Abortion - Should it be legal?

[Ghost Freeman]

It should be legal. Overpopulation is a big concern IMO.

 

[Fat Tony!]

However overpopulation is defainly not an issue in MEDC from where most of you people are from

 

[Pro[pH]et]

There are plenty of options out there for women who are pregnant and don't want a baby. I don't care the age of the mother. The child deserves to live. Don't tell me what the mother deserves or has a right to. If abortion was viewed only from the perspective of the child it would be illegal very quickly. The problem is it has turned into a woman's right to her body. Too many people only want to look at it from the woman's point of view. Why is that? Because the baby has no voice. It is truely a silent victum. A babies heart is beating at 7 weeks. Most people don't find out they are pregnant till 5 or 6 weeks.

Only a moron says, "the world is too full anyway". If you really feel that way then do us all a favor and kill yourself. That makes as much sense as saying population control is a good use for abortion.

Abortion is nothing more than legalized murder for convenience. Very seldom is abortion done to protect the mother.

If Roe vs Wade happened today with the medical capability we have abortion would be illegal.

[forest gump]that's all I got to say about that[/forest gump]

 

[JimmehH]

I think the current laws on abortion are good (in the UK; I don't know the US laws). Abortions are allowed up to 24 weeks in to the pregnancy. Perhaps incidentally, it is only after approximately 26 weeks that the baby is capable of survival outside the womb.

Don't forget that the woman's medical history and the risk to physical or mental health (of both the abortion and the pregnancy) is taken into account before a decision is made. It is not, contrary to what some people seem to think, a decision that is made lightly.

 

[|Ben|]

I think the woman should have a choice if she wants to or not.

 

[Yakuza]

It should be legal. Overpopulation is a big concern IMO.

Why not start with the elderly? or menatly hadicap. I mean if we are going start this kind of mentality why not get rid of those who realy cant offer much to society as it is.

 

[Yakuza]

He doesn't mean that the baby is not human if the brain is underdeveloped or only partially developed... but still active.

I think he means that, for about the first 10 weeks (I'd have to look it up... it's been a while since I studied fetal development) of pregnancy, the brain has not actually been turned on yet. The organs are almost formed, but they do not work.

The fetus is being kept alive solely by the mother.

but it is alive right?

It has no thoughts, no pain, no consciousness, not even the most basic/automatic functions of the brain (like breathing and pumping the heart) have started... unlike someone in a coma or someone that has an underdeveloped brain. At that point, the fetus is just a baby-shaped clump of cells. At that point, it is no more alive than a plant.

I'm still undecided on abortion... but I think that's what he meant.

There are a lot of people who are full grown that fit that definition. the are hooked up to breathing machines and things that keep the heart working, who are living soley on that fact that a machine keeps them living. They really are not much more than a mass of cells sitting on a bed. oh yeah they call it a state of vegitation.

 

[Jakeic]

it is a woman's right to choose.

 

[Yakuza]

it is a woman's right to choose.

Says who?

 

[OCybrManO]

There are a lot of people who are full grown that fit that definition. the are hooked up to breathing machines and things that keep the heart working, who are living soley on that fact that a machine keeps them living. They really are not much more than a mass of cells sitting on a bed. oh yeah they call it a state of vegitation.

Even when people are comatose to the point of being called "brain dead" (a "vegetable," if you will) and are kept on life support there is still a small portion of the brain that remains active. That's where the controversy comes from. The families think, because there is some activity, that there is still some chance for the person to wake up... even if everyone tells them otherwise. If the brain is completely dead (100% nonfunctional... no activity whatsoever) they usually don't keep the body alive (possibly making exceptions to keep the organs fresh for transplants). If they did that there would probably be thousands of people on life support indefinately. You could even keep a decapitated man "alive" for a while by that definition... but why? I mean, the brain doesn't regenerate. If it's partially functional it can shift jobs from one section to another (to a degree)... but once the brain is completely dead, it's dead for good.

but it is alive right?

