Welcome Bulgaria And Romiania!

[Bob_Marley]

Without the EU our economy would be in rather a worse way. Greater tax on exports, less free movement, etc.

But most of all we'd lose acess to one key thing - a large, industrious hardworking workforce of Eastern Europeins who will happily do jobs that the vast majority of British people would never even consider, dismissing them as "dead end" and low paying. Due to the wealth difference between us and said Eastern Europein countries not only does this benefit us, but also them, they can take new skills and money earned hear back to thier homelands.

Also, very few stay on in this country for long periods of time, they might be here for a year or three, working legally and paying taxes. However, they dont stay till 65, so they dont draw a pension, as they're working they dont qualify for benefits, the vast majority of the workers either have no children or leave them at home while they work over here. Essentially, they pay rather alot of money into the pot while they take very little out.

 

[Raziaar]

They aren't causing the problems that I mentioned in the other post, but are greatly amplifying them. Suffice to say, the problems would be much less dramatic if there was a tight immigration policy.
Nowhere did I say that every problem in the country is because of immigrants. What am I, Hitler?

You guys would make a comic duo if that were the case... because I 'think'... and don't quote me on this, Solaris is Stalin.

 

[Solaris]

They aren't causing the problems that I mentioned in the other post, but are greatly amplifying them. Suffice to say, the problems would be much less dramatic if there was a tight immigration policy.
Nowhere did I say that every problem in the country is because of immigrants. What am I, Hitler?

If you kicked out every immigrant the NHS would collapse. There are loads of underpaid doctors in many European countries coming other here to work. That is good for us. There is no shortage of jobs, immigrants are boosting our economy, let more come!

 

[NeptuneUK]

You guys would make a comic duo if that were the case... because I 'think'... and don't quote me on this, Solaris is Stalin.

He is his evil twin brother. He wants to destroy the western world (starting with the UK) with weapons of mass destruction (starting with immigration)

If you kicked out every immigrant the NHS would collapse.

Now stalin wants to kick the immigrants out! Woah slow down! We haven't finished work on the gulags yet!

 

[Remus]

Oh and what is so bad that Russia did to eastern Europe

Wow you are officially an idiot. I would love to turn back the clock 20 years and take you over here to see what it was like dumb ass. Oh and who founded the damn Soviet Union and took the neighbouring countries hostage? Hmm lest see..... Russia!!!

Face it, everyone is looking at the UK. With it's pussy state benefits and healthcare for all.

Not. I for one never even considered to come work there or live there, but that's just me.

That's right! NeptuneUK patriotically tells Bulgaria and Romania to **** OFF

Yes we love you too

But most of all we'd lose access to one key thing - a large, industrious hardworking workforce of Eastern Europeans who will happily do jobs that the vast majority of British people would never even consider, dismissing them as "dead end" and low paying. Due to the wealth difference between us and said Eastern European countries not only does this benefit us, but also them, they can take new skills and money earned hear back to their homelands.

Well yes, most over here would agree to work for less then west Europeans would, but not all of us. For instance there was a story on the news yesterday about a guy from my country that went to work in the UK and he did very well for himself and yes you guessed it he gets payed just as much as any English citizen would.

You guys would make a comic duo if that were the case... because I 'think'... and don't quote me on this, Solaris is Stalin.

LOL

 

[NeptuneUK]

tbh

http://www.gotfuturama.com/Multimedia/EpisodeSounds/3ACV15/

(first link)

 

[Bob_Marley]

Well yes, most over here would agree to work for less then west Europeans would, but not all of us. For instance there was a story on the news yesterday about a guy from my country that went to work in the UK and he did very well for himself and yes you guessed it he gets payed just as much as any English citizen would.

Well, they all get paid as much as a British Citizen (minimum wage laws and all that), and there are a fair few who work very hard and get premoted and such. And I say good luck to them! That seems to be a difference between our young people, Eastern Europeins will work hard for what they want to do, where as far too many British people of the same age expect it all handed to them on a plate.

My goodness I sound old. I'm only 18! Why am I moaning about the youth of today? Whats wrong with the world?

