Catholic school board pulls The Golden Compass from library: author is atheist

[PortalStormzzzz]

Meh, it can be changes so that if everyone was one religion, the government could take control. Either way, you have to have at least 2 religions and one atheist group to keep the people thinking and the government from total domination. Monopoly, either for business or religion, sucks. I'll add that in right now.


Also, I only did what someone requested. A walk through of the worse possible scenario.

 

[Sulkdodds]

No, Absinthe requested you to support your argument. What you wrote is bad fanfiction characterised by the phrase: "Suppose this happened". Well, suppose I had a solid gold toilet?

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

I think I supported my argument by doing as he said. A step by step view of how monopoly of anything causes the destruction of freedom. alright, so I used atheism. Replace that with anything else people believe in and you get the same equation.

 

[Polaris]

alright, so I used atheism. Replace that with anything else people believe in and you get the same equation.

People don't believe in atheism, it's not belief. People like me don't believe in God and that's called atheism. Btw How old are you?

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

No, it's just a lack of belief. A system of viewing the universe. It has the same effects as a monopoly as would a monopoly of Christianity. There is nothing special here. Every belief or lack of such put into a monopoly is never good.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think I supported my argument by doing as he said. A step by step view of how monopoly of anything causes the destruction of freedom. alright, so I used atheism. Replace that with anything else people believe in and you get the same equation.

No, no. Support your argument means 'show us how it would happen based on real evidence and the real world'. It means explaining what you say so that your argument follows logically and coherently from one to another. At every turn you must make sure you are making sense.

Nobody told you to write a science fiction story. But that's basically what you do:

Suppose the North American Union, when it is officially made in 2010, starts issuing edicts of broad interpretation that anyone who preaches is a terrorist. Such already happened in a recent document made: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...bill=h110-1955

First, you've not explained to us how or why we should be so sure the North American Union could be able to "pass edicts". It's not a government. It's a an economic and security committee. It can't just pass laws that no people in any of its countries agree with that apply to all of them. Furthermore, you have not explained exactly how or why we might expect it to create such a law. The bill you cite is US specific, not anything to do with the Union. It expressly forbids the violation of constitutional rights in the execution of its precepts, and I'll remind you that freedom of religion is in fact a constitutional right in the USA. Indeed, a very fundamental thing that you fail to take note of is that the bill is not a criminal law per se; rather it entails the creation of an advisory committee that will investigate into the causes and prevention of homegrown religious terrorism. The committee has no powers beyond hearings/admissions and contracting - it can't arrest people. You have left unsaid, as if we could guess at the workings of your brain, how this commission in the execution of its duties could move from advising and investigating to making oppressive laws and persecuting people; you ahve left unsaid exactly how its very vague role in research could possibly evolve into the forming of a concrete law to forbid any and all preaching (such a law is in no way within the remit of this bill).

Basically, none of what you say fits together; each statement of your argument is a non sequitur. Your argument plays as follows:

The North American Union will be able and willing to issue broad laws binding all countries within. (how? why?)
It might decide all preaching is terrorism. (why? where did this come from?)
My evidence for this is that the US legislature is mooting the formation of a committee to investigate domestic radicalisation. (what? how does this lead to the above?)

In short: it makes no sense.

I could go on to the rest of your post but I could be here forever. All Absinthe was asking you to do is explain how and why the things you claim can or might be true; to back up your arguments with logic and maybe a little concrete evidence - to remain within the realm of plausibility - to make sure each step of your argument leads logically on to the next. Instead, you spun out this mad tale that proceeds upon a series of unfounded "what ifs", each one of which depends - and only very tenuously - on the previous one.

I could well ask "what if Portalstormzzz stopped posting rubbish?" Unfortunately I have no evidence that it'll ever happen.

 

[Avoidist]

No, it's just a lack of belief. A system of viewing the universe. It has the same effects as a monopoly as would a monopoly of Christianity. There is nothing special here. Every belief or lack of such put into a monopoly is never good.

I think you are missing a point here: atheism does not lead to unity on its own. It is not an enclosed belief system, it simply states that you do not believe in a god or gods. There is more to a person's beliefs than their religious orientation. Debate over religion can quickly change to debate over a political system or an economic approach. Or chocolate, it doesn't matter. Religion is just one thing that people divide themselves over, and unfortunately the individuals involved in such debates are not always prone to rational discussion. I'd much rather have a debate over political systems than religion any day.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Portalstormzzz, I think your overreacting in this NAU buisness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_american_union
Its being formed simply because China and the EU are getting more econically powerful, and to (presumbly) help counter terroists, drugs, weapons, etc. bieng smuggled over the border.

My god, its like GRAW.

 

[Jintor]

You automatically assume I speak for Christians only?

Wait what? He didn't mention Christianity anywhere there.

/EDIT Nvrmind.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

Blatently.

In the third book in the series the main characters basically kill God, or at least the Church's 'God' who has been posing as the Creator.

Thats basically a recurring theme in SG1, and its not like that has been pulled off the air

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Portalstormzzz, I think your overreacting in this NAU buisness.

I overreact to life itself. It's a problem, but who cares.

And Sulkdodds, I did explain how they could pass such edicts. Once everyone thinks the same, the internet is regulated, and the media controlled (not that is isn't already), then they can easily change how we think. Germany did it in WW2, The Pope did it in the Crusades, and Mao did it in China. Once you control the masses mind, you control their actions.

Controlling people isn't that hard when everyone thinks that their being taken care of and happy.

