Im not. But you seem to be.

This should be investigated and if there was any blatant and wiling disregard for the rules then actions should be taken.

He is saying the people that fired the shots share no blame. Therefore you can have an investigation if you want but it can't put any blame on the people that fired those shots.

But this IS WAR. War if F**ked up and this shit happens. Does that make it ok? HELL NO! But if you think you can wage a war without civilian casualties or without messed up situations like this, then you are the worst kind of idiot.

No shit sherlock. That's not his point.

 

[lame-o]

No shit sherlock. That's not his point.

Actually, yeah that's pretty much my point.

 

[No Limit]

Actually, yeah that's pretty much my point.

So you now think that the pilots and their commanding officers share blame for killing innocent people that were there to help the wounded?

 

[Tyguy]

We get the fact that tragedy occurs during war. It's painfully obvious that there were far more horrible acts committed in the past involving the death of innocent civilians. That's not the point. The issue in question relates solely on this isolated incident, not on the two nukes we dropped on Japan or anything else relating to it.

We have a video supplemented with audio, undeniable facts, and a big rule book of "THIS IS RIGHT, THIS IS WRONG". You can't dismiss No Limit's claims by citing atrocities which happened outside of this video and subsequently assuage the animosity it has caused because far worse have happened.

If "War is ****ed up" was an acceptable notion for war crimes than your point stands lame-o...but that isn't the case! I won't repeat what happened in the video because it's tired but we have rules for a reason. Those rules were bent, broken, and ignored. Plain and simple.

I also won't pretend to make sound decisions vicariously through these pilots. They are trained to kill...we get that. We understand they are putting their lives at risk everyday and have to make decisions that most people couldn't imagine having to make. Still, this does not excuse what happened.

Now, please craft a logical argument opposing that and we might make some headway.

 

[No Limit]

Now, please craft a logical argument opposing that and we might make some headway.

Obviously you tried very hard, I appreciate the effort. If you get a logical argument from him I will apologize for calling him an idiot. Good luck.

 

[lame-o]

Obviously you tried very hard, I appreciate the effort. If you get a logical argument from him I will apologize for calling him an idiot. Good luck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PTF8syW9Kc

 

[No Limit]

lol...I hate to say told your so, but...

 

[Noodle]

 

[lame-o]

We get the fact that tragedy occurs during war. It's painfully obvious that there were far more horrible acts committed in the past involving the death of innocent civilians. That's not the point. The issue in question relates solely on this isolated incident, not on the two nukes we dropped on Japan or anything else relating to it.

We have a video supplemented with audio, undeniable facts, and a big rule book of "THIS IS RIGHT, THIS IS WRONG". You can't dismiss No Limit's claims by citing atrocities which happened outside of this video and subsequently assuage the animosity it has caused because far worse have happened.

If "War is ****ed up" was an acceptable notion for war crimes than your point stands lame-o...but that isn't the case! I won't repeat what happened in the video because it's tired but we have rules for a reason. Those rules were bent, broken, and ignored. Plain and simple.

I also won't pretend to make sound decisions vicariously through these pilots. They are trained to kill...we get that. We understand they are putting their lives at risk everyday and have to make decisions that most people couldn't imagine having to make. Still, this does not excuse what happened.

Now, please craft a logical argument opposing that and we might make some headway.

Okay, I agree with you first of all. They should be held accountable for their actions, but I'm talking about the grand scheme of it all. These kinds of incidents should be minimized, though they will happen one way or another, and the whole country should not be going bat-shit insane as though they expect war to always be clean and pretty.

If everyone thinks that there's always a good side versus an evil side, and that the good side is incapable of the same atrocities that the evil side is capable of, then everyone will simply blame the individuals who break that "rule" and not do anything about the war itself. People will continue supporting wars thinking that these are isolated incidents created by maniacs, and that they don't shed light on the true nature of war.

Is it right to support a war, but when something ugly happens that sees the light of day, you just direct all of your frustrations at that one ugly situation and continue supporting the war despite the fact that war causes the ugly situations, and despite the fact that there are so many ugly situations you could not possibly catch them all? I don't think that's right at all.

 

[swan_song1973]

its good to know the us military isnt wasting their time over there anymore and is killing innocents now. makes me feel like my tax dollars are finally going somewhere.

 

[Krynn72]

I don't think its right to chock up all these "ugly situations" as "shit-happens" accidental casualties. I think soldiers should be held accountable for the actions, accidental or otherwise. In this case, they have clearly acted in a poor manner and deserve an appropriate punishment. The fact that their actions take place during a war effort does not relinquish them of all accountability. Ergo, when they are let go with no punishment whatsoever, the public should be outraged.

 

[Tyguy]

but I'm talking about the grand scheme of it all. These kinds of incidents should be minimized, though they will happen one way or another, and the whole country should not be going bat-shit insane as though they expect war to always be clean and pretty.

