What is going on in Great Britain(for reals this time)

[burner69]

Yeah Burner, let's legalise skag In fairness, you could tax it very well. That means more money for the NHS, that they can then spend on vast shipments of methodone when people decide they want to quit

You could tax it 100%, and still it'd be many times cheaper than it is now. Legalising it would also make it safer, remove some users fears about going and getting treatment for their addiction, and get rid of skanky skag dealers, simultaneously removing a lot of money out of real criminals pockets.

As it stands that dosen't happen. If you're caught in possession of heroin that's 7 years, and when you come out of jail then you're not gunna be able to get a job, get depressed, are quite likely to go straight back on the stuff, and end up robbing people all over again. The law sucks the big one when it comes to drugs, there's no evidence to show that it works, and every bit of evidence to show it ISN'T working.

In 1970 there were 9000 convictions or cautions for drug offences and 15% of young people had used an illegal drug. In 1995 the figures were 94 000 and 45%. Prohibition doesn't work.

 

[burner69]

Well, you all know my position. Have the lot of them rendered down into inexpensive fuel. Not exactly enviromentally friendly, but just include the eco-activists in the revolutionary power program and no one will notice, or, more accurately, dare to comment.

Okaaaay. You talking about drunken rebels? Drug users? What?

You are mad. Maaaaaaad I say.

 

[el Chi]

F*ck. Wrong thread.

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

Why are Britains so afraid of letting law abidding Citizens have weapons?


Serious question, not sarcastic.... Answer please.

 

[Edcrab]

We're not. We're worried of the resultant rules allowing the usual scum getting hold of them, or worse, of perfectly ordinary people getting sucked into gun culture.

And yes, I am mad. That's why you love me.

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

We're not. We're worried of the resultant rules allowing the usual scum getting hold of them, or worse, of perfectly ordinary people getting sucked into gun culture.

And yes, I am mad. That's why you love me.

If your answer is that of the average UK'r I'm sad for you....

 

[Edcrab]

Well, I'm sad for America. They've got an insanely high level of gun crime over there, and guess what? They've got lax gun laws.

The UK, on the other hand, just have to worry about ineffectual liberals, insane fascists, rampant binge drinking and general ignorance. Oh, and knife attacks and theft. And I just sit here talking about it instead of changing things, which is the British way.

 

[burner69]

Why are Britains so afraid of letting law abidding Citizens have weapons?


Serious question, not sarcastic.... Answer please.

Define law abiding citizen.
Many people are in prison because of a single crime, up until that moment they were law abiding citizens.

And why the hell do we need guns? Seriously? It's like giving every one a kilo of smack and saying it's just incase you need to mong out for a bit. People are going to use it who wouldn't normally, and people are going to get hurt or killed as a result.

Also you're forgetting that there are many kinds of criminals. Big time, mid-level, and petty. Once you make it legal to buy guns petty shop lifters could get their hands on a glock and increase the chance of their next shop handing over the contents of the till - and at the same time increasing the chance of the shop keeper getting shot. Or if the law abiding shop keeper has himself a pistol under the counter, shooting the kid.

Just look at the stats with realtion to the US, and other countries that don't let you buy guns, then tell me you don't see a problem with legalising guns.

Incidently Ed, I started writing a novel set in Cumbria. I've never been, but I liked the name so I set it there. So there. And it was about a bloke going a bit mad... hmmm... and yeah I love you - you don't own guns.

 

[CptStern]

it seems largely endemic of americans ..nowhere else do people worship the gun culture so fervently

 

[Edcrab]

Yes, I once wrote a story set in Armenia merely because it sounded interesting. It's a rarity for me to write something outside of the realms of fantasy/sci-fi, so typically I chose a place that sounds, to me, like somewhere from Krynn or Pern. Kudos to you, my fellow writing-type

*ahem* Going back to the actual discussion: I can't help but be worried by the increasingly prevailing attitude that widespread firearm ownership has no downside. It's as if many of the pro-gun activists fail to see the slightest drawback in the proliferation of weaponry. Don't get me wrong, I still maintain that more police officers should be armed (meh to the risks, criminals deserve to be shot*), I just don't think that legalised firearms are the best thing for the general public.

