Battlefield 3

[Raziaar]

I'm not saying its complex in such a way they are unable to handle it. People are smart and they can figure stuff out and have done for years. Its more complex in terms of the amount of things that are now pored into games and how much work they would need to produce.

Back in the day when mods where big they had to deal with some basic art production, some new code and a few levels. Now there is all the 3d sound to deal with, physics, destriction and more which adds MASSIVES of code and then there is the TONS and TONS of art work. Like I said before games like this take years to produce with hundreds of people working on them. The man hours put into the production of a game like this is insane to say the least.

What I'm really getting at is modding has become harder just because there is so much more involved, there is just too much work for a team of 10-20 people working a few hours in an evening to produce a great quality mod in a decent time frame.

The SDK of some description should be released, and people will try to mod it and I'm sure some mods will come out but its debatable as to weather they will meet the quality of past mods. The best results would come from mapping, if they released a fully comprehensive mapper which included a **** ton of ready made assets.

-------------

I managed to play this for the first time this morning, a quick hour of pwnage and It was frigging awesome. Though I came across one problem. I've mashed my mouse sensitivity riiight down as this is how I like to play but it has not put it down for the Veichels, So the tank turret moves a zillion MPH and I cant aim for shit. Can you change this at all??

What do you mean back in the day when mods were big? Mods are STILL big. Basic art production, some new code and a few levels? Talk about EXTRAVAGENT art production, shitloads of new code and new levels. 3D sound isn't something that the mod developers typically have to work with. That shit isn't made to be 3D, it's the engine that handles it. Sorry but have you PLAYED or SEEN any mods in recent years? They're all over the place and they're incredibly professional. Let me tell you also, they do not have the armies of people working on them that the full games do either. Why? Because they don't require them despite what you think.

Of course modding is harder, because you're dealing with somewhat more complex games, but that point is completely nullified by the fact that these people are incredibly talented. Does it give them issues? Sure why not, do they cope with it and still produce fantastic shit? Hell yes. This notion that modders just don't have the resources or capabilities to cope with modern games is bullshit. These modern games aren't all that more complex than their predecessors. How do you get off saying there is "too much work" when modders do it all the time, still today? Modding isn't some lost art, it's a current evolution.

I seriously don't ****ing get what you guys are going on about. How is battlefield any different, other than the fact that they've made it really hard to produce mods? I don't understand how you're drawing the line at this latest generation of games and saying, "nope, they can't handle this... too much work, too much art... they just can't produce." That's ridiculous.

I think you guys need to actually learn about what you're talking about... learn about the kind of shit modders are producing today.

 

[stemot]

Anyone else having trouble getting the game to launch? It just keep's giving me a windows crash error as soon as I launch it.

 

[Stormy]

I dont get why you are getting so defensive about this.

I agree with you, they should release mod tools and allow people to make mods and I agree that there are a lot of talented folk out there.

My argument as I just explained, is the massive amount of work they need to do along with the added technological hurdles makes it hard to produce a full scale mod in a decent time frame and because of this its harder to get a quality game made. When I was at blackrock working on Split/Second we had 140 development staff, around 60+ artists 60+ coders all working 40 hour weeks + late nights and weekends + a massive outsource team and the game took over two years to produce. And its the same across the industry as these games get bigger and more complex.

From my past modding experience things take a very long time to get things done, its not a job for 99% of the team, they spend a few hours a week making some props or doing some levels or code so progress is slow. Decent people get employed by game company, people get bored progress is slow, others find better things to do and things die. The mods that do make it tend to be a bit buggy or really just don't have the same quality / polish as full retail games so again its very hard to stand out. Why would I want to play a game that feels kind of unfinished when there is a new big quality shooter out every year. They are finding it much harder to compeat.

All in all a few mods will stand out and do pretty well wile most either turn out crap, are run by 11 year olds or just plain die. And the few that do make it are compeating with big blockbuster games with small teams and to much work.

I'm all for modding and hope they release the tools, I just think the glory days are over.

