What does the Catholic Church and Paris Hilton have in common?

[No Limit]

So what happened? Did all the religious people ran away with their tail between their legs? I hope not.

Really?

Most of what you said falls under political science or psychology. But what I was talking about was how the universe was made and why. I think that could be answered if humans get their shit together.

 

[MJ12]

act like adults

Religion

​

 

[Krynn72]

Really?

How do the natural sciences explain the transition from structuralism to post-structuralism in the late 1960s France?

How do the natural sciences explain the difference between Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill's views of utilitarianism?

How do the natural sciences explain the different views that John Locke and Thomas Hobbes held on the "state of nature"?

How do the natural sciences explain how the critique against Impressionism led to the formation of Expressionism?

How do the natural sciences explain the evolution of Russian realist literature doing the second half of the 19th century?

I could go on, but you get my point.

I believe there is an explanation for all of those things, none of which would fall outside the realm of natural science. I'm not familiar enough with any of those areas to make an argument, but I cannot think of any reason why those might require something supernatural in order to have happened.

 

[Higlac]

How is a completely different story than why.

As for me, I've always pictured God as a slightly bored and lonely individual. He created humans in his image (read intellect and will) so that he might be loved by them and have it be genuine love, rather than a forced adoration.

EDIT: I guess I shouldn't leave this thread open without replying quickly.

 

[No Limit]

How is a completely different story than why.

As for me, I've always pictured God as a slightly bored and lonely individual. He created humans in his image (read intellect and will) so that he might be loved by them and have it be genuine love, rather than a forced adoration.

EDIT: I guess I shouldn't leave this thread open without replying quickly.

Third time I'm asking now. You said earlier you had evidance, can you post it?

 

[VirusType2]

I think Jesus had a mental disorder. Also too much moldy bread. Shit makes you hallucinate.

OH SHIT. Eat this bread, drink this wine? EH, EH?


Off topic: damn, and I thought I made this title up.

 

[Krynn72]

How is a completely different story than why.

Are you implying that everything has a purpose?

 

[Higlac]

Third time I'm asking now. You said earlier you had evidance, can you post it?

Nope, because every time I do that everyone acts like children

Oh, Krynn, I'm just implying that many people aren't satisfied with what seems to be an incomplete explanation from scientific sources.

 

[Krynn72]

Fair enough I suppose. Nothing other than a lie will satisfy those people then.

 

[No Limit]

Nope, because every time I do that everyone acts like children

Why do you care what other people act like if it's what you truly believe? It's the internet, you aren't actually worried about what people here think are you? I don't buy that excuse, if you believed something strongly you would want to defend it.

Post it, don't be a pussy.

Oh, Krynn, I'm just implying that many people aren't satisfied with what seems to be an incomplete explanation from scientific sources.

The picture science gives us is a lot more accurate and a lot more complete than any explainations the bible gave us.

 

[Higlac]

That's the thing though, there is no evidence to support that it is or is not a lie. While they believe the How, they want to know more, the Why.

 

[VirusType2]

Theists:

Science is too complicated for us to comprehend; we won't just blindly believe it!

God is too complicated for us to comprehend; we must blindly believe it!


The Bible says God created Earth in 7 days, and that's easier for us simpletons to comprehend.

 

[No Limit]

That's the thing though, there is no evidence to support that it is or is not a lie. While they believe the How, they want to know more, the Why.

So what you are saying is you have no evidance for any of your beliefs? It's all faith. Again, I'm not bashing you, I'm trying to establish what it is we are debating.

You also never answer my question on how old you think the universe is. Can you do that?

 

[CptStern]

As for me, I've always pictured God as a slightly bored and lonely individual. He created humans in his image (read intellect and will) so that he might be loved by them and have it be genuine love, rather than a forced adoration.

....... so why did he create everything else? why not just the solar system and leave it at that? there's bound to be intelligent life out there that looks nothing like us. why would god create them? if god is perfect how can he be "lonely" or "bored" ..that implies he's a slave to human emotions. how can some thing be omnipotent on the one hand yet prone to human frailties like boredom? Further; in comparison to an omnipotent being humans are less than ants. what could we possibly give such a being that would satisfy it's lonliness? really it all sounds silly doesnt it?