On that note, goodnight, it's 4:15 am and even the insane need sleep.

*May or may not be true.

 

[el Chi]

You could tax it 100%, and still it'd be many times cheaper than it is now. Legalising it would also make it safer, remove some users fears about going and getting treatment for their addiction, and get rid of skanky skag dealers, simultaneously removing a lot of money out of real criminals pockets.

I agree with you that ending prohibition would cut out problems like the disgusting skag-peddlers - the way they do their best to keep people hooked, the way they probably don't give two shits about their clients, the way they don't care too much about the quality of their drugs - but I'm not so sure legalising the substance is the answer.
I think prostitution should be legalised for similar reasons, though. That would cut out a lot of problems. But that's another topic altogether.

As it stands that dosen't happen. If you're caught in possession of heroin that's 7 years, and when you come out of jail then you're not gunna be able to get a job, get depressed, are quite likely to go straight back on the stuff, and end up robbing people all over again. The law sucks the big one when it comes to drugs, there's no evidence to show that it works, and every bit of evidence to show it ISN'T working.

I think after 7 years without it, you've gone through cold turkey, you've gone a long time without it and there's every possibility that it's rehabilitated you. Of course with some people that's not the case, but then I don't really see how legalising heroin would help that.

In 1970 there were 9000 convictions or cautions for drug offences and 15% of young people had used an illegal drug. In 1995 the figures were 94 000 and 45%. Prohibition doesn't work.

That seems to ignore one or two things. It doesn't specify what illegal drugs these young people had tried. Yes this is important because we were discussing heroin - a far cry from dope. I'd be perfectly willing to accept that 45% of young people had tried dope and, depending on how old "young" stretches, other drugs like ecstacy. But not heroin. Perhaps ending the prohibition on cannabis might not be a bad thing, but are you seriously suggesting that heroin should be legal? One of the most dangerously addictive drugs? I just think that's a bit too far.
Another thing is that, through the late '60s and '70s, society's attitude towards drugs and drugs usage changed a lot, what with the hippie revolution - that era's young people are today's adults and so have somewhat more liberal views on drugs compared to the adults of that era. Plus a lot of new substances were dicovered/invented around then, so I'd say it was pretty much inevitable that drug consumption would be on the rise.

I usually agree with much of what you say Burner, and I generally respect your political stances, but on this one I'm really not sure I can see where you're coming from. It's not that your entire argument is without veracity, but I don't think it would be wise to release this stuff to the general populous. Sure, it has a stigma that would keep a lot of people away, but there are also a lot of people who would be very curious and who have weak will when it comes to abstaining from things that aren't exactly good for them. I should know, I am one of those people.

 

[burner69]

The stats were for all illegal drugs. Makes the point though, arresting people dosen't stop people taking drugs.

Yeah, I think heroin should be legal. You shouldn't be able to just buy it though. If you're on heroin and hooked then you need to go to a doctor, and get a note saying that yes, you're addicted. Take said note to the pharmacy where you show them your doc's note and pay up, you go to a back room - that is monitored by health experts, get given a clean needle, get smacked up. I believe in freedom to do with your body what you want, if people want to take heroin, let them. Each time they come in you could offer them that drug that they use to get you off smack instead, at a cheaper price. No pushy tactics, just asking.

I used to be very skeptical about legalisation, but when you start looking into it you see the closer you get to it, the better off everyone gets. Otherwise innocent people not being locked up, saving a £1bn on fighting the drugs 'problem', drugs no longer carrying the danger of being impure, reliable drugs information, and perhaps, just perhaps, a reduction in the number of users. I'm serious, look at Hollands drug figures.

With regards locking heroin users up for 7 years, regardless of whether they'd get off the stuff or not, don't you think it's totally f**ked up? I mean, murderers get less prison time than that. Is jacking up worse than stabbing somebody to death? Simple answer... no.

