Welcome Bulgaria And Romiania!

[Solaris]

I think it was Karl Marx who said he wasn't a Communist.

He said "if thats what a marxist is I am not a marxist"

 

[kirovman]

"Your name is Henry Jones Junior, we called the dog Karl Marx!"

 

[Angry Lawyer]

I like Europe. The only reason us Brits are bitching is because the eastern Europeans are willing to work harder than our natives.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[repiV]

I like Europe. The only reason us Brits are bitching is because the eastern Europeans are willing to work harder than our natives.

-Angry Lawyer

I have a lot of respect for Poles, don't get me wrong. But how I feel about them is pretty irrelevant, the only important question is whether a particular policy is beneficial to us.
Immigration is a tool for improving the nation if used correctly, and a weapon for destroying it if used carelessly.
The plight, or otherwise, of potential immigrants should not even be a consideration. Only an idiot suggests a deal that is detrimental to himself.

 

[Solaris]

I have a lot of respect for Poles, don't get me wrong. But how I feel about them is pretty irrelevant, the only important question is whether a particular policy is beneficial to us.
Immigration is a tool for improving the nation if used correctly, and a weapon for destroying it if used carelessly.
The plight, or otherwise, of potential immigrants should not even be a consideration. Only an idiot suggests a deal that is detrimental to himself.

Or someone who likes to ... you conservatives probably arn't familiar with this concept.... but....help people?

 

[repiV]

Or someone who likes to ... you conservatives probably arn't familiar with this concept.... but....help people?

So I should help a few hundred thousand people from one country whose problems are not my doing and who should be putting their own house in order instead of running away, and in the process harm the 60-70 million people in my own country, including but not limited to myself, my family and my friends, who over hundreds of years earned the prosperity we enjoy today?
Sound plan, Einstein.

 

[Solaris]

We have no more claim to Britians success than anyone else.

We have not earned what we ourselves did not help build.

 

[repiV]

We have no more claim to Britians success than anyone else.

We have not earned what we ourselves did not help build.

Then go and live in Nepal.

 

[Walter]

I see you're dummer than I thought. Such topics should not be discussed by kids like you.

 

[Solaris]

I see you're dummer than I thought. Such topics should not be discussed by kids like you.

Less of the add homein bullshit please.

 

[15357]

Yeah, I was enjoying reading this, until Mr. Walter cam along and made me lol from the irony.

 

[pomegranate]

repiV I would really like to see a more considered response to Solaris' point.

 

[15357]

We have no more claim to Britians success than anyone else.

We have not earned what we ourselves did not help build.

You helped yourselves to a lot of nations, that took a lot of work.

 

[repiV]

repiV I would really like to see a more considered response to Solaris' point.

All productive members of a society are "helping to build" it. It's not like a society is made successful and then that's it, the people born there are simply fortunate. We could easily be relegated to the status of a third world country within a generation, if we stopped doing things as well as we do.
Like Spain's collapse into utter poverty.

 

[pomegranate]

Okay, I would counter that due to past achievements (e.g. strong position in the international community, strong currency, highly developed economy, strong service industry, well developed higher education, strong tradition in science and technology) the same amount of effort put in by people in Britain achieves more than the same amount of effort put in by someone in another country. We're just surfing on the wave of prior achievement, we're not putting any more effort into the system than someone in, say, Bulgaria.
Same principle as that if you're rich, it's easier to make more money than if you're poor..

 

[repiV]

Okay, I would counter that due to past achievements, the same amount of effort put in by people in Britain achieves more than the same amount of effort put in by someone in another country. Same as the idea that if you're rich, it's easier to make more money than if you're poor.

That's also true, but it's not my problem. The solution is not for us to open the floodgates, but for those people to work on sorting their own country out.
Doesn't them bringing themselves up to our level sound more sensible than bringing ourselves down to their level?

