Arab lady tells it like it is on Al-Jazeera

[K e r b e r o s]

yes because the west is sooooo enlightened

Remember, your apart of that "west". Heh, your right above us! *wave*

yes but neither side is innocent now are they?

Well, I guess thats what you get with Freedom of Speech. People abuse the right ... [In response to your quotes]

..a few dozen people killed in riots hardly compares to thousands killed by ordinance delivered by million dollar fighter planes

So your excusing one killing over another killing? :thumbs:

 

[Gray Fox]

you cannot generalize to that extent ..Iraq for example had the most secular government in the middle east, Iran used to have a democratically elected secular government (till the US overthrew it)

...either way you slice it there are that are in positions of power who use radical ideology on both sides of the ocean. It's all relative ..a few dozen people killed in riots hardly compares to thousands killed by ordinance delivered by million dollar fighter planes ...the victems could care less which ideology they died for because the result is the same

Well the fact that democraticly chosen governments made and support such barabaric laws like killing of gay people, suppresion of woman rights just supports my point that such practices are supprted by their civilization, and yes here in the west we have crazy people in power but most if not alll the ideas you quoted have been rejected by the majority and are not the rule of law. So you can't quote anti-feminists and argue that we are as bad as in the middle east, even if those quotes come from powefull people, cause those ideas were and still are simply rejected. So your quotes prove nothing, exept that there are idiots no matter where you go.

So your excusing one killing over another killing? Pretty shameful, but just like you CptStern.

I don't think he is excusing it, he is merly stating that we the civilized west killed more people then they have and yet we call ourself civilized. Although i do not agree with Stern in that that is prove of our lack of civilazation.

 

[CptStern]

Remember, your apart of that "west". Heh, your right above us! *wave*

what does that have to do with anything? I dont represent the west

Well, I guess thats what you get with Freedom of Speech. People abuse the right ... [In response to your quotes]

so it's ok for the west to do it just not anyone else

So your excusing one killing over another killing? Pretty shameful, but just like you CptStern. :thumbs:

shut up already kerberos. The very fact that you cant see you're being a hypocrite points to the fact that you couldnt care less about the topic. You're more interested in attacking the messenger. I know you dont particularily like me for constantly exposing your idiocy but it's getting to the point where you cherry pick points and twist them to mean something completely different than what I intended ..no rational person would jump to that idiotic conclusion ..debate the facts, dont resort to stupid implications and putting words in my mouth.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

what does that have to do with anything? I dont represent the west

Oh, a lot. In by "west", when these theocratic facists mention anything, they're talking about everything "west" of them. Europe, America, Canada. We're all apart of their generalization.

Oh, and as for you representing the west, I agree. But I want you to also understand that America does'nt represent all of the west either. Canada and America are just but two quarters of it in my opinion.

so it's ok for the west to do it just not anyone else

I would'nt get so combative over my second arguement. If anything, it was'nt. Some of those quotes made me laugh, not because I don't believe they're true, but just because how stupid those people sound.

shut up already kerberos.

Yea, I knew that'd get ya! :thumbs: But let's get back on topic.

Has this Arab lady stated anything else?

 

[CptStern]

Oh, a lot. In by "west", when these theocratic facists mention anything, they're talking about everything "west" of them. Europe, America, Canada. We're all apart of their generalization.

Oh, and as for you representing the west, I agree. But I want you to also understand that America does'nt represent all of the west either. Canada and America are just but two quarters of it in my opinion.



I would'nt get so combative over my second arguement. If anything, it was'nt. Some of those quotes made me laugh, not because I don't believe they're true, but just because how stupid those people sound.



Yea, I knew that'd get ya! :thumbs: But let's get back on topic.

Has this Arab lady stated anything else?

so you admit to trolling? good next time that happens I'll be sure to point it out to a mod

 

[K e r b e r o s]

so you admit to trolling? good next time that happens I'll be sure to point it out to a mod

I think you've answered that question for me. You left me little chance to assume the responsibility for the actions you're accusing me of. So, now ... that responsibility is yours. :thumbs:

Besides, Herr Stern, my last arguement on this topic will end with this question: Whose trolling now? Lowly little me 2,005+ me? Or big tank ranter 15,000 posts you?

If you want to take this to PM's, please do. I'm through with your immaturity in this thread, but invite it the chance to Spam my PM's box.

Now, lets get back on topic, shall we?:

Arab lady tells it like it is on Al-Jazeera

She's not the only one, ever here of the Islam Apostates?