And true, people who might not have tried drugs before might try them if they were legalised. But seriously, when you look into it drugs are very much overhyped in the bad department, they cause problems, no doubt (although most problems are caused by them being illegal) but no more than alcohol or cigarettes - infact probably a lot less.

Just a question el Chi, cuz I'm very interested. Do you take drugs now? If so, what? And you're saying you'd try some stuff if it were legal? If so, what?

Very interested in the answer.

 

[Locust]

You should do some research on metanphetamine. according to police, this stuff is worse than any drug that they have ever seen and it is spreading like wildfire through America. This stuff is an epidemic.

 

[Venmoch]

The law's screwed.
If they give a crap about the number of people dying, and ban weed, e, etc, based on the 'danger' they should examine this

UK drug death figures: deaths per annum
Alcohol[1] 4,235
Tobacco[1] 120,000
The Herb[1,2] 1
LSD[1] 0
Peanuts[3] 7
Viagra[3] 7
Ecstasy[1] 4


[1] Hansard figures for 1995.
[2] Death caused by inhaling vomit [Lord's Hansard report on medicinal cannabis]
[3] BBC news

Dude? Death by Viagra? Thats either got to bite the big one or be a really really good way to die.

 

[kirovman]

Not many addicts know it, but laxatives are a great substitute for Heroine. It's even better than medical methadone.

 

[burner69]

Dude? Death by Viagra? Thats either got to bite the big one or be a really really good way to die.

Ner, death after popping two pills, two viagras, and a pack of peanuts.

You'd be dancing around with a hard on for seven hours, then dehydrate after eating the peanuts. Kablam! Wipe out with a grin on your face.

Kirov, btw, considering Heroin is supposed to make everything in the world seem perfect, make you feel, almost literally, like a God, I somehow doubt addicts will easily be able to jump off that feeling onto the "I can poo much easier" benefit of laxatives. Just a thought.

 

[burner69]

You should do some research on metanphetamine. according to police, this stuff is worse than any drug that they have ever seen and it is spreading like wildfire through America. This stuff is an epidemic.

They said the same about a lot of drugs, and it simply wasn't true.

Sounds very similar to the chemical combi in MDMA, or e.

Just to put things in context, when weed first immerged in the US they said it was the 'worst' drug, that it quickly led to irreversible madness for everyone who smoked it, that it caused people to rape and murder, and that when high you had absolutley no control over anything. The police aren't the best source for unbias drugs info. But I'm looking into it, can't find much though.

 

[el Chi]

The stats were for all illegal drugs. Makes the point though, arresting people dosen't stop people taking drugs.
With regards locking heroin users up for 7 years, regardless of whether they'd get off the stuff or not, don't you think it's totally f**ked up? I mean, murderers get less prison time than that. Is jacking up worse than stabbing somebody to death? Simple answer... no.

You're right, arresting people doesn't stop drug abuse. I also agree that seven years just for possession seems more than a little bit harsh.

Yeah, I think heroin should be legal. You shouldn't be able to just buy it though. If you're on heroin and hooked then you need to go to a doctor, and get a note saying that yes, you're addicted. Take said note to the pharmacy where you show them your doc's note and pay up, you go to a back room - that is monitored by health experts, get given a clean needle, get smacked up. I believe in freedom to do with your body what you want, if people want to take heroin, let them. Each time they come in you could offer them that drug that they use to get you off smack instead, at a cheaper price. No pushy tactics, just asking.

How do you prove you're an addict? And besides, would you say that that could be used as an initiative to whittle down the number of users?
I also believe, to an extent, that it's your body, your choice. Howver, realistically the government can't be seen to be endorsing heroin usage, let alone supplying it. There's enough objection to legalising dope!

Just a question el Chi, cuz I'm very interested. Do you take drugs now? If so, what? And you're saying you'd try some stuff if it were legal? If so, what?
Very interested in the answer.