If a tree or a potato can be said to be alive... then, yes, it is definately alive. Do you eat vegetables? They have to be "killed" so you can eat... and so do cows. The difference is that the cow has an active brain. The cow feels pain. The cow is knows it is alive. The cow has emotions. Once the baby's brain is activated I am 100% against abortion (that leaves plenty of time to be tested after rape or other situations involving unwanted pregnancies)... but I'm still leaning toward pro-choice if the brain isn't being used yet. One big thing I have against making abortion unconditionally legal before a certain part of development is that people might start casually having unprotected sex because "Oh, I can just abort it."

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Once the baby's brain is activated I am 100% against abortion (that leaves plenty of time to be tested after rape or other situations involving unwanted pregnancies)... but I'm still leaning toward pro-choice if the brain isn't being used yet. One big thing I have against making abortion unconditionally legal before a certain part of development is that people might start casually having unprotected sex because "Oh, I can just abort it."

that last contention seems a bit far-fetched to me.. i mean, it's not like having an abortion is a day in the park. but you're on a bit of a 'slippery-slope' when you talk about the activity of a babies brain. what do you mean by "activated"? is this something you suppose can be determined individually, on a case-by-case basis? or are you just taking some sort of average.. and then letting the babies that fall outside of the tolerances be casualties of statistics?

i think you're going to have to find a better criterion than brain activity in utero. the idea of "will the fetus survive outside the womb?" seems like a good starting point.

 

[Jmechy]

If you care at all about this subject, and have never read the Thomson argument, i suggest you do so. It is a few pages long, but I have a feeling it will change the way you think about this issue.

http://www.utdallas.edu/~jfg021000/thomson.html

Did ANYONE that thinks it should be illegal bother to read this article? Or does nobody care to see a different perspective?

 

[Lil' Timmy]

lol jmechy.. i read it (but i think it should be legal to begin with)

 

[Jakeic]

Says who?

says the united states.

i read it, but i am pro-choice.

 

[Jack_Karverboy]

No, its evil! How could anyone kill their little babies? White women arent even having babies anyway, they are afraid of having babies because it makes them fatter :| If they are having babies, its because they are too poor to kill them. Know what abortion is? Its a doctor cutting a woman open and chopping the baby up then sucking the body parts out with a tube, isnt that nasty?

 

[Pro[pH]et]

Perhaps incidentally, it is only after approximately 26 weeks that the baby is capable of survival outside the womb.

That is incorrect. A baby can be born as early as 20 weeks.

 

[Yakuza]

says the united states.

i read it, but i am pro-choice.

The united states also said slavery was legal too but that doesn't make it right.

 

[Burn]

It should be illigal, that way when an underage teenage has a kid, she is forced to ruin her life and the childs life!

>_> It should be legal!

 

[Yakuza]

Did ANYONE that thinks it should be illegal bother to read this article? Or does nobody care to see a different perspective?

In this case, of course, you were kidnapped; you didn't volunteer for the operation that plugged the violinist into your kidneys. Can those who oppose abortion on the ground I mentioned make an exception for a pregnancy due to rape? Certainly. They can say that persons have a right to life only if they didn't come into existence because of rape; or they can say that all persons have a right to life, but that some have less of a right to life than others, in particular, that those who came into existence because of rape have less. But these statements have a rather unpleasant sound. Surely the question of whether you have a right to life at all, or how much of it you have, shouldn't turn on the question of whether or not you are the product of a rape. And in fact the people who oppose abortion on the ground I mentioned do not make this distinction, and hence do not make an exception in case of rape.

The funny thing is, I have a hard time believeing if any one really found themself in this situation would actualy pull the plug and kill the violinist.

Rape is a terrible thing, but I dont see why an innocent child should die because of another persons criminal activity. She could put the child up for adoption.

