Valve taking legal action against cheating?

[CoreyGH]

According to this post by Gabe over at HL2Fallout, Valve will start taking legal action against cheat sites and cheat creators. We all know cheating sucks, but is it actually illegal?

 

[Absinthe]

I don't like cheating, but there really isn't a whole lot that Valve can do about it. There's nothing in the EULA agreement that prohibits cheating, because it's acceptable for such modifications to exist on the user's computer.

The only real shot Valve has against cheaters is if they claimed that it was hurting their profits. That's probably what they're doing.

 

[Chris D]

I think it breaks the EULA or something.

 

[Dedatorv]

According to this post by Gabe over at HL2Fallout, Valve will start taking legal action against cheat sites and cheat creators. We all know cheating sucks, but is it actually illegal?

Well you sign a contract with VALVe whenever you install the game so somewhere in there it probably does say something about legal actions against cheating.

 

[CoreyGH]

Dedatorv, there is a LARGE difference between a EULA and a contract. We don't sign a contract with Valve when we install the game.

 

[Dedatorv]

Dedatorv, there is a LARGE difference between a EULA and a contract. We don't sign a contract with Valve when we install the game.

EULA, contract, same thing. Couldn't think of the name for it so I just used contract.

 

[CoreyGH]

I think it breaks the EULA or something.

Granted, but does that allow for legal action? Ban them from Valve's servers, yes; disable their CDkeys, of course. But forcing someone to take down their website? Where is the basis for this?

 

[CoreyGH]

EULA, contract, same thing. Couldn't think of the name for it so I just used contract.

No no no, a EULA (End User License Agreement) is a very different thing, from a legal standpoint, than a contract. Contract law is a well defined portion of our legal system. EULA's are relatively new and are, in no way, as legaly binding as an honest to goodness contract.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Like i said in offtopic, the time and money Valve put into developing anti-cheat technology directly affects their business. Cheaters cost Valve money. Cheat sites are the source of this wrongdoing and should be sued for the millions of dollars they've already cost Valve.

That'll be one of the points they argue in court.

 

[Brian Damage]

Depriving other human beings of fun that is rightfully theirs could come into it...

 

[Dougy]

All cheaters should be gagged and gang raped by.... horses.

yep....

or just take their PC's off them and then give them to other people with worse PC's.

 

[Dougy]

Depriving other human beings of fun that is rightfully theirs could come into it...

Ahh but at no point does Valve garuantee that you will have fun, so there for you cannot claim for something that is not promised.

 

[CoreyGH]

Like i said in offtopic, the time and money Valve put into developing anti-cheat technology directly affects their business. Cheaters cost Valve money. Cheat sites are the source of this wrongdoing and should be sued for the millions of dollars they've already cost Valve.

That'll be one of the points they argue in court.

That would be hard to argue since the act of creating and distributing cheats is not illegal. With your reasoning, one could easily agrue that Id is costing Valve money by creating and distributing Doom 3 because some people will buy Doom instead of Half Life.

There are differences between "wrong" and "illegal".

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Must kill cheaters...... MUST KILL CHEATERS!!



Hate cheaters with a great pasion here. Great to hear that they are being taken out.

 

[Andy018]

its modifying code that was not intended to be modified. basically its like cracking software to by pass CD protection. alright its helpful to not have to find a CD every time you want to play a game but its still technically not legal.

 

[CoreyGH]

Must kill cheaters...... MUST KILL CHEATERS!!
Hate cheaters with a great pasion here. Great to hear that they are being taken out.

We all hate cheaters, but they have the same legal rights as everyone else.

 

[PunisherUSA]

I don't think valve can or should take legal action against cheaters. Saying they hurt profits will be a hard case to win.

What they could do is simply confiscate/disable the said cheater's HL. They are completely allowe to do such a thing as stated in the EULA if I'm not mistaken.

 

[The Monkey]

It is not illegal to cheat, so I'm afraid Valve can't do anything.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Common sense will obviously prevail. The defendant could not seriously argue that competition also costs Valve money so therefore cheat creators and cheat sites should be innocent. I still believe my point is very valid and will help Valves case.

No, it's not illegal to create cheats. But this could be a landmark case that will be the catalyst for laws to be created for online games. Someone has to set a precedent and i think this case could do it by paving the way for other game companies to be able to successfully sue cheat creators and sites that harbour cheats.