 

[Krynn72]

The only way someone can come up with an answer to "why" is if they just make one up. What are the chances that the subject in question even has a purpose, let alone has the purpose they thought up over all the other possible purposes there could be for its existence? Its so astronomically unlikely that anything we've ever come up with as a reason for "why" things happen is correct that I feel safe in assuming that everything we come up with is wrong, and thus nothing but a lie we tell ourselves and each other to make us feel better.

 

[VirusType2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

IMAGE: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Meteor.jpg

You might not understand it all or follow the internal links to learn more, but you could read over most of it in less time than you will spend at church on Sunday.

If you still want to worship the super friends, then at least you have made an informed decision.

Is there a creator? Who knows, but I don't see why he would want you to pray to him, or beg forgiveness for getting an erection or eating pork chops.

 

[Willsmith.fan]

Comedy gold should always be shared.

So, was it?

oh yea so funny, id like to see u say that to someone who was really raped. yea thats right. also can i please have my avatar back , i didnt do anything.

 

[Higlac]

Theists:

Science is too complicated for us to comprehend; we won't just blindly believe it!

God is too complicated for us to comprehend; we must blindly believe it!


The Bible says God created Earth in 7 days, and that's easier for us simpletons to comprehend.

Nah, more along the lines of the universe is too complicated for science to fully explain. Also, Genesis isn't literal, it's mostly symbolic, like a fable to explain life lessons.

So what you are saying is you have no evidance for any of your beliefs? It's all faith. Again, I'm not bashing you, I'm trying to establish what it is we are debating.

You also never answer my question on how old you think the universe is. Can you do that?

I thought that we were debating the reason why God (if he exists) created the universe and the Human race.

Fukken old, but at the same time, with the evidence brought up about multiple universes, then you never can know fully.

....... so why did he create everything else? why not just the solar system and leave it at that? there's bound to be intelligent life out there that looks nothing like us. why would god create them? if god is perfect how can he be "lonely" or "bored" ..that implies he's a slave to human emotions. how can some thing be omnipotent on the one hand yet prone to human frailties like boredom? Further; in comparison to an omnipotent being humans are less than ants. what could we possibly give such a being that would satisfy it's lonliness? really it all sounds silly doesnt it?

The thing is though, with the incredible coincidence that is life and the universe, we can't know until we find it. If God is infinitely complex why would he not have various emotions? Christ shed tears of blood before his crucifixion, and God showed his wrath with Sodom and Gomorrah, so why can't God be lonely?

The only way someone can come up with an answer to "why" is if they just make one up. What are the chances that the subject in question even has a purpose, let alone has the purpose they thought up over all the other possible purposes there could be for its existence? Its so astronomically unlikely that anything we've ever come up with as a reason for "why" things happen is correct that I feel safe in assuming that everything we come up with is wrong, and thus nothing but a lie we tell ourselves and each other to make us feel better.

Who's to say that the universe doesn't have a purpose, that everything just came together through astronomically low chances. What are the odds that carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous, hydrogen, and oxygen all came together randomly to form self-replicating molecules? Everything that we have discovered so far can't fully explain the origins of the universe and the creation of life. The chances that everything came together through chance are so low that an intelligent being seems more logical. There is just so much that science cannot, or has not explained, that it seems silly to me not to be open to other ideas. The difference in belief stems more from what people accept as evidence.

I have very personal reasons for my own belief (/indifference).

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

oh yea so funny, id like to see u say that to someone who was really raped. yea thats right. also can i please have my avatar back , i didnt do anything.

but you said you weren't? So you're right, I wouldn't say it to someone who had been. Now what was your point again?

and no, you can't have it back. You got an infraction. It'll come back when the infraction expires. Welcome to the new regime.

 

[Willsmith.fan]

so when does it expire

 

[flamingdts]

oh yea so funny, id like to see u say that to someone who was really raped. yea thats right. also can i please have my avatar back , i didnt do anything.

You a funny man.

Next time someone takes a cheap shot at you, throw one back.

The internet is a tough place, and crying wolf never helps. Not everyone is going to punish anyone for petty insults.

 

[No Limit]

I thought that we were debating the reason why God (if he exists) created the universe and the Human race.

