WASH POST: New Iraqi torture photos.

[Sparta]

ok, what if that invader happens to be a high level profile? Is he innocent?

and about the 4 contractors, I don't think anyone condoned the mutilation of thier bodies. I didn't like what happened to them, not because it made us look bad, but because it's just wrong.

Justice is Justice, it's not subject to somebody's views. Maybe I got some ideas wrong, but that doesn't mean I have my own view of justice, it just means I have a wrong view.
Jusitce is universal and not subject to opinions.

It doesnt mean you have the wrong view. If its your opinion, you can't be wrong. Also like i said, nothing warrants another persons death, so even if it was a high level profile, he shouldn't be killed or tortured like what the americans did.

And as for Ferd
Did i say civilians? because in that post it says

****ing hell the media need to stop releasing these photo's, its only hurting america's efforts more. The thing i don't get is that the entire world is appaulled when these things are released but not when Iraqi terrorists kill 4 american civilians, burn their bodies, mutilate them, and then string them up for all of Iraq to see. Why doesnt the media focus on something like that?

And yeah the US is ****ing up their country, but if you have read the whole thread, you would've realised i said i never wanted to go to war with Iraq, its Bush that wanted to finish what his dad started. READ THE THREAD NEXT TIME

 

[beat]

Honestly, who is surprised about the abuse? It is to be expected. Any time there is war, no matter who is fighting and for what, there will be a few nutballs abusing prisoners. If anyone even thought for a second before the photos were discovered that we weren't using abuse/mild torture tactics to gain intel from prisoners, then your an idiot. It would happen with any military force. It is the way it has been done since mankind first decided to make war with one another. We like to entertain our delusions of civilized nobility, but we are the same people today as we were 2000 years ago. There is nothing new under the sun. It's happeneing, it will continue to happen, nothing new here.

Honestly, it would be much better for all sides if this stuff never got into the public arena. Thats just the truth. It isn't justice, but we don't live in a just world. All that happens when this stuff is leaked is a few more Arabs decide to join their fireinds and stick explosives in their pants. When these photos are printed alot of people will huff and puff, and a few more people will die on both sides. That is not justice.

 

[Sparta]

Thank you beat, i've been saying that for the last three pages. Finally someone that understands me. Lets have children

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Honestly, who is surprised about the abuse? It is to be expected. Any time there is war, no matter who is fighting and for what, there will be a few nutballs abusing prisoners. If anyone even thought for a second before the photos were discovered that we weren't using abuse/mild torture tactics to gain intel from prisoners, then your an idiot. It would happen with any military force. It is the way it has been done since mankind first decided to make war with one another. We like to entertain our delusions of civilized nobility, but we are the same people today as we were 2000 years ago. There is nothing new under the sun. It's happeneing, it will continue to happen, nothing new here.

I used to have a defeatist attitude as well. I've since changed when i realised humans do have a choice and can change the way things are done.

As the saying goes, evil triumphs when the good do nothing. The evil brewing within the U.S will not last. Hopefully the next administration will stop trying to fight fire with fire, because all it's doing is breeding the very thing they're trying to quell. Hate.

 

[Gunner]

Honestly, it would be much better for all sides if this stuff never got into the public.

Errr, no. Covering up isn't a solution, that's just stupid. And if you think torture is okay whatever... I don't care but the USA isn't supposed to condone torture, look at the heads starting to roll at DC.

Oh and Sparta, Nick Berg wasn't an innocent civilian, I mean look at the circumstances:

-A Jewish man and U.S. citizen traveling alone in Iraq? I don't need to explain this one do I ?
-He had a few visits from the FBI while he was in US custody in Iraq, he was probably up to something.
-Military denies custody of Berg saying he had been in the custody of Iraqi police.
-He's still wearing the orange jumpsuit on the video. You don't exactly buy those at GAP.

 

[Gunner]

And I almost forgot, Nick Berg was dead when he was decapitated. You don't need an autopsy report to tell you that.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Hey cool, another thread I'm not gonna touch with a 10-foot barge pole.