You can't be on both sides of the court. Admitting it was wrong then excusing what happed under the guise of "War is Hell" isn't a tangible argument.

People will continue supporting wars thinking that these are isolated incidents created by maniacs, and that they don't shed light on the true nature of war.

Your notion regarding the nature of war doesn't seem to be accompanied by any set of regulation. You'd rather the public ignore these types of events due to some patriotic duty each person owes their country; as if scrutinizing such things is taboo and bad for morale.

Is it right to support a war, but when something ugly happens that sees the light of day, you just direct all of your frustrations at that one ugly situation and continue supporting the war despite the fact that war causes the ugly situations, and despite the fact that there are so many ugly situations you could not possibly catch them all? I don't think that's right at all.

You said yourself that atrocities occur during war. If you label them wrong you lose all credibility when trying to obfuscate the impact they have. You can support a war and still be angry when innocent people are murdered. For example, I support one's right to hold a noose around their neck while they masturbate despite knowing that a significant number of them end up dying. A for effort.

 

[Dynasty]

Aha, for some reason I can see Tyguy being great at CSI.

Investigating a murder scene, judging it, and then stamping 'A for effort' somewhere.

We can and cant argue individual incidents against the grand scheme of things. Its for that reason, the fact that this is seen as a 'single incident', that they will get away with it. This only perpetuates the cycle, and more incidents will happen. And they DO happen.

Every incident should be shut down with an unforgettable force. ***k the human rights, these guys need to go down for what they did.

 

[StarBob]

Aha, for some reason I can see Tyguy being great at CSI.

Investigating a murder scene, judging it, and then stamping 'A for effort' somewhere.

Tyguy -

It looks like these photographers...

...didn't make the cover.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH







*puff of smoke ninja style*

 

[Sparta]

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04/2007-iraq-apache-attack-as-seen-from-the-ground

An interview with the soldier seen carrying the kids out of the van in the video. I'm rushing this post before I run out the door but here is an important part of it.

Wired.com: Wikileaks presented the incident as though there was no engagement from insurgents. But you guys did have a firefight a couple of blocks away. Was it reasonable for the Apache soldiers to think that maybe the people they attacked were part of that insurgent firefight?

McCord: I doubt that they were a part of that firefight. However, when I did come up on the scene, there was an RPG as well as AK-47s there…. You just don’t walk around with an RPG in Iraq, especially three blocks away from a firefight…. Personally, I believe the first attack on the group standing by the wall was appropriate, was warranted by the rules of engagement. They did have weapons there. However, I don’t feel that the attack on the [rescue] van was necessary.

Now, as far as rules of engagement, [Iraqis] are not supposed to pick up the wounded. But they could have been easily deterred from doing what they were doing by just firing simply a few warning shots in the direction…. Instead, the Apaches decided to completely obliterate everybody in the van. That’s the hard part to swallow.

And where the soldier said [in the video], “Well, you shouldn’t take your kids to battle.” Well in all actuality, we brought the battle to your kids. There’s no front lines here. This is urban combat and we’re taking the war to children and women and innocents.

There were plenty of times in the past where other insurgents would come by and pick up the bodies, and then we’d have no evidence or anything to what happened, so in looking at it from the Apache’s point of view, they were thinking that [someone was] picking up the weapons and bodies; when, in hindsight, clearly they were picking up the wounded man. But you’re not supposed to do that in Iraq.

Read More http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/201...-attack-as-seen-from-the-ground#ixzz0lisiup5R

 

[unozero]

I ****ing knew it.
but yeah still sucks that innocent people had to die.

 

[nurizeko]

clearly they were picking up the wounded man. But you’re not supposed to do that in Iraq.

Uhuh....so when did the US army become the judge on what other people do for others?

In the UK the police are supposed to protect you but that wouldn't stop me chasing off a burglar or someone assaulting someone else. If I'm driving by and I see wounded people by a roadside I'm going to stop and help them, at least call an ambulance, you don't get to say "Oh yeah but he wasn't meant to do that we've decided he wasn't allowed" and suddenly makes murder alright.

I think the mruder of the first group wasn't justified either but whatever.

How very arrogant to say that...


It's a shame it has took this long for this sorta stuff to cause some genuine introspection on the part of many Americans and other Westerners regarding our wasteful wars.

Suffering happens but when it is needless it's stain on our humanity goes so deep it is not surprising that men like that McCord fella goes home with PTSD and feels compelled to speak out.

It's quite disgusting that from my grandpa's generation of giving their lives to defeat the likes of Hitler we've come to a situation where casual murder of brown people is okay and all that veterans get now is allot of guilt and hefty emotional baggage and being turned into nothing more than hated murderers of innocents just to suit some pointless futile whims of petty small men in power who don't deserve the privilege of leadership.