Why is the US always wrong?

[Gray Fox]

I have no idea why anyone would make this thread, unless you're a moron.

 

[CptStern]

arrogant

adj : having or showing feelings of UNWARRANTED importance out of overbearing pride;

barely in the top 10 hapless, there's nothing to be envious of, not any more so than a dozen or so other countries that have a better standard of living

 

[KoreBolteR]

To generalize all hatred for the US as mere jealousy is as ridiculous as saying that all enemies of the US hate freedom. To say such things is to pretend that the US has never inspired (often rightful) anger from the world community.

i didnt say all hatred was poited at jealousy now, did i?

alot of it is though.

you are right about "all enemies of the US hate freedom." being ridiculous, cos it isnt true. for a fact these countries love the freedom, but do not like america policing the world... frankly if america didnt, there would be maniacs like hitler popping up everywhere.


CptStern even if there is a better standard of living in other countries, there only a few.. therefore they can still be 'arrogant'. they are the richest country in the world.. who can stop them? the UN?... i doubt it.

 

[Absinthe]

i didnt say all hatred was poited at jealousy now, did i?

alot of it is though.

Can you back this up?

Not everybody wishes to be American/live in the United States/take up American customs.

 

[Bodacious]

Not necessarily.

A 51% majority does not represent the nation on the whole. Also, people do not often agree 100% with their candidate. They just vote for the person they agree with more. It's always a compromise, and it always leaves room for the victorious candidate to pull a stunt that will alienate his constituents.

This is ignoring faulty voting machines and the questionable procedure of barring certain voters.

Yes necissarily.

There is more to America that Bush. There is a big thing called congress. I garauntee you a vast majority of those people were not elected by a 51% majority. So yes, in respect to congress, our government is representative.

Bush is not a dictator. His word is not Law. Congress makes laws. Congress is representative of the nation's people.

 

[Absinthe]

Yes necissarily.

There is more to America that Bush. There is a big thing called congress. I garauntee you a vast majority of those people were not elected by a 51% majority. So yes, in respect to congress, our government is representative.

Bush is not a dictator. His word is not Law. Congress makes laws. Congress is representative of the nation's people.

Bodacious, if you think Congress accurately represents the American people, then I'm stopping right here. I'd rather not waste time with somebody who thinks that our democratic system is infallible.

 

[Cole]

Congress does represent the american people but not accuractly.
That is a problem.

 

[Bodacious]

Bodacious, if you think Congress accurately represents the American people, then I'm stopping right here. I'd rather not waste time with somebody who thinks that our democratic system is infallible.

Ok. I would like to see your source people don't really elect their representatives.


Oh and because you said you weren't wasteing your time, if you reply to this post, according to the forum rules, you should get a warning. I did for doing something similar. Lets see if Bliinks standard is upheld equally.

 

[Bodacious]

Congress does represent the american people but not accuractly.
That is a problem.

How though? From what information source do you make that accusation?

 

[GhostFox]

alot of it is though.

You are obviously right Kore. I see envy/jealousy directed at the states every day. Much of the country here suffers a complex because we are next to the US.

But most of the envious people will deny with their dying breath, so I think arguing it will be pointless. If someone cannot admit that a portion of hatred directed at the US is envy, then I think we can all figure out their reasons for that without them admitting to it.

 

[The Monkey]

CptStern even if there is a better standard of living in other countries, there only a few..

Seven, to be precise: Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium and Iceland. http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indic/indic_16_1_1.html

 

[GhostFox]

take up American customs.

I'm sorry, but which remote corner of the world hasn't been Americanized? It's kind of scary in some ways, but US culture is rapidly absorbing the whole world. In a 100 years I would be shocked if there was a country on the planet where you couldn't eat McD's, shop at Wal-Mart, and wear clothes from the Gap. And at the end of the day people will go home to watch Friends reruns, which will be in sindication for all eternity (wasn't that one of the signs of the apocolypse? )

I think at this point Pax Americana is inevitable. That doesn't mean other cultures will be wiped out, only that Indians will look at a Hindu temple while eating at Denny's and discussing last weeks Law & Order (on it's 51st cast).

