Wheres the originality?

You don't think so? Check out the spectator mode on IOC, i say it's damn original:

the spectator
In Ironman Offroad Championships it's not ALL about upgrading and racing, if you fail to qualify for the next race you join the spectators.. as a spectator the fun starts: you can assist your fellow teammates by throwing stuff on the track to obstruct the other team, drop nitro's, mines, jumps, oil, etc.

The MOD will be as close to the original game as possible. Random money spawn, random nitro spawn etc. etc. BUT, if we want a track to be a little more spectacular, we will ofcoarse add bigger jumps and bigger obstructions.

As a spectator you can even place mines or TNT, and thus destroy the other cars, on the other hand, you can help your teammates
by putting flags on mines you've discoverd, maybe drop some nitro's for him to use or helping the poor fella back on 4 wheels! (these are just examples)
 
Yes yes, of course parts of it can be original, but the MOD isnt. You say it yourself, "The MOD will be as close to the original game as possible.".

You wouldnt make a game containing all CS weapons and models (newly modelled of course with higher polycounts), make copied levels but add a weapon called the flaming wheel (set a wheel on fire and roll it down the street) and possibly having a camera team (third side) of 3 people that go around and film/interview soldiers ingame, then go around and proclaim the most original and unique MOD of all times, would you?
 
But its not just originality. For example i could plan and make a mod which involves the player riding around on gigantic penguin-shaped pink marshmallows, looking for turnips and eggs to fight. Thats original, but it would get boring quickly. We need something that is original and engaging.
 
I just thought of something...

These mods/games that people claim to be 'unoriginal' are actually simulating events or concepts. Just like a Flight Simulator is simulating flying in an aircraft and would be considered 'unoriginal' by some people's standards. Well, these war mods are simulating their respective war to a degree.

So stop calling them unoriginal! They are just simulating real-life occurances.
 
Everything has to do with the computers themselves. For example, the liquid physics could be done... But no one would have the computer to show it (we'll probably need at least 5 times as fast computers). The characters are also possible... But only nearly with modern CPUs, and out of the question for the graphics card to show them. Map size too, having a large map is quite possible today. But actually loading it? Like 20 minutes load time.
Click to expand...

Actually if source supports meta-balls (that caan be bound to particles) and particles that can have the abuility to atract one another, then you could have water physics at a relativly cheap cost to the cpu.
 
After reading such a long post I felt that I just had to reply and make it all new again, and a bit longer... Your welcome in advance.

We are proud to have the most ambitious and one of the most un-original mods to come (save some conceptual future scenarios, but still I'm sure our future war ideas have been done before in this or that game.)

Slugs & Steel: A Half-Life 2 Modification

Well the mod itself is somewhat unique (as no one has dared try it yet, because it is just too big.) But the scenarios and gameplay are not.

We are going for ultra-realistic gameplay (meaning fast paced, fluid movement, lots of gore, loud and dynamic sounds, lots of things happening at once, etc.; for some reason many "realistic" games seem to contridict what I personally have experienced as "real life") spanning over any "realistic" scenario we feel is important in the history of mano-a-mano projectile combat. The release will contain scenarios including the old west, the mob, WWII, the near future, and more. Eventually we will have tons of scenarios (released in scenario packs) including the american revolution, midievil, far future, middle east, WWI, and so on, and so on until we are finished...

In short, we want to rip off tons of history, change it a little so it plays well, and steal all the gameplay we can from real life. We will also copy things from other games that make them great games, and not do things that ruined what could have been great games. We will add some conceptual stuff and play it off like it's new, but I'm sure if you search out there long enough you can find characters and stories and sounds, etc. that are similar to anything we will claim to be "original."

So in the days of Dr. Pepper telling me to be original and an individual. I say F*** all these people who think their sooo original. We WILL BE the most un-original mod (and in some weird way I feel this will make us "one-of-a-kind" and one of the most unique? Something is soo terribly twisted about the world we have made/commercialized...) and a damn good one at that.

that's my plug and my two cents...

--Ephesus
www.slugsandsteel.com
Lead Design
 
Originally posted by ephesus
After reading such a long post I felt that I just had to reply and make it all new again, and a bit longer... Your welcome in advance.

We are proud to have the most ambitious and one of the most un-original mods to come (save some conceptual future scenarios, but still I'm sure our future war ideas have been done before in this or that game.)

.Slugs & Steel: A Half-Life 2 Modification

Well the mod itself is original (as no one has dared try it yet, because it is just too big.) But the scenarios are not.

