Why do you have faith?

[Absinthe]

There will always be that psychic or prophet who mysteriously gets it right on what people think or how their dead relative was.

Oh, how lucky them.

 

[Pesmerga]

I see... I see a person in your family... his... name ... started with the letter 'M'

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Not that kind, I mean the kind of people who get thing right almost always, or the person who performs miracles, like that guy in South America who runs a healing-for-free society or something... let me google it quick.

 

[Stigmata]

You mean the people who make a lot of accurate predictions because their predictions are purposefully vague, and the miracle healers who don't actually do anything?

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

there are those who are not vague.

Jo?o Teixeira de Faria is that other guys name. He does good 75% of the time from what I see, so I need more proof yea, but he seems pretty good. I'd go see him one day.

Ok, I'll admit the greater majority of this is probably from listening to Coast to Coast too much and being on above top secret for hours on end.

 

[Tyguy]

I have absolutely no idea what he is talking about anymore

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

I'm crazy, you know. It's a problem. Though it should be noted I don't actually believe in most of the above, I was simply defending those respective people's beliefs.

"although I may not agree with you, I shall defend your right to say it"

Now, seeing as I've done nothing, I will happily leave this forum section because I'm making a fool out of myself. Just know that neither atheism nor religion will ever be 100% accepted by all. Humans have two tendencies in this situation: Rebellion and pride.

Generations will always rebel against the previous, thus becoming either faith goers or non-faith goers, and those who are sure of themselves with pride in their faith will never allow themselves or their offspring to change to their maximum strength.

Point is, this thread is useless, and I've just inadvertently made in sub-useless with my ramblings.

 

[Dog--]

I think Atheism will eventually be dominant, back in the 50's and earlier you rarely heard about 'non-belivers' , but now, just walk into a high school, take a poll, I guarantee you will get atleast 50% non-believer..

 

[Krynn72]

I have faith because i was raised around it and taught myself to believe in it.

This line pretty much ends the thread.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

I had to come back to say this

Dog--, in the 50s, Faith was on a downward trend since the 20s. it wasn't talked about because the power holders were religious and passing religious laws. Drugs and partying were the norm until the depression. Everyone lost their faith, etc etc. Then in the 50's, things began to change. The Fourth Great Awakening happened in the 60s and religion bounced back up. It's been on a downward trend since. This is the pattern I was talking about. We are about to enter a 5th Great Awakening probably, and it has begun in the South and Central west. This new Great Awakening in the US is being driven by the influx of Russian and Mexican immigrants and will probably end with a new form of Christianity (it changes it's image every time a great awakening occurs)

As more immigrants come over with their beliefs and culture, I highly doubt your 50% atheism in High schools will stay present. Oh, and let's not even go into the influx of Middle Easterners sure to come here post-war. THey will bring their part to the 5th Great Awakening.

that's my 2 cents.

 

[Wanted Bob]

That isnt solving the "problem" of atheism though, you are just taking people from one area and putting them in another. No-one is actually regaining faith according to what you just said.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

they bring their ideas over which provoke thought and change the face of Christianity which in turn change the nation. Atheists get outnumbered and the vast number of "new" Christians basically overpower them. it happens every great awakening. Or at the least, both sides grow in number equally.

 

[Wanted Bob]

If I'm reading this correctly, a great awakening has to do with the changes of the religion itself. This doesnt make sense to me, havent Christians been following the Bible which was written thousands of years ago? What actual changes have been made since then?

Also, if anything, atheists are finding more reasons to chose their beleifs (or lack therof ) as time goes on. So unless the religion was forced onto them, I'm unsure as to whether they would actually be overpowered.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Every awakening, the religion changes. in 1600s, the religion was a fear based one, where church leaders used fear tactics and horrible understanding of the Bible to expand their religion. This was the early American religious society.

In the first Great awakening, people were fed up, and they revolutionized religion for revolutionary thinkings on the "free man" etc etc. It led many individuals to join the American revolution. The constitution had a number of inspirations from it.