 

[NeptuneUK]

Well, they all get paid as much as a British Citizen (minimum wage laws and all that), and there are a fair few who work very hard and get premoted and such. And I say good luck to them! That seems to be a difference between our young people, Eastern Europeins will work hard for what they want to do, where as far too many British people of the same age expect it all handed to them on a plate.

My goodness I sound old. I'm only 18! Why am I moaning about the youth of today? Whats wrong with the world?

 

[The Monkey]

Oh and what is so bad that Russia did to eastern Europe?

Also, because Soviet = Russian :upstare:

When did I say that Russia=Soviet. The people of modern day Russia were called Russians also during the cold war. Very few refered to them as "Soviets".

If you're asking what Soviet did to eastern Europe, I suggest you buy yourself a history book.

 

[Core407]

When did I say that Russia=Soviet. The people of modern day Russia were called Russians also during the cold war. Very few refered to them as "Soviets".

If you're asking what Soviet did to eastern Europe, I suggest you buy yourself a history book.

No worse than America, but no better.

 

[Raziaar]

Make it illegal for dentists trained under the NHS to leave to go private after just a couped of years. Hell, a massive proportion of our NHS doctors and staff are immigrants I've seen figures higher than 50% being used, I'll try and find a source if you want.

Tell me, why would you make something like that illegal for dentists?

 

[The Monkey]

No worse than America, but no better.

If you're talking about American involvement in South America and Asia, then yes, they were bad, but not nearly as bad as to what the USSR did towards its own population and the people of eastern Europe. We're talking about tens of millions of deaths here.

 

[repiV]

LOL, I don't mind if I sound lame as I'm not trying to be serious. Unfortunately you are trying your best to be rational and logical but still, as always, come across as an ignorant, small-minded prick.

Deal with the issues at hand or STFU you arrogant, self-righteous twat.

So you want to blame immigrants?

Why not advocate less military spending, more money into the NHS and nationalising the cleaners who clean our hospitals? Make it illegal for dentists trained under the NHS to leave to go private after just a couped of years. Hell, a massive proportion of our NHS doctors and staff are immigrants I've seen figures higher than 50% being used, I'll try and find a source if you want.

Immigration isn't the problem, it's new labour selling out out social welfare and health services to private companies, and to hell with the foundation hospitals. Iraq is costing us an absolute fortune, that money should be used to help fund our health services.

Less military spending? Christ, what a moronic suggestion. Our military is chronically underfunded. We should be spending double what we are. We have not even the resources to fight a small scale war without help from other countries.
As for healthcare, it would be much better if it was ALL dealt with by private companies and the government kept its hands out altogether. All government serves to do is restrict access to the best available treatments.
There are effective treatments for my mum's "terminal" illness, but due to bureaucracy, inflexibility and budgeting, and the fact that medical science is advancing far faster than regulation can keep up, I had to discover that for myself.
I'll probably have to get the drugs from somewhere like Mexico also, where you can buy without prescription.

Why do you think so much of the NHS is made up of immigrants? Do you think it might be because nobody in their right mind that's been born and bred here sees it as a desirable career choice?

 

[repiV]

If you kicked out every immigrant the NHS would collapse. There are loads of underpaid doctors in many European countries coming other here to work. That is good for us. There is no shortage of jobs, immigrants are boosting our economy, let more come!

Unsubstantiated blanket statements that ignore the many nuances of a complex issue such as "immigrants are boosting our economy" are hallmarks of the simple-minded.

 

[15357]

Once a commie... always a commie.







Anyway, we need the world to be divided in order to avoid a catastrophic war. Divided factions, rather than powerful unions, will cause less damage, and is less likely to cause a global world war. Globalization in only terms of communications and economy.

*goes off muttering something about 'russian commie paratroopers'*

 

[Solaris]

Tell me, why would you make something like that illegal for dentists?

Becuase we pay through taxes to train them, but then they go private and make us pay for there services. If they're going to do that, they should at least have to pay back the cost of training them.