 

[hool10]

Not reading the TL: DR posts but my stance on mods is that it probably is too difficult to put out mod tools. The amount of time and effort needed to make an SDK can probably be used to make some crazy DLC or fixing bugs/adding stuff. I know that DLC should be done by mods but you will probably get a buggy mod and is terrible. Oh and it took years to make.

 

[Ennui]

I dont get why you are getting so defensive about this.

I agree with you, they should release mod tools and allow people to make mods and I agree that there are a lot of talented folk out there.

My argument as I just explained, is the massive amount of work they need to do along with the added technological hurdles makes it hard to produce a full scale mod in a decent time frame and because of this its harder to get a quality game made. When I was at blackrock working on Split/Second we had 140 development staff, around 60+ artists 60+ coders all working 40 hour weeks + late nights and weekends + a massive outsource team and the game took over two years to produce. And its the same across the industry as these games get bigger and more complex.

From my past modding experience things take a very long time to get things done, its not a job for 99% of the team, they spend a few hours a week making some props or doing some levels or code so progress is slow. Decent people get employed by game company, people get bored progress is slow, others find better things to do and things die. The mods that do make it tend to be a bit buggy or really just don't have the same quality / polish as full retail games so again its very hard to stand out. Why would I want to play a game that feels kind of unfinished when there is a new big quality shooter out every year. They are finding it much harder to compeat.

All in all a few mods will stand out and do pretty well wile most either turn out crap, are run by 11 year olds or just plain die. And the few that do make it are compeating with big blockbuster games with small teams and to much work.

I'm all for modding and hope they release the tools, I just think the glory days are over.

This is pretty much true. While I think it's still a poor decision for DICE to not release an SDK I do understand the decision. What they hold to is that they aren't against the idea of mod tools, but since the FB2 development workflow is so intense (from what I understand, in order to compile a level/map you basically have to recompile ALL of the art assets for that map in the process, which DICE prolly has a supercomputer cluster to do for them) they decided not to prioritize it and work instead of getting BF3 launch ready. One of the DICE engine coders wrote a great post back in 2010 on the EAUK forums about why the Frostbite 1.5 tools and workflow were unsuited for public release from a technical standpoint. TO make mod tools they would need to spend quite a bit of effort.

Also, I don't know about you, but as much as I wanna play with that beautiful engine, the idea of trying to produce/find custom assets of that caliber and quantity is certainly intimidating.

I'm hoping we at least get some kind of sandbox editor a la Crysis that you can play with to use pre-existing BF3 assets to make custom maps and stuff. NOt as cool or powerful as a full SDK/tools but it'd still satisfy my urge to tinker with FB2.

 

[Stormy]

I'm hoping we at least get some kind of sandbox editor a la Crysis that you can play with to use pre-existing BF3 assets to make custom maps and stuff. NOt as cool or powerful as a full SDK/tools but it'd still satisfy my urge to tinker with FB2.

This is best imho. Things need to be powerful and fast. Chances are tho crysis created their mapping tool for in house use and then with it being pretty simple and easy released it to the public rather then creating it for the public.

Creating games is not cheap and spending hundreds of thousands of dollers creating SDK tools for no return does not sound very appealing. I'd say a release of an SDK would be more dependant on how they have produced their inhouse mapping tools and the tools ease of use.

 

[Stigmata]

[baleeted]

Yeah pretty much. Though mods DO drive sales. The only reason I bought HL1 was Counter-Strike.

 

[Ennui]

Still from a marketing or business standpoint it does seem to be a much stronger and more sensible decision to focus all your resources on the game/product itself and make it that much stronger and more likely to succeed, especially with something like SDK / mod tools which can always be added later (and in fact as I recall it no previous Battlefield title ever had mod tools at launch).

Of course, I'm sure some of it is just EA being typical evil EA and wanting to keep Frostbite 2 in-house (they've already made it clear that nobody will be using FB2 outside of EA's own many studios) and wanting to charge money for DLC and expansions.