We are going for ultra-realistic gameplay (meaning fast paced, fluid movement, lots of gore, loud and dynamic sounds, lots of thing happening at once, etc.; for some reason "realistic games seem to contridict what I personally have experienced as "real life") spanning over any "realistic" scenario we feel as important in the history of mano-a-mano projectile combat. The release will contain scenarios including the old west, the mob, WWII, the near future, and more. Eventually we will have tons of scenarios (released in scenario packs) including the american revolution, midievil, far future, middle east, WWI, and so on, and so on until we are finished...

In short, we want to rip off tons of history, change it a little so it plays better, and steal all the gameplay we can from real life. We will also copy things from other games that make them great games, and not do thing that ruined what could have been great games. We will add some conceptual stuff and play it off like it's new, but I'm sure if you search out there long enough you can find characters and stories and sounds, etc. that are similar to anything we will claim to be "original."

So in the days of Dr. Pepper telling me to be original and an individual. I say F*** all these people who think their sooo original. We WILL BE the most un-original mod (and in some weird way I feel this will make us "one-of-a-kind" and one of the most unique? Something is soo terribly twisted about the world we have made/commercialized...)

that's my plug and my two cents...

--Ephesus
www.slugsandsteel.com
Lead Design
Click to expand...

Time Splitters 1/2 did that :) (You got to play the game in several diffrent time epochs)
 
Sweet, we are therfore 97% un-original (we'll work out that remaining 3% over testing.)

I played a bit of time splitters a while back, it was fun. I was about to say that it wasn't all that realistic though. But I know you'll tell me that the second one is... maha... but we are a team based online multiplayer fps, sooo basically anyone who want's one community, many scenarios, all eerily realistic, then we're the mod for them.

Honestly, any mod who might make it has to be confident, as I am, but I know everyone out there who believes in there mod sits in their bed at night praying to the gods that it doesn't fall through. I am skilled, and a good leader with an awsome team, I really want this mod to work, also my future in the gaming industry is depending on it. I want to create something that cannot be described in words, no gimmicks or hooks. cold hard reality that has to be played to have any clue of why our mod stands apart. I agree with people saying that you must tell what makes your mod so original. All I can say is ours will just feel, sound, and look so... eerily realistic it'll make you shiver. If We succeed then the only thing I will be able to tell people at the end of all this is "I can confidently say we're the best realistic shooter ever, and you'll have no idea of what I'm talking about until you try it." If I can't say that and beleive it, then S&S has failed.

I know that half the people waiting to play S&S are skeptics. That's fine by me, cause they will be the first fans, and if I can turn them, then we .:pWN:.!
mua,,, MUA muA AHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!!
::ack:: ::ack:::

No hooks, No gimmicks (um, is that a hook? whatever...)
Slugs & Steel

--Ephesus
S&S Lead Design
 
Actually, I dont think I have seen anyone try to make such a thing in an FPS MP before. And definetly not on that scale (an ugly and horrible game actually made you travel back in time to kill nazis, and then you went into the future to kill future nazis or something). Maybe it is original after all :D
 
Sorry ephesus, but you obviously don't know the definition of a 'realistic' game (from what you stated). I would like to know what 'real life experience' you have too :)

Your mod idea overall is alright and I would say it is 'original' because you are implementing so much into one mod.
 
I'm sure he have some real life experience (hey, he IS able to talk) :)
At any rate, if one want it "look so... eerily realistic it'll make you shiver", even Source isnt the means. Its good, but not the epitome of technology to do it this realisticly. Unless one can use dynamic lighting all over the place, or even rewrite that part of the engine :) But then it'll come down to the computer, not even a 3ghz with a 9800 Pro could handle a game that's so high poly it starts to look real. Maybe in a year...

Edit: Well, and this long time until it would be playable in full, but what I meant was the top dogs of computers, normal players still couldnt play it.
 
on the point of logic. you should probably define your use of the word logic since the word has multiple conotations. When i see the word logic i think of logic in philosophy, I think digital logic, and then there the perception that logic means common sense. I'm guessing your using the Digital Logic definition when refering to coding.

As for originality. Nothing is original, everything you say,do, think has been done before. in fact this entire thread has been done before. several times already.
 