 

[No Limit]

Ok. I would like to see your source people don't really elect their representatives.


Oh and because you said you weren't wasteing your time, if you reply to this post, according to the forum rules, you should get a warning. I did for doing something similar. Lets see if Bliinks standard is upheld equally.

Getting elected in to office is not about being right, it is about spreading as much propogenda / misinformation as possible. I hate to say it but the average American is a total idiot when it comes to politics. They get their information from 1 source and don't care about anything else. I'll give you an example, you ask the average Bush voter why they hate Kerry they will say he likes killing babies since he supports abortion; so because of their religion they vote for Bush. You ask the average Kerry voter why they hate Bush and they say Bush invaded Iraq only to get rich on oil. Both are totally idiotic positions but these people can't be bothered to look any deeper or look at a wide range of issues to make an educated decision. Whos fault is this? Partly the media but also of our government which will never address criticism. Lets take the current administration as an example. Bush is currently on tour to get support for his social security reform from all Americans as he claims. The problem is that he only invites Bush voters to these events and most questions are screened.

Lets look at the "debates" we had. The questions again were mostly screened. The candidates were not allowed to address each other directly and there were no real follow up responses to anything. When people were allowed to ask questions they were screened and would be cut off if they went off the approved questions. These were nothing close to real debates and the fact they were called that was an insult.

Lets look at press confrences. The president is allowed to set up as little of these as he wants and most of the time he is allowed to have his press secretary address everything. Then we find out there are GOP hacks set up in there with no prior press experiance and are mysteriously called on everytime the questioning gets tough. Go look at some press confrences Bush did in foreign countries (which are rare), he came out like a total idiot as the criticism was real and he couldn't address it. I have a good clip of this, let me see if I can find it. These are never shown on American TV.

Politics in this country is just one big show and because of this most people in this country are total idiots when it comes to political issues. I think something like 60% of the people still think Saddam was responsible for 9/11. Again, test my theory. Go ask a Bush voter why they voted for Bush and ask a Kerry voter why they voted for Kerry. 90% of the time the response will be what I gave above; I know because I talked to many people about this. The media isn't putting any pressure on our government to change this system so people will continue to be idiots.

I disagree highly with what conservatives here say but I have to admit you guys at least do some research. No matter how many times the liberals win a debate you will not change you mind but I still respect the fact you are willing to participate in meaningful debate, 95% of this country is too lazy for that. So elections are won on not who is better for this country but it is decided on who runs the better ad campaigns and who can appeal more to their base. This leads to arrogant Americans that say they would like to kill 1.5 billion commies themselves and that is why we end up looking like total asshats around the world. Yes, we do many good things; however, those are covered by the total arrogant/idiotic actions we take.

 

[Fishlore]

I view it as a nation of opportunity and wealth that is inhabited by a majority of caring and good people that are sadly ignorant to world affairs and are easily frightened by their leader thanks to their gullibility.

This is without doubt one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read. To stereotype an entire country of people as being ignorant to world affairs and gullible tells me all I need to know about you.

Do you care to back either of those statements up with something at least resembling intelligence? That fact that you said them to begin with leads me to believe that you can't. I forgot, only people in Switzerland read the news or study history.

You can say whatever you want about the US gov't, the leaders and their agenda. As soon as you call me ignorant and gullible is when I start taking offense. So please, wise one, enlighten me to my ignorance. What do us ignorant bastards not understand?

 

[Absinthe]

This is without doubt one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read. To stereotype an entire country of people as being ignorant to world affairs and gullible tells me all I need to know about you.

Do you care to back either of those statements up with something at least resembling intelligence? That fact that you said them to begin with leads me to believe that you can't. I forgot, only people in Switzerland read the news or study history.