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

By far, not the last one by any means! This only adds to the growing Islamic apprehension of itself, and the countries that use it to justify rule and justice.

I think its odd there appears to be much more apprehensive attitudes coming out of Muslims about Islam. I thought surely some of us were wrong in our assumptions about it.

 

[CptStern]

way to play the victem kerberos instead of what you really are: the instigator :upstare:

you're trying to continue the topic of the thread? my ass ..I handed you your dignity so as to not to continue to look the fool you've made a complete about face and all of the sudden you're commited to this topic. You're completely transparent, you're a waste of time, one that I'm not willing to indulge in anymore. God and your use of language is just deplorable, I'm convinced you dont even understand what you're saying half the time ..it's like talking a child who's just recently discovered the dictionary

 

[Ome_Vince]

There's a big difference between random quotes by a few US morons, and an entire society of intollerance comparable with "us" in the middle ages.
It has nothing to do with religion, but how some societies have implemented it.
I oppose the claims the entire middle east is like that, some some countries are...

 

[K e r b e r o s]

This I agree with Ome ...

It has nothing to do with religion, but how some societies have implemented it.

I'm just curious how those secular countries became so ... intolerable?

 

[CptStern]

they're quotes from influential people in the highest positions of power ..you cant dismiss it as a "few morons"

 

[K e r b e r o s]

“George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the United States, he was appointed by God.” - Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin


"For the first time ever, everything is in place for the Battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ." - Ronald Reagan


"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand."

- James Watt Secretary of the Interior Responsible for National Policy regarding the Environment under Reagan


"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war." - Ann Coulter


"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharaoh's charioteers."
--Jerry Falwell


"The New York Times and Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves. Just about every person down there is a homosexual or lesbian."
--Senator Jesse Helms


"The real liberators of American women were not the feminist noise-makers, they were the automobile, the supermarket, the shopping center, the dishwasher, the washer-dryer, the freezer."
--Pat Buchanan


"Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it. ... Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory."
--Rev. Jimmy Swaggart


"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this (9/11) happen.' " - Jerry Falwell


"There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy moneychangers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?"

-Pat Robertson


Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

-Pat Robertson



"Screw the Buddhists and kill the Muslims" - Henry Jordan, South Carolina board of education

Senator Jesse Helms ... is he a colonel in the Christian army? No.
I don't consider him influential. If the conservative party would follow him, believing he's right, then they're fools for doing so.

As for Ronald Reagans comments on the second coming, he's not in power now is he? Nope. Check that one off. Plus, it was a stupid opinion. He has no influence over the environment now anyways. I'm not concerned.

Anne Coulter? She's not influential. She's a bitch. And the only thing bitches have power in is relationships. Oh, and pre'tell, what relationships is she involved in? None. Not even involved with those who actually have power.

Jerry Falwell? Influential? **** that guy.

Oh, and Pat Robertson is a creep anyway. I practically want to vomit when I watch his broadcasts. But again, Televanglicals only have power over one thing. The zombies that watch and believe their shows. Thats all.

 

[Ome_Vince]

CptStern, i understand, but thats what they are... just a few morons.
There are plenty of morons in power that come and go. Lots of quotes are pulled out of context or said as a stupid mistake.

Bush also said this "was a crusade against terrorism".
He was not refering to an actual crusade in which we all take an armed pilgrimage to the holy lands..
He needed a strong word for his "anti-terrorism war"
He makes mistakes because he's a moron.

Hence entire societies somewhere else forbid other religions and kill people for their religion, adultry or sexuality.
Its not what certain individuals say, its what entire societies do and why they do it.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

^ Yep. Said what I could'nt.

 

[CptStern]

it's "pray tell"

george bush, ronald reagan were the presidents of the US, James Watt was the Secretary of the Interior, Pat robertson is the leader of over 1 million people, Falwell is the leader of the Moral Majority a political lobbyist think tank with religious undertones, Coulter is the right wing poster girl who has influence in right wing circles despite consistently preaching hate rhetoric ...just because you cant understand their influence doesnt mean it doesnt exist

these "morons" dont just come and go ..they've been around for decades and continue to influence the government ...you cant honestly believe that the draconian laws (banning of abortion, intelligent design in schools etc) would have passed if not for the current adminstration? America is inching towards a non-secular government, not away from it

 

[K e r b e r o s]

it's "pray tell"

k, will fix next time! :thumbs:

ronald reagan "were" the presidents of the US

Yea, were, Presidents. Though now are not.