 

[The Monkey]

Less military spending? Christ, what a moronic suggestion. Our military is chronically underfunded. We should be spending double what we are. We have not even the resources to fight a small scale war without help from other countries.
As for healthcare, it would be much better if it was ALL dealt with by private companies and the government kept its hands out altogether. All government serves to do is restrict access to the best available treatments.
There are effective treatments for my mum's "terminal" illness, but due to bureaucracy, inflexibility and budgeting, and the fact that medical science is advancing far faster than regulation can keep up, I had to discover that for myself.
I'll probably have to get the drugs from somewhere like Mexico also, where you can buy without prescription.

Why do you think so much of the NHS is made up of immigrants? Do you think it might be because nobody in their right mind that's been born and bred here sees it as a desirable career choice?

The days of the European empires are long gone, we can't just depend ourselves on our own might anymore. We must cooperate if we are going to survive on the global market. Even Germany, EU's biggest country, isn't strong enough to compete with India, China or the US. We have to work together if we are going to have any chance of making in the new world.

I agree with you that the EU has a lot of flaws. The French farmers are given a grotesque amount of allowance, and the whole agriculture sector of the EU in general needs a reform fast. But the EU is there, and it's not going to go anywhere, so we're going to have to do the best we can with it. Sadly, the Dutch and French voters turned down the constitution, and now we have to rely on a bunch of treaties. I'm still hoping that the constitution will see the light of day pretty soon, though.

 

[Raziaar]

Becuase we pay through taxes to train them, but then they go private and make us pay for there services. If they're going to do that, they should at least have to pay back the cost of training them.

Well... then make them pay the costs it took training them, if the state actually funded their way. Don't make it illegal for them to pursue private ventures for themselves. That right there is a stupid idea.

 

[repiV]

So, why exactly do I get a warning for writing an "offensive message" by replying to an offensive message in kind?
The even-handed thought police in action.
People say offensive shit here all the time - no doubt it's OK to be offensive if you're a socialist.

 

[repiV]

The days of the European empires are long gone, we can't just depend ourselves on our own might anymore. We must cooperate if we are going to survive on the global market. Even Germany, EU's biggest country, isn't strong enough to compete with India, China or the US. We have to work together if we are going to have any chance of making in the new world.

I agree with you that the EU has a lot of flaws. The French farmers are given a grotesque amount of allowance, and the whole agriculture sector of the EU in general needs a reform fast. But the EU is there, and it's not going to go anywhere, so we're going to have to do the best we can with it. Sadly, the Dutch and French voters turned down the constitution, and now we have to rely on a bunch of treaties. I'm still hoping that the constitution will see the light of day pretty soon, though.

We don't need an EU in order to cooperate.
I don't see the reality of your point, really...Norway is not part of the EU, yet it has the highest human development index in the world.
Many tiny nations such as Monaco and Luxembourg provide exceptional quality of life for their citizens...and by bonding our economy with that of socialist nations such as France, I don't see how we can do anything except harm it. In the UK we work similar hours to those worked in the USA (although 20 days holiday is standard, as opposed to America's 10)...really we should be seeing the same kind of prosperity as they have.
Contrast to France where by law you're not allowed to work over 35 hours a week...

I believe that devolved government is essential to freedom - how can a European super-state effectively govern for a continent with such diverse cultures? We are very different from the French, the Germans, the Swedish, and certainly the Turks. One-size-fits-all government is a recipe for disaster. What is considered acceptable in some cultures is unacceptable in others, and the bigger the government, the further away from the people it becomes. Yet the EU is moving towards federalism.
I certainly don't want any French politicians governing me. It's not a good idea, I tells ya.

 

[ZeeM]

When did I say that Russia=Soviet. The people of modern day Russia were called Russians also during the cold war. Very few refered to them as "Soviets".

If you're asking what Soviet did to eastern Europe, I suggest you buy yourself a history book.

Without "Soviet" there would be not the "Eastern Europe" you are talking about. All of them were pleased with the comforts that communism offered and all was fine and now that communism collapsed everyone's bitching about it.