The second great awakening was a result of industrialized America. People felt worthless, abandoned, and forgotten from the bad labor conditions and all that stuff. This made religious leaders inspire change and reform. The women movement and labor parties came forth from it. Mormonism was created, the slaves found hope in "salvation" etc etc. Religion changed to a more friendly one and based on around Jesus. It eventually helped in reforms in the civil war.

3rd one wasn't too different

4th created a universalistic Christianity. It's effects led Christians to accept that many non-Christians had a right to heaven etc etc. For protestants, it made them more evangelical.


So the religion's basis of belief doesn't change, but it's follower's attitudes change. The 4th awakening defeated racism in some eras, created it elsewhere, etc etc.


The new one will probably come forth in the coming economic recession. As the common American middle class is forced to work with the poor immigrant due to decreasing pay, ideas will be shared, and new reforms will come forth. The white southerner fundamentalist Protestants will meet with the Mexican Catholic and the Russian Orthodox and exchange cultural beliefs and theology.

Such is already occurring my neighborhood. You see many "born again" Mexicans who have both protestant and catholic mixes. This awakening is even spreading out of North America, as Spanish south America is becoming reformed and protestant. The Russian immigrants already have begun taking on traits similar to the Italian model. This is in New York at least. And usually, things in New York spread out to the nation (as happened in the second awakening).


least I blab on, look it up yourself.

 

[Eejit]

What's the point in arguing with people who only make extremely vague statements that they aren't even sure of themselves? :s

 

[Llama]

Long post about the bible

The bible was more closely followed in 1600 than it is today. Perhaps you should read it yourself.

 

[Saturos]

Id like to hear some explanation as to why people have faith in religion.

Religion is a human institution. An organized means of worship. A faith in spirituality or, "spiritual relationship" would be more accurate.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Portalstormzzzz please. You are vague, make little sense and you have already embassred yourself argueing that the universe is a perfect system. Perhaps you speak for America, but I asure you, your "religious cycle" doesn't apply to Europe.

At my college the majority of people are atheists. At my high school about half were. There has never been that many people atheists before. Perhaps in the USA, but not here.

I also like how you make definate claims with no evidence at all. Good game.

On religion, I think it is memetic.

 

[jverne]

yup portal...those are some tough statements you should be backing up.

but i can agree with you that poor social status causes someone to become religious.

so my argument still stands. once we shed our biological bodies, misery won't be a problem anymore. when scientist crack the mind, they could just erase the faith center of the brain.
religion just won't be feasible anymore.


but i have to admit that i'm not sure how would i react in dire situations. it's a possibility my instincts would overpower my reason. but right now i see no reason how would believing in god provide me with food,shelter and security.

 

[Geogaddi]

I've never seen faith move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers.

 

[jverne]

I've never seen faith move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers.

afterall maybe the fundies aren't that stupid...but you never know.


NEWSFLASH

Muslim fundamentalist crash into, what they consider a godless, granite mountain.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

As I was saying earlier, as Muslims come here and work along side other people, they will learn that crashing into buildings in kind of stupid.

And on being vague, I was just stating that a new awakening is coming because all the signs are showing that create one: Declining economy, increased tensions, increasing need for reform, increased corruption. I DID write all that at 3 am. I wanted to write it quickly and go to bed.


Llama. The old testament bible was followed more in the 1600s. As reform movements grew, people became distasteful to the corrupt and evil sounding messages, so they made their own faith and their own churches and abandoned the fear-mongering. The took the new testament more.

Atomic piggy, your in England. Most of Europe is atheist. Why do I care about Europe to begin with? I was talking about the great awakening movements of America, which come and go on average every 30-40 years.

jverne, scientists will never crack the mind or shed us from reality. Every 50 or so years they claim it, then a whole new layer is found and they shut up(today it's string theory, 50 years ago it was DNA, there's always a new layer of the universe being found). Maybe we will one day be all powerful, but never immortal. As we spread across the stars in the future, it will only inspire new sciences and new religions as human contact is stretched and ideas become diverse.