Pat robertson is the leader of over 1 million people

Really? Does he have his own country, or planet for that matter? 1 million out of 240 million? Your getting Psyched out about that?

But I agree, there statements are pure ... well ... I don't know what to call them beyond hilarious and ignorant.

Falwell is the leader of the Moral Majority a political lobbyist think tank with religious undertones

I knew quite well who Falwell was, thank you. I strongly disagree with any religious undertoning also; not just his, mind you.

Coulter is the right wing poster girl who has influence in right wing circles despite consistently preaching hate rhetoric

Coulter is only what you make her. For me, she's an unpopular ... person thing. What could we call her?

In any case, I agree those statements are utterly retarded. But again, I'm not worried about weak Lobbyists, Christian 1 million person dictator, and the etc and add nausem.

 

[CptStern]

yet you dont see a co-relation between them and the banning of abortion, intelligent design in schools etc ...no they must have just dropped out of the thin air

 

[Ome_Vince]

I doubt Fiddling with abortian laws and riots vs gay marriage is sufficient to say a country is heading for a non-secular state...

I'd rather say they are having "after-shocks" or "twitches" of a former religious not-really-secular state/society.
You forget older generations dont like change that much. Lots of stuff changed for the better:
You could get put in jail showing your butt on TV (by the FBI) 30 years ago. This changed..
If you look at American history it has always been religious and traditional. That is changing. I look at MTV and other youth programs/channels and i hardly see religious Christianity there buddy.

I think the older religious societies are on the verge of "letting go" like what happened in Europe, and the newer non-religious generations are "taking over".
But thats a whole other debate.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

yet you dont see a co-relation between them and the banning of abortion, intelligent design in schools etc ...no they must have just dropped out of the thin air

For someone whose involved in a small town community, names like Coulter and Bush mean nothing compared to those empowered with the Govenors position here in North Carolina.

Whats happening in our Ruraltan communities out there is based upon the consesus of its population. I don't nessecarly agree with majority rule, but its something thats occuring in these area's and the majority thats ruling happens to be Christian. I agree something should be emplace to upset that balance, but nothing can at this moment.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

is the lady Ayaan Hirsi Ali?

I can't seem to access that site, but if it's her I know what she's talking about.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I'm not too sure who she is. I have'nt seen the video in a while now.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is from Holland.
She fights for woman's rights in the Islam and is currently under police protection as one of her "films" with VIP Theo van Gogh got a nasty responce from the muslim community and extremists murdered Theo.
Rumor is she is elected for the nobel prize of "peace".
Although she has some valid points i hardly call her a bringer of peace. :S

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Although she has some valid points i hardly call her a bringer of peace. :S

With what this woman faces, like Theo Van Gogh, I'd like to call her a hero! The meant to behead Theo Van Gogh. Imagine if they tried to behead you, slowly?

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

so is it her or not?

anyways I agree with a lot of what she has to say, although some of the stuff she has said is a bit too pessimistic and doomsday-ish IMO.

 

[CptStern]

no that's not her, this is

http://static.flickr.com/7/8314445_a41830f1b1_m.jpg

 

[Ome_Vince]

She's so sexy

 

[Pajari]

yes because the west is sooooo enlightened

You just dismissed centuries of progress in human rights, government, economics and technology by a few meaningless words. Way to completely miss the point.

My point was not that the west is flawless, but that its far advanced when compared to the Muslim countries in nearly every way. Are you seriously disputing that westerners enjoy greater prosperity, far more political and social rights when compared to the Middle East, or are you just bullshitting me?

 

[CptStern]

You just dismissed centuries of progress in human rights, government, economics and technology by a few meaningless words. Way to completely miss the point.

My point was not that the west is flawless, but that its far advanced when compared to the Muslim countries in nearly every way. Are you seriously disputing that westerners enjoy greater prosperity, far more political and social rights when compared to the Middle East, or are you just bullshitting me?

apples to oranges ..you cant compare the two. However dont make it look like we are the enlightened ones and they are the ones still in a savage state ..you're overgeneralising and trivialising their culture and way of life. Would you call tibetan monks or the amish uncultured or uncivilised because they dont share our way of life?

 

[kaf11]

Would you call tibetan monks or the amish uncultured or uncivilised because they dont share our way of life?

Sternd!



But seriously, I agree.

 

[NotATool]

You just dismissed centuries of progress in human rights, government, economics and technology by a few meaningless words. Way to completely miss the point.