 

[Vegeta897]

Also, I don't know about you, but as much as I wanna play with that beautiful engine, the idea of trying to produce/find custom assets of that caliber and quantity is certainly intimidating.

What you find intimidating is all the more call for modders out there to sink their teeth into it.

Raz said it best: "Never underestimate what those people determined to make shit can do."

I'm a little shocked that you're taking this kind of position, Ennui. Disappointed, even.

Why would I want to play a game that feels kind of unfinished when there is a new big quality shooter out every year.

And this is straight up depressing. Does nobody give a shit about longevity anymore? With an SDK there would definitely be plenty added after a year, and that's assuming you're going to be bored with the game in a year. Which is pathetic.

 

[Viperidae]

You people will eat whatever EA shits down your throat. People have been complaining for the past 7 years how Valve's SDK sucks balls. UE3 and Crysis' editors have been lauded for their ease of use and early release. Yet suddenly it's ok for a company to not release ANY kind of map editor, not because of time or budget constraints, but because they're afraid of mod developers?

Everyone here has reaped the benefits of what dedicated modding teams have done. BF2. DotA. CS. DoD. Portal 1/2. HL2. Half the people in the ****ing industry got their start with a modding portfolio. Just look at Valve's staff list and count the number of references to modding before they were hired. You shame this site and the legacy mods and modders have given us.

 

[Unfocused]

Any good BF3 gameplay videos out there yet (bonus points if they contain teamplay)? Youtube seems to be full of videos from the beta.

Speaking of mod development times, what happened to Black Mesa Source? I see it's not released on their website, but I can't be bothered to read why this thing isn't out yet and thought that maybe someone here knew.

 

[hool10]

Speaking of mod development times, what happened to Black Mesa Source? I see it's not released on their website, but I can't be bothered to read why this thing isn't out yet and thought that maybe someone here knew.

They all have lives and are working at other game companies. Another mod that won't see the light of day.

 

[Ren.182]

And this is straight up depressing. Does nobody give a shit about longevity anymore? With an SDK there would definitely be plenty added after a year, and that's assuming you're going to be bored with the game in a year. Which is pathetic.

This.

First off, there are still homebrew games being released for the Dreamcast in Japan. The Dreamcast came out in what? '98? It "died" long ago, but people are still making stuff for it! That's seriously extended the life of the console.

And again, I was playing BF2 for years, BC2 for well over a year and other games like Counter-Strike and Team Fortress continue to be the most played online games years after their releases. BF2 is still going strong with mods like PR still being updated on it and the source engine has countless mods.

Like Raz said, people can make anything if they set their minds to it, sure it make take them a little longer due to a number of reasons, but if they have the passion it'll get done.

Anyway, I unlocked a couple of new weapons last night (SCAR and M416) before I logged off last night. Can't wait to sink my teeth into them later

 

[MuToiD_MaN]

Has anyone managed to get some good, tight squad gameplay going? For example, having a squad leader set an objective and the squad mates actually going there? Sigh, how I miss having a commander ... I'm not sure if that's the fix this game needs, but I feel like there is a real lack of player cohesion BF2 had. I don't know if it's the map design or the mentality of the players or what, but it's usually 32 lone wolves out there.

 

[Dynasty]

Didnt Infinity Ward say they didn't want to release any mod tools because it would cost them too much money? Oh how I roared. Imagine what their staff's petty cash must be like...

Unlocked the G36c earlier. This thing is ridiculous accurate and powerful. Cant bring myself to use the UMP45. THAT is overpowered.

 

[stemot]

I'm a complete ****ing noob at this game having not played any Battlefield online before, but in the hour I have spent online after the 2 hours trying to get origin to make the game run I have really enjoyed it. Just wish I could get on some of the bigger 64p maps with vehicles. Never mind I'm sure I'll get in some the next couple of days.

Also, why have I got to add friends on Battlelog separately to friends in Origin. ****ing annoying sending 2 requests for each person.