...Oops.

 

[hasan]

Honestly, who is surprised about the abuse?

I wasn't surprised .. not because it's a war (what a stupid excuse .. it's a war it's a war .. it's just dumb to say that), but because I'm not expecting anything good coming from my enemy.

it would be much better for all sides if this stuff never got into the public arena. Thats just the truth. It isn't justice, but we don't live in a just world.

Sir, yes we don't live in a just world, that's why justice should happen. Releasing the photos probably won't bring justice right away, but it's a step towards it. heh, and I'm not expecting justice from the Americans anyway.

As the saying goes, evil triumphs when the good do nothing.

yeah, but you know .. heh, people with defeatist attitude will tell you there is no good and evil.

 

[CptStern]

guys, what some of you fail to realise is that it's illegal under the geneva accords to torture POW's (remember torture and interrogation are not the same thing). It's a war crime. That's why the coalition is quick to say that's it's a "few bad apples" because if it was discovered the torture orders came from above they would be in vilolation of international law (not that that's stopped them before).

That's why in guantanamo bay the prisoners are not considered POW's but foreign "combatants", they're not covered by the geneva accords...it's a grey legal area that benefits the coalition

 

[hasan]

I think the real reason they are quick to apologise and stuff is, this is the first time during the war that the American media publishes and foicuses on American atrocities .. the first this kind of stuf is exposed strongly to the public.

You know, stuff like this has been happening for over a year, and they didn't bother with it. It's just now because the American people are seeing it.

 

[clarky003]

I think the real reason they are quick to apologise and stuff is, this is the first time during the war that the American media publishes and foicuses on American atrocities .. the first this kind of stuf is exposed strongly to the public.

You know, stuff like this has been happening for over a year, and they didn't bother with it. It's just now because the American people are seeing it.

dont you know it, HUH!

 

[sabre89]

New Iraqi torture photos.

Oooh, goodie.

But register no thx.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Hmmm...
This isn't good at all.

 

[beat]

I don't consider my attitude defeatist, I have not accepted defeat in any sense of the word. I'm just a realist and understand the nature of man. This is what we are, this is what we do. We are not noble creatures for the most part, and atrocities like this are not uncommon where we are concerned. Thats just the truth. It may change in the future, it may not. I don't know. We may not even give ourselves the opportunity to have a future. But I don't consider the acceptance of our own nature as accepting defeat in any way. We must aspire to be better than we are, but understanding just what we are in all it's beauty and ugliness is the first step.

As the saying goes, evil triumphs when the good do nothing.

A saying I agree with, and it can also be applied to the war that it appears you disagree with. I believe the war is needed. I was never concerned with WMDs or finding them. The evil that we could no longer ignore was Saddam and his ilk. Removing Saddam from power was a just cause. I would hate to think I would have to explain all the reasons why, I think everyone has heard his crimes. But the implications of what we have done are much greater than just one evil man. Consider the ramifications of establishing a free nation and an ally in the heart of the most troublesome, oppressed, fanatical part of the world.

I hope you are not one of those "Fighting for peace is like ****ing for virginity" types. You must realize that sometimes the only way to have peace is to forcibly remove those who would disrupt peace. As is the case in the middle east.

not because it's a war (what a stupid excuse .. it's a war it's a war .. it's just dumb to say that)

I make no excuses for mankind. But you must realise that cruelty towards others will always occur in war. It's not an excuse, it's an eventuality.

but because I'm not expecting anything good coming from my enemy

Are you a terrorist? Are you a religious fanatic? Are you loyale to your former oppressor Saddam? If you ansewr no to these questions, then why do you consider the US the enemy when they fight for your benefit? You can say whatever you want about the motives of the US, but it is clear reguardless that Iraq will only benefit from being a Free nation.

Sir, yes we don't live in a just world, that's why justice should happen.

I won't argue with you that it should happen, I agree. I never said anything to the contrary. I only said that no justice could be attained from releasing the photos to the public. Only further injustice would result. And I stand by that. If I am wrong, show me. Where is the possible justice?

and I'm not expecting justice from the Americans anyway.