Countries run like businesses, not charities, and it's important to remember that. And letting people come over here doesn't solve anything for anyone in the long term. It's not like we're not massively overcrowded already, not to mention all the other factors. And while masses of Poles are deserting their country to come here, the ones left behind are in an even worse position. It's not even a good idea on humanitarian grounds.

 

[Walter]

Russia is controlled by thieves in law after the collapse of the soviet union.

The citizens are good though.

I thought this is the politics thread, not i make things up thread.

P.S. I partially agree with you, Mikael. Partially, because i don't believe communism is evil, on the contrary, It's a lot better AS AN IDEOLOGY than capitalism, would it be possible to realise. The thing is, it's impossible to have communism because people just aren't like that to live without money, be dependant more on society than the law.
USSR thought they can achieve it "at any cost", the thing which made it a harsh dictatorship that killed millions of people. It didn't even succeed in building up socialism (not even close), so communism was something too far to think about.
While capitalism is currently the best(and real)way to live, it has a lot of minuses.
My dream is that the European Union would be something like...Sweden, or Denmark, or Norway, none of that American hardcore capitalism that rather serves the rich and forsakes the poor.
Before you start calling me a pro-commie, i'm not, because I understand that this is all a fairy tale (i live in a country that was part of it). It just brought down everything to zero and collapsed, simple as that.

But to stick to the main topic, I welcome our new Members to the EU. While it won't be easy for you at first, i'm sure you'll manage to adapt and benefit from it even more in the long run.

 

[repiV]

No able-bodied person has any excuse for being poor in modern Western society. If you were spinning that line about "serving the rich and forsaking the poor" a couple of hundred years ago, you may have had a point. The fact of the matter is, everyone has easy access to education, even higher education, training and opportunity in general.
If you're poor, you're poor because you don't deserve to be rich. Not because the system is keeping you down.

 

[Walter]

...shut up.

 

[repiV]

...shut up.

Congratulations, you win the prize for the most pathetic response yet.

 

[Walter]

No, i just don't agree with your awful views.
I doubt you can become as rich as Bill Gates or...Abramovich just by ending oxford university. That happens either by luck, abuse of law, or something simmiliar. Rather it's possible to reach "middle class" level with it for the most.
I have nothing against the rich, i just see it bad that those of lower classes live in more and more poverty, while the rich get tax cuts and things like that. Social sphere in Nordic countries should be an example for the whole EU. Sure, I understand that it's not that easy, but still possible to achieve.
You can have 60% taxes, but still live freely and be rich if you have the chance to. Wouldn't it be great to be less dependant on money everywhere?

EDIT: While I think money dependence should be put to a minimum, it should still exist, so that people would be forced to work.

 

[repiV]

No, i just don't agree with your awful views.
I doubt you can become as rich as Bill Gates or...Abramovich just by ending oxford university. That happens either by luck, abuse of law, or something simmiliar. Rather it's possible to reach "middle class" level with it for the most.
I have nothing against the rich, i just see it bad that those of lower classes live in more and more poverty, while the rich get tax cuts and things like that. Social sphere in Nordic countries should be an example for the whole EU. Sure, I understand that it's not that easy, but still possible to achieve.
You can have 60% taxes, but still live freely and be rich if you have the chance to. Wouldn't it be great to be less dependant on money everywhere?

EDIT: While I think money dependence should be put to a minimum, it should still exist, so that people would be forced to work.

Why are my views awful?
Can you give me even one fact to support your claim that the poor are kept poor by "the system"?
I didn't go to Oxford university. I didn't go to any university. I also missed three years of high school. I lived in abject poverty for most of my life, have epilepsy that was at one point so debilitating I couldn't leave the house, suffered eight years of abuse and got bullied senseless at school. And now my mum is dying.
I'm 21 now, and I expect to earn ?45,000 this year. I can't give you an exact figure on that, since I'm in sales, but it won't be less than ?30,000. I'm also popular and am happy with all aspects of my life except my mother's illness.
I've faced hardships most people can only dream of, but it hasn't stopped me going where I want to go. Put yourself in my shoes. What would you think of people that wallow in their shit all their life?
FYI, people like Bill Gates are rich because they're hard-working to the extreme, dedicated, intelligent, cunning, but most of all they have DRIVE and PERSISTENCE. Not because they were born into the right family.