 

[Unfocused]

Has anyone managed to get some good, tight squad gameplay going? For example, having a squad leader set an objective and the squad mates actually going there? Sigh, how I miss having a commander ... I'm not sure if that's the fix this game needs, but I feel like there is a real lack of player cohesion BF2 had. I don't know if it's the map design or the mentality of the players or what, but it's usually 32 lone wolves out there.

Hopefully it's because the game is new and people are getting to know the maps and feel of the weapons etc. before they focus on the objectives. When I'm playing a map for the first time, I have a tendency to grab a sniper kit and just familiarize myself with the map, not taking as much part in the action as I do later.

 

[repiV]

That's why I prefer playing Rush. If you could round up enough people to play a proper organised game of Conquest, it would easily be better, but I find the game just flows better and is far more fun on public servers playing Rush.

Same reason I never bothered playing CTF on public servers in Quake 3. Unfortunately Battlefield doesn't lend itself quite so well to competitive play which cuts out that option somewhat.

 

[Raziaar]

I dont get why you are getting so defensive about this.

I agree with you, they should release mod tools and allow people to make mods and I agree that there are a lot of talented folk out there.

My argument as I just explained, is the massive amount of work they need to do along with the added technological hurdles makes it hard to produce a full scale mod in a decent time frame and because of this its harder to get a quality game made. When I was at blackrock working on Split/Second we had 140 development staff, around 60+ artists 60+ coders all working 40 hour weeks + late nights and weekends + a massive outsource team and the game took over two years to produce. And its the same across the industry as these games get bigger and more complex.

From my past modding experience things take a very long time to get things done, its not a job for 99% of the team, they spend a few hours a week making some props or doing some levels or code so progress is slow. Decent people get employed by game company, people get bored progress is slow, others find better things to do and things die. The mods that do make it tend to be a bit buggy or really just don't have the same quality / polish as full retail games so again its very hard to stand out. Why would I want to play a game that feels kind of unfinished when there is a new big quality shooter out every year. They are finding it much harder to compeat.

All in all a few mods will stand out and do pretty well wile most either turn out crap, are run by 11 year olds or just plain die. And the few that do make it are compeating with big blockbuster games with small teams and to much work.

I'm all for modding and hope they release the tools, I just think the glory days are over.

I think the term modification is getting lost on people. Show me a mod that required an army of developers like the full games they modded do.

Games before the current generation of games ALSO required an army of employees to realize... that doesn't mean anything at all about anything because it has nothing to do with modding the game which isn't about reinventing the wheel, it's about adding new hub cabs.

 

[SpotEnemyBoats]

I'm wondering, has anyone had any luck blowing up the radio antenna in Caspian Border?

 

[Shakermaker]

If you want to level up Assault, join an Operation Metro CQ 64 server and go on a revive spree. If you manage to land a couple of kills as well, you can easily spam your way to 4k - 6k points (on the scoreboard, excluding ribbon bonuses). It also got me the Medic dog tags. I didn't even know you could get class specific ones.

I'm wondering, has anyone had any luck blowing up the radio antenna in Caspian Border?

It's a scripted event on the Rush version I think. Played it yesterday but I forgot to check.

 

[Stigmata]

Some people have said that you can topple it by C4'ing the support wire anchors, but I haven't seen any evidence

Shaker, you may have just conjured a way to make Metro Conquest bearable!

 

[Krynn72]

Hmm, I can't remember who called this. Was it you guys, or me, Vegeta and Viper (and Knut?)?

 

[Viperidae]

Hey guys, it's just me dropping in this thread to talk about the SP again.

Oh, yes.

Remember how a choice few of us thought the SP trailers were indicative of a terrible rails SP?

Let's take a trip through memory lane...

**** SAKE IT'S COD

WHAT IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU

this is the same kind of footage that appeared before MW2 when infinity ward had obviously just finished watching generation kill and they decided to piggy back that ultra realism dialogue, movement, sound and atmosphere but stick shitty gameplay over the top of it.

Yeah that [trailer] was really stupid. How is it a video game? What choices does the player have?

