An Interesting Bit of Philosophy

[KillCodyDead]

"A man whose mind feels that it is captive would prefer to blind himself to the fact. But if he hates falsehood, he will not do so; and in that case he will have to suffer a lot. He will beat his head against the wall until he faints. He will come to again and look with terror at the wall, until one day he begins afresh to beat his head against it; and once again he will faint. And so on endlessly and without hope.

One day he will wake up on the other side of the wall."

-- Simone Weil





My question is this: is the pain of the beating always worth the reward (namely, understanding and awareness) on the other side of the wall? If not, where do we, as humans, draw the line? How much is too much to pay when it comes to acceptance?

 

[Vegeta897]

That is a big question. When should the greater good be strived for.

I guess whatever comnes natural. Whatever we feel is the right choice. Collectively, humans will advance regardless.

 

[spookymooky]

There is no advance, no progress.

Change, perhaps, but nothing is better, nothing is worse. Don't mistake maintenance for progress.

 

[Taboo]

It all depends on what you want out of life. Some people strive sole for happiness, social acceptance and wealth. These goals would be achieved most effectively by ignoring the wall that is irrelevant to their goals anyway, but there is always the select few that seek truth over everything else. This search or even realization of truth, as seen in creative novelties and radical movements, tends to put alot more obstacles in the way of people and their most intimate aformentioned goals.

 

[KillCodyDead]

It all depends on what you want out of life. Some people strive sole for happiness, social acceptance and wealth. These goals would be achieved most effectively by ignoring the wall that is irrelevant to their goals anyway, but there is always the select few that seek truth over everything else. This search or even realization of truth, as seen in creative novelties and radical movements, tends to put alot more obstacles in the way of people and their most intimate aformentioned goals.

Very true. However, this raises the question of motives.

 

[ailevation]

"It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. The other party to the comparison knows both sides." - John Stuart Mill

 

[KillCodyDead]

"It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. The other party to the comparison knows both sides." - John Stuart Mill

Irrelevant? Interesting, still.

 

[Adabiviak]

Are these valid assumptions in the first place?

"A man whose mind feels that it is captive would prefer to blind himself to the fact.

Would he? Maybe he'd prefer to escape captivity?

But if he hates falsehood, he will not do so; and in that case he will have to suffer a lot.

...or maybe he'd try to escape or do something else about it?

He will beat his head against the wall until he faints. He will come to again and look with terror at the wall, until one day he begins afresh to beat his head against it; and once again he will faint. And so on endlessly and without hope.

I realize this is a metaphor, but I find myself questioning this person's decision making skills.

One day he will wake up on the other side of the wall.

Or he'll suffer for the rest of his life.

My question is this: is the pain of the beating always worth the reward (namely, understanding and awareness) on the other side of the wall? If not, where do we, as humans, draw the line? How much is too much to pay when it comes to acceptance?

I'm not sure I understand this metaphor in it's entirety.

 

[Marinmald]

ones does not need to bang their head against a wall to figure out a solution to get past an obstacle. a smart man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

 

[victor]

"waking up on the other side of the wall" is just a metaphor for death. truth is anathema to the human condition.

 

[Marinmald]

oooooo, I get it now, thats what I get for trying to think when I am tired and have a headache.

 

[Adabiviak]

Truth is anathema to the human condition?

 

[victor]

why do you think we have religion?

 

[Adabiviak]

I think religious people have bats in their belfrey, but I think I understand now that your statement 'truth is anathema to the human condition' is not an absolute, but a pretty good generalization. I'm still not sure if I completely understand the original post though.

 

[Dr. Breen]

Whatever we feel is the right choice.

Perhaps you can clarify that? What about impulses for acquisition of instant gratification? We shouldn't always give in to those.

 

[Pressure]

I think religious people have bats in their belfrey, but I think I understand now that your statement 'truth is anathema to the human condition' is not an absolute, but a pretty good generalization. I'm still not sure if I completely understand the original post though.

Listen here mister sister, there's a reason why we have religion. Are you so blind as to not see God all around you? If you just look around you can see all of His works. I bet you also believe in stuff such as evolution. Well let me ask you this, how can an eye just exist? It's way too complex for your crack pot evolution to have produced. It's obvious there's a designer, an intelligent designer. How dare you say we have "bats in [our] belfrey".

 

[Jintor]

Listen here mister sister, there's a reason why we have religion. Are you so blind as to not see God all around you? If you just look around you can see all of His works. I bet you also believe in stuff such as evolution. Well let me ask you this, how can an eye just exist? It's way too complex for your crack pot evolution to have produced. It's obvious there's a designer, an intelligent designer. How dare you say we have "bats in [our] belfrey".

If you're joking, add quotes to that effect, because that was so stupid I have no idea if the humour was intentional or not.

 

[Dr. Breen]

To quote South Park; "Isn't Creation the Why and Evolution the How?" or something like that... (Excuse me if that sounded grammatically retarded) But honestly, I'm not religious however I do believe there is a supernatural force that created everything. I mean, it's not like matter is spawned out of nothing for no reason. Now, I'm not saying God is some bearded guy in a robe sitting in a chrome chair uttering archaic passages but there is something "out there."

