Why is the US always wrong?

[KoreBolteR]

I'm sorry, but which remote corner of the world hasn't been Americanized? It's kind of scary in some ways, but US culture is rapidly absorbing the whole world. In a 100 years I would be shocked if there was a country on the planet where you couldn't eat McD's, shop at Wal-Mart, and wear clothes from the Gap. And at the end of the day people will go home to watch Friends reruns, which will be in sindication for all eternity (wasn't that one of the signs of the apocolypse? )

I think at this point Pax Americana is inevitable. That doesn't mean other cultures will be wiped out, only that Indians will look at a Hindu temple while eating at Denny's and discussing last weeks Law & Order (on it's 51st cast).

yup, and also japan and china are acting more American in the last few years. Before long everycountry will take americas way of living, and adopt it for themselves.. laughing off claims that they got it from the US.

 

[Hapless]

it did for america


So logically it stands to reason that those behind 9/11 are in iraq and not afghanistan ...why else would their be a disporportionate number of troops in iraq? oh silly me you said the war on terror didnt start with osama .. but there was no terrorism in iraq before you invaded ..welll that's not entirely true because there was indeed state sponsored terrorism ..but hey you supported that so that doesnt count

It did for America? What? Remember the WTC bombing in 93? And, praytell, how did we support state sponsored terrorism? Because we were allied with Iraq against Iran? We allied with the Soviets during WW2, so that means we support totalitarian communism? Ever heard the phrase, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend?" Furthermore, I never said the War on Terror didn't start with Osama. Indeed it did. But what you seem to believe is that terrorism=Osama, and once he's out of the picture, all will be just dandy. There was global terrorism before 9/11, and there will be when Osama is a grease stain in the desert.

 

[MilkMan12]

MilkMan, your argument presumes that the USA is benevolent in its actions, but history says otherwise. Do I need to list off the amount of tyrannical dictators the US has propped up/supported/done business with? Do you really need somebody to explain US involvement in past conflicts?



Well, Jesus. I wonder why that is. My personal theory is that it's because the benevolent spread of freedom has always been absent from the #1 spot in the list of its motives.

Oh cmon dude you do it better. Because I see nobody else "showing us how its done". People only tell us how its done like they ****ing know exactly what to do. IF YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO THEN DAMN WELL DO IT INSTEAD OF COMPLAIN.

The US made some terrible mistakes, what the **** is wrong with that? Unfortuanately the world aint perfect and neither is the US. We made some small mistakes weve made some big ones but no one recognizes the people dancing in the streets of Iraq because they voted.

 

[The Monkey]

Oh cmon dude you do it better. Because I see nobody else "showing us how its done". People only tell us how its done like they ****ing know exactly what to do. IF YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO THEN DAMN WELL DO IT INSTEAD OF COMPLAIN.

The US made some terrible mistakes, what the **** is wrong with that? Unfortuanately the world aint perfect and neither is the US. We made some small mistakes weve made some big ones but no one recognizes the people dancing in the streets of Iraq because they voted.

This is, in fact, how many dictators you have supported/put in office:


Abacha, General Sani, Nigeria
Amin, Idi, Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo, Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio, Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal, Brunei
Botha, P.W., South Africa
Branco, General Humberto, Brazil
Cedras, Raoul, Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio, Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek, Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo, Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo, El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn, Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel, Liberia
Duvalier, Francois, Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude, Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King, Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco, Spain
Hassan II, Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand, Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez, El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko, Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel, Panama
Ozal, Turgut, Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza, Iran
Papadopoulos, George, Greece
Park Chung Hee, South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto, Chile
Pol Pot, Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni, Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios, Guatemala
Salassie, Halie, Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira, Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr., Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr., Nicaragua
Smith, Ian, Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo, Paraguay
Suharto, General, Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas, Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael, Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed, Pakistan

The source of these names is highly uncertain, and you shouldn't rely much on them, but I think most of it is true.

 

[Absinthe]

Oh cmon dude you do it better. Because I see nobody else "showing us how its done". People only tell us how its done like they ****ing know exactly what to do. IF YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO THEN DAMN WELL DO IT INSTEAD OF COMPLAIN.

It would be ignorant for anybody to say how it should be done. And that's exactly what the USA is doing.

But here's what I think you should do. I think you should cut the bullshit and just admit that peace and freedom have rarely been your primary objective.

The US made some terrible mistakes, what the **** is wrong with that? Unfortuanately the world aint perfect and neither is the US. We made some small mistakes weve made some big ones but no one recognizes the people dancing in the streets of Iraq because they voted.

I personally think that any congratulations should be directed towards the Iraqi people, not the US occupation. Especially when considering all the other massive failures of the war so far. If Iraq is a stable and peaceful nation in 15 years, I'll tip my hat to the Bush administration.

Won't change the fact that thousands of troops and Iraqi civilians died over a lie.

 

[Absinthe]

Oh yeah, I also suggest you take a long good look at The_Monkey's post. You can't sit there and scream "WELL AT LEAST WE'RE TRYING FOR PEACE" when you contribute God knows how much suffering to the world.