None. But it looks pretty!

i'm comparing what we saw in that trailer to a COD game. the scripted sequences looked right out it, from the stacking up against a door to the feet flung in the air from an explosion. i've seen it so many times that when something like this gets released what am i supposed to do, be blown away by the fact a soldier elbow bashes a door? obviously not, because the only thing people have good to say about this trailer is ''yeah graphics look great, looking forward to multiplayer!!''

From all the posts that claim this is just a carbon copy of Activision's bullshit, I haven't seen a compelling argument that makes the comparison. Scripted scenes? Big deal, every game has them.

In Half-Life 2, I could spend 4 minutes to jerk off with two hands while the game played for me.

You have no basis for saying that these animations are completely scripted. Of course the EVENT is, because they want that enemy to shoot that truck with an rpg 15 seconds after that street battle, but by all appearances the knockback animation is completely dynamic.

ITS A CINEMATIC. A SCRIPTED SEQUENCE. It is not at all "by all appearances" completely dynamic. Its entirely forced and breaks the flow of the game. When you get close to the car a rocket blows it up and knocks you back. THAT IS A TRIGGERED CINEMATIC. It will not happen anywhere else in an actually dynamic situation. Mark my words.

Oh I did, bro. Right now I could kiss your doggy lips.

You guys would whine about anything. We're on a Half-Life forum and you're complaining about scripting and linearity. Let's all moan about how modern games attempt to be cinematic and have realistic dialogue and even make cursory attempts at having themes. The fact that Call of Duty is cinematic and scripted doesn't mean that any other modern-era shooter is automatically also bad for taking that path.

The theme of not being able to due stuff?

You're making huge extrapolations based on one promotional gameplay video.

And we were so very, very right.

I don't go to Dice and expect flawlessly amazing SP experiences. I play their game for the multiplayer.

This is my favourite comment of all. "It doesn't matter that the SP is shitty because the MP will be awesome." Viper, why do you give a shit?

Every time you get a disconnect, every time Origin ****s something up, every time the netcode lags and you get shot behind a wall, every time you curse the fact you can't talk to your squadmates in voice, every time you curse having to reinstall Windows just to rebind Q, every time you complain about lack of balance, every time you complain that basic things like defibrillators and flares need to be unlocked, and each and every one of you who had to jump through hoops to get the game working, remember this:


Every, single, penny, that was spent on SP could have been spent on MP instead.


And now your money's gone to fund another shitty SP campaign. Mark my words.

 

[SpotEnemyBoats]

Didn't DICE spend 5 years developing this game? That's more than enough time from then and now, to iron out the dynamics of the game. I don't buy the argument "hurr DICE wasted tiem and effort of the singleplayer, and ****ed up multiplayer!"

Actually, this is the most polished release of any BF game to date. DICE is notorious for making poorly optimized games upon release.

 

[Dynasty]

Yet to see the tower down in Caspian, should be epic. Might try that later. Is it only C4 or can you do with a tank?

 

[Stigmata]

Grand Bazaar is currently the best map in the game. Whatever your favourite map is right now, is the wrong answer.

 

[Shakermaker]

Yet to see the tower down in Caspian, should be epic. Might try that later. Is it only C4 or can you do with a tank?

Like I stated above, it is a scripted event in the Rush mode of the map.

Shaker, you may have just conjured a way to make Metro Conquest bearable!

It was the first time I was actually having fun on the map. It is still broken as far as I am concerned but this way you can turn the broken-ness into your advantage.

Oh and why is Viper having a fit? He mad?

 

[hool10]

[video=youtube_share;zvImOXgADIQ]http://youtu.be/zvImOXgADIQ[/video]

 

[stemot]

Come to the conclusion I actually suck big hairy nuts at this game. Makes me remember why I stick to SP games.

 

[Escaep]

Oh and why is Viper having a fit? He mad?

He enjoys dynamic, non-scripted games like Half Life.

