30 second anti-Bush ads.

[Korgoth]

Its really a waste of time to debate this kind of thing. Clearly 90% of everything being said is pure opinion, and even when confronted with factual evidence its hard to find a good response.

 

[ductonius]

I'll make it simple and I'll say it slowly: That is not what I'd call a coalition of 20+ nations.

Forgive my bluntness.

*GASP* We actually have a Smilie for Bush! :monkee:

Im sorry that you feel that smaller nations dont matter.

In any case, the coalition in Iraq has the US, Japan, the UK, Italy, Spain, South Korea and Australia, Denmark, The Netherlands, Hungary and Turkey on side. Thats 11 major first world nations, not the paltry four you listed.

In addition, Estonia, the Czech Republic and Slovakia while not being prominent nations, have first world economies similar to those in the above 11.

This brings the number of major or economically powerful nations in the coalition up to 14 while the prominent or economcially powerful antiwar nations stays stuck at 3 (France, Germany, Russia).

In any case, the smaller nations do matter to coalitions as a voice of support even if they cant make much of a contribution.

When the time came to declair aleigences, most of those willing to take a stand one way or another lined up beside the United States.

 

[Korgoth]

Here then, if you think lefties are brain washed by the media, just have a gander:

http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=608

And I was watching CNN today and they had two guys talking about free speech. And One was talking about protesters in TN. when Bush visited recently. The secret service told they protesters they had to leave the area where they were standing for saftey reasons for the president. Well the GWB showed up the secret service allowed people with pro Bush signs to stand in the exact same spot that the protesters were in. Just thought I would add that to.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I love how you say that, and then cite the media, and you believing them

I'm a socialist, but I don't oppose the war in Iraq.

 

[ductonius]

Here then, if you think lefties are brain washed by the media, just have a gander:

http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=608

And I was watching CNN today and they had two guys talking about free speech. And One was talking about protesters in TN. when Bush visited recently. The secret service told they protesters they had to leave the area where they were standing for saftey reasons for the president. Well the GWB showed up the secret service allowed people with pro Bush signs to stand in the exact same spot that the protesters were in. Just thought I would add that to.

Maybe the Secret Service was..... you know.... just doing ther job.

If you were in charge of protecting someone would you be more comfortable with a group of his supporters near him or a group of his opponents? In which group do you think it would be easier to spot someone who wants to take a shot at him? In which group is the croud more likely to look out for the president itself?

I think you know the answers to those ones.

In any case, at no time has it been a right to protest wherever you wanted. There have always been restrictions on such things especially when it comes to protecting the lives of leaders.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

wahay. Mrbadger I too am a socialist and I agree with the war in iraq. Aint many of us are there....

 

[Korgoth]

I love how you say that, and then cite the media, and you believing them

I'm a socialist, but I don't oppose the war in Iraq.

That was part of my point, notice how i said there were 2 guys on cnn one was pro one anti, never seen just anti, either pro only or both.

 

[Korgoth]

Maybe the Secret Service was..... you know.... just doing ther job.

If you were in charge of protecting someone would you be more comfortable with a group of his supporters near him or a group of his opponents? In which group do you think it would be easier to spot someone who wants to take a shot at him? In which group is the croud more likely to look out for the president itself?

I think you know the answers to those ones.

In any case, at no time has it been a right to protest wherever you wanted. There have always been restrictions on such things especially when it comes to protecting the lives of leaders.

Well i suppose some one could just as easily hide a gun while carrying a i love bush/cheney sign, as they could any other

 

[Korgoth]

wahay. Mrbadger I too am a socialist and I agree with the war in iraq. Aint many of us are there....

ooops one more thing, how can anyone be pro death and destruction? This world is such a backwards place I hate living in it. The idea that war can prevent war (which is what that war was about) is about the dumbest thing i've ever heard.

Edit: sorry about the triple post, i didn't see the other comments.. I would edit them but i don't think i can delete posts can i?

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

hey, hey!


I never said I supported the war because I like death and destruction. I find that statement offensive.

The reason I support the war is because it will actually help the Iraqi people in the long run. And if it does'nt they are still free from Saddam. I would prefere freedom to saddams regime any day. And don't say I would'nt because of blah blah blah.