 

[The Monkey]

We don't need an EU in order to cooperate.
I don't see the reality of your point, really...Norway is not part of the EU, yet it has the highest human development index in the world.
Many tiny nations such as Monaco and Luxembourg provide exceptional quality of life for their citizens...and by bonding our economy with that of socialist nations such as France, I don't see how we can do anything except harm it. In the UK we work similar hours to those worked in the USA (although 20 days holiday is standard, as opposed to America's 10)...really we should be seeing the same kind of prosperity as they have.
Contrast to France where by law you're not allowed to work over 35 hours a week...

France is not socialist. It has a market economy and is therefore capitalist. Anyway, Norway's prosperity has nothing to do with its lack of EU membership, but of its natural resources and its Social Democratic influence. By the way, Norway is bound by all treaties in the EU, so its practically a member already.

I believe that devolved government is essential to freedom - how can a European super-state effectively govern for a continent with such diverse cultures? We are very different from the French, the Germans, the Swedish, and certainly the Turks. One-size-fits-all government is a recipe for disaster. What is considered acceptable in some cultures is unacceptable in others, and the bigger the government, the further away from the people it becomes. Yet the EU is moving towards federalism.
I certainly don't want any French politicians governing me. It's not a good idea, I tells ya.

I never called for a super-goverment. I want to keep Sweden as a country just as much as you want to keep the UK as one.

Without "Soviet" there would be not the "Eastern Europe" you are talking about. All of them were pleased with the comforts that communism offered and all was fine and now that communism collapsed everyone's bitching about it.

You've lost it mate. The people of eastern Europe are more than happy to get the Russians out. Just ask any on this forum.

 

[repiV]

France is not socialist. It has a market economy and is therefore capitalist.

I know. Usually I would be the one arguing that point. However, I'm speaking in relative terms. France is not a business-friendly place at all.

Anyway, Norway's prosperity has nothing to do with its lack of EU membership, but of its natural resources and its Social Democratic influence. By the way, Norway is bound by all treaties in the EU, so its practically a member already.

Would you expect Norway to lag behind the rest of Europe in future due to its lack of EU membership? I'm not seeing any compelling arguments for the EU here. I think Europe with its uncontrolled immigration, "multiculturalism" and heavy doses of socialism is headed for ruin. The USA has its own problems, but none so self-destructive as Europe. If we took an American stance on national unity and cultural integrity, national defence, personal responsibility (perhaps the most important of all, it's a trait that seems to have been lost in our culture of entitlement) and the free market and combined it with European secularism and multilateralism, we'd be onto a winner.
In fact I think we were doing pretty damn well, before Blair got into power.

I never called for a super-goverment. I want to keep Sweden as a country just as much as you want to keep the UK as one.

I know you didn't. However, that's what the EU is becoming and in a certain sense, is. European legislation applies to EU member countries, MEPs who are totally unelected by us have constituencies and a voice in our countries just as normal MPs do, in that sense the EU IS a super-government. The EU as it stands now is probably not too far away from the United States as it was originally intended to be (the federal government has a LOT more power than it used to).

 

[Asknoone]

So, why exactly do I get a warning for writing an "offensive message" by replying to an offensive message in kind?
The even-handed thought police in action.

Yes, because that's the mature way to go. Respond in the same fashion. Someone throws a brick at you? Throw it right back! Sorry, but that isn't how it works. You don't have to reply to such messages with an equally inappropriate response. He received an infraction too.

Moved to Politics.

 

[repiV]

Yes, because that's the mature way to go. Respond in the same fashion. Someone throws a brick at you? Throw it right back! Sorry, but that isn't how it works. You don't have to reply to such messages with an equally inappropriate response. He received an infraction too.

Moved to Politics.

Why is it any concern of yours if two people want to insult each other? Further, how is it your place to dictate to someone four years your senior what is and is not "mature" behaviour? Sometimes people just need a damn good slap round the face.
Also, offensive things are said here all the time, and quite rightly it is usually ignored. Where's the consistency there?
Finally, since the only logical reason for you to give pomegranate an infraction is in order to punish him for his behaviour towards me, would you mind removing it? People can insult me all they like, I'm not a baby.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Tsk.