When I mean logic I mean it in many ways. For one you need the logic to get from point A (which is nothing, or a base engine you have) to point B (which would be a finished game, or a step in game development). Digital logic, as in boolean logic, is a set of gates in the computer. The entire computer is built on it, using bitwise AND, NOT, OR etc.. you can achieve every mathematical equasion possible. Logical and, not, or are used in programming much more though. Say you wanted to make a tetris game, a rather simple game. Basicly tetris is comprised of having units of 1 by 1 square blocks (4 to be precise) fall slowly down a playing field until they either hit the bottom, or another block, at which point they will be locked into position. Once a horizontal line of blocks is formed that line is erased, the line below is brought down and points are added to the score. Present this to someone and he will ask you how the hell you are supposed to recreate something like that using math, since thats all a computer is, a huge calculator. Thats when logical operators come into play. Anyways I dont want to turn this into a programming lesson but basicly programming and science in a way allows you to divide a game, in this case tetris into a simple set of instructions that will then make it easy for you to reproduce it. Thats what I have just done. If a block on the unit of 4 blocks reaches the bottom of the field or another block is beneath it lock the series of 4 blocks. After the block is locked, check to see if a line of blocks was formed, if you remove that line and bring down all the blocks above that line down 1 row. Once that is done add 10 to score and spawn another 'floating' unit of 4 blocks. Anyways, I dunno if I anwsered your question but I put enough in here for someone to make a tetris game :p
 
Hiro: No quite everything :). I bet no one has had thier arse shaved by simese twin lions with a Mach III razor.... ;) (well except me :) )
 
Originally posted by dawdler
But then it'll come down to the computer, not even a 3ghz with a 9800 Pro could handle a game that's so high poly it starts to look real. Maybe in a year...
Click to expand...

Polys don't make graphics, though. A game can achieve photo-realism through textures, bump-mapping, normal mapping, dynamic lighting, etc...

STALKER has some scenes that look real. The even had a trailer where they faded from the real Chernobyl to the one they have in-game. The difference was almost unnoticeable.
 
and if you have a game thats heavely reliant on Dynamic Lighting, Normal Maps, etc.. you'll run into the same problem as with just using high poly's. It's easier for a Video Card to create the geometry of a mesh. However when it has to track hundreds of things that are happeing to the mesh thats wherein the proble lies. i think most people are trying to find the balance between poly's and maps.
 
dawdler: What I meant about ephesus' experience is that he says he has real life experience after he describes some some aspects of combat. I am wondering if he has any combat or training experience that isn't paintball or airsoft, but with real weapons with live, blank, or simunition ammunition.
 
Originally posted by Argyll
dawdler: What I meant about ephesus' experience is that he says he has real life experience after he describes some some aspects of combat. I am wondering if he has any combat or training experience that isn't paintball or airsoft, but with real weapons with live, blank, or simunition ammunition.
Click to expand...
I figured that ;)

Polys don't make graphics, though. A game can achieve photo-realism through textures, bump-mapping, normal mapping, dynamic lighting, etc...

STALKER has some scenes that look real. The even had a trailer where they faded from the real Chernobyl to the one they have in-game. The difference was almost unnoticeable.
Click to expand...
Can it? Movies (cinema mostly) are STILL not photorealistic, you can spot what's fake and whats not (even in such a awesome special effects movie like Lord Of The Rings, you can easily spot when the characters turn digital, if you are looking for it, or backgrounds that are faked (though there its nearly photorealistic, some are made VERY good)). Do you claim that we can make photorealism in a realtime game then? Better than a movie? I've never seen it. I've seen the Stalker trailer, and it sure looks like its in 3D.
 
Roighty Ho.... here comes my opinion:

If you think of it... barely any mods are origianal, since the concept of the conventional FPS has suffered death by a thousand clones.... so try and re-invent what is the convention. Simple. Mods aren't bound to any publisher or deadlines, and can be responsible for taking the industry in a new direction... if we do something that only a few people love, as opposed to something the masses are indifferent to, we can afford to do that....
 
dunno, STALKER has nearly fooled me on some occasions. Next generation, I think we'll start to see games that are either photo-realistic, or on the edge of being so.

Hold me to it.
 
Originally posted by alco
dunno, STALKER has nearly fooled me on some occasions. Next generation, I think we'll start to see games that are either photo-realistic, or on the edge of being so.

Hold me to it.
Click to expand...
They are already on the edge. Its always been on the edge. If you have been around long enough to read previews about Duke Nukem 3D, you'd know.
It featured the most realisticly modelled enviroments ever according to the developers. :eek:
Next year, when games have 2 times more complexity in textures/polycounts, we will STILL think its just on the edge. Its exactly the same thing in movies. When Star Wars was released, it was so real you could almost touch it. Today, it SUCKS in terms of special effects :p
And yet, something like LOTR and Gollum is not photorealistic. Only someone that havent been around computers (peruvian indians perhaps) would think its so real you cant see the difference. And Gollum himself probably features more polygons than any single previous movie had combined in its 3D models :)
 