My point was not that the west is flawless, but that its far advanced when compared to the Muslim countries in nearly every way. Are you seriously disputing that westerners enjoy greater prosperity, far more political and social rights when compared to the Middle East, or are you just bullshitting me?

You have what is called a eurocentric worldview.

"Advancement" is completely subjective. You might think you're more advanced because you can go to a store and by a pencil thick piece of electronics than can play 4,000 songs, but a Zen Bhuddist might think he is more advanced because he can survive with a rag in perfect serenity.

Rumor is she is elected for the nobel prize of "peace".

Imagine the cartoon outrage multiplied by 36, 000.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Paj wasn't trying to say anything negative about them. You're all twisting his words around :|.

 

[Pajari]

apples to oranges ..you cant compare the two. However dont make it look like we are the enlightened ones and they are the ones still in a savage state ..you're overgeneralising and trivialising their culture and way of life. Would you call tibetan monks or the amish uncultured or uncivilised because they dont share our way of life?

I don't buy that at all. I can compare the two, now as a thousand years ago. In the middle ages, Europe was barbaric and plagued by deep divisions and stifling theocratic authority, whereas the Muslims were the ones making advances in science, math (our number system, for instance), and tolerating other religions. Now the situation is just the opposite. For those actually living in the Middle East and dealing with the oppression of women, the complete dominance of the religious authority, the poverty, and the intellectual stagnation, there is a definite comparison to be made with the west, and that comparison is not favorable to the Muslim world.

They are both different, true, but I'd definitely say that we are more advanced than they are- and I can do it without a hint of racism or bias, too, because it could easily be the other way around. If not for historical circumstance and luck, us westerners could be the ones casting envious eyes on the Middle East.

I would definitely call the Amish and the Tibetan monks less advanced in certain areas, obviously technology, but when it comes to political rights and society, they are definitely more advanced than we are. The same thing can certainly not be said for the Middle East, where the same power structure has persisted for literally the past thousand years. Comparing the Buddhists to the Muslims is apples to oranges, stern.

You have what is called a eurocentric worldview.

Am I to assume that's a polite way of calling me racist? If so, bullshit. If you're assuming that I have no appreciation of other cultures, then that's also false.

"Advancement" is completely subjective. You might think you're more advanced because you can go to a store and by a pencil thick piece of electronics than can play 4,000 songs, but a Zen Bhuddist might think he is more advanced because he can survive with a rag in perfect serenity.

Advancement is not subjective. When we have a system that allows for a far more effecient distribution of resources and a goverment that allows everyone a say and peacably resolves ethnic and political differences, then we are better equipped and more advanced than a culture that does not. When we have technology and scientists that are at the leading edge in nearly every field of study, we are ahead of a culture that sends its children to our schools to learn. As far as our cutthroat and sometimes bigoted society goes, we lag behind the Buddhists, but that's the only concievable basis you have for saying we're not advanced. I'm not dealing with memory sticks or car tires, I'm dealing with society, government, and the economy. The Middle East is in the middle ages still, and we've moved far beyond them.

That's not to say they're doomed, because if South Korea is any indication, a primitive culture can easily catch up to the rest of the industrialized world in a single generation, given the right conditions. The Arabs certainly aren't incapable of succeeding- to say so would be profoundly ignorant- but they are in a worse position to do so.

 

[CptStern]

I don't buy that at all. I can compare the two, now as a thousand years ago. In the middle ages, Europe was barbaric and plagued by deep divisions and stifling theocratic authority, whereas the Muslims were the ones making advances in science, math (our number system, for instance), and tolerating other religions. Now the situation is just the opposite. For those actually living in the Middle East and dealing with the oppression of women, the complete dominance of the religious authority, the poverty, and the intellectual stagnation, there is a definite comparison to be made with the west, and that comparison is not favorable to the Muslim world.

They are both different, true, but I'd definitely say that we are more advanced than they are- and I can do it without a hint of racism or bias, too, because it could easily be the other way around. If not for historical circumstance and luck, us westerners could be the ones casting envious eyes on the Middle East.