Age is irrelevant. You don't automatically get a higher level of respect just because you're older than someone. Nor does it mean that you are more "mature" than people younger than yourself.

 

[Asknoone]

Why is it any concern of yours if two people want to insult each other? Further, how is it your place to dictate to someone four years your senior what is and is not "mature" behaviour? Sometimes people just need a damn good slap round the face.
Also, offensive things are said here all the time, and quite rightly it is usually ignored. Where's the consistency there?
Finally, since the only logical reason for you to give pomegranate an infraction is in order to punish him for his behaviour towards me, would you mind removing it? People can insult me all they like, I'm not a baby.

Maturity is measured in experience, not in age. Do not try to patronize me simply because your older, that holds no real bearing here at all. My problem here is that people are not allowed to throw insults at each other. You cannot tell someone to **** or call them a twat, that is considered flaming and it is against the rules. What if you decided to report it, because you didn't like being called ignorant prick? I'd be obliged to dish out a warning. I'm sure alot of people would report it as flaming, and just because you don't mind being insulted does not mean that this person becomes an exception to the rule.
The true inconsistency here would be basing my judgement around what you think and believe. That is not the way this forum is run, and there are certain rules to abide by. Politics is pretty heavy on the insults, so much that it's hard for moderators to keep track of it all. It's something we hope to improve in the future, and currently were doing our best with it.

Pomegranante received a warning not because I give a damn what you think, but because such behaviour is against the rules. And as such, it will not be removed. To continue to post in such a manner will get you banned, and that goes to everyone. Play nice, or don't play at all. If you'd like to continue this take it pm.

 

[pomegranate]

edit: 'taken pm'

 

[CptStern]

Why is it any concern of yours if two people want to insult each other? Further, how is it your place to dictate to someone four years your senior what is and is not "mature" behaviour? Sometimes people just need a damn good slap round the face.
Also, offensive things are said here all the time, and quite rightly it is usually ignored. Where's the consistency there?
Finally, since the only logical reason for you to give pomegranate an infraction is in order to punish him for his behaviour towards me, would you mind removing it? People can insult me all they like, I'm not a baby.

alright everybody line up for a good old fashioned slapping ..since I'm older than you repiv, you're up first

 

[Tagaziel]

Without "Soviet" there would be not the "Eastern Europe" you are talking about. All of them were pleased with the comforts that communism offered and all was fine and now that communism collapsed everyone's bitching about it.

Can you come to Poland and repeat that in the face of people who lost their loved ones because of the communist secret police? Or the ones repressed and relocated to gulags? Or maybe you should see the state Poland and neighbouring countries were in when the Soviet Union fell?

This is a statement that's inherently ungrounded and, well, stupid.

EDIT: Stern, I love you.

 

[Remus]

^^ Couldn't of said it better myself.

Edit: Mods could you please edit the title of this thread it's "Romania" not "Romiania":|

 

[repiV]

Maturity is measured in experience, not in age. Do not try to patronize me simply because your older, that holds no real bearing here at all. My problem here is that people are not allowed to throw insults at each other. You cannot tell someone to **** or call them a twat, that is considered flaming and it is against the rules. What if you decided to report it, because you didn't like being called ignorant prick? I'd be obliged to dish out a warning. I'm sure alot of people would report it as flaming, and just because you don't mind being insulted does not mean that this person becomes an exception to the rule.
The true inconsistency here would be basing my judgement around what you think and believe. That is not the way this forum is run, and there are certain rules to abide by. Politics is pretty heavy on the insults, so much that it's hard for moderators to keep track of it all. It's something we hope to improve in the future, and currently were doing our best with it.

Pomegranante received a warning not because I give a damn what you think, but because such behaviour is against the rules. And as such, it will not be removed. To continue to post in such a manner will get you banned, and that goes to everyone. Play nice, or don't play at all. If you'd like to continue this take it pm.