Why do you speak as if the US is particularly unjust? Like all nations we fault at times, but what other nation has done more for the world?

Errr, no. Covering up isn't a solution, that's just stupid.

Explain youself. You can't just swoop in and say "eer, no. The sky isn't blue, thats just stupid". Make your point.

I never really said this incident should be covered up. It's in the public arena now and any attempt to cover it up would be obvious. But it is clear that it will only benefit all parties if no more photos are released, and evidence of any other abuse never makes it's way to the public. No good can come of it. It will only increase the amount of rampant ignorant hatred of the US in the Arab world.

And if you think torture is okay whatever

No, I never said that. I am not condoning what they did. It's terrible. But it's better if the general public never finds out about the particular cases. It only hurts the cause and more innocent lives will be forfeit.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

A saying I agree with, and it can also be applied to the war that it appears you disagree with. I believe the war is needed. I was never concerned with WMDs or finding them. The evil that we could no longer ignore was Saddam and his ilk. Removing Saddam from power was a just cause. I would hate to think I would have to explain all the reasons why, I think everyone has heard his crimes. But the implications of what we have done are much greater than just one evil man. Consider the ramifications of establishing a free nation and an ally in the heart of the most troublesome, oppressed, fanatical part of the world.

It's useless to state this feeling we share. I support the war for the same reason, but people still say that we're supporting a different cause by doing so. I guess since they didn't support the war that would also mean they don't support taking down Saddam, which means evil flourishes.

Hasan even went as far as to PM me and say I was helping evil by joining the military.

 

[Jackal hit]

i'm wondering... where does hasan live? and how does this correlate to americans being his enemy. i hope he doesn't live in the US. what would it be like, living in a place where every person you see is your enemy? if he's an american citizen, means he's his own enemy too. poor guy.

 

[not28]

You know what I hate the most? Those idiots who say "Well, you weren't there, so you don't know what the exact situation was, so you shouldn't say anything." Bullshit! What the f*ck kind of situation would justify stripping down prisoners, piling up their bodies, and posing for a photograph? It makes me sick.

 

[beat]

You know what I hate the most? Those idiots who say "Well, you weren't there, so you don't know what the exact situation was, so you shouldn't say anything." Bullshit! What the f*ck kind of situation would justify stripping down prisoners, piling up their bodies, and posing for a photograph? It makes me sick.

I agree for the most part, but it isn't always so black and white. Consider the case of Lt. Col. Allen West. During an interrogation he fired his gun near the head of the iraqi to gain information. The iraqi then gave up information on another attack that was being planned by insurgents. Deplorable tactics which in this case yeilded reults and saved lives. I would find it hard to condemn West for what he did. He knew he was sacrificing his career to gain the intel, but he also knew the information was simply more important than his career or the iraqi.

 

[not28]

I agree for the most part, but it isn't always so black and white. Consider the case of Lt. Col. Allen West. During an interrogation he fired his gun near the head of the iraqi to gain information. The iraqi then gave up information on another attack that was being planned by insurgents. Deplorable tactics which in this case yeilded reults and saved lives. I would find it hard to condemn West for what he did. He knew he was sacrificing his career to gain the intel, but he also knew the information was simply more important than his career or the iraqi.

I see what you're saying, but firing a gun near somebody's head seems much less embarassing than parading them nakedly.

 

[hasan]

beat, your whole vision of evetns is twisted. America is no less evil than Saddam, therefore they have no right to claim to be fighting evil. It's liek Hitler lebirating east europe.

now, let me demonstrate part of your twisted look at the world

I would hate to think I would have to explain all the reasons why, I think everyone has heard his crimes.

Here, you didn't question whether his crimes can be excused, or explained, or rationalized.
now watch yourattitude towards American crimes.

you must realise that cruelty towards others will always occur in war.