You can say whatever you want about the US gov't, the leaders and their agenda. As soon as you call me ignorant and gullible is when I start taking offense. So please, wise one, enlighten me to my ignorance. What do us ignorant bastards not understand?

If you're going to be such a spiteful little prick to me, then you won't get any replies from me either.

So sorry. Have a nice day.

 

[Fishlore]

If you're going to be such a spiteful little prick to me, then you won't get any replies from me either.

So sorry. Have a nice day.

Hey, my bad. I meant to be sarcastic, but I didn't intend to piss you off. My apologies. Stereotypes are a huuuuge pet peeve of mine and maybe I over reacted a tad. Re-reading my post I can understand how you took it the way you did.

 

[Hapless]

barely in the top 10 hapless, there's nothing to be envious of, not any more so than a dozen or so other countries that have a better standard of living

Who is talking about standards of living? I thought this was about American arrogance in foreign policy. Does anyone on this board deny that we are the most powerful nation on earth? Are we not the world's only superpower? Is our President (no matter who he is) not often referred to as, "The Leader of the Free World?" This is what I was pointing out with my post. Any pride or feelings of importance are definitely warranted when it comes to those things. Are we perfect? Not even close. Perfect and best are two different concepts. :cheese:

 

[The Monkey]

Does anyone on this board deny that we are the most powerful nation on earth?

Yes, some people do.

Are we not the world's only superpower?

Depends on how you define "superpower"

Is our President (no matter who he is) not often referred to as, "The Leader of the Free World?"

No, no he isn't. This is in fact the first time I've ever heard him being called that.

Can you explain why you're the "best", then?

 

[Absinthe]

Hey, my bad. I meant to be sarcastic, but I didn't intend to piss you off. My apologies. Stereotypes are a huuuuge pet peeve of mine and maybe I over reacted a tad. Re-reading my post I can understand how you took it the way you did.

Oh, then okay.

It would be impossible for me to find statistics on the gullibility or ignorance of any nation. Those aren't exactly things you can quantify. Seinfeld asked me for my view of America, and so any view of mine is going to be based off of my own interpretation of sources and personal experiences. That said, there are plenty of events in recent history that have lead me to my current view. I also have personal experience, as somebody who was born and raised as an American.

But upon a rereading of my post, I think I could have used some change in diction. "Gullible" may not have been the appropriate word to use. I don't think such a quality is one that's ingrained into American blood or culture or whatever. But I can't help but feel that the administration has used 9/11 as an excuse to do a lot of things that the people, under other circumstances, would not agree with. There has been this idea that everything done so far has been for the good of the people, but I've seen little in terms of results that would support that. I think a good portion of the population is allowing themselves to be squeezed by the government because they're frightened that resisting will only lead to the nation being open to more danger. So yeah, "gullible" wasn't the good word to use. I'd say "frightened", and that says more about the administration than the people.

As for my statement that they're ignorant to world affairs... Again, probably not appropriate. But let's face it. America is the most powerful nation on the planet. Nobody wants to **** with it. Like it or not, the USA is the centerpiece of the world as it currently stands. Why should the rest of the world really matter so much to its inhabitants? This is in contrast to other nations (I can only speak about Europe in this case). Living under the shadow of a super power means that the super power's foreign policy affects you as well. What the USA does matters a lot to the rest of the world. They can't afford to live in blissful isolation from the rest of the planet (this is even more true considering that Europe went through two major shit storms, both starting with "WW").

So I hope that clears up a few things for you. If you still disagree with me, then that's fine. Just so you know that I wasn't intentionally trying to be insulting.

 

[Hapless]

Yes, some people do.
Depends on how you define "superpower" No, no he isn't. This is in fact the first time I've ever heard him being called that.

Can you explain why you're the "best", then?

Tell you what, read the rest of this thread, as well as Absinthe's post after yours. I rarely agree with anything he has to say, but he pretty much hits the nail on the head in that post. (mostly)

 

[Absinthe]

But "best" is fairly relative, don't you think?