 

[Cole]

i just see it bad that those of lower classes live in more and more poverty, while the rich get tax cuts and things like that.

Do you know why the rich gets tax cuts?

Let me ask you something, where does most of the money in the tax collection come from? RICH PEOPLE. So hey if they would like to give a little less, LET THEM. There putting in a lot more money for taxes. There even using that money for things like charities. Bill Gates has his own charity foundation.

So hey if Bill Gates would like to pay a little less in taxes let him. He gives so much money out and puts so much more money into our tax collection than everyone else.


If you are poor it's not because of the mann holding you down. It's because you don't have the drive to be anything more.

 

[repiV]

Do you know why the rich gets tax cuts?

Let me ask you something, where does most of the money in the tax collection come from? RICH PEOPLE. So hey if they would like to give a little less, LET THEM. There putting in a lot more money for taxes. There even using that money for things like charities. Bill Gates has his own foundation.

So hey if Bill Gates would like to pay a little less in taxes let him. He gives so much money out and puts so much more money into our tax collection.

Bill Gates is leaving 90% of his money to charity.

But remember, he's Satan incarnate...

 

[Cole]

But remember, he's Satan incarnate...

Obviously Satan's a pretty nice guy...just a little misunderstood.

 

[repiV]

He keeps God and Allah in line, so he's cool with me.

Meh, gotta go to bed I guess. Bloody 7:30 Monday starts. *mumble*

Cya tomorrow.

 

[15357]

No able-bodied person has any excuse for being poor in modern Western society. If you were spinning that line about "serving the rich and forsaking the poor" a couple of hundred years ago, you may have had a point. The fact of the matter is, everyone has easy access to education, even higher education, training and opportunity in general.
If you're poor, you're poor because you don't deserve to be rich. Not because the system is keeping you down.

Exactly.

I can't add any more.

 

[Walter]

Why are my views awful?
Can you give me even one fact to support your claim that the poor are kept poor by "the system"?
I didn't go to Oxford university. I didn't go to any university. I also missed three years of high school. I lived in abject poverty for most of my life, have epilepsy that was at one point so debilitating I couldn't leave the house, suffered eight years of abuse and got bullied senseless at school. And now my mum is dying.
I'm 21 now, and I expect to earn ?45,000 this year. I can't give you an exact figure on that, since I'm in sales, but it won't be less than ?30,000. I'm also popular and am happy with all aspects of my life except my mother's illness.
I've faced hardships most people can only dream of, but it hasn't stopped me going where I want to go. Put yourself in my shoes. What would you think of people that wallow in their shit all their life?
FYI, people like Bill Gates are rich because they're hard-working to the extreme, dedicated, intelligent, cunning, but most of all they have DRIVE and PERSISTENCE. Not because they were born into the right family.

Well, i feel sorry for you.
Yes, Bill Gates is a hard working to the extreme, but that's not why he got rich. He got rich because he was the FIRST hard working man in that sphere. Wouldn't he create Windows i doubt he'd be that rich, even if he'd worked 24/7.
People are kept poor by having higher taxes AND high dependance on money.
I would like to see my country with elders that live instead of ending living their days, hospitals that don't require your insurance to help you be cured when you need it. Single mothers that have many children and are capable of giving them a normal life. All these people deserve to have half of their life without any money.
If a man wants to be rich, let him be, i'm not saying it being bad, i'm saying that it's awful when privatisation gets it's hands on the wrong things, when it kills social support.

 

[repiV]

Well, i feel sorry for you.

Thanks, but I don't need you to feel sorry for me. It's merely an illustration of how completely wrong you are.

Yes, Bill Gates is a hard working to the extreme, but that's not why he got rich. He got rich because he was the FIRST hard working man in that sphere. Wouldn't he create Windows i doubt he'd be that rich, even if he'd worked 24/7.