Why do you speak as if the US is particularly unjust? Like all nations we fault at times

it isn't always so black and white. Consider the case of Lt. Col. Allen West. During an interrogation he fired his gun near the head of the iraqi to gain information. The iraqi then gave up information

it is clear that it will only benefit all parties if no more photos are released, and evidence of any other abuse never makes it's way to the public. No good can come of it. It will only increase the amount of rampant ignorant hatred of the US in the Arab world.

Now answer me this: What makes the US crimes different than Saddams's??
Saddam's crimes are a justification for an unjust war!! While American crimes are human mistakes .. but we terrorist use them for propaganda purposes. You don't want more photos to be released because we are idiots who don't understand the circumistances of these crimes and will decide to fight the Americans.

Why do saddam's crimes give a justification to the war, while American crimes don't give a justification for the resistance?!

Are you a terrorist? Are you a religious fanatic? Are you loyale to your former oppressor Saddam? If you ansewr no to these questions, then why do you consider the US the enemy when they fight for your benefit?

lol, you saved me the question "Are you an idiot?" becuase now I know the answer is yes.

Am I a terrorist? no, but I don't mind if you think I am.
Am I a religious fanatic? Yes I am religious, and proud of it. You can mock me for it if you want.
loyal of Saddam?? lol, this is what makes me think you are an idiot. I will not answer this question, it's just so stupid.

BTW, the Iraqi fighters are called resistance, so don't call them terrorists unless you want me to refer the US Army as "Ulooj" :E or infidels.

i hope he doesn't live in the US. what would it be like, living in a place where every person you see is your enemy?

The American people and the American government are totally different things in my eyes.

Hasan even went as far as to PM me and say I was helping evil by joining the military.

GhostValkyrie, I didn't PM you, you are the one who PMed me, and I replied to you. You make it seem like I am PMing people around telling them propaganda -_-

 

[Nickzer_Teh_Pwn]

Its ok Hasan, half the people on these boards are so drugged up with propoganda and patriotism they wouldnt know war crimes if they stood right in front of them. Refer to my earlier threads for this.

 

[The Mullinator]

I think the human race needs a good swift kick in the nards. Give us a threat of a giant asteriod hitting earth in 20 years, or some other extreme natural disaster that will focus us on matters other than the petty little infighting that we have lived with since the first civilizations were created.

Hopefully it would cause all of the extreme lefts and the extreme rights to shut their mouths and actually work together for a greater purpose.

Everything about the Iraq war just goes to show how pathetic of a race we are, the way the extreme leftists have been going about is pathetic, the way alot of people in the middle east have been reacting is pathetic, and the way, reasons, and handling of the war is pathetic.

This prison scandal is just another way of showing how pathetic we all really are. Its pathetic that US troops were doing those kinds of things, and its pathetic how some people in the middle east have/will use it to further their own goals that will involve atrocities of their own.

 

[Edcrab]

This prison scandal is just another way of showing how pathetic we all really are. Its pathetic that US troops were doing those kinds of things, and its pathetic how some people in the middle east have/will use it to further their own goals that will involve atrocities of their own.

Damn right. Terrorists will commit atrocities for any reason, and the west having a fair handful to their name makes little difference to their actions, just that they can feel (or at least hold claim to being) justified. This whole scandal undermines the west as a whole; hell, even the Mirror's UK abuse photos were proven (more or less) as fakes and the rebel cleric at the heart of it all still maintains that they're genuine.

Saddam did all this and worse during his time in power- and unsurprisingly the Iraqi people expected an improvement. Short of having the UN operate CCTV systems in every coaltition prison, its going to be hell in a variety of literal and not so literal ways. 'Course, as for trust, we are talking about an insurgent force that wants Rumsfeld and Koffi Annan dead. Yeah, that's right, declare open hostilities on every interested side, people'll pay more attention.

We should've pulled out the moment Saddam fell, but there'd be hell to pay afterward. If we vanish early, the world community will make sweeping accusations of "ignoring responsibilites" when we should be fixing the country, but its pretty f***ing obvious that we're not wanted there.