And what do you know of my experience? Nothing at all. When I was your age, I was running QuakeNet's customer service efforts. I never thought I had the right to infringe on people's freedom of speech either, unless they were disrupting the service provided.
The fact remains that you're legally a child, as such you've never had a proper job, and you're lecturing me on how to live my life. I don't care if you're a moderator or not, that's the epitome of arrogance. Considering that my youngest colleague at my new and highly paid job is 33, and I have the same job description as these people, I'm sure you'll understand if I find your attitude galling. Voice your opinion all you like, but don't think you have the right to define maturity.

The inconsistency is that the rules are rarely enforced, and people (including our CptStern here) make offensive comments in pretty much every politically charged thread. Solaris can be one of the most obnoxious people here at times, Mikael Grizzly even more so. Have they ever received infractions?
There's two things I can't tolerate; people who don't know their place, and stupidity. What place do you have to tell me what the right and wrong reaction to those occurences are?
If something was actually being disrupted, I'd see your point - but you weren't involved in the conversation, nobody complained about anything, and it was really a non-issue. It seems like you're just enforcing rules for the sake of enforcing rules.

 

[repiV]

alright everybody line up for a good old fashioned slapping ..since I'm older than you repiv, you're up first

Go ahead. I might think you say stupid shit when it comes to politics, but I would never dictate anything to you, even if I owned the site. You have proven yourself in life a great deal more than I have. What right would I have? None at all.

 

[Absinthe]

Since when does one require the "right" to tell people they're stupid regardless of comparative ages? That's one of the dumbest things I've heard.

I'm not calling anybody here that. But especially on a medium like an internet forum where communication is 95% text-based, the only thing that should matter are the words you put to the page. The number of years you've spent on the planet is largely irrelevant.

So basically, who gives a shit if you're four years older than Samon? There's no good reason as to why anybody should care.

 

[repiV]

Since when does one require the "right" to tell people they're stupid regardless of comparative ages?

That's one of the stupidest things I've heard.

He can tell me I'm stupid if he wants. Where did I suggest otherwise?
There's a difference between voicing your opinion and laying down the law. Hell, the politics section just wouldn't be the same without the insults. You know it, I know it, I'm sure CptStern knows it too.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

No-one has lectured you on how to live your life. You have, however, been told how to behave on these forums. That's what the moderators are for.

 

[Tagaziel]

Actually repiV I didn't receive any infraction because I behave in a civil manner and I respect the forum laws. Now, you throw your age around and talk about how mature you are, but you forget one thing - age is not an argument.

You know who has experienced life? A kid in Africa whose family was murdered by rebels. That's life experience. Of course, you dismiss him as a child.

Not to mention that the situation is different in the Internet - your age has no meaning here, and you gain validity, respect and friends through your posts and behaviour. So far it seems you have gained very little of it here, for reasons which are pretty much self-evident.

EDIT: This post marked the transition of HL2.net from the old format to new format. Amazing.

 

[repiV]

No-one has lectured you on how to live your life. You have, however, been told how to behave on these forums. That's what the moderators are for.

The implication was quite clearly there that Samon's way of dealing with things is more "mature", and I should be following his example. That is, in effect, telling me how to live my life, since how you deal with people is a very large part of that.
You're very selective about how you tell how to behave on these forums. I'm not nearly as hostile as some of the other regulars here.

 

[Absinthe]

He can tell me I'm stupid if he wants. Where did I suggest otherwise?
There's a difference between voicing your opinion and laying down the law. Hell, the politics section just wouldn't be the same without the insults. You know it, I know it, I'm sure CptStern knows it too.

And in this case, you were in violation of law dictated for the forums. Something that Samon, regardless of his age, has to uphold as part of his position.

I do accept insults as part of the Politics section, but I have also been reprimanded for partaking in it. It's not something I really try to contest since I know I'm in the wrong.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

The implication was quite clearly there that Samon's way of dealing with things is more "mature", and I should be following his example. That is, in effect, telling me how to live my life, since how you deal with people is a very large part of that.
You're very selective about how you tell how to behave on these forums. I'm not nearly as hostile as some of the other regulars here.

and yet here are you, doing the same thing. Except you seem to think that it's justified because you're older than Samon.