Notice how when Britain gave away its collonies they loved it. They would have been beter off under our rule economically wise but they choose freedom.




Another thing, this war wasnt about preventing war at all anyway. It was about oil and popularity for Bush with people in his own country.
People in America hate Saddam. + they were promised lower fuel prices when Bush came to power. Well, he got two birds with one stone....









Little fact for you though...
If America had spent the money they used in Iraq elsewhere they could have given water to everyone who needed it on the entire planet.
How you can defend a country with patriotic style defience that does something like that, that I can not understand....

No I don't think my country is any beter (UK). I don't think any/many countries would do it. But this is why I hate patriotism. There is nothing to be patriotic about anymore. The world is too f*cked up.

 

[Korgoth]

No you said you support war, any war doesn't matter, is death and destruction. (even an economic sanctioned war leads to hunger famine and disease, thus death.) Sorry to offend, but maybe i'm offended by war? think of that? Sure it will help the iraqi people in the long run, but actually that has yet to be seen, For all we know a tyrant the likes of which the iraqi people have never seen could take power and kill millions we don't know yet. You know what, you've changed my mind, all of you. I love George Bush, he is the smartest man alive if you think about it. Put on the mask of dumb ignorance, rule by fear, and you can get millions to follow your word religously. Its his crusade hes done a damn good job in the name of god. Right now on the tv behind me tom ridge of homeland security is telling me how the fear level is dropping a point, they must have signed patriot 2, no reason to keep the people in the dark now.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

(no offense marksman im just trying to make my point as im sure you are as well, hope you don't have hard feelings i didin't mean you specifically it just came out that way)

So lets let freedom ring, especially here in the free'est neation on earth right next to our stepped up police and military presence, our anti aircraft missle batteries and our expanded laws allowing secret searches and seizures without judicial knowledge for the FBI, lets ban smoking, lets destroy evil plants that were here years before us, and lets tell our people to enjoy their freedom of speech, cuz it doesn't mean a thing in this day and age.

 

[ductonius]

Well i suppose some one could just as easily hide a gun while carrying a i love bush/cheney sign, as they could any other

Sure, but that falls under the principal of "you can never stop a really determined assassin" The fact of the matter is that the chances of someone in a pro-bush croud attacking are much less than someone attacking from an anit-bush croud.

This is why they allow the President to wade through throngs of his supporters at rallys and keep angry protestor far, far away whenever hes around.

 

[gh0st]

:upstare: innervision, many people cant be pursuaded by normal diplomatic channels

bush tried to get the UN to help him out, he tried to make the reasonable diplomatic assertions but saddam would have nothing of it. he got exactly what he deserved.

besides, as we've established war is bad, but its necessary too.

and that site, could just as easily be made up. i could say not one civilian died in iraq, and some might believe it. i could say 100000 died, and some would believe it.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

I by no means support war in general. But I can't see any other ways in which the Iraqs would be better off in the long run with saddam still there.

I just wish people in this world would be less greedy and thick at the same time. Dictatorships piss me off....




Oh and don't worry too much about offending me. I realise people have strong views on subjects like this, normally I don't take part. I don't enjoy argueing when I know no one can win because peoples views are allways set in stone. The more you argue the deeper they believe. And few if any people trully know all the facts.

 

[Korgoth]

True true, good points all around guys, well i'm off for a while thanks for the debate.

 

[gh0st]

I by no means support war in general. But I can't see any other ways in which the Iraqs would be better off in the long run with saddam still there.

maybe they wont be needlessly raped tortured killed opressed and slaughtered. :angry:

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Thats what I was saying........

 

[gh0st]

holy schamoly... i'm away for a few weeks and all hell breaks loose!!! i especially liked badgers 68 threats to close the thread.. way to impose your will MOD that and GV emphatically agreeing ("HELL YEAH!!!") with a 15 yr old (no offense waedoe). :|

i used to like to weigh in on sophomoric "political" discussions like these. but, increasingly, i find it difficult to be entertained by people regurgitating something they lapped up off of this website or that; or turning themselves into avatars, siphoning the will of the various media machinery they've come to trust implicitly. it's a sad state to be sure; where shall i find pleasure now? ;(

welp, that's all i've got to say.. there are so many ways to argue against stances like some of you have taken (not that many of them qualify as stances), but no one cares. just keep ignoring the world around you and let others do your thinking for you.. thinking is hard. to wit, i'll end this with several quotes so that i don't have to think too much:

"they that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-benjamin franklin (some commie america-hating liberal if you ask me)

"The media are a pitiful lot. They don't give us any history, they don't give us any analysis, they don't tell us anything. They don't raise the most basic questions: Who has the most weapons of mass destruction in the world by far? Who has used weapons of mass destruction more than any other nation? Who has killed more people in this world with weapons of mass destruction than any other nation?"
-howard zinn (now i don't know who he is, but i bet zinn is talking about iraq!!!)