 

[gh0st]

ive got an idea. lets all switch to hydrogen cars so we can finally quit pumping billions of dollars into these countries and their oil, and just let them kill each other. how about we quit funding a bunch of hypocritical dictators that just rape their nations and opress their people. lets get hasan off his high horse and agree upon the following things.

prisoner abuse = bad
saddam gone = good

you know what america should start doing? how about we take a few muslim-looking people, kill them and drag them through streets. how about we find aanother muslim and cut his or her head off.

or hwo about we just pull out now and let them sort through their shit, see what they can do without us and our money. ingrateful ****s.

 

[hasan]

want to kill 4 more people?? 10,000 already and you are still hungry?

Then you wonder why we hate you?!?!

and yet still, you think we owe you!

 

[gh0st]

want to kill 4 more people?? 10,000 already and you are still hungry?

Then you wonder why we hate you?!?!

and yet still, you think we owe you!

quit making up numbers, you dont know how many people died, no one does. and iraqbodycount.org or whatever doesnt know either, that site is garbage. if you think 10000 is bad....:

The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. ... taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power"

 

[hasan]

let me remind you that you killed similar numbers in hiroshima, in just one moment. (it's a shame that we are talking about numbers, and don't realise that these are humans ..)

let's not mention vietnam .. or the native indians.

and you still think we owe you, and still don't know why we hate you.

 

[gh0st]

let me remind you that you killed similar numbers in hiroshima, in just one moment. (it's a shame that we are talking about numbers, and don't realise that these are humans ..)

let's not mention vietnam .. or the native indians.

and you still think we owe you, and still don't know why we hate you.

agreed. the british and ourselves didnt do too many nice things to the native americans.

yet we had REASONS for each of those things. hiroshima/nagasaki: a mainland assault against japan would have costed MILLIONS of lives, both american and japanese. .

and arguably you were the first one that mentioned numbers, at least mine are truthful.

and yeah you do owe us. if it wasent directly for the united states contribution to criminal organizations like opec, the middle east would be in shambles.. even more than it already is. and quit using "we" and "us" and "you guys".

 

[Nickzer_Teh_Pwn]

We should've pulled out the moment Saddam fell, but there'd be hell to pay afterward. If we vanish early, the world community will make sweeping accusations of "ignoring responsibilites" when we should be fixing the country, but its pretty f***ing obvious that we're not wanted there.

You create your own problems, then you clear them up.
Unfortunately this will be a disaster for the US, you cannot get all the sides to co-exist, things are so fragile between ethnic groups in Iraq - the Shi'ites and Sunnis have always hated each other, you simply cant reverse years of hate by throwing out 1 man.

And has anyone else noticed how we haven't heard anything on the Saddam front?
Its kind of the like the US will attempt to keep him from a fair trial for as long as possible. And, yes, everyone deserves the right to a fair trial, if you dont obide by your own laws then you undermine your entire legal systems credibility, take alook at the show trials of Islamic 'Terrorists' in Israel for instance..... Nuremberg anyone???


"If you dont agree with free speech for those you despise, then you don't agree with it at all"

Noam Chomsky

 

[Nickzer_Teh_Pwn]

yet we had REASONS for each of those things. hiroshima/nagasaki: a mainland assault against japan would have costed MILLIONS of lives, both american and japanese. .

Oooh, thats very debatable. Alot of Modern Historians believe that the US were close to signing a peace deal with Japan before the bombs fell, and let us also not forget the real heroes of World War 2 The Red Army.

Lets not create any myths people, over 30 million Russians died according to recent estimates, the Russians broke the back of the German War Machine, destroying 80% of thier army and over 70% of thier manpower that was killed/captured throughout the entire War happened on the E. Front. This illusion that 'America saved the day' is a myth, nothing more. The Western Front was a picnic compared to The E. Front, it was absolote hell - from the sheer volume of casualties to the war crimes commited against the Russian people - A very hushed up topic - it seems we only remember the Jews that died when nearly twice as many Russians died in concentration camps, I suppose that is understandable considering the breadth of the propoganda machine they own though. Take a look at Saving Private Ryan for instance:


- Every German is Ugly
- Every German is stupid
- Every German is evil
- Every German is dishonest and untrustworthy


In my opinion Spielberg is one of the biggest racist pieces of shit ever to grace God's green earth. And we wonder why the ignorant hate the Germans and think they are all the same when Mr. Spielberg plows out crap like that.