What? That's bollocks. Look at any successful entrepreneur. They all have a lot of things in common, and being "the first" is not one of them. Windows isn't even "the first"...it takes rather a lot of inspiration from the Macintosh OS.

People are kept poor by having higher taxes AND high dependance on money.

Um, generally it works that you get taxed more the richer you are, not the other way around.

I would like to see my country with elders that live instead of ending living their days, hospitals that don't require your insurance to help you be cured when you need it. Single mothers that have many children and are capable of giving them a normal life. All these people deserve to have half of their life without any money.
If a man wants to be rich, let him be, i'm not saying it being bad, i'm saying that it's awful when privatisation gets it's hands on the wrong things, when it kills social support.

I don't even know where you live, but nothing you say is applicable to the UK, or any other developed country.

 

[Walter]

Thanks, but I don't need you to feel sorry for me. It's merely an illustration of how completely wrong you are.

You just think that i'm wrong, because you see things differently. That's normal.

What? That's bollocks. Look at any successful entrepreneur. They all have a lot of things in common, and being "the first" is not one of them. Windows isn't even "the first"...it takes rather a lot of inspiration from the Macintosh OS.

Macintosh was Macintosh, Windows was a revolution.

Um, generally it works that you get taxed more the richer you are, not the other way around.

That depends on the country.

I don't even know where you live, but nothing you say is applicable to the UK, or any other developed country.

Uk perhaps not, but i'm not saying anything bad at UK. I just meant to say that capitalism should be kept at balance, and not let it grip too much power in things it's not supposed to, like in countries as...USA, and Russia(at least it used to there, don't know what's the situation lately).

Edit: ah, now i remember how it's called. Some people call it Corpocracy if i'm right.

 

[repiV]

You just think that i'm wrong, because you see things differently. That's normal.

No, I think you're wrong because you ARE wrong. The old "every point of view has equal merit" damage-control argument won't work on me. You haven't been able to provide even a single fact in support of your claim that the poor are kept poor by the rich. The difference in opportunities afforded to the rich and the poor is very small. I'm a recruiter, I can tell you that with a high degree of factual basis that the wealth of the individual has NO BEARING on their chances. I placed a 16 year old into an interview for a ?23,000 position today because her attitude and potential impressed me so much (that, and my client values the right attitude as a top priority and is open to hiring inexperienced people with potential). She was pretty damn common, too. Qualifications mean absolutely nothing to me or any other competent recruiter either, as they are no indication of ability. The exception, of course, is if they are recruiting for a field that requires university education such as the legal or medical sectors. The poor are poor because they are incapable in one way or another. It's as simple as that. We live in a meritocracy. You either cut it or you don't.

Macintosh was Macintosh, Windows was a revolution.

You are aware that there were many, many variations of Windows before Windows 95? Windows in itself wasn't a revolution at all. In any case, Windows' success is due to good implementation rather than any kind of innovation.

That depends on the country.



Uk perhaps not, but i'm not saying anything bad at UK. I just meant to say that capitalism should be kept at balance, and not let it grip too much power in things it's not supposed to, like in countries as...USA, and Russia(at least it used to there, don't know what's the situation lately).

The poor aren't kept down by the rich in the USA, either. If anything, it is the welfare state that keeps people down by allowing and even encouraging them to stay at the bottom.

 

[Walter]

Thanks, but I don't need you to feel sorry for me. It's merely an illustration of how completely wrong you are.

But still, I wouldn't try making my statements true just because my mother is sick or i've had an epilepsy. Don't think you're so special about it, everyone has his own cross.

Edit: one http://pinkofeministhellcat.typepad.com/pinko_feminist_hellcat/2005/04/the_rich_get_ri.html .
Edit: two http://www.bruceeisner.com/new_culture/2004/08/the_rich_keep_g.html

 

[repiV]

Double post.