 

[The Monkey]

Tell you what, read the rest of this thread, as well as Absinthe's post after yours. I rarely agree with anything he has to say, but he pretty much hits the nail on the head in that post. (mostly)

Yes, I agree with most of Asinthe's post, but do you mind explain what exactly it is that make the US better that other countries?

 

[seinfeldrules]

Yes, I agree with most of Asinthe's post, but do you mind explain what exactly it is that make the US better that other countries?

The US isnt 'better', but we do excel in some areas. Its rather hard to put into words. I think that your question could be better answered by the millions who chose to immigrate here through various methods.

 

[The Monkey]

The US isnt 'better', but we do excel in some areas. Its rather hard to put into words. I think that your question could be better answered by the millions who chose to immigrate here through various methods.

Yes, but those immigrants are mostly from south america, aren't they? And I don't think there's anyone here who denies that the US' standard of living is better that theirs. There're millions that immigrate to europe too, legal and illegal.
The US is one of the best on many things, but are you the best on anything, save military spendings? I've heard that 20% of your population that is over 15 can't read, but that's gotta be false...

 

[seinfeldrules]

The US is one of the best on many things, but are you the best on anything, save military spendings?

Name another country that gives more money to charitable causes.

 

[No Limit]

Yes, but those immigrants are mostly from south america, aren't they? And I don't think there's anyone here who denies that the US' standard of living is better that theirs. There're millions that immigrate to europe too, legal and illegal.
The US is one of the best on many things, but are you the best on anything, save military spendings? I've heard that 20% of your population that is over 15 can't read, but that's gotta be false...

My family immigrated here from Poland when I was 8. I would never give up living here for another country, I absolutely love it. This is not to say other places aren't good to live, it all depends on your life style. I think many people here are simply arrogant about the US but I don't think they are any more arrogant than the British are about their country (aside from politics). The argument is always my country has a bigger penis than your country, but in reality all places have their advantages.

 

[Korgoth]

because our politicians are involved in many shady buisness deals...


Love

 

[The Monkey]

Name another country that gives more money to charitable causes.

True.

But that's mainly beacause you're such a big country, and you have such a big economy. You can't expect a country like Iceland or Belgium to give as much as the US, can you?
But fact is that you give the most, and thousands of people have you to thank for their life. But have you saved more people than you have killed? I don't know.
Can you find something that is not dependent of the country's size?

My family immigrated here from Poland when I was 8. I would never give up living here for another country, I absolutely love it. This is not to say other places aren't good to live, it all depends on your life style. I think many people here are simply arrogant about the US but I don't think they are any more arrogant than the British are about their country (aside from politics). The argument is always my country has a bigger penis than your country, but in reality all places have their advantages.

I agree, every country has its disadvantages, and its advantages. But many americans, the politicians not the least have to realize that they do have disadvantages too, and not just advantages.

 

[MilkMan12]

First they came for the communists, but I wasnt a communist so I didnt say anything.

Then they came for the gypsies but I wasnt a gypsy so I didnt say anything

Then they came for the Jews but I wasnt a Jew so I didnt say anything.

Then they came for me, and nobody was left to help me.

I think the quote is something like that. Thats to all you people saying we have should have no involvement in the rest of the world.

Because as much as you all say that there is not one set of morals and that there is no guideline to morality therefore we cant judge others based on it, thats not true. Im going to tell you right now that there is a set moral standard for the world, and it just so happens to be stemmed from western civilization, we do have a right to say that a certain tribe in Africa cannot kill all their women after they give birth. They cannot kill all twins. So the defense "its our morals, its our way of life dont interrupt" is bullshit. No way in hell can you say that. Like saying what the Nazis did was perfectly OK and should not have been interrupted. What Stalin did was totally fine and should not have been interrupted.