 

[Raziaar]

I've never seen faith move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers.

Well actually, technically speaking faith and religion in general in the past has inspired some cultures to literally displace mountains worth of material for their construction projects in primitive times, whereas even today the feat would be vastly time consuming and expensive. Their efforts literally changed their landscape. If I'm not mistaken, the Olmec were one of them. Science has recently revealed these facts.

I only mention it because it goes on the same logic of a person flying a plane into a building and bringing it down...

 

[jverne]

jverne, scientists will never crack the mind or shed us from reality. Every 50 or so years they claim it, then a whole new layer is found and they shut up(today it's string theory, 50 years ago it was DNA, there's always a new layer of the universe being found). Maybe we will one day be all powerful, but never immortal. As we spread across the stars in the future, it will only inspire new sciences and new religions as human contact is stretched and ideas become diverse.

i'm not exactly talking about all powerful.
more like when scientists will fully understand the human brain. when it will be possible to program a fully conscious intelligence with emotions and all that stuff. it would be possible to design them without a center for supernatural thought. and thus becoming the most rational being ever created.

but this wont be so soon, i give you that. although predictions are made for 2030 for the first uplink.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Atomic piggy, your in England. Most of Europe is atheist. Why do I care about Europe to begin with? I was talking about the great awakening movements of America, which come and go on average every 30-40 years.

Meh, I woulnd't say most of europe is atheist. The EU polls showed an incredible decline mind you, but only about 44% are atheists.

If anyone wants, I can find these polls. Be warned, its an adobe document, and has loads of other stuff apart from religion.

Anyway, I cannot comment on America, as apart from the civil war and your independance from our epic empire P), I know little about American history.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

jverne, who are you to decide that by getting rid of something from the brain, the person won't be capable in that are? There are people who have had half their brains removed, and the other half learned what the lost part did.

Perhaps you've heard the story of the kid who was born without the part of the bran that controls walking, but still walked?

But Hablitz notes that the brain also has remarkable abilities to compensate for problems that arise in these early stages of life. "For example, some people are born without a cerebellum, which is normally the part of the brain we use for walking and talking. But they can function fairly normally—if you saw them on the street, you wouldn’t know they’re missing a crucial part of their brains. While they aren’t going to be concert pianists, these people’s brains have adapted, and they manage very well."

http://main.uab.edu/show.asp?durki=60790

The brain is a magnificent thing that can fully operate even with missing parts.


Atomic Piggy, if you don't know about American history, let me tell you this much. Religion is a roller coaster that goes up and down every half century or so. New immigrants bring in new ideas which revolutionize old ones and change the culture.

 

[theotherguy]

jverne, who are you to decide that by getting rid of something from the brain, the person still won't believe in that part. There are people who have had half their brains removed, and the other half learned what the lost part did.

Perhaps you've heard the story of the kid who was born without the part of the bran that controls walking, but still walked?

The brain is a magnificent thing that can fully operate even with missing parts.
.

While that may be true when a person is injured in infancy or early childhood, it isn't quite true for adults. If you have half of your brain lobotomized as an adult, you will not be able to move half of your body. If both hemispheres are damaged in a specific area, you will lose some brain functions (aka, having a stroke).

Brain damage to adults is for the most part permanent. But if it is small enough, it is not unheard of for the surviving neurons to take over for the damaged parts.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

no, he was talking about genetic engineering people not to believe in God. Which then my point stands.

But hey, Christopher Reed was beginning to walk again (underwater) after a chunk of his brain got killed off.

 

[theotherguy]

Every awakening, the religion changes. in 1600s, the religion was a fear based one, where church leaders used fear tactics and horrible understanding of the Bible to expand their religion. This was the early American religious society.

In the first Great awakening, people were fed up, and they revolutionized religion for revolutionary thinkings on the "free man" etc etc. It led many individuals to join the American revolution. The constitution had a number of inspirations from it.