 

[clarky003]

We made some small mistakes weve made some big ones

we? i didnt know you had a say in what goes on aside from voting.. seriously I can so tell your taking this personally, when it isnt personal atall, it's leader based critisim.

 

[CptStern]

This is, in fact, how many dictators you have supported/put in office:


Abacha, General Sani, Nigeria
Amin, Idi, Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo, Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio, Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal, Brunei
Botha, P.W., South Africa
Branco, General Humberto, Brazil
Cedras, Raoul, Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio, Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek, Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo, Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo, El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn, Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel, Liberia
Duvalier, Francois, Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude, Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King, Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco, Spain
Hassan II, Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand, Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez, El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko, Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel, Panama
Ozal, Turgut, Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza, Iran
Papadopoulos, George, Greece
Park Chung Hee, South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto, Chile
Pol Pot, Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni, Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios, Guatemala
Salassie, Halie, Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira, Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr., Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr., Nicaragua
Smith, Ian, Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo, Paraguay
Suharto, General, Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas, Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael, Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed, Pakistan

The source of these names is highly uncertain, and you shouldn't rely much on them, but I think most of it is true.

I recognise most of them (a rogues gallery of world despots and tyrants) ..although not sure of the Franco-US connection as he was facist

 

[The Monkey]

I recognise most of them (a rogues gallery of world despots and tyrants) ..although not sure of the Franco-US connection as he was facist

Yeah, I don't trust that source much, I found it on page 3 on a google search, but I belive most of it is correct. Originally Hitler was on that list too.

 

[burner69]

It did for America? What? Remember the WTC bombing in 93? And, praytell, how did we support state sponsored terrorism? Because we were allied with Iraq against Iran? We allied with the Soviets during WW2, so that means we support totalitarian communism? Ever heard the phrase, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend?" Furthermore, I never said the War on Terror didn't start with Osama. Indeed it did. But what you seem to believe is that terrorism=Osama, and once he's out of the picture, all will be just dandy. There was global terrorism before 9/11, and there will be when Osama is a grease stain in the desert.

Yeah the 93 bombings, just like the 01 plane attacks were carried out... because of US foreign policy. That tells ya something dosen't it.

And yes, global terrorism, this dark turban wearing shadow that has suddenly swept over the world, requiring us to go to war, requiring the US to ammend the patriot act (good luck with that), requring moral sense to take a dive out the window while we imprison, humiliate, torture, and murder innocent people.

So... of all the hundreds of people captured in the UK, of all the people from the US taken to Guantanimo bay, how many were charged? How many have we found out to actually be terrorists?

Well, in the UK, in 2003, zero. Out of over 600 innocent people taken from their family at gunpoint and imprisoned without a lawyer, none of them turned out to be terrorists.
I believe in America the same is happening.

Ever hear the phrase; "blowing something way out of the water to create panic and subsequently, power"?
You really think we would have got away with anything that's happened in the last few years without all this fuss about how terrorists are constantly trying to attack us for no reason other than jealousy (the US seems to have an ego problem, cuz the number of times I've been told either me, another lefty, or a terrorist is jealous of um) and the fact that they're 'evil doers'.

We want a reality check?
Life isn't peachy anywhere. The US has monumentally arsed up millions of people's lives, and on the flip side, helped many others.
These 'evil-doers' are not mindless red-eyed killers who are just green with envy of the west - they have motives that stem from very real and very disturbing truths that you rarely hear on the news.

Peace

 

[Llama]

this is an unfotunately endless debate....please someone close this before we start ww3.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Yeah, I don't trust that source much, I found it on page 3 on a google search, but I belive most of it is correct. Originally Hitler was on that list too.

dont trust any source.

I.M.O.

 

[Nofuture]

Is our President (no matter who he is) not often referred to as, "The Leader of the Free World?"

?? Have never heard this.

But I`ve heard e.g. Bush refering to himself as "a War president". "I make decisions ... with War on my mind", he explained.

 

[seinfeldrules]

I personally think that any congratulations should be directed towards the Iraqi people, not the US occupation. Especially when considering all the other massive failures of the war so far. If Iraq is a stable and peaceful nation in 15 years, I'll tip my hat to the Bush administration.

And this is why Bush has a chance to go down as one of the better Presidents of all time. If he can pass some domestic legislation that works over time he will look even better.

 

[dart321]

?? Have never heard this.

But I`ve heard e.g. Bush refering to himself as "a War president". "I make decisions ... with War on my mind", he explained.

I would hope so, considering we are in a war.

 

[Nofuture]

I would hope so, considering we are in a war.

Offensive wars and politics and Free World are for me contradictions.


Full quote:

“I’m a war president,” declared George W. Bush in a TV interview at the White House aired February 8 on NBC’s Meet the Press Sunday morning show. “I make decisions here in the Oval Office on foreign policy matters with war on my mind,” he continued. “ “And the American people need to know they got a president who sees the world the way it is.”

BBC: Mr Bush said he was a "war president" and the top issue for voters should be the use of American power in the world.