 

[CoreyGH]

Common sense will obviously prevail. The defendant could not seriously argue that competition also costs Valve money so therefore cheat creators and cheat sites should be innocent. I still believe my point is very valid and will help Valves case.

No, it's not illegal to create cheats. But this could be a landmark case that will be the catalyst for laws to be created for online games. Someone has to set a precedent and i think this case could do it by paving the way for other game companies to be able to successfully sue cheat creators and sites that harbour cheats.

But you can't have a "landmark case" with out first having a law that the case is testing. As is currently stands, cheating isn't illegal. Someone would have to pass some "Anti Online Game Cheating" legislation which would then have to be tested in court.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Damn, this reminds me of that Bali terrorist bomber who can't be tried for terrorism because the law wasn't passed when he was arrested.

Lesson to be learnt, Justice should be a priority

Couldn't this Valve situation raise the issue in the senate eventually causing a law(s) to be created? I thought cases like this prompts the senate to debate/create new laws. That seems like the logical way to do it.

Then once it's created, Valve can go back and sue them again. Maybe that's their plan, get cheating recognized so laws are created and other game companies can legally defend themselves against cheat sites/creators.

 

[CoreyGH]

Perhaps, but valve would have to sue someone else. You can't sue someone twice for the same thing.

 

[Id Crisis]

Technically cheating is not illegal, I suppose. I'm not a law expert, as most of you guys. But in my understanding, if Valve state in EULA (if it can be added), that they reserve the right to stop cheat creation for this product, say they do not allow the code to be modified in a way that gives the creator/user a unfair advantage, then they would be able to take the abuser to a civil court. Basically what I'm saying is that valve can make any kind of rule/contract about their product, such as no code modification, creating an unfair advantage, and by buying their game, you accept the contrat. Therefore creating a cheat would be breaking the contract. Break of the contract is all they would need to take someone to court.
If Valve can't add anything to EULA, if it's a pre-written document used for all games, then they could write a whole other legal contract, aside from EULA. That would have the same effect. Hopefully I'm right

 

[Ahnteis]

Most cheat sites also include server hacks, ways to log on without valid cd key, etc.
They don't have to go after them on just cheating charges.

 

[CoreyGH]

Most cheat sites also include server hacks, ways to log on without valid cd key, etc.
They don't have to go after them on just cheating charges.

That's a good point. They'd have a much better basis for nailing someone on breaking into servers instead of just cheating in a game.

 

[Andy]

Legal action against cheating? In that case it could be argued that stopping cheating would deprive the cheaters of fun. Since the game itself is an abstract environment and the actual act of cheating isn't illegal, cheaters (and websites) that one persons freedom from cheating is another cheaters oppression. Even though the majority of people don't cheat, this tiny minority must be represented in a liberal democracy (this is why liberal democracies don't work ). The cheaters could even argue that this kind of action restricts thier freedom of speech, since it does not allow them to express themselves within the game, unlike non-cheaters (don't forget that cheating is not like libeling or slandering).

Since it would be very difficult to prove that cheating damages sales (especially if it is assumed that cheaters buy their products), I cannot see this working. As much as I despise cheaters, I agree with CoryGH, they have rights too.

 

[ACLeroK212]

Legal action against cheating? In that case it could be argued that stopping cheating would deprive the cheaters of fun. Since the game itself is an abstract environment and the actual act of cheating isn't illegal, cheaters (and websites) that one persons freedom from cheating is another cheaters oppression. Even though the majority of people don't cheat, this tiny minority must be represented in a liberal democracy (this is why liberal democracies don't work ). The cheaters could even argue that this kind of action restricts thier freedom of speech, since it does not allow them to express themselves within the game, unlike non-cheaters (don't forget that cheating is not like libeling or slandering).

Since it would be very difficult to prove that cheating damages sales (especially if it is assumed that cheaters buy their products), I cannot see this working. As much as I despise cheaters, I agree with CoryGH, they have rights too.

also, how can you base any legal arguement concerning cheating on the basis that it takes the fun away from the victoms. when casually playing any type of multiplayer game, of course it isn't "fun" getting pwned, but that doesn't make it illegal for people to keep killing you.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Maybe valve are trying to go further, and actually create anti-cheating laws?