It was a little over a year ago when my mother told me that before I was born she had two abortions. She was weaping when she told me. Its been over 25 years and it still haunts her. This was hard for me to see cry like that because my mom is a strong women. Its also kind creepy to think that you could just have easily been the next to be aborted.

I know quite a few women who have had abortions, and they all seem racked with guilt over it.

And the thing I find interesting is that when asked, what do you think would have happened if you keept the baby, all of the women said that they would love that baby and care for it.

I think this is why abortion is so much more "popular" than adoption. Because if you can justify that the baby isn't really a baby than killing wont be so bad. However from what I have seen this isn't the case. From the women who have given their kids up for adoption they still hope that the child is with parents who can take care of the baby and that the babies are safe, but with abortion there is nothing but guilt.

 

[Yakuza]

It should be illigal, that way when an underage teenage has a kid, she is forced to ruin her life and the childs life!

>_> It should be legal!

Ruin...oh so you have had a child at a young age right. While I admit have a child early can put some damper on plans you might have had for your life, there are options. Again putting up for adoption is better than killing it. Also most problems that a young mom is going to have existed before the child was born, like poverty. Even then when some one in America lives in Poverty they general have 2-3 bedroom houses with at least 1-2 cars. And I would like to see your definition of "Ruin". I mean there are lot of children living in wealthy homes who dont have a "life" and dont know there parents. Yet in some of the poverty stricken areas of our country especialy with in the mexiacn community there are family bonds that put a lot of us to shame. Families who really care for one another, take care of one another. I wouldn't call this ruin.

Besides, I had a child in highschool. I now have my own buisness and putting my wife through college. I dont consider my life ruined, in fact I consider it the complete opposite.

But then again I allways considered the responsibily when I chose to start having sex.

In fact I think the overall majority of abortions are by teenage girls who chose to start having sex but chose not to deal with the responsibilities of sex.

 

[Fat Tony!]

You have to think of it like this: what value can you put on a unborn chid? What value do you put on life itself?
It depends on the mother's beliefs to whether you have a child or not. You dont kill a child you kill a blob of cells. You dont have sex to have babies anymore, there can be mixed reasons to do it so there is no "reponsibillity" anymore being careful is obvious, its like taking up a hobby of climbing cliffs if you dont use a safety harness then your taking a risk and nothing is foolproof. Your a fool not to use a condom anyway since you can also get Sexually transmitted diseases.

 

[Asus]

I feel aportion should be illegal.
If someone becomes pregnant not by choice or in an undesirable situation then the mother should still have the baby. Put it up for adoption perhaps. Selfish motives should not come first and taking a life should not be the case.

 

[CptStern]

I feel aportion should be illegal.
If someone becomes pregnant not by choice or in an undesirable situation then the mother should still have the baby. Put it up for adoption perhaps. Selfish motives should not come first and taking a life should not be the case.

there are many circumstances when the choice must be made spontaneously. example:

I have a 9 month old son ...when my wife was pregnant she took a test that would determine what chances we had that the baby would be born with specific problems: they give you odds, nothing is absolute. When we received the results we were a little worried: we had a 1 in 200 chance that the child would be born with Downs Syndrome. Now that seems rather high but actually it's dangerously low ...the average is between 1 in 800 and above. We were given a choice: either we do a amniocentesis test (sticking a huge needle into the womb to extract amnio fluid) which had a 1 in 200 chance that the baby could miscarry because of the test, or we could do nothing and take our chances of 1 in 200 that the child would be born with DS. My wife has a colleage that had the same odds except she had twins ..one is severely handicapped and the other died during delivery

As a former educator (taught downs syndrome kids and adults fine arts) I'm more prepared than most when it comes to raising a child with a disability. Incidently my wife is a Autism Consultant and therapist so she sees this every day. Downs syndrome is a common enough mental disability that can affect people differently. There are some cases in where they can hold down jobs and live productive lives and others that need 24 care for the rest of their life (after you're dead who takes care of a disabled adult? ..usually costs between $3000 -$7000/month for care).