So when you pussies sit their thinking only about yourself and not others and then "they" come for you, you cant ask for help because you never helped anybody else.

If America is the only country that has the ability to police the world then so be it and I support that. If America and Britain are the only countries, then so be it I support them! Because once the freedom thing is down, they can do whatever the hell they want. And the HUMAN RACE deserves, no not deserves, is supposed to have freedom. And thats what we are doing and you cant stop us. If you try then you are evil hearted sorry to say. Taking away someone elses freedom because of your selfishness. And you know what, we dont always execute it perfectly, but i dont see any one else ****ing trying to do what America and Britain and very few other countries are trying to do. So dont ****ing tell us what we are doing wrong because you probably couldnt do it better nor do you have anything to compare it to because no one else will do it!

So please I ask you all, dont deprive anybody of their freedom.

 

[Hapless]

True.

But have you saved more people than you have killed? I don't know.

People will die if we act to stop something, and they will die if we don't act. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

 

[CptStern]

bullshit ...where's osama bin laden? where's your mission of getting those responsible for 9/11? why this side trip into Iraq that had NOTHING to do with 9/11? ...dont you owe the families of the victems of 9/11 some justice? like sheep being led to slaughter america gives it's young for the greed of the old

 

[Hapless]

bullshit ...where's osama bin laden? where's your mission of getting those responsible for 9/11? why this side trip into Iraq that had NOTHING to do with 9/11? ...dont you owe the families of the victems of 9/11 some justice? like sheep being led to slaughter america gives it's young for the greed of the old

Oh, that's right, the Taliban is still in power in Afghanistan. Have you ever tried to find one person hiding in a 3 block area, much less a whole mountainous wasteland of a country? Neat catchphrase BTW. :thumbs:

 

[CptStern]

how many US soldiers are in afghanistan?

 

[Hapless]

how many US soldiers are in afghanistan?

I don't know.

 

[CptStern]

18,000


how many in iraq? around 150,000

 

[Hapless]

18,000


how many in iraq? around 150,000

OK. Thanks. By the way, I believe I've mentioned this before, but in case you forgot, international terrorism did not begin and end with 9/11, Osama Bin Laden or the Taliban.

 

[CptStern]

it did for america


So logically it stands to reason that those behind 9/11 are in iraq and not afghanistan ...why else would their be a disporportionate number of troops in iraq? oh silly me you said the war on terror didnt start with osama .. but there was no terrorism in iraq before you invaded ..welll that's not entirely true because there was indeed state sponsored terrorism ..but hey you supported that so that doesnt count

 

[Korgoth]

Well with troop levels like that stern, one would think it must be easy to scope thouse mountains... I mean logically, if you are looking for something, the more people you have looking the better the odds you will find it right?...

 

[Absinthe]

MilkMan, your argument presumes that the USA is benevolent in its actions, but history says otherwise. Do I need to list off the amount of tyrannical dictators the US has propped up/supported/done business with? Do you really need somebody to explain US involvement in past conflicts?

And you know what, we dont always execute it perfectly

Well, Jesus. I wonder why that is. My personal theory is that it's because the benevolent spread of freedom has always been absent from the #1 spot in the list of its motives.

 

[clarky003]

refering to something said earlier it's important to emphasise that politicians are supposed to be representitives of the people, nowdays they tend to coincide and represent corporation. Government's shouldnt be influenced by corporation's, such as the Military's corporate industry and their interest in war, It's creating corrupt government official's, influencial people who have alterior motives, both in the pentagon and many key US institution's.

The war is bringing in massive profit's for Military corporation's, it's good for them,, yet on the other end there are alot of innocent people being treated as pawn's in life or death , strung along by patriotisim, propaganda that keeps them in the dark about the complexity of the operation and its economic benifit's in profiteering from the 'war machine', government official's are cashing in on it, it's essentially immoral and corrupt, and its because the US military's focus on build up is OTT and out of control, its good for the economy in the short term. but thats about it.