 

[Pressure]

If you're joking, add quotes to that effect, because that was so stupid I have no idea if the humour was intentional or not.

:|

 

[Jintor]

D:

 

[Pressure]

Well, I'd like to see you prove me wrong.

 

[Geogaddi]

The Phallus of False Hope.

:*(

Also, you're the one making the claims, YOU prove it.

As for the eye, [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=furcepFlfZ4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Pressure]

I don't have time to watch a video. I can prove my side. Everything you'd need to know is in a book called the Bible.

 

[Solaris]

As with all philosophical debates in the history of man kind, I expect this rather simple discussion to devolve in arguments over the most insanely complex idea's that require 15minutes of solitary thinking to understand and then to go into flames and the whole thread will degenerate into complete chaos.

 

[Adabiviak]

Woah - thread derailment ahead. I'm still looking for a clarification of 'truth is anathema to the human condition' and then I'll take another shot at understanding the original post. There are a legion of other topics already poisoned with awfully defended religious debates - why don't you take your bizarre arguments there instead of killing this one?

 

[victor]

what we perceive to be reality is a picture that is contaminated by ignorance, emotion, instinct. for a human being to experience truth, all these obstacles would have to be removed, which is impossible.

ultimately the truth is irrelevant, belief is all that counts.

having said this - pressure, you're an idiot.

 

[Marinmald]

I don't have time to watch a video. I can prove my side. Everything you'd need to know is in a book called the Bible.

you know how stupid that sounds, "it's in a book! it must be true! even if the book is over 2000 years old and has been translated and retranslated several times from the original. and has serveral passages that contradict itself. it is in a book so it must be true!" well if that is the case, I will write a book claiming me to be the supreme being that created the multi-verse, sell it, and reap the benifits. and because it is in a book, it must be true. see what I am getting at? your a moron, stfu, gtfo.

 

[Solaris]

Lol I think pressure is playing devils advocate here people.

 

[Marinmald]

Lol I think pressure is playing devils advocate here people.

"god" already has enough fanatics, he doesn't need an advocate.

 

[CptStern]

Well, I'd like to see you prove me wrong.

of what? that an eye suddenly materialized? come on ..


I knew this thread was headed towards a discussion of religion ..in fact call me paranoid but I think it might have been the OP's intention ..anyways please for the ****ing love of god do not rtry to rationalise religious principles especially when it comes to creationism, you'll only look like a fool for trying to compare observable, measureable fact with fantasy/faith ..no offense to the religious but I kinda wish you people trolling as means of religious recruitment/defending of the faith would just curl up somewhere and die ..ffs we dont want to be converted we dont want to have YOUR ideology crammed down our unwilling throats ..it's getting to the point where you're so invasive that the only way of dealing with your in your face religion is by being an asshole ..next jehovah's witness that comes to my front door gets curb stomped

 

[Smoke]

I don't have time to watch a video. I can prove my side. Everything you'd need to know is in a book called the Bible.

That`s not proof.

 

[Geogaddi]

It's really hard to tell if he's trolling or not.

 

[Pressure]

Come now, you don't have to call me names for what I believe. It's that you "logical" thinkers are just as "illogical" as you claim us Christians to be. It takes just as much faith to believe in what you believe in as it does for us to believe in what we believe in. The only difference is, we are right and there is a God.

If you want to deny Jesus in your heart and pay the price that is your decision. However, to call me stupid for being smart enough to choose the path to salvation doesn't seem very reasonable. I can only pray that one day you see the light, and I will be praying for everyone on this forum every night in hopes that it will happen. You just have to lift the veil of ignorance.

 

[Marinmald]

Come now, you don't have to call me names for what I believe. It's that you "logical" thinkers are just as "illogical" as you claim us Christians to be. It takes just as much faith to believe in what you believe in as it does for us to believe in what we believe in. The only difference is, we are right and there is a God.

If you want to deny Jesus in your heart and pay the price that is your decision. However, to call me stupid for being smart enough to choose the path to salvation doesn't seem very reasonable. I can only pray that one day you see the light, and I will be praying for everyone on this forum every night in hopes that it will happen. You just have to lift the veil of ignorance.

he's trolling.

 

[Pressure]

Okay, do you want me to make actual arguments? They said they didn't want to debate, so I didn't bring any up.

 

[Geogaddi]

And he's pretty good at it too. Being a part time troll myself, I can tell you that he's being just enough of a dumbf*ck to get people to engage him, but not so much as to make it obvious he's faking it.

Good game, Good game.

 

[Pressure]

Okay, well if you want to argue about it we can use PMs or talk over AIM. How about that for being serious? I'll stay off the forums.

 

[Krynn72]

Even if he isnt it would be a pointless debate, since he already said hes not going to listen to any proof contradictory to his faith.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think Pressure is rather too good at this 'parodying the religious' thing.

Either that, or the religious are rather too good at parodying themselves!

 

[jondy]

Aww, I remember pressure's EXTREME posts way back... a classic return to form