Now that I think about it, CG has reached photorealism. The problem with LOTR is that it's set in a fantasy setting. So it's even harder to be convincing.

http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/torbjorn_olsson1.jpg

http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/gilles_tran3.jpg

http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/defontaine_jacques1.jpg

Now, you couldn't honestly tell me those were CG if you didn't already know. Yeah, I have been around to see reviews for Duke Nukem 3D. Games like Duke3D pushed the boundaries, but I wouldn't have called it photo-realistic, just like I wouldn't call HL2 photorealistic, or Doom 3. STALKER, however, has some environments that I might consider giving that title.
So considering how good STALKER looks now, taking into account the major boost in graphics we see with every console launch, and the progress we see every generation, I would say that within the next generation of games, we will see photo-realism.

Hold me to it.
 
Alco: The first wasn't photorealistic, and the second was there, except for the reflections on the car, but that thrid one was georgeous.
 
I fooled my bro with the old man pic, and i'll try my mum with all four of them tomorrow hee hee :)

But the rendering times for theses beautiful works of art must be quite high, you'll need something quite special to render things like this on the fly :/
 
Originally posted by Murray_H
But the rendering times for theses beautiful works of art must be quite high, you'll need something quite special to render things like this on the fly :/
Click to expand...

Render farm witha bunch of machiens using Quadro FX 3

:)
 
Yeah, I don't think we'd be able to have those models/environments in-game. But using high-quality textures, lighting, and other effects will get us to the point of not being able to tell the difference between videogame graphics and real life.

And that will bring forth a lot more problems concerning protestation against violence in videogames.
 
Originally posted by alco
Now that I think about it, CG has reached photorealism. The problem with LOTR is that it's set in a fantasy setting. So it's even harder to be convincing.

http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/torbjorn_olsson1.jpg

http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/gilles_tran3.jpg

http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/defontaine_jacques1.jpg

Now, you couldn't honestly tell me those were CG if you didn't already know.
Click to expand...
The first look fake, but the 2 others are pretty good... At any rate, what I was talking about was MOVIES. Not stills... That dude for instance, is there a movie showing him off? Even if the dude is photorealistic, EVERYTHING affects the view, speed, movement, dynamics in movement, each little cloth ripple, everything. That's what I'm talking about, and that's what we are still far from in a game.
 
Yeah, you do make a good point, dawdler.

Only time can show us, I guess.
 
my opinion.....:cool:


A sword is only as effective as the man that holds it.
 
Photo realistic games are futher away than you think, It will at least take 20-30 years to get full real time radiosty with deceant sample rates and resolution in a game with geometry complex enough to get scenes as good as this http://raph.com/3dartists/artgaller...ne_jacques1.jpg, and thats not completely realistic not by a long shot. I could have told you that scene was CG after takeing one look at it (I'v been studying CG for a while though), but thats about as realistic I would want a game to look TBH.
 
Originally posted by mrchimp
Photo realistic games are futher away than you think, It will at least take 20-30 years to get full real time radiosty with deceant sample rates and resolution in a game with geometry complex enough to get scenes as good as this
Click to expand...
20-30 years is a bit long... In 20 or 30 years, we'll have computers more powerfull than the human brain (well, in theory, it could hit a dead end, or it could be an extreme evolution of technology) according to the theory on how computers gain speed.
 
A trained eye would almost never be fooled. But the gaming market is comprised mostly of casual gamers. Most of them don't know shit about CG, and would be easily fooled.

As dawdler mentioned, I think the real challenge to getting there is animations for living beings. That's an incredible challenge. And as long as we don't get there, people can automatically spot something that looks unnatural.
 
Personally, i don't want stuff to get too photo-realistic, i'd rather developers/artists concentrated on making other cool effects. I mean, if i want photo-realism i look out my window. :)

Don't get me wrong, i still look at images like the ones posted a few replys ago, and think 'wow, that's good'. But I think that once complete realism has been achieved in a game, unless it lets you do things you can't do in real life (this not really realism) it would get boring.

As games get closer and closer to realism, things that arn't correct will become more obvious (e.g. reflections on the car in the picture above).

To sum up - i want things to look real, and behave as expected in a game, but i don't want to play a game that i see every day (on TV or wherever), such as war-games). I want more stuff like the gauss-gun and the manipulator!! :cheese:
 
CG graphics, including the ones found in videogames, have mostly tried to portray the world as realistically as possible. There will obviously be lots of games that have their own artistic style which aren't trying to be realistic.

But the gameplay itself isn't going to suffer because of this. There will still be insane, impossible guns. There will still be games boasting unrealistic worlds. It's really an entirely different issue.
 
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