I think you are missing a point here: atheism does not lead to unity on its own. It is not an enclosed belief system, it simply states that you do not believe in a god or gods...

Once it's a normalcy, then ideas begin to balance off until everyone thinks the same. Look at the Christian majority of America. 30 Years ago, they all had their own ideas, their own way of thinking. They elected leaders from every sect. Then, the leaders began o think alike. Those who elected them assumed they were speaking truth and believed that the other sects were friends , thus the Christian right was born, leading to the unified opinions of most Christians. Once this unified opinion was attached to the Republican Party, the rest was history. The same could happen to Atheism. In fact, if it were not for atheists and opposition to the Christian right pointing out their errors, this unified opinion would have stayed united. Luckily, the atheists in the pat 7 years have destroyed this common thinking buy bringing down Bush. Now, the Christian right distrusts their leaders. Bush has been abandoned. The Christian right has split straight down the middle.

 

[Jintor]

Once it's a normalcy, then ideas begin to balance off until everyone thinks the same. Look at the Christian majority of America. 30 Years ago, they all had their own ideas, their own way of thinking. They elected leaders from every sect. Then, the leaders began o think alike. Those who elected them assumed they were speaking truth and believed that the other sects were friends , thus the Christian right was born, leading to the unified opinions of most Christians. Once this unified opinion was attached to the Republican Party, the rest was history. The same could happen to Atheism. In fact, if it were not for atheists and opposition to the Christian right pointing out their errors, this unified opinion would have stayed united. Luckily, the atheists in the pat 7 years have destroyed this common thinking buy bringing down Bush. Now, the Christian right distrusts their leaders. Bush has been abandoned. The Christian right has split straight down the middle.

All I can see is 'Speculation, speculation, speculation'. There's only one thing that Atheists are united on and that's the non-existance of god. Everything else is argue-fodder.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

well, then their non belief in God is speculation also, just like my belief in God.

 

[Jintor]

...what the **** does that have to do with anything?

 

[Asknoone]

PortalStormzzzz, stop. I can't keep /facepalming like this. It's like, a facepalm per post; can you imagine how painful it is at this stage?

 

[Eejit]

Thats basically a recurring theme in SG1, and its not like that has been pulled off the air

Yeah thing is killing a being who has posed as a false Christian God for all of history is a little different from killing members of the Egyptian pantheon in the eyes of pretty much anyone who thinks about it for a second.

Christianity being one of the worlds biggest religions, while worship of Ra, Anubis etc. has been dead for many centuries...

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

...what the **** does that have to do with anything?

You Brought it up.


And Sorry Samon, my words hurt many. What can I do?

Gah, this whole conversation is pointless.

To get back on topic: Catholic schools- Free to ban and allow as they wish (In America at least) because they're not obligated by the Public school system

Public school system- separate entity that can do as it pleases with government money.

In America, the day that Catholic or any religious schools are baned is never. They are part of the capitalistic society. It's all money, and it's all competition.

And Jintor, if the government does give money to catholic schools in your country, then close them down.

 

[GreatEmperor]

I think I supported my argument by doing as he said. A step by step view of how monopoly of anything causes the destruction of freedom. alright, so I used atheism. Replace that with anything else people believe in and you get the same equation.

Atheism is not a belief, it is the lack of a superstition, one very large, but still a supposition based on no facts. Atheism is just saying that we do not believe it with reason.

Religion is not just one thing but rather an entire set of rules and values along with moral assertiveness that makes it very prone to conformity and thus senseless clan conflict. It is way more like the conformist organization you so fear out of the whatever the f*ck youve been talking about, even though government is worth distrusting and should not be so accepted without monitoring of some sort

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

I already explained how it could be used as a tool, read the whole thing.

Atheism is no different then any other belief system except you don't believe there is something else. You still follow crazy laws and everything.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Atheism is no different then any other belief system except you don't believe there is something else. You still follow crazy laws and everything.

Name one. Go on. Name a law of atheism.

Guess what, there isn't a book of atheism. Atheists don't have to follow any rules at all, though I and most atheists follow "The Law" set down by governments and I personnally follow secular humanism.
But not every atheist is a humanist. So we have no laws.

 

[Jintor]

Name one. Go on. Name a law of atheism.

Guess what, there isn't a book of atheism. Atheists don't have to follow any rules at all, though I and most atheists follow "The Law" set down by governments and I personnally follow secular humanism.
But not every atheist is a humanist. So we have no laws.

No laws as athiests. We're not anarchists, you know!

Well, some of us are.

:/

 

[Pesmerga]

All atheists are anarchists!

 

[Absinthe]

Atheism is no different then any other belief system except you don't believe there is something else. You still follow crazy laws and everything.

Up until this point I've tried to restrain myself.

But you are a god damn moron.

 

[Eejit]

Atheism is no different then any other belief system except you don't believe there is something else. You still follow crazy laws and everything.

Yep like

In the city of York, it is legal to murder a Scotsman within the ancient city walls, but only if he is carrying a bow and arrow.

It is an act of treason to place a postage stamp bearing the British monarch upside down.

In Chester, Welshmen are banned from entering the city before sunrise and from staying after sunset.


Foolish atheists! Theists were told by god to ignore such laws about 50 years ago.

 

[Absinthe]

What?

 

[Avoidist]

If what he was saying is true then he's making a relatively coherent argument using a heavy dose of sarcasm. Though I struggle to see the direct connections between some of his arguments and religious belief, it sounds more like laws imposed under the banner of tradition rather than theism. And with that in mind he might have been advocating