"I have the greatest admiration for your propaganda. Propaganda in the West is carried out by experts who have had the best training in the world -- in the field of advertizing -- and have mastered the techniques with exceptional proficiency ... Yours are subtle and persuasive; ours are crude and obvious ... I think that the fundamental difference between our worlds, with respect to propaganda, is quite simple. You tend to believe yours ... and we tend to disbelieve ours."
– Soviet correspondent based five years in the U.S. (you better believe it Red.. chalk another one up for AMERICA!)

“The loud little handful will shout for war. The pulpit will warily and cautiously protest at first.... The great mass of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes, and will try to make out why there should be a war, and they will say earnestly and indignantly: "It is unjust and dishonorable and there is no need for war. Then the few will shout even louder.... Before long you will see a curious thing: anti-war speakers will be stoned from the platform, and free speech will be strangled by hordes of furious men who still agree with the speakers but dare not admit it... Next, the statesmen will invent cheap lies...and each man will be glad of these lies and will study them because they soothe his conscience; and thus he will bye and bye convince himself that the war is just and he will thank God for a better sleep he enjoys by his self-deception.”
– Mark Twain (umm, that was too long for me to read at once, i'm not sure if he's a commie or not)

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power.”
– Benito Mussolini (halliburton? bechtel? who says we don't learn from history?)

“It would be easy for us, if we do not learn to understand the world and appreciate the rights, privileges and duties of all other countries and peoples, to represent in our power the same danger to the world that Fascism did.”
– Ernest Hemingway (thank god that dirty, secular, cross-dressing liberal died like a hundred years ago or whatever)

“The efficiency of the truly national leader consists mainly of preventing the people's attention from becoming divided, and of always concentrating it on a single enemy.”
– Adolf Hitler (yeah well you're lucky terrorism came along hitler, otherwise you'd still have americas boot solidly buried in your commie ass!! w00t!)

“Neither the foreign head of state (the Shah) nor the President nor Dr. Kissinger desired a victory for our clients (the Kurds). They merely hoped to ensure a level of hostilities high enough to sap the resources of the neighbouring state (Iraq). Even in the context of covert action, ours was a cynical enterprise.”
– US Congressional Pike Report, describing President Nixon and US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's policy of arming the Kurds, 1972 (booyah! take that you damn terrorist kurds!)

i'm done in several ways.

oohhh great, timmys here. i cant believe im being insulted by this :monkee: because of my age. what does age have to do with anything? who exactly is the one siphoning off anything? youre just "regurgitating" quotes from world leaders.

i find that people on the opposite end of ones political spectrum say these things because theyare simply too stupid to present an argument.

dont insult my political views, and i wont insult yours. i may be 15 but i still can have an opinion, if you dont want to listen to it gtfo.

theres nothing sophmoric about that, jackass.

 

[gh0st]

Another thing, this war wasnt about preventing war at all anyway. It was about oil and popularity for Bush with people in his own country.

sorry then, i must have misinterpreted you for some reason.

 

[waedoe]

looks like the left is getting dominated something fierce.

 

[gh0st]

yeah thank god we have a president that wont let an innocent people get annhialated by a tyrannical leader, or isnt too (read COWARDLY to face up to big problems.

 

[Korgoth]

waedoe: looks like the left is getting dominated something fierce.

Um please point me to one helpful constructive comment that you have made in this entire thread, if you can do that, then you can make comments like this, otherwise no one is listening.

ghostohhh great, timmys here. i cant believe im being insulted by this because of my age. what does age have to do with anything? who exactly is the one siphoning off anything? youre just "regurgitating" quotes from world leaders.

i find that people on the opposite end of ones political spectrum say these things because theyare simply too stupid to present an argument.

dont insult my political views, and i wont insult yours. i may be 15 but i still can have an opinion, if you dont want to listen to it gtfo.

theres nothing sophmoric about that, jackass.