I don't take drugs now. I don't have a problem with people that do, though. I don't smoke dope because I really don't get on well with it - it doesn't make me feel that great, then my throat feels constricted and I've freaked out pretty badly before. Personally, it's not for me.
I'd be very interested to try ecstacy, 'shrooms, acid and, with a lot of trepidation, heroin. However, I'm epileptic and on anti-convulsant medication and I have no idea how the chemical mixture in my brain - potentially volatile at the best of times - would interact with these substances. Nor do I have any particular desire to put it to the test. An epileptic seizure mixed with a bad reaction to ecstacy doesn't sound like a whole heap of fun, to be honest.
Like I said, I generally have no real problems with people who do choose to do drugs. They just aren't for me, not at this point in my life, at least.

 

[burner69]

You're right, arresting people doesn't stop drug abuse. I also agree that seven years just for possession seems more than a little bit harsh.

Oh yes.

How do you prove you're an addict? And besides, would you say that that could be used as an initiative to whittle down the number of users?
I also believe, to an extent, that it's your body, your choice. Howver, realistically the government can't be seen to be endorsing heroin usage, let alone supplying it. There's enough objection to legalising dope!

Well you wouldn't say the government endorses alcohol would you? There's a difference, I feel, between legalising, and endorsing. Put out some half decent drugs information to kids, having warnings on all drugs sold, and not advertising them, would hardly be endorsing.

I don't take drugs now. I don't have a problem with people that do, though. I don't smoke dope because I really don't get on well with it - it doesn't make me feel that great, then my throat feels constricted and I've freaked out pretty badly before. Personally, it's not for me.
I'd be very interested to try ecstacy, 'shrooms, acid and, with a lot of trepidation, heroin. However, I'm epileptic and on anti-convulsant medication and I have no idea how the chemical mixture in my brain - potentially volatile at the best of times - would interact with these substances. Nor do I have any particular desire to put it to the test. An epileptic seizure mixed with a bad reaction to ecstacy doesn't sound like a whole heap of fun, to be honest.

It pains me to say this buddy, but yeah, keep away from e's - they can trigger epileptic fits. Shrooms however... hehe.

Like I said, I generally have no real problems with people who do choose to do drugs. They just aren't for me, not at this point in my life, at least.

It's refreshing to speak to people who don't do drugs, but don't percieve the whole notion as evil or immoral or whatever. It's one of the downsides to taking drugs, you get some idiots spewing BS at you and think they're totally perfect because they've never come up in a club, and experienced a sensation better than sex because of a song they're listening to.... sorry... I get carried away.

For some decent drugs info, check www.urban75.net out, its about as honest as you'll get.

 

[el Chi]

Well you wouldn't say the government endorses alcohol would you? There's a difference, I feel, between legalising, and endorsing. Put out some half decent drugs information to kids, having warnings on all drugs sold, and not advertising them, would hardly be endorsing.

Sure, there's a difference, but many would not see it like that; that was my point.
Education is of course the best prevention; if not prevention of use, then the prevention of misuse (if you see what I mean). There needs to be much better drugs and sex education in schools in general. It's getting better for sex education, but drugs are still more of a taboo subject.

It pains me to say this buddy, but yeah, keep away from e's - they can trigger epileptic fits. Shrooms however... hehe.

Yeah I kinda figured that Technically I'm not supposed to drink too much alcohol or caffeine but, well, that's never stopped me. But I think there could be some horrible complications with my medication and MDMA or other drugs (I wouldn't be altogether surprised if my less than enjoyable reactions to weed have been in some way related to my condition). Not to mention the potential confusion when it comes to first aid (is he having a seizure or a bad reaction? Or both?) It's something I'd be interested to try at some point down the road, but not for the next four-five years at least. By which time I'll be about 24 <Shudders>

It's refreshing to speak to people who don't do drugs, but don't percieve the whole notion as evil or immoral or whatever. It's one of the downsides to taking drugs, you get some idiots spewing BS at you and think they're totally perfect because they've never come up in a club, and experienced a sensation better than sex because of a song they're listening to.... sorry... I get carried away.

For some decent drugs info, check www.urban75.net out, its about as honest as you'll get.