If so, we could write a ton of support in, and they could dump the bags on the judge's desk 34th-street style.

 

[daveodeth]

All cheaters should be gagged and gang raped by.... horses.

yep....

or just take their PC's off them and then give them to other people with worse PC's.

horses that are actually horny otherwise it'll be a bit..... useless.

 

[Polykarbon]

Valve could logically take legal action against cheaters and win, as long as it was on a defined civil basis.

 

[Chris D]

I definitely think the cheating should be stopped.

 

[dura]

You can hope for it to be stopped, but despite of all of the measures that can be taken, it's always going to keep coming back.

 

[Dsty2001]

Actually, it is illegal, because if you notice in the EULA, it says that modification of code is prohibited, therefor that gives Valve all the right to do what they want with those that are caught.

 

[OCybrManO]

Legal action against cheating? In that case it could be argued that stopping cheating would deprive the cheaters of fun. Since the game itself is an abstract environment and the actual act of cheating isn't illegal, cheaters (and websites) that one persons freedom from cheating is another cheaters oppression. Even though the majority of people don't cheat, this tiny minority must be represented in a liberal democracy (this is why liberal democracies don't work ). The cheaters could even argue that this kind of action restricts thier freedom of speech, since it does not allow them to express themselves within the game, unlike non-cheaters (don't forget that cheating is not like libeling or slandering).

Since it would be very difficult to prove that cheating damages sales (especially if it is assumed that cheaters buy their products), I cannot see this working. As much as I despise cheaters, I agree with CoryGH, they have rights too.

They are breaking the agreement they accepted by installing Half-Life. They are bypassing official anti-cheat measures. They are using third-party programs and hacked dlls to alter the online gaming experience. They are breaking the rules that the game was designed around in a way unintended by the developers (as opposed to cheats built into the game) in order to gain an advantage over legitimate players or, in some cases, just to torment them.

The cheaters are at fault. Valve has the right to take action.

 

[Shuzer]

Actually, it is illegal, because if you notice in the EULA, it says that modification of code is prohibited, therefor that gives Valve all the right to do what they want with those that are caught.

Cheats don't modify the code. They bend the rules. Reverse engineering, of sorts.

 

[Dsty2001]

Cheats don't modify the code. They bend the rules. Reverse engineering, of sorts.

Yes, cheats do require modifying of code

 

[Shuzer]

Yes, cheats do require modifying of code

Really.. explain to me, then, how these cheat makers get the source code for games like CS? The answer? They don't. They really don't modify the code, they exploit it. I'd absolutely LOVE for you to be able to prove me wrong on this, too.

 

[Crusader]

If a company puts something in the EULA, doing something against that isn't automatically a crime, EULAs just don't hold so much sway in law terms.

Quite often questionable things will be found in EULAs, and they are simply overturned. It takes forever for a new law to be passed, so why would writing a EULA be free reign to make up your own laws and decide what is legal and what is not?

Personally, I hate cheaters and all, but only sad people with no lives outside of the PC think about it actually being illegal to cheat in a computer game. Oh noes, he got more kills than me!

Despite this, the prevalence of cheats is an annoying phenomenom, and we have seen that even hardest of conventional methods do not seem to be entirely successful in beating the cheats.

Which leads to what Valve are trying to do.

However it's not like they're going to start sueing people who use a trainer, instead they're just going to try to shut down any site's of questionable cheating content and make sure cheats are damn hard to get.

That should cut down on the cheating quite a lot, and I am all for the use of some legal threat to get those sites shut down.

However I can't say I would be dancing in the streets if people who used a wallhack started receiving thousand dollar fines or something. It's just a game..

 

[Dsty2001]

Really.. explain to me, then, how these cheat makers get the source code for games like CS? The answer? They don't. They really don't modify the code, they exploit it. I'd absolutely LOVE for you to be able to prove me wrong on this, too.

How do they get the Source Code for games like CS? That is simple, it's all over the freaking internet!

 

[Shuzer]

How do they get the Source Code for games like CS? That is simple, it's all over the freaking internet!

CS' source code is NOT on the internet. Nor is HL's, or any of those games.
The HL SDK is NOT the source code. It's simply the parts of it that are available to the public to modify the game to make mods.

That's why when HL2's source code got jacked it was such a big deal, that almost NEVER happens.