 

[gh0st]

Oooh, thats very debatable. Alot of Modern Historians believe that the US were close to signing a peace deal with Japan before the bombs fell, and let us also not forget the real heroes of World War 2 The Red Army.

Lets not create any myths people, over 30 million Russians died according to recent estimates, the Russians broke the back of the German War Machine, destroying 80% of thier army and over 70% of thier manpower that was killed/captured throughout the entire War happened on the E. Front. This illusion that 'America saved the day' is a myth, nothing more. The Western Front was a picnic compared to The E. Front, it was absolote hell - from the sheer volume of casualties to the war crimes commited against the Russian people - A very hushed up topic - it seems we only remember the Jews that died when nearly twice as many Russians died in concentration camps, I suppose that is understandable considering the breadth of the propoganda machine they own though. Take a look at Saving Private Ryan for instance:


- Every German is Ugly
- Every German is stupid
- Every German is evil
- Every German is dishonest and untrustworthy


In my opinion Spielberg is one of the biggest racist pieces of shit ever to grace God's green earth. And we wonder why the ignorant hate the Germans and think they are all the same when Mr. Spielberg plows out crap like that.

stunning..

 

[CptStern]

about the peace treaty with japan. Truman's diaries confirm that the japanese were looking to start surrender negotiations weeks before the bombs were dropped. It's all online but I'm too lazy to search for the actual documents

 

[beat]

you didn't question whether his crimes can be excused, or explained, or rationalized.
now watch yourattitude towards American crimes.

[snip]

Why do saddam's crimes give a justification to the war, while American crimes don't give a justification for the resistance?!

Saddam was a genocidal tyrannical opressor of the Iraqi people. He was a danger to his own countrymen and surrounding nations. His regime raped your country(assuming your Iraqi, which it sounds like you are), squandered money that was meant to aid the Iraqi people, and imprisoned and murdered countless innocent Iraqis. We are talking about a man whose regime regularly utilized torture chambers equipped with acid bath facilities and other such devices of torture.

America is Iraq's liberator of this tryant. America has committed no crimes against Iraq. A minority of soldiers within the coalition(not only Americans) have committed warcrimes against prisoners who were captured during the liberation of Iraq. These are not America"s crimes, these are the crimes of individuals who were fighting for the coalition and their crimes have been condemned by America. America is investigating their crimes and will hold them accountable.

There is absolutely no basis in comparing America to Saddam and all his brutalities. What Saddam has done in his reign of power is not excusable. What the minority of coalition soldiers have done to the prisoners is likewise inexcusable, but the actions of these few do not represent the actions or motives of America. To hate America based on the actions of a small group of abusive soldiers is no different than if I were to hate all Iraqis based on the misguided few who massacar innocents and coalition soldiers who are there to give them freedom.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

It just gets worse. This has got to be a joke.
U.S. wants exemption from criminal court
http://reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=514657&section=news
I hope the U.N does not let this happen. But considering the U.N is Americas puppet they'll bow to any demand.

 

[CptStern]

America is Iraq's liberator of this tryant. America has committed no crimes against Iraq. A minority of soldiers within the coalition(not only Americans) have committed warcrimes against prisoners who were captured during the liberation of Iraq. These are not America"s crimes, these are the crimes of individuals who were fighting for the coalition and their crimes have been condemned by America. America is investigating their crimes and will hold them accountable.

america is investigating 33 murders of pow's in afghanistan and iraq

america is waiting on 2 full disks of digital photos showing abuse

america will never know the number of innocents murdered in the field

america doesnt know what it's government is up to in iraq

america will never know the full extent of this:

the person who took this photo was fired for taking photos of american dead


this is what I believe to be a systemic callous attitude that is running rampant through the coalition forces:

disclaimer: some scenes may be disturbing but they are not graphic

http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/iraqiwar.wmv

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2004/01/284087.mpg




some links:

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Woamn_loses_job_042204.htm

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/US/apache_video_040109.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/01/284086.html

 

[CptStern]

oh btw news today of ethnic cleansing in the Sudan, tens of thousands killed, the ruler of sudan has been implicated...I guess we can expect america to overthrow they tyrant and save the people of Sudan. It might happen....sudan is an oil rich country

 

[Revisedsoul]

dude, your an idiot. dont ever tell someone to fight for a cause they dont believe in. sparta is right. they shouldnt release photos jsut to keep the press happy.
by reading your opinions ive come to the conclusion that you think the ends justify the means. you think its ok that another guy gets killed by terrorists, as long as the US population knows whats going on in a country they dont give a damn about

just one thing, i said a true cause. i didnt say a cuase someone doenst bleive in, a true cause is a cause that someone belives in, a true cause is different for each person

 

[hasan]

beat, dude .. this is just pathetic, no, it's stupid. every idiot in the world has figured it out by now. stop repeating a year old lies. I don't even want to bother myself in trying to explain to you something you will never accept ... your ego is blinding you.

and I just want to post this, cuz some people think this way:
http://www.jackbishop.com/images/liberated5.gif

 

[Sparta]

Take a look at Saving Private Ryan for instance:


- Every German is Ugly
- Every German is stupid
- Every German is evil
- Every German is dishonest and untrustworthy


In my opinion Spielberg is one of the biggest racist pieces of shit ever to grace God's green earth. And we wonder why the ignorant hate the Germans and think they are all the same when Mr. Spielberg plows out crap like that.

Did you even watch that movie? At the time that movie was set in, it was a very good reason to hate the germans, they were trying to take over most of the world, and were doing a pretty good job at it too. Not to mention the Holocaust. What about that part where Pvt Uppem is sticking up the german prisoner they capture? What happens then? Oh, wait, they let him go.
That movie's not racist, it was a brillant story, and one of his best. And if you're gonna say Spielberg's racist, what about Schindlers List? which is about GERMAN jewish prisoners. Sheesh.

Anyway, so far the only good thing thats come from this war has been the fall of Saddam. Other then that, its caused more problems then its solved. Bush is a f*cking moron. That i think EVERYONE can agree on

 

[Korgoth]

So are the lot of us arguing on an internet message board going to solve these problems?
Its all perspective. Some people see it as us Americans are doing the right thing and liberating Iraq. Some people see it as America is an occupational/opressive force. Some people (like me) see it as America is fighting a war in which neither side really understands the other.
Politics aside, the majority of American citizens going about their daily lives see the good. They are good people and believe we are doing good things in Iraq. Not knowing that the Iraqi people may not want us there, may not need our help, and are experiencing extreme hardships because of this offensive war.
If you then look past the political side of this whole debate you see that the American people are actually good people. Even if you say they are "brainwashed" then you must keep in mind that deep down they believe they are doing the right thing.
I'm truly sorry for the actions of my government. And in no way do they represent me or my feelings of the world. I don't think every Arab/Muslim is an evil boogy man out to kill me. And if I hear the term "Arab world" or "Arab street" one more time during a newscast trying to explain how people in that region feel, i'm just going to scream. Its all one world, its all the same world, and like it or not we are going to have to eventually come to terms and live at peace with one another. Otherwise we will continue the death and destruction until it takes us all.
Americans see ourselves as liberaters, Iraq resistance also see themselves as liberaters. Like it or not thats the way it is. And you can't say one side is right and just in doing so and the other is wrong because thats just rediculous.
Sensless murder, whether it be a well run "PR", precision military campaign, or a destructive suicide bombing, is wrong. And there is no way any "patriot" is going to convince me otherwise.
Sure, argue the fact that "military only strikes other military establishments", but your off your damn rocker if you don't think many, MANY innocents get injured or dead in the process.

Point is war is stupid, murder is stupid, terrorism is stupid, people are stupid.