The second great awakening was a result of industrialized America. People felt worthless, abandoned, and forgotten from the bad labor conditions and all that stuff. This made religious leaders inspire change and reform. The women movement and labor parties came forth from it. Mormonism was created, the slaves found hope in "salvation" etc etc. Religion changed to a more friendly one and based on around Jesus. It eventually helped in reforms in the civil war.

3rd one wasn't too different

4th created a universalistic Christianity. It's effects led Christians to accept that many non-Christians had a right to heaven etc etc. For protestants, it made them more evangelical.


So the religion's basis of belief doesn't change, but it's follower's attitudes change. The 4th awakening defeated racism in some eras, created it elsewhere, etc etc.


The new one will probably come forth in the coming economic recession. As the common American middle class is forced to work with the poor immigrant due to decreasing pay, ideas will be shared, and new reforms will come forth. The white southerner fundamentalist Protestants will meet with the Mexican Catholic and the Russian Orthodox and exchange cultural beliefs and theology.

Such is already occurring my neighborhood. You see many "born again" Mexicans who have both protestant and catholic mixes. This awakening is even spreading out of North America, as Spanish south America is becoming reformed and protestant. The Russian immigrants already have begun taking on traits similar to the Italian model. This is in New York at least. And usually, things in New York spread out to the nation (as happened in the second awakening).


least I blab on, look it up yourself.

Yep. Though its debatable whether we are in an awakening right now.

The first great awakening was in response to the Enlightenment, btw. (It is sometimes referred to as the counter-enlightenment)

The constitution has absolutely nothing to do with the first great awakening. The constitution is more influenced by the Enlightenment ideals of John Locke and Rousseau than anyone in the Great Awakening. In fact, the first Awakening was in direct response to the Deist enlightenment practiced by most of the founding fathers. Awakening "hellfire" preachers were mostly decrying the effect of the enlightenment on church attendance, and raved against reason and science.

The second great awakening was indeed in response to the industrial revolution, but it occurred mostly because protestant evangelicals felt that America was becoming too separated from religion and too tolerant of others. It indeed led to the "progressives", who were a group of reformist liberals who wanted to end slavery, prohibit alcohol, and promote women's rights. It led to a politicization of religion. It saw the birth of Mormonism.

The third great awakening was inspired by the antebellum and Civil War period and saw the birth of "Christian Science", and the Salvation Army. It was mostly a religious movement which sought political and social reform.

The fourth great awakening was during the late 1960's, and was a response to the liberal radicalism affecting the nation at that time. It saw the birth of modern fundamentalism and evangelical sects. (It is debated whether this is actually an awakening)

We are in either the fourth or fifth great awakening right now, with fundamentalists and evangelicals returning to the world stage and demanding conservative political reform, (whereas in the past the reforms have been more liberal), demanding an end to abortion, gay marriage, teaching of evolution, and the separation of church and state itself.

 

[theotherguy]

no, he was talking about genetic engineering people not to believe in God. Which then my point stands.

But hey, Christopher Reed was beginning to walk again (underwater) after a chunk of his brain got killed off.

... which is ridiculous anyway. Belief in god is centered in our ability to have a "theory of minds" and have empathy for others. It leads us to predict other's actions, and also leads us to believe (illogically), that random actions have a purpose.

If we took this away we'd all be practically autistic.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Well I think we are entering a new awakening because of the mixing between Mexicans Catholics, Russians Orthodox, and Americans protestants. In the 2nd awakening, this caused riots.But because it has yet to create massive problems, they are conjoin into a single thought process, which will lead to new ideas and theology.

 

[jverne]

no, he was talking about genetic engineering people not to believe in God. Which then my point stands.

But hey, Christopher Reed was beginning to walk again (underwater) after a chunk of his brain got killed off.

nope...i wasn't talking about genetic engineering.

i was talking about uploading the mind. as in transferring the mind to a computer. which means everything then could be monitored and all connections in the mind will be know, documented and possibly controlled.

then we probably wont think like we do now. we will just see religion as something irrelevant to our existence. it's not necessarily that someone will cut our religious center off, but we will do it ourself since it wont present anything logical,explainable and will drain processing power.