People with downs syndrome have shortened lifespans, the average person with DS dies before they hit 40 ..they are also prone to hearing, vision, and language (cleft palate or oversized tongue) problems. They usually have various developmental delays and usually have an IQ that's significantly below average. The majority of them are born with under developed hearts and many need surgury as soon as they are born. The heart problem lasts a lifetime as their hearts never quite grow at the same rates as their bodies.


that all said ..when I heard that my son might be born with downs syndrome I seriously considered abortion (before you jump on me, the decision was based on the quality of life my child could have not based on selfish reasons) ...we had exactly 10 days to decide if we would get an abortion. We decided that if he was born with DS there were couldnt be parents more qualified than we are. We decided to take our chances (the amniocentesis test wasnt even a choice for us because the odds were way too high that we would miscarry). Even though I chose not to abort I'm glad I have a choice


btw my son does not have downs syndrome and is a healthy happy baby

 

[Sprafa]

Depends on the country.


Portugal needs a natalist policy, therefore, no.
China needs an an antinatalist policy, therefore yes.

 

[JimmehH]

That is incorrect. A baby can be born as early as 20 weeks.

Yes, but the chances of survival are very low and the chances of health problems are very high.

 

[Hazar]

It should be illegal.

Just like murder is.

Adoption is a much better option.

 

[Burn]

Hunter, you cant kill a kid just cus its going to be born with a birth defect! Jesus..

edit: Im replying to something said 5 pages ago, so just ya'll ignore me.

 

[CptStern]

Yes, but the chances of survival are very low and the chances of health problems are very high.

the chances are quite high that it will survive and have no health problems after the 24 th week (my son was born at 24 weeks - 3 pounds ...a bit larger than my hand) ...your likelihood of complications grows the more premature it is but it doesnt mean a full term baby cant be born without complications

 

[Fat Tony!]

I think the point is the either way you cant force anything on a mother therefore it can never really be illegal

 

[Jakeic]

Its also kind creepy to think that you could just have easily been the next to be aborted.

how is it any creepier than thinking of yourself dying? if anything, it'd be a lot easier to take than dying now, it's like being dead but you were never alive. In some cases that might be better than actually living.

 

[Yakuza]

there are many circumstances when the choice must be made spontaneously. example:

I have a 9 month old son ...when my wife was pregnant she took a test that would determine what chances we had that the baby would be born with specific problems: they give you odds, nothing is absolute. When we received the results we were a little worried: we had a 1 in 200 chance that the child would be born with Downs Syndrome. Now that seems rather high but actually it's dangerously low ...the average is between 1 in 800 and above. We were given a choice: either we do a amniocentesis test (sticking a huge needle into the womb to extract amnio fluid) which had a 1 in 200 chance that the baby could miscarry because of the test, or we could do nothing and take our chances of 1 in 200 that the child would be born with DS. My wife has a colleage that had the same odds except she had twins ..one is severely handicapped and the other died during delivery

As a former educator (taught downs syndrome kids and adults fine arts) I'm more prepared than most when it comes to raising a child with a disability. Incidently my wife is a Autism Consultant and therapist so she sees this every day. Downs syndrome is a common enough mental disability that can affect people differently. There are some cases in where they can hold down jobs and live productive lives and others that need 24 care for the rest of their life (after you're dead who takes care of a disabled adult? ..usually costs between $3000 -$7000/month for care).