I would definitely call the Amish and the Tibetan monks less advanced in certain areas, obviously technology, but when it comes to political rights and society, they are definitely more advanced than we are. The same thing can certainly not be said for the Middle East, where the same power structure has persisted for literally the past thousand years. Comparing the Buddhists to the Muslims is apples to oranges, stern.

relative to what though? is being civilized waging war with horrific weapons that kill from afar? does civilized mean that we judge people by the colour of their skin or their political views or what have you ...if you've read Montaigne's "Of Cannibals" you can see what I'm getting at

 

[Pajari]

relative to what though? is being civilized waging war with horrific weapons that kill from afar? does civilized mean that we judge people by the colour of their skin or their political views or what have you ...if you've read Montaigne's "Of Cannibals" you can see what I'm getting at

Relative to the Middle East, of course! Just because we have airplanes that drop bombs and ships that fire missiles doesn't mean we're not civilized- it just means we've invented a better way to kill people. Again, you're missing my point. I'm not talking about the specifics, because if you wanted to get technical, the Middle East uses the same weapons we do (albeit less powerful), I'm talking about the important things- our economy, society, and government. In the areas that matter we're more civilized.

And I especially enjoy the irony of you pointing out that some westerners are racist and bigoted. Have you listened to the president if Iran recently? How about Hamas, the most popular political party in Palestine? They want to wipe Israel off the map for what amounts to being Jewish. Oh, and have you seen those beautiful Buddhist statues in Afghanistan recently? I think its pretty rich to call us bigots and give the Middle East the benefit of the doubt.

I haven't read that essay, but I printed it out and I'm reading it before I head to bed tonight.

 

[Lemonking]

pajari is my new hero.he can explain things which when I would try 2 explain would sound stupid/racist.thats I dont post here anymore

 

[Ome_Vince]

I wouldnt generalize the entire middle east but there certainly are a few countries which have major uncivilized societies, and there's nothing wrong with saying that..
This is not based on technology, military or whatever, but how their society works towards its own people.
Countries in which other religions are forbidden, women have no rights, people get executed for adultry and/or being homosexual are uncivilized->period...
Culture or not, an intollerant society with barbaric ways of execution for nothing is uncivilized...
Again, it has nothing to do with the religion, but how certain countries have implemented it into society.
If you want examples let me know and ill get you a nice list..

I too would like to sit back and pretend im Jack Cousteau and see the world as equal only differed by culture but its not.
I think the society measures how civilized a country is...
And no we are not "all perfect", i generally admire other cultures and countries but also feel like im blessed coming from a country where i can express myself without fearing death or religious persecution.

 

[SAJ]

You just dismissed centuries of progress in human rights, government, economics and technology by a few meaningless words. Way to completely miss the point.

My point was not that the west is flawless, but that its far advanced when compared to the Muslim countries in nearly every way. Are you seriously disputing that westerners enjoy greater prosperity, far more political and social rights when compared to the Middle East, or are you just bullshitting me?

Sounds like you are (not uniquely) mistaking an east/west divide, for a thirdworld/first world divide.
Look at south america, look at africa and consider se asia. The divisions that you identify as being issues of "culture" are largely to do with poverty and economic development.

 

[CptStern]

Relative to the Middle East, of course! Just because we have airplanes that drop bombs and ships that fire missiles doesn't mean we're not civilized- it just means we've invented a better way to kill people.

is it less barbaric to wage war from afar killing hundreds if not thousands of people or is the measure of barbarity only reserved for those who use their more personal weapons?

Again, you're missing my point. I'm not talking about the specifics, because if you wanted to get technical, the Middle East uses the same weapons we do (albeit less powerful), I'm talking about the important things- our economy, society, and government. In the areas that matter we're more civilized.

we wage wars of conquest, we limit freedoms to specific members of society based on things like race, gender, sexual preference etc ..in simplistic terms (although I abhor quoting the bible) "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

And I especially enjoy the irony of you pointing out that some westerners are racist and bigoted. Have you listened to the president if Iran recently? How about Hamas, the most popular political party in Palestine? They want to wipe Israel off the map for what amounts to being Jewish. Oh, and have you seen those beautiful Buddhist statues in Afghanistan recently? I think its pretty rich to call us bigots and give the Middle East the benefit of the doubt.

so that makes it alright then? "we can be bigoted because others are more bigoted".

 

[Ome_Vince]

Since there are no sin-less or holy people, i'd say in some sense civilized nations can point fingers to lesser civilized nations.
The critisism is good, and stimulating.
A funny example a little offtopic: Before artists become great they have usually received alot of critisism. You see the artist shouting: "can you do better? look at yourself can you paint?".
Where would they be if nobody said anything?
Where would the west be if it didnt make all those countless mistakes and inner conflicts to create a better living condition and a more civilized world?
It all starts with critisism, and if everybody keeps quiet then nothing happens or nothing will ever happen...