Those people timmy is regurgitating quotes from are infinatly more intellegent than anyone on this forum so your come back was pretty lame.

maybe they wont be needlessly raped tortured killed opressed and slaughtered.

Oh right, Saddam raped everyone and killed everyone himself, ha, the majority of people in his armed forces commited these acts, wether he told them to or not they are still there and they will still commit these crimes, plus outside terrorists are now killing iraqis, not to mention the innocents that died during the war.

ghost: yeah thank god we have a president that wont let an innocent people get annhialated by a tyrannical leader, or isnt too (read COWARDLY to face up to big problems.

hahahah GWB isn't a coward? Oh man do some research please: Look at his military records for crying out loud, this guy flew out of date planes to avoid the war, and went awol shortly after. What a joke.

Oh well I guess a crack head alcholic isn't really a coward, he is just misunderestimated

 

[ComradeBadger]

Getting flamy.... warning... impending lock..

 

[gh0st]

ok even though your reply was worded horribly, here i go.

as for draft dodging coward, http://www.urbin.net/EWW/polyticks/bc-rotc.html

as for the intelligence of those world leaders... it doesnt matter, its still NOT HIS words thus HE IS REGURGITATING SOMETHING ELSE. it was a comeback to saying that i regurgitated stuff, which isnt true

Oh right, Saddam raped everyone and killed everyone himself, ha, the majority of people in his armed forces commited these acts, wether he told them to or not they are still there and they will still commit these crimes, plus outside terrorists are now killing iraqis, not to mention the innocents that died during the war.

i dont see nearly as many news reports of rapings now. do you? yeah, i thought not.

 

[Korgoth]

hahaha worded horribly? Misunderestimated is actually a word bush himself came up with, you think i'm on crack no sorry bush has also been arrested for this not me, they website you provided? urbin.net? Am i supposed to believe it, i'm not even going to bother. And i never saw any news reports on raping in iraq before the war so what.

EDIT: ok i went to the website you supplied, what the hell does bill clinton have to do with this? I never brought him up so your logic doesn't make sense to me.

 

[gh0st]

hahaha worded horribly? Misunderestimated is actually a word bush himself came up with, you think i'm on crack no sorry bush has also been arrested for this not me, they website you provided? urbin.net? Am i supposed to believe it, i'm not even going to bother. And i never saw any news reports on raping in iraq before the war so what.

whether you believe it or not its still clintons article to "draft dodge"

there were no news reports because the news wasent actively engaged with iraq at the time. andyou know they committed, there has been thousands of victems come otu against saddam.

and if that links not good enough for you, maybe PBS is

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/etc/draftletter.html

 

[gh0st]

EDIT: ok i went to the website you supplied, what the hell does bill clinton have to do with this? I never brought him up so your logic doesn't make sense to me.

just saying all presidents are cowards in some ways.

 

[Korgoth]

But still that link talks about Bill Clinton! I didn't bring him up, where does he fit into this discussion, I could really care less. Clinton isn't the one the got us into Iraq. And I dion't like Clinton either, he is a lying scum bag, and he has had people "dealt" with during his terms. I don't side with him, he is crooked. But my point is, he wasn't being discussed Bush is. Guess who else draft dodged, yep howard dean, but i don't care, he has an anti war stance. So thats better than being a hypocrit (bush) Look i've said it before this is my opinion you don't have to believe what i believe, or see the way i see. I will achknowledge right now, Bush is good for some and not others. I respect your view.

EDIT: ok I didn't understand why you brought him up yeah clinton was a coward too.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

God, they even take patriotism to the extremes. Idiotism beyond repair.

And guess what Ghost, I am republican and I hate Bush with passion. Uh, ah, or I can’t be republic and hate Bush at the same time?

I didn't mean that. I was addressing political stances along with typical sides.
Not all Republicans agree with Bush. And not all Democrats are liberal. I was merely stating some issues. Sorry If I seemed to have stereotyped anyone.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

don't consider this a personal attack gh0st, b/c it's not, but you really should look into developing a sense of humor (in regards to my last post...)