 

[theotherguy]

Well I think we are entering a new awakening because of the mixing between Mexicans Catholics, Russians Orthodox, and Americans protestants. In the 2nd awakening, this caused riots.But because it has yet to create massive problems, they are conjoin into a single thought process, which will lead to new ideas and theology.

Huh?

This great awakening has much more to do with evangelicals in the deep south. I have no idea where you're getting these ideas about "Mexican Catholitcs " and "Russian orthodox"

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Mexicans and Russians are the biggest immigrant groups coming in. Mexicans are mainly in the south and Russians in the North. They will eventually breed and mix in at the mid points. Southerners also want churches filled. Converting the Mexicans would be their primary care.

jverne, many would be hesitant in such a life style, including me. What you just described opens that door to government control of thought and virtually a "thought police". I highly doubt such will every be wildly welcomed.

 

[theotherguy]

Mexicans and Russians are the biggest immigrant groups coming in. Mexicans are mainly in the south and Russians in the North. They will eventually breed and mix in at the mid points. Southerners also want churches filled. Converting the Mexicans would be their primary care.

jverne, many would be hesitant in such a life style, including me. What you just described opens that door to government control of thought and virtually a "thought police". I highly doubt such will every be wildly welcomed.

I don't think you have a very good grasp on reality....

 

[Pesmerga]

Man, Russians aren't even mentioned on the wiki immigration page.

Also, PortalStormzzzz is an idiot. You're not even discussing theology anymore, you're probably ready to bust a nut and splurge on about civil war in America.

 

[jverne]

jverne, many would be hesitant in such a life style, including me. What you just described opens that door to government control of thought and virtually a "thought police". I highly doubt such will every be wildly welcomed.

oh don't worry you won't have a choice. you will be overpowered in every sense there is.

ever though how much tremendous power would a trans human entity have?
picture the creativity of a human combined with the potential processing power of a computer.
our fate would be decided in a matter of seconds.

there would be no wars as seen in the terminator movies.
the semi AI would predict our moves a thousand times ahead, figure out any strategy that the humans can think of. develop means for quick eradication.
seriously we wouldn't stand one tiny bit of a chance.

ok that's in the occasion the semi AI turns against us. but i doubt the entity would be evil, it just will see humans as a inconvenience to their development.

if you think i'm bullshitting you, look at the research being done. there's a BBC horizons docu on this. this is not sci-fi this will one day be reality.

oh and in a singularity there would be no need for a government.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

don't matter, they wioll never strap me to a machine. I will leave earth and live on mars first.

Man, Russians aren't even mentioned on the wiki immigration page.

oh well. Then never mind, the Mexicans will still mix their culture with he evangelicals. Where I live, Russian populations are growing, but if I'm wrong then ok.

I don't think you have a very good grasp on reality....

I was wrong. I was thinking about Staten Island, not the nation, never mind.

Since the 2000 census, a rather large Russian community has been growing on Staten Island, particularily in the South Beach and Great Kills area.

Also, PortalStormzzzz is an idiot. You're not even discussing theology anymore, you're probably ready to bust a nut and splurge on about civil war in America.

have you considered I may just be passing the time with conspiracy talk as sections of my half life movie are rendered? I don't mean alot of what i say, just want to see the reaction to new ideas.

 

[Saturos]

have you considered I may just be passing the time with conspiracy talk as sections of my half life movie are rendered? I don't mean alot of what i say, just want to see the reaction to new ideas.

Really. It tickles me to see how many people here think they are intellectual titans just because they can post "theories" on a discussion board. *sheesh* /facepalm Most of the stuff posted here is just by people who are passing time downloading MP3's, movies, Steam games, etc. Not to be taken personally imo. Anyone who takes stuff personally on a discussion board really needs to get out more.:thumbs:

 

[Stigmata]

Well some of us enjoy actually making use of our brains by debating politics. That's what this forum section is for.

And apparently PortalStormzzzz is wasting all of our time because he has nothing better to do. So thanks for that, Portal. You're a real upstanding guy.