I'm glad to have refreshed you! Because I choose not to do drugs, doesn't really give me the right to get sanctimonious about the issue. I choose not to smoke, and I don't really have a proper go at my smoker friends. Maybe the odd josh every now and again, but I'd never heckle someone for it, that's quite rude.
If I felt someone's quality of life was being debilitated by their drug use, then I'd probably intervene, but then that's different to getting on your high horse.
Ironically, I'm sort of getting on my horse about other people getting on theirs. Such is the nature of "informed" debate

Just as an aside - I like how this discussion has gone from crime and permissable defence, to gun crime, to drug abuse; all within the UK. It's a nice flow and evolution to the thread that most threads don't get. Most get stuck in an impenetrable rut and make baby Jesus cry.

 

[burner69]

Sure, there's a difference, but many would not see it like that; that was my point.
Education is of course the best prevention; if not prevention of use, then the prevention of misuse (if you see what I mean). There needs to be much better drugs and sex education in schools in general. It's getting better for sex education, but drugs are still more of a taboo subject.

Point accepted.
Oh yes, the education in schools with regards drugs is pathetic, and dangerous. See the case of Leah Betts

Yeah I kinda figured that Technically I'm not supposed to drink too much alcohol or caffeine but, well, that's never stopped me. But I think there could be some horrible complications with my medication and MDMA or other drugs (I wouldn't be altogether surprised if my less than enjoyable reactions to weed have been in some way related to my condition). Not to mention the potential confusion when it comes to first aid (is he having a seizure or a bad reaction? Or both?) It's something I'd be interested to try at some point down the road, but not for the next four-five years at least. By which time I'll be about 24 <Shudders>

Let me know how it goes.

I'm glad to have refreshed you! Because I choose not to do drugs, doesn't really give me the right to get sanctimonious about the issue. I choose not to smoke, and I don't really have a proper go at my smoker friends. Maybe the odd josh every now and again, but I'd never heckle someone for it, that's quite rude.
If I felt someone's quality of life was being debilitated by their drug use, then I'd probably intervene, but then that's different to getting on your high horse.
Ironically, I'm sort of getting on my horse about other people getting on theirs. Such is the nature of "informed" debate

I think pretty much the same as you, 'cept I do drugs. I don't knock people for doing gear I won't touch, but when they start going too far I have a word in their ear.
Ha! It's really quite funny that I do drugs. I used to do anti-drugs campaigns with my school, and used to be really against it. But being cynical as I am, I realised the only bad points we were putting out about drugs were a bit OTT, or based around the problems arising from it being illegal. Had a bit of a look and realised pot wasn't that bad, so I tried it, liked it. Then more recently I've done a sh*t load of research into a lot of drugs, and always check drugscope before trying something new. Set myself limits (like four pills a month) and stick to um. The idea that as soon as you start taking drugs you're a waste of space criminal who's on a spiralling road down to oblivian really pis*es me off.

Just as an aside - I like how this discussion has gone from crime and permissable defence, to gun crime, to drug abuse; all within the UK. It's a nice flow and evolution to the thread that most threads don't get. Most get stuck in an impenetrable rut and make baby Jesus cry.

Yeah, haha! Guess drugs aren'tso bad afterall

 

[Edcrab]

Drugs make baby Jesus cry. Presumably he's allergic.

It may surprise those who know for my homicidal tendencies and hardline stance, but I don't really hold drug use against people. But, in the same way that I have very little sympathy for alcoholics that pulverise their livers or smokers that sear their lungs, I can't really empathise with users who take drugs to excess and happily embrace the stereotype of the "worthless junkie".

Can't help but recall the man who blew £60,000 of lottery winnings on prosititutes and crack. What a bloody waste.

 

[burner69]

Drugs make baby Jesus cry. Presumably he's allergic.

It may surprise those who know for my homicidal tendencies and hardline stance, but I don't really hold drug use against people. But, in the same way that I have very little sympathy for alcoholics that pulverise their livers or smokers that sear their lungs, I can't really empathise with users who take drugs to excess and happily embrace the stereotype of the "worthless junkie".