Oh, it's getting some better:

"I am a war president."
- President George W. Bush, Feb. 8. 2004
http://www.themilitant.com/2004/6807/680705.html

"Nobody wants to be the war president. I want to be the peace president."
- President George W. Bush, July 20 2004
http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-07/21/content_350353.htm

???


After Bush won elections second time, in a German forum I read such message: "What, they elected that clown again?!"
Seems to be true

 

[Absinthe]

And this is why Bush has a chance to go down as one of the better Presidents of all time. If he can pass some domestic legislation that works over time he will look even better.

That's entirely dependent on how Iraq is years from now.

Won't change my opinion of him.

 

[MilkMan12]

we? i didnt know you had a say in what goes on aside from voting.. seriously I can so tell your taking this personally, when it isnt personal atall, it's leader based critisim.

Wow dude you know thats not what I meant. This is the country I live in we are talking about but Im not taking this personally because I said we. Thats just a common way of speaking, when I say we I mean the US.

Even at that Im still right, someone here made a connection about how the people are our country. So yes I guess I could say we. Whatever Im done arguing about this. Its kinda pointless since I really cant change anybody here so there really is no point.

 

[Kebean PFC]

Its kinda pointless since I really cant change anybody here so there really is no point.

So true, i guess maybe the politics forum should be closed....

 

[Combine Elite]

Yep, that's right, many envy the US's powerful position.

I personally like the US very much, as a economic/political/military ally and also on a personal level (some of the oh-so-terrible culture). The few americans I met were great people!

What I don't like sometimes is just the seemingly blind faith some people have in the administration. Not only Bush that is...

So, regarding the topic: No, the US is not always wrong.

(I consider myself as a centrist btw)

People that think the US is a power for evil should stick thier head up their collective asses and fight for air. Many of these people's come from countries that were saved by one the US and the Commonwealth from certain death under a maniacal tyranny. re: Hitler and the Third Riech. Lest not we forget that certain people killed three thousand lives in a couple tall buildings. What the US and the 'West' was supposed to sit on their hands and hem and hah over what to do ? Sanctions against Osama and the Taliban ? We would still be debating it in the UN. Those of you that think there is no presence of the Al Queda and such in Iraq also need to have a reality check.

People should stop bashing the US and cowering before the likes of Osama, Saddam, Syria, North Korea and others to be sure. You know you think you are safe in your mid-European country or whereever you are. But you are not. Dont forget Spain. These idiots dont care who they hit , hence the crux of Terrorism. Reason enough for them would be that there is US money in Swiss banks. they are not fighting for 'ideals' as they like you to believe. They are stopping nothing short of a tyranny not unlike Hitler. I will use the Taliban again here as an example. Dont forget these shit mongers made a public sport out of executing women for in some cases 'speaking thier minds'.

You all need to do some serious study on what it is the US is fighting. And maybe you might just see the other side in this and not the Press evolved issues of the innocent world of Islam being subjucated by the EVIL USA.

 

[CptStern]

:upstare: hundreds of threads within these forums refute pretty much everything you've said ..I'd post it but I'm tired of regurgitating the same points over and over

 

[Combine Elite]

Really then reality is truly warped here. So there was no WW2 ? No taliban ? No Osama ? Only a bleeding heart fag liberal would say what you just did. And I am sure you have never read anything that did have too do with flowers and groovey music.

 

[Absinthe]

Only a bleeding heart fag liberal would say what you just did.

Grow up.

 

[CptStern]

Really then reality is truly warped here. So there was no WW2 ? No taliban ? No Osama ? Only a bleeding heart fag liberal would say what you just did. And I am sure you have never read anything that did have too do with flowers and groovey music.

well there goes what little credibility you had, welcome to the politics forum, enjoy your short stay





reported

 

[Edcrab]

I disagree with you, and I highly doubt anyone would call me a liberal. You've already been reported... not a good start.

I just don't think Iraq had much to do with the war on terror. I still maintain that Saddam did more than just speak in support of atrocities, but hell, we know for a fact that Iran and the Saudi's are a far greater supporter of international terrorism. We only went for Iraq because it was the easiest target. Oh, and because of the oil, but that's such an old argument it's not worth using.

As for tracking down Osama... we blew the living hell out of Afghanistan and still haven't found him. I've said it twice, but it's an irrefutable point- why did we repeatedly bomb settlements due to a "suspicion" they harboured a terrorist presence? Ground assaults, certainly, but the place was in a bad enough state as it was before we levelled it. It's almost as if we just wanted value for money so dropped as many bombs as we could.

 

[seinfeldrules]

It's almost as if we just wanted value for money so dropped as many bombs as we could.

That fails to explain why we are putting money back into the country in the form of a rebuilding process...

 

[Edcrab]

Oh, I'm happy we're rebuilding it- it's the right thing to do, considering how much effort we put into blowing it up.

Seriously, I think some of the methods employed in Afghanistan were horribly disproportionate. If anything, I find the repeated bombing just as abhorrent, if not more, than the campaign in Iraq.

 

[CptStern]

That fails to explain why we are putting money back into the country in the form of a rebuilding process...

sure it does