We are debating why you believe in the bible. And I'm asking you if what you believe is based on evidance or if it is based on faith alone.

Fukken old, but at the same time, with the evidence brought up about multiple universes, then you never can know fully.

No doubt, but point is it's billions of years old. Glad you agree.

 

[No Limit]

so when does it expire

When you admit you were raped.

 

[Willsmith.fan]

well what if i was touched and i was just in denial. bet you wouldnt feel too good about that then
edit:im not admiting anything

 

[VirusType2]

Nah, more along the lines of the universe is too complicated for science to fully explain.

Um, we've got a great deal figured out so far, thanks for noticing. I guess the universe was too complicated for the people who wrote the Bible to understand too, that's why the Earth was flat.

FORGET YOU THEN, CHILD.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

well what if i was touched and i was just in denial. bet you wouldnt feel too good about that then

Why not? You'd be in denial.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

so when does it expire

May 29th. Bwaf.

 

[Willsmith.fan]

Thats a long time.
also AJ what are you talkin about

 

[Krynn72]

Who's to say that the universe doesn't have a purpose, that everything just came together through astronomically low chances. What are the odds that carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous, hydrogen, and oxygen all came together randomly to form self-replicating molecules? Everything that we have discovered so far can't fully explain the origins of the universe and the creation of life. The chances that everything came together through chance are so low that an intelligent being seems more logical. There is just so much that science cannot, or has not explained, that it seems silly to me not to be open to other ideas. The difference in belief stems more from what people accept as evidence.

This is not what I am arguing. I understand that we don't know how the universe was formed. I'm just saying that the chances of there being a purpose for it are incredibly small, and that odds are that nothing anyone has ever said is correct. Seriously, what are the chances that what a group of men thousands of years ago came up with the actual purpose of the universe's existence and that it is not any of the infinite other potential purposes? The odds are so unlikely that it simply is not worth subscribing to anything we've ever come up with because for all intents and purposes, nothing we say will ever be correct. Yet theists do, and they believe it so thoroughly that they govern their lives based on this belief that has such incredibly small chances of being true. Thats what I don't understand.

Now I think I have an idea as to where this discussion will head, and that someone will say something along the lines of "then why do you subscribe to the notion that there is no purpose and everything happened naturally? Is that not, by your own reasoning, just as unlikely?"

So which I say... "Hmm... I need to think on this."

*ponders*

 

[flamingdts]

well what if i was touched and i was just in denial. bet you wouldnt feel too good about that then
edit:im not admiting anything

First of all, I laughed my ass off.

Second of all, you weren't touched, so that's fine.

Third of all, was it consensual?

 

[Higlac]

Um, we've got a great deal figured out so far, thanks for noticing. I guess the universe was too complicated for the people who wrote the Bible to understand too, that's why the Earth was flat.

FORGET YOU THEN, CHILD.

Can you explain what exactly happened before the big bang, or what caused atoms to arrange into a molecule that can replicate itself? I'm not saying that we don't have a lot figured out, I'm just saying that we cannot know everything there is to know about the universe.

But I'm not sure about the flat Earth theory had its origins in Christianity.

We are debating why you believe in the bible. And I'm asking you if what you believe is based on evidance or if it is based on faith alone.

No doubt, but point is it's billions of years old. Glad you agree.

I have personal evidence, but most of what I believe is based in logic and reasoning rather than actual physical evidence.

Just for the record, I consider myself mostly agnostic, but I will defend Catholicism, simply because there's always that question of "What if God does exist?" I consider it better to live as if he did exist, it doesn't hurt to believe in God, religion provides a method for people to live what they believe to be a good life. Nobody can argue that the Catholic faith doesn't do good things for the world.

 

[No Limit]

I have personal evidence, but most of what I believe is based in logic and reasoning rather than actual physical evidence.

Just for the record, I consider myself mostly agnostic, but I will defend Catholicism, simply because there's always that question of "What if God does exist?" I consider it better to live as if he did exist, it doesn't hurt to believe in God, religion provides a method for people to live what they believe to be a good life. Nobody can argue that the Catholic faith doesn't do good things for the world.

What personal evidance? Why do you keep jumping around the issue. Just come out and tell us what that evidance is and we can keep discussing this.

 

[Krynn72]

No Limit, do you not have a spell checker in your browser?

Just for the record, I consider myself mostly agnostic, but I will defend Catholicism, simply because there's always that question of "What if God does exist?" I consider it better to live as if he did exist, it doesn't hurt to believe in God, religion provides a method for people to live what they believe to be a good life. Nobody can argue that the Catholic faith doesn't do good things for the world.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I simply do not undertand the reasoning behind the "better safe than sorry" approach to belief. Belief is not something you choose to have. You either believe in something or you don't. You can't say something like "I'm agnostic but I believe in god just to be safe." You're just pretending at that point, and if God is all knowing then he knows you're full of shit. Saying you believe in God, or defending his name or a religious institution dedicated to him doesn't mean you actually believe and won't fool Him into thinking you do.

Also, you must be new here if you think that nobody can argue that the church doesn't do good things.

 

[CptStern]

The thing is though, with the incredible coincidence that is life and the universe, we can't know until we find it.

all signs point to the fact that life is quite common in the universe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

but you avoided the question. why would god create anything outside of our solar system if he made man "in his image"? obviously in this scenario mankind has purpose (so god isnt "lonely") ..what purpose do alien lifeforms serve? or alien planets or stars or quasars etc ..why not just have the solar system if we're the focus of god's attention

If God is infinitely complex why would he not have various emotions? Christ shed tears of blood before his crucifixion, and God showed his wrath with Sodom and Gomorrah, so why can't God be lonely?

because it makes absolutely no sense? why would god get angry? if he's all knowing ("I am the alpha and omega") wouldnt he know beforehand that the citizens of sodom and gommorah were heading down the road to sin? his anger implies he didnt know beforehand which kinda calls into question his divinity. at least jebus was god made flesh so he could have human emotions but god is as far above mankind as is possible so why would he share any of their traits? it just seems like silly reasoning

Who's to say that the universe doesn't have a purpose,

as a backdrop to our solar system and humanity in genneral? if god made us in his image there's really no need for any other life form out there. if we're the sole focus; supported by your notion that hemade this all for us, then it stands to reason that everything else in the universe is needless decoration

that everything just came together through astronomically low chances. What are the odds that carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous, hydrogen, and oxygen all came together randomly to form self-replicating molecules? Everything that we have discovered so far can't fully explain the origins of the universe and the creation of life.

so lets revert to an explanation that makes even less sense and has no validity what so ever: christian creationism?

The chances that everything came together through chance are so low that an intelligent being seems more logical. There is just so much that science cannot, or has not explained, that it seems silly to me not to be open to other ideas. The difference in belief stems more from what people accept as evidence.

you question science by questioning it's limits and our understanding of it yet in the same breath you give credence to fanciful tales of god's direct involvement with mankind. this makes no logical sense whatsoever. it's like you're favouring the lthing that makes the least amount of sense on the off chance that some of it might by "unknown" ..yet you're ok with the "unknown" aspect of god in terms of explaining the universe

the level of self delusion is stifling imho

I have very personal reasons for my own belief (/indifference).

you dont care that science makes more sense than fanciful stories that make zero sense ...I wouldnt call that being indifferent

 

[Higlac]

What personal evidance? Why do you keep jumping around the issue. Just come out and tell us what that evidance is and we can keep discussing this.

When my brother was 5 years old doctors said he would never talk even with extensive speech therapy. We still sent him and prayed every day that he would learn. Now he won't shut up.

It's not something I can present to you as legitimate evidence, but science told us one thing and what happened is completely different. This is why I would rather remain in the realms of theory and philosophy.

 

[CptStern]

When my brother was 5 years old doctors said he would never talk even with extensive speech therapy. We still sent him and prayed every day that he would learn. Now he won't shut up.

it's a miracle!!!!

damn I'd be really pissed at your family if I were the speech therapist who taught your brother how to speak, god got all the credit for doing absolutely nothing

fyi it's quite common for kids < 5 to have speech problems. my daughter has problems saying the letter "s" but she's getting better PROOF OF GOD RIGHT THERE

It's not something I can present to you as legitimate evidence, but science told us one thing and what happened is completely different. This is why I would rather remain in the realms of theory and philosophy.

I call BS. science said he'd never speak again? what did he have? missing vocal chord syndrome? science couldnt cure him? but it did; he went to speech therapy ..but it wasnt science it WAS GOD

this is exactly why non religious people laugh at christians. everything is a miracle! look my french fry looks like jesus, it's a MIRACLE

 

[Solaris]

When my brother was 5 years old doctors said he would never talk even with extensive speech therapy. We still sent him and prayed every day that he would learn. Now he won't shut up.

It's not something I can present to you as legitimate evidence, but science told us one thing and what happened is completely different. This is why I would rather remain in the realms of theory and philosophy.

A doctor cannot represent Science as a methodology.

The rational way to approach your reasoning is to say the Doctor misdiagnosed your brother. But he was wrong, and by going to other Scientists he was cured.

Any you're not in the realm of theory and philosophy. You're in the realm of huge, illogical and bizarre ideas with no evidence to support them.

 

[Krynn72]

When my brother was 5 years old doctors said he would never talk even with extensive speech therapy. We still sent him and prayed every day that he would learn. Now he won't shut up.

I lol'd. I just imagined a little kid miraculously speaking for the first time after years of being unable, and his brother going "Oh my god, shut the **** up already. Jesus!"

It's not something I can present to you as legitimate evidence, but science told us one thing and what happened is completely different. This is why I would rather remain in the realms of theory and philosophy.

I'm sorry, but I simply do not think that is a viable reason to believe. There are so many things wrong with that conclusion.

1. Its not science that told you, its humans. Humans are notoriously unreliable when it comes to making conclusions and reading evidence.

2. It shows a clear lack of understanding about the basic ideas of probability. If someone is given a 5% chance of ever speaking again, that means 5 times out of 100 he will be able to speak again. Thats not a very unlikely scenario, and its certainly not a miraculous event when it does happen.

3. Doctors are emotional people. A lot of times they simply prefer to err on the side of caution, and not give people what they believe is false hope. Your doctor may have exaggerated the odds in order to prevent you and your family from being emotionally wrought when you spend all this effort and still see no results. It may not be the right thing to do, but again, hes only human.

4. He went to speech therapy and that helped him be able to speak again. Speech therapy is based on science.

Also, as I never pass up a chance to promote Tim Minchin, watch this with regard to your comment about how we don't understand the universe, and how my argument that something we humans make up as explanations are so unlikely to be true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DXl68NF_uI

 

[No Limit]

When my brother was 5 years old doctors said he would never talk even with extensive speech therapy. We still sent him and prayed every day that he would learn. Now he won't shut up.

It's not something I can present to you as legitimate evidence, but science told us one thing and what happened is completely different. This is why I would rather remain in the realms of theory and philosophy.

So all those people that get cancer and pray really really hard but die anyway died because they didn't pray hard enough? What's so special about your brother?

 

[RidleyRockets]

Can you explain what exactly happened before the big bang,

No one can, saying a god did it is just making shit up.

or what caused atoms to arrange into a molecule that can replicate itself?

Self replication is a property of matter in certain conditions.

I'm not saying that we don't have a lot figured out, I'm just saying that we cannot know everything there is to know about the universe.

You're making a positive statement here that you cannot back up. You're alluding to the god of the gaps argument here, you find something that has no current explanation and crowbar god into there. This explains nothing.

If you suggest god is behind something you have to demonstrate how.

But I'm not sure about the flat Earth theory had its origins in Christianity.
I have personal evidence, but most of what I believe is based in logic and reasoning rather than actual physical evidence.

Show your logic then.

Just for the record, I consider myself mostly agnostic, but I will defend Catholicism, simply because there's always that question of "What if God does exist?"

Then you must defend every god ever worshiped or imagined. All of them, the greek gods, the african tribal gods, the hindu gods the norse gods. After all there is the question what if they exist right?

I consider it better to live as if he did exist

This is just wishful thinking then and has no influence on reality.

it doesn't hurt to believe in God,

Jihad.

religion provides a method for people to live what they believe to be a good life.

Some peoples idea of a good life involves flying planes into buildings. Unfortunately their actions were theologically valid according to their holy book.

Nobody can argue that the Catholic faith doesn't do good things for the world.

You don't need crazy theology to do good things. You do need crazy theology to spread aids through africa because condoms make god angry.