 

[knut]

christ, anyone in here actually going to talk about the game at all, or is all just faff about modding and what's wrong with the singleplayer from here on? come on folks, what's good? how's the amphibious vehicles? the base jump from damavand? the jets, the new 'copters, weapons and any difference in them from the beta, the mortar, the boat assault on the canal map, the ebb and flow of operation firestorm... et al.

eager to hear good, coherent, informative and well-typed thoughts from folk off of here about the multiplayer!

 

[YROC]

I've played that Damavand map like five times and i'm always the side that doesn't get to jump. Russians, I think. And that map's center tunnel area is such a cluster****. RPG is your best friend in there.

 

[hool10]

christ, anyone in here actually going to talk about the game at all, or is all just faff about modding and what's wrong with the singleplayer from here on? come on folks, what's good? how's the amphibious vehicles? the base jump from damavand? the jets, the new 'copters, weapons and any difference in them from the beta, the mortar, the boat assault on the canal map, the ebb and flow of operation firestorm... et al.

eager to hear good, coherent, informative and well-typed thoughts from folk off of here about the multiplayer!

Too busy playing the game, lol. Sometimes I wish somebody else was playing or I could spectate. It looks like some war movie all the time. A few things I found out on Damavand Peak in the tunnels that work out. Spawn as Support and you can get tons of points. However there is a spot that you can camp and it's looking under a giant earth hauler. The enemy comes out and you can shoot them under the hauler. Another place and map I love is Noashnir Canals. You can use the AA gun on the Aircraft Carrrier to blast away anything on the first cap point. You can also turn on Infared Vision on the helicopter (might be an unlock) and snipe with the gunner at the Carrier. Just keep spamming Q. Another thing I noticed yesterday is that the characters put on a grimace on sustained fire bursts. The game really does look real. *Hey can anybody play with me in co-op? You get exclusive weapons to use in multi-player! I'm also a pretty good chopper pilot.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

God I hate The Cynical Brit. His shit just seem so forced.

 

[Stormy]

The Mortors are terrible and piss me off big time. Sitting in cover thinking your hiding then bam bam bam. They remind me of the shitty kill streaks from cod.

Other then that and some crappy mouse sensitivity bugs I'm loving it

Also infact, AA guns are so bloody powerful. When you take off in a chopper you pretty much insta die from some uber Gatling gun. Its pretty annoying.

 

[ray_MAN]

The Mortors are terrible and piss me off big time. Sitting in cover thinking your hiding then bam bam bam. They remind me of the shitty kill streaks from cod.

Yes, well that's what mortars generally are supposed to do. Don't cluster up in one area, and don't sit in one spot for too long, and you won't have to deal with the mortars!

 

[knut]

God I hate The Cynical Brit. His shit just seem so forced.

really? i find him quite dynamic, though i'm fairly new to his videos. i think in regards to how much negativity he has to say every minute in the singleplayer video, can he be blamed? just watching the video makes me groan, so i don't find his thoughts too forced here.

 

[Stigmata]

Is TotalBiscuit The Cynical Brit? Because I used to HATE HATE HATE Biscuit's personality and voice but now I really enjoy his videos.

Also yeah mortars are pretty bullshit right now. You're just sitting there in total silence, and all of a sudden BOOM DEAD SQUAD. If you're in the zone of fire when a mortar is incoming, there really needs to be a sound cue, so that the mortar is a territorial deterrent rather than a free-kill machine.

 

[knut]

i was really excited to unlock the mortar, but i've watched a few videos (still not played, few more days yet) and it doesn't look fun in the slightest. i hate overpowered weapons because of how guilty they make me feel; i was under the impression it would only injure and suppress enemies much like throwing a random grenade might, or at the very least it wouldn't be so accurate to fall exactly where you target. think the mortar strike from BC2 - shells never landed exactly where you marked. it looks like the opposite here with shells falling near enough directly on top of people.

am i right in understanding it's infinite ammo, too? it should only refill ammo if you have an ammo box near you, personally, and after say three grenades it should take a while to reload the cycle, much like it takes a while to restock hand grenades to deter people spamming them.

i was looking forward to using it as a method of raining down harassing fire on the advancing or defending team. not fussed about using it if it's unfair

/modest player