 

[Lil' Timmy]

everyone can have an opinion, and it's good that they express it. just don't be so offended when someone who is more worldly and learned expresses a bit of cynicism towards your opinions. you talk about the french being hypocrites and cowards, but have you ever lived in france? what are you basing that opinion on anyway? i've lived in france.. i speak french.. i eat french toast.. and so on..

wtf do you know about what the iraqi people have been through? i lived in pakistan also, so i have some perspective on the muslim east. and while pakistanis are not arabs, i've done quite a bit a research on the political instabilities of the region. i'm not so sure that a fragmented sunni-shia-kurd civil-war ridden iraq will be so much better in the long run than saddam's tyranny. i know it's tantamount to blsphemy to even mention, but let's let a few years get under iraq's belt before we declare the fall of the bathists as an unmittigated success. you know, the taliban rose out of a failed state.. a failed state like iraq is on the verge of becoming. have fun explaining how post-saddm iraq is better to those iraqis who keep losing loved ones in bombings on mosques in baghdad. it's a complex world, and nothing is ever so black-and-white.

innervision is right though. these are not discussions in the true meaning of the word, because the vast majority of us (myself included probably), are simply here to see how well our particular beliefs are recieved by other forumers, not to objectively argue any point.

gh0st, since you answered the call that wasn't there (it was directed at GV via waedoe). let it be said that i think the majority of people (i hope!) .. mature.. a bit from the age of 15 to their 20s and 30s. i'm 27, so i'm no greyed elder or anything, buit i can certainly acknowledge that i'm a tad wiser now than i was a 15. if you at 15 have learned/experienced more than i, i'd happily conceed that you may have more ground to speak on these things than i.

 

[Zeus]

If I hated USA, I sure wouldn’t be living here.

Good because if you hated the USA, we sure wouldn't want you living here.

 

[crabcakes66]

i would be in support of spending any number of dollars securing myself against terrorists.

Then you are an idiot.


.... you let terror dictate your decisions. You are afraid.

This is exactly what the rightwing government and military want. Control through fear.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Hmmmmm

I've stayed very much out of this, except to warn, but I feel that most people here actually have a good point

But people attacking each other personally... hmmm, thats arguing to the person, and a very weak form of arguing....

Anyway. I was pro-the-war... and I still stand by that. I undestand that not everyone is a populist, but unfortunatly thats the impression the majority of the anti-Bush camp give off...

 

[gh0st]

Then you are an idiot.


.... you let terror dictate your decisions. You are afraid.

This is exactly what the rightwing government and military want. Control through fear.

sorry im such an idiot. i really do not want another 9/11.




ive eaten french toast too timmy, and i have been to france for longer than a week. i dont like the culture, just like many of them dont like mine, and yes many americans would view them as cowardly, conniving [a la iraq war], etc.

im sure this will get the thread closed, but you are a real concieted bastard.

"just don't be so offended when someone who is more worldly and learned"

what the hell is that? how does you being 27 and my being 15 have any bearing upon my intelligence over yours? you're so damn learned that half of all the words in your filth are typos. you think you're the ONLY one that has done their research on middle eastern politics? it IS black and white in this case. there is GOOD which is the united states, and BAD which is saddam hussein.

people talk like this is supposed to be over like *snap* that. its NOT. the united states wasent forged in a year, was it? was any country? no. the taliban may well have risen from a broken state, but they sure dont look broken now. they have a democratic constitution and the former nomadic clans are MAKING something of themselves with the help of the united states. so has japan, germany, and a host of other countries.

wtf do YOU know about what the iraqi people have gone through. pakistan is a veritble heaven compared to what iraq was. personal freedom increases immensely in pakistan. i DO know what (like i said earlier) 1) the iraqi people have TOLD us and 2) media images.

i'm not so sure that a fragmented sunni-shia-kurd civil-war ridden iraq will be so much better in the long run than saddam's tyranny.

what civil war? you make the attempt to sound intelligent here but you fail miserably when you realize that big words dont always work, and that there IS no "civil war" in iraq right now. the fact is there will be no civil war because... oh wait.. the united states is there, and is essentially their lifeline to survival right now. frankly, good, if it sits them down and forces them to compromise. i assume youd say "but what happens when we leave" well like the liberals always say, this war's about oil right?