 

[repiV]

But still, I wouldn't try making my statements true just because my mother is sick or i've had an epilepsy. Don't think you're so special about it, everyone has his own cross.

You miss the point entirely.
I am demonstrating to you that the system does not "keep people down". People keep themselves down, and on a sidenote, if the system were in any way involved in keeping people down, it would be socialism that does this and not capitalism. Capitalism empowers people, whereas socialism encourages them to rely on the state.
And you still have not come up with any argument supporting your claim.

Edit: one http://pinkofeministhellcat.typepad.com/pinko_feminist_hellcat/2005/04/the_rich_get_ri.html .
Edit: two http://www.bruceeisner.com/new_culture/2004/08/the_rich_keep_g.html

You really expect me to read a website called "pinko feminist hellcat"?
I hate pinkos and I hate feminazis. Though, just for grins, I did read that article and it's bullshit. The rich are at fault because the poor waste their money on the lottery? Nice.
As for your second article...so the rich-poor gap is widening. What does this prove, beyond the fact that the rich-poor gap is widening? Nothing.

 

[Walter]

Capitalism empowers people, whereas socialism encourages them to rely on the state.

Actually i'm against that level of socialism. I just think that things like education,healthcare and things like that should be completely covered by the country. If a man is to start his career from 0, none of those things should be a problem to him. However, i often hear that students drop off because of not being able to pay their bills, and that's awful.

 

[15357]

Education, it's your duty. But what did you do to deserve free healthcare?

 

[Walter]

you must've had repiv rape your mind too much with that deserve crap. You're a human being for criss sakes, if you think it's normal for a man to die of cancer when you can do something about it, then you're no human being.

...what did i do to deserve free healthcare?! i pay taxes, i work, you idiot.

 

[repiV]

Actually i'm against that level of socialism. I just think that things like education,healthcare and things like that should be completely covered by the country. If a man is to start his career from 0, none of those things should be a problem to him. However, i often hear that students drop off because of not being able to pay their bills, and that's awful.

Well, the welfare state allows people to remain at the bottom one way or another. I don't think university education should be covered by the state at all. I didn't go to university, why should I have to spend my whole life footing the bill for others who choose to do so?
There are much more awful things in life than students not being able to manage their finances properly.
Healthcare is a tricky one. The NHS is shit, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

 

[15357]

you must've had repiv rape your mind too much with that deserve crap. You're a human being for criss sakes, if you think it's normal for a man to die of cancer when you can do something about it, then you're no human being.

...what did i do to deserve free healthcare?! i pay taxes, i work, you idiot.

Retard, you work for your own sake. Unless you're military/public service, which I highly doubt, your working means shit.

You pay taxes for transportation and education. If you paid taxes for your and other's healthcare, you would be paying 80% income tax.

You get cancer, if you don't treat it, you die. If you don't have moeny, well then, you should have got a paying job when you could have.

 

[kirovman]

Unless you're military/public service, which I highly doubt, your working means shit.

Well the economy would collapse if no private sector employees worked. The private sector is more important to the economy than the vast majority of the public sector, I would say.

Well, the welfare state allows people to remain at the bottom one way or another. I don't think university education should be covered by the state at all. I didn't go to university, why should I have to spend my whole life footing the bill for others who choose to do so?
There are much more awful things in life than students not being able to manage their finances properly.
Healthcare is a tricky one. The NHS is shit, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

I think that degrees which are important for the progression of a country should be funded more favourably. I don't agree that a degree in David Beckham should get as much support as a degree in Chemical Engineering for example.

For example, if we need more doctors, then we should provide more funding for people to be doctors, as incentive.

Remember in the Cold War, the Americans thought they were technologically behind the Russians, so poured loads of money into engineering and research, giving monetary incentives for people to go into those areas.

But I do disagree with the government trying to get 50% of people into University.

But we need people getting skills from University, our country would quickly become third world otherwise (probably undergoing a serious Brain-Drain). If we don't get the right balance of people, we need to re-adjust that balance.