People with downs syndrome have shortened lifespans, the average person with DS dies before they hit 40 ..they are also prone to hearing, vision, and language (cleft palate or oversized tongue) problems. They usually have various developmental delays and usually have an IQ that's significantly below average. The majority of them are born with under developed hearts and many need surgury as soon as they are born. The heart problem lasts a lifetime as their hearts never quite grow at the same rates as their bodies.


that all said ..when I heard that my son might be born with downs syndrome I seriously considered abortion (before you jump on me, the decision was based on the quality of life my child could have not based on selfish reasons) ...we had exactly 10 days to decide if we would get an abortion. We decided that if he was born with DS there were couldnt be parents more qualified than we are. We decided to take our chances (the amniocentesis test wasnt even a choice for us because the odds were way too high that we would miscarry). Even though I chose not to abort I'm glad I have a choice


btw my son does not have downs syndrome and is a healthy happy baby

I wounder how many people would have aborted my duaghter had they known she was going to be profoundly deaf in both ears.

Man she is so smart and thanks to science she now has an implant that allows her to hear.

Honestly you just never know how kid is going to turn out, and I just dont think it is fair to deny a child the possibility of have a happy life. There may or may not be some real gray areas if we look at every single situation, but I dont think this is what we ware talking about and on a whole I think abortion is stealing away a childs right to live.

 

[Fender357]

Didn't you hear?
It already is legal.

 

[Yakuza]

how is it any creepier than thinking of yourself dying? if anything, it'd be a lot easier to take than dying now, it's like being dead but you were never alive. In some cases that might be better than actually living.

Sorry I just dont understand what your trying to say.
Were are not talking about death as it happens naturaly but death inflicted by another.

I am dying every single day that passes, so does every one else. I just dont think its okay for me to step in the process of that on an innocent child and end its life prematurely.

 

[Yakuza]

Didn't you hear?
It already is legal.

Again so was slavery....that doesn't mean i shouldn't try to get it changed, I mean imagine if no one tried to end slavery because..well...its legal.

 

[Jakeic]

what i am saying is, if you were an aborted fetus (which is not a child), you would have no personality, no memories, and no recolection of anything that happened. however, if you were shot dead today, you would have all of your hopes, wishes, wants and desires that were unfulfilled still lurking over you. your own mortality right now is scarier than thinking of being a clump of cells in your mother that were stopped from being brought to fruition.

no one is asking you to step into the process and abort a fetus, i wouldn't really want to do something like that either, but it really isn't my choice, and just because you are trying to play some moral guilt trip on someone else, doesn't make it your choice either.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

are there any people here who do not consider themselves "spiritual" or "religious" that think abortion should be illegal (and rigidly prohibited by law) in every situation (including rape, threat to the mother's life, etc.)? just curious.

 

[Yakuza]

What difference does it make. I do however look at the point of "mothers life is in danger" more openly than the rest.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

the difference is made in that i'm asking the question. none more is needed. it's simple curiosity, nothing more.

 

[CptStern]

I wounder how many people would have aborted my duaghter had they known she was going to be profoundly deaf in both ears.

Man she is so smart and thanks to science she now has an implant that allows her to hear.

Honestly you just never know how kid is going to turn out, and I just dont think it is fair to deny a child the possibility of have a happy life. There may or may not be some real gray areas if we look at every single situation, but I dont think this is what we ware talking about and on a whole I think abortion is stealing away a childs right to live.

yes but she can live a relatively normal life being deaf. Deafness is somewhat curable: severe autism is not. I've met kids who cant speak, move, eat, breathe on their own ...life is extremely hard for them, given a choice I'm not sure they would choose to live ...I had an old student who wouldnt live past the age of 20 (sadly he's probably dead now) and he knew that he was going to die, in his worst moments he often wished he wasnt born

 

[Yakuza]

what i am saying is, if you were an aborted fetus (which is not a child),

n. pl. chil·dren (chldrn)

1. A person between birth and puberty.
2.
1. An unborn infant; a fetus.
2. An infant; a baby.
3. One who is childish or immature.
4. A son or daughter; an offspring.
5. A member of a tribe; descendant: children of Abraham.
6.
1. An individual regarded as strongly affected by another or by a specified time, place, or circumstance: a child of nature; a child of the Sixties.
2. A product or result of something specified: “Times Square is a child of the 20th century” (Richard F. Shepard).