.. mature.. a bit from the age of 15 to their 20s

mature? id say my views are notably more mature than many other 15-20 year olds, who do nothing more than spit out what their friends and family shove down their throat.

 

[crabcakes66]

sorry im such an idiot. i really do not want another 9/11.

and you think any americans or our allies do? why dont we just close our borderes down and declare marshall law.

lets nuke any country that looks at us wrong.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Honest to god I don't know why you lot argue so much. Its not like your gona change anything here is it!


Just try to get on with each other. Its very easy to make enemies on the net and its not much fun having to deal with them later in every other thread where you see something that offends.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.



One small thing gh0st. Just because they didn't go to war with us in iraq does'nt make the french people cowardly. Maybe the leaders... but not the people. This is why I hate steriotypeing. Because steriotypes are so confrontational and incorrect most of the time.
Even then the French were being sensible. They had nothing to gain from the war and it would have gotten done just as quick without them. The only countries who took part are those who have something to gain. Sorry, but its true.





bah, I am tired. Can't be arsed to reply to all these flames anymore. Today has been very confrontational on the forums hasn't it.... ;(

 

[gh0st]

Even then the French were being sensible. They had nothing to gain from the war and it would have gotten done just as quick without them. The only countries who took part are those who have something to gain. Sorry, but its true.


bah, I am tired. Can't be arsed to reply to all these flames anymore. Today has been very confrontational on the forums hasn't it.... ;(

fine last post. the first part isnt true, france, russia and germany all had a lot to lose by this war mainly in oil and weapon/vehicle contracts. and ok, ill take that back. french leaders are cowardly.

either way i wont respond to crabcakes thing because its rediculous. :dork:

 

[crabcakes66]

fine last post. the first part isnt true, france, russia and germany all had a lot to lose by this war mainly in oil and weapon/vehicle contracts. and ok, ill take that back. french leaders are cowardly.

either way i wont respond to crabcakes thing because its rediculous. :dork:

its no more rediculous than anything you have said....so i guess you got my point

 

[Lil' Timmy]

admittedly i was assuming that i am more worldly and experienced than a 15 year-old, and generally that's a safe assumption. i don't think it's conceited, just a statement of probability. in this case, i think i was right in my assumption. most americans would view the french as cowardly? why is that do you think? is anyone idealogically opposed to the war a coward? there are a lot of things about 'most americans' that aren't exactly brilliant. i shouldn't pick any bones with a 15 yr-old, but since you seem up for it..

the united states is universally good? well, i can't see how any thinking person could believe such a thing, given the history of the US and the history of the people running the current administration (cheney, wolfowitz, rumsfield, bremmer, etc). perhaps you meant the US is wholely "good" in this particular iraq situation. again, look at the people running things and their history in the region.

the fundamental point of dissagreement here is the premise that anything could ever be exactly black and white in international politics (or anything really). take post-war afghanistan, where you see tribes 'making something of themselves' (a rather loaded phrase..), others might see the persitance and growing power of the warlords and the opium trade, threatening to turn post-war afghanistan into pre-war afghanistan again.. iraq is not postww2 germany or japan, the fact that there were zero post-war american combat causalties in germany, japan, hell even bosnia, should tell you that they are not exactly comparable cases. there are iraqis who have "TOLD" us they liked the rule of saddam better than the chaos of now, do you disregard that?

how do you know that pakistan is a 'heaven' compared to pre-war iraq? what possible basis do you have for that statement? what about iran? i lived there too (though not as long, only a little over a month).

also, if you pay attention, you'd notice that iraq is well on it's way to becoming the fractured state i made reference too. if you think the sunnis and shias will live happily together once the americans leave (not to mention the kurds), then maybe you should live in a muslim country for a while to get some perspective. throwing the owership of oil into the mix doesn't exactly stabalize things, usually.

marksman, you're too squemish i don't think there's much flaming going on here, besides the occaisional "conceited bastard" or "idiot".

as far as the age thing goes gh0st, don't sweat it. i'd just encourage you to look back when you're older and consider if you think you've matured.

edit: oh looks like you've made your last post. oh well, nothing i said is that worthy of response anyway.