Also, You seem to point alot of fingers at US society and government, and you blame them for alot of things, are others allowed to point at various Middle-Eastern countries and say "thats primitive and wrong"?

Are we not allowed to say Iran is barbaric in its ways because we are not perfect ourselves?
I agree only partially with you Stern in the case that the "middle east" should not be generalized, but for a few countries (also outside the middle-east) i believe we are allowed to point fingers, even if we're not perfect ourselves.
We'll let others point fingers at us and critisize, which is what happens on a daily basis..

 

[K e r b e r o s]

apples to oranges ..you cant compare the two.

Umm yes we can, because its not apples to oranges. Its apples to apples in this case, because even though we both share different idealogies and political systems, we are all human and thats enough to consider for this debate.

Would you call tibetan monks or the amish uncultured or uncivilised because they dont share our way of life?

Were not at war with Tibetan Monks or the Amish culture. Needless to say, an Amish would'nt behead me because I'm Gay and more Pagan then I'am Christian. As for a Tibetan Monk, I'm sure he could careless how to suicide bomb himself into a crowd of people.

Needless to say, thats not they're taste.

is it less barbaric to wage war from afar killing hundreds if not thousands of people or is the measure of barbarity only reserved for those who use their more personal weapons?

Barbarity depends upon the failure of morals. The Insurgents, despite their God, have none. Is it moral to behead someone slowly?

I'd call it more moral to kill someone instantly, although the murder commited is hardly moral in itself.

we wage wars of conquest, we limit freedoms to specific members of society based on things like race, gender, sexual preference etc ..in simplistic terms (although I abhor quoting the bible) "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

First off, we don't wage wars of conquest. This recent flop of an Invasion doesn't suddenly justify America as the Huns or Visigoths.

As for limiting Freedoms, no we don't. In France, they won't let Islamic Women wear headscarfs while in America and Canada, we allow them to. Thats not a restraint on human rights, thats an allowance.

 

[Pajari]

Sounds like you are (not uniquely) mistaking an east/west divide, for a thirdworld/first world divide.
Look at south america, look at africa and consider se asia. The divisions that you identify as being issues of "culture" are largely to do with poverty and economic development.

The economic difference is extremely important and does account for a lot of what I said, but the Middle East is unique in that the same power structure has remained since the middle ages- in South America, Africa, and SE Asia, things have changed significantly, and power has passed from emperors to imperialists to the native peoples. The role of religion and government has been changed radically and in most cases religion is now subordinate to the government instead of above it.

Also, the culture is a hindrance, but the Arabs are not tied to it. Europe had a similar culture during the middle ages, and its obviously changed quite a bit. I'm not insinuating that Arabic culture is and always will be inherently inferior to western culture.

is it less barbaric to wage war from afar killing hundreds if not thousands of people or is the measure of barbarity only reserved for those who use their more personal weapons?

What would Hamas or the president of Iran do with our weapons? Just because they lack the means to inflict serious harm on the world doesn't mean they are any less barbaric.

And yes, we do kill people from far away. Is that worse than using a personal weapon like a pack of c4 strapped to the chest? I'm not really sure what you're getting at here- we're barbaric and morally reprehensible because we kill people? That's quite a yardstick to measure civilization by.

we wage wars of conquest, we limit freedoms to specific members of society based on things like race, gender, sexual preference etc ..in simplistic terms (although I abhor quoting the bible) "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Our last war of conquest was the Spanish-American war. In every other conflict, we've either come to the defense of allies or left the country we supposedly 'conquered'. I don't think you can call Iraq or Afghanistan 'conquests' by any stretch of the imagination, because we derive absoloutely no material benefit from being there, besides the (admittedly murky) concept of Middle Eastern stability and democracy. You probably should look up the word 'conquest', because I've never heard it to refer to small wars before.

Also, the US is among the freest countries in the entire world (try being gay in Iran, for instance). Or are you referring to the West in general? If so, that's even more of an absurdity, considering the unprecedented personal and economic freedoms that you and I can take for granted.

And, wether or not this is convenient for you, everything is relative. We are practically the Elysian Fields compared to the Middle East, especially when it comes to personal freedoms.

so that makes it alright then? "we can be bigoted because others are more bigoted".

No, that doesn't make it "alright". You can't expect one hundred percent perfection out of an entire society. When we've got the leader of an entire nation calling for what amounts to genocide, I think the bigotry is pretty obvious and that is definitely not "alright".