Can't help but recall the man who blew £60,000 of lottery winnings on prosititutes and crack. What a bloody waste.

Apparently drugs may have had a lot to do with some of JC's miracles, or so I'm told. There were hallucinagenic fungi on some grain growing around the area, around that time, and have many times in the past caused widespread trips. Like if a crop got contaminated and brought by a town market then basicaly the whole town would just trip out for a few days. Some guys reckon that's one possible explaination for JC's walking on water antics.

Hey, where were you two for our other drug discussions? We had some guy calling all drug use as being for the "weak minded" and that there is no reason whatsoever for taking drugs, exept that your a loser
I too am of the thinking that everything is bad if done excessively, but as long as you know what you're taking, and control your habit you're no more likely to get messed up than anyone else.

Yeah, that lotto lout was a chav pr*ck, you win millions you don't mince around in burberry with cheap gold necklaces on doing masses of coke. Idiot. Hate chavs.

 

[kirovman]

If it wasn't for the pretty tax gold coins, I'm sure the government would illegalise (is that a word?) alcohol.
Yes most people use it responsibly, as a social situation lubricator (although more recently it has just been ingrianed in the culture that it's cool to get drunk out of your mind), but even when less than 10% don't use it sensibly it's very noticable.

I think if you can use something sensibly or responsibly you should not be persecuted for it. If you reduce other people's quality of life whether it be through alcohol or an illegal drug, you should feel the weight of the law (a mild case would be shouting in the street drunk 2am, major case would be far worse). Also being responsible means the drug in question does not become a major part of life. I don't like the mindset "I can't wait to get drunk/stoned/skagged up for the night"
I believe the state of drunkeness or stonedness should just be coincidental with a good night, not a measure of how great it was.

However I don't think heroin is going to be used responsibly by most people taking it, even if it was legal. You'd have to be very rich to support that habit.

Just my thoughts.

 

[burner69]

If it wasn't for the pretty tax gold coins, I'm sure the government would illegalise (is that a word?) alcohol.
Yes most people use it responsibly, as a social situation lubricator (although more recently it has just been ingrianed in the culture that it's cool to get drunk out of your mind), but even when less than 10% don't use it sensibly it's very noticable.

Quite probably true. I think they should up the tax on beer nowadays anyway, a lot of damage gets done by heavy drinkers, both to themselves, and others.

I think if you can use something sensibly or responsibly you should not be persecuted for it. If you reduce other people's quality of life whether it be through alcohol or an illegal drug, you should feel the weight of the law (a mild case would be shouting in the street drunk 2am, major case would be far worse). Also being responsible means the drug in question does not become a major part of life. I don't like the mindset "I can't wait to get drunk/stoned/skagged up for the night"

Do you think, then, that you should be persecuted for not being able to wait to get p*ssed, get stoned etc?

I believe the state of drunkeness or stonedness should just be coincidental with a good night, not a measure of how great it was.

I think there's a link between certain drugs and quality of nights that you can't avoid. For example, with beer you can get drunk but that will only emphasise certain aspects of your evening. If you're feeling down, or happy, those emotions will tend to be enchanced through alcohol.
With drugs like MDMA though, taking it increases the level of happy chemical in your brain, put simply, most of the time you'd be hard pressed to have a bad night on e (not that it's impossible). There's very little coinicdence with having a good night with some drugs.

However I don't think heroin is going to be used responsibly by most people taking it, even if it was legal. You'd have to be very rich to support that habit.

Just my thoughts.

Or a thief. Which is a shame (see me blabbering on about heroin prices in earlier posts).
I have heard, however, that out of the 8000 heroin users in the UK only 1% take it daily. While I don't want to condone heroin use at all, what I am saying is, once again, the publics perception on drug use is often greatly distorted.
Because really, it's a damn shame you can't sit in a coffee shop getting high with some friends or family - it's so sociable! And don't get me started what a great bonding, emotional, spiritual experience a night in a club on pills is like.

It's like I always think when I'm doing any of the above; why the hell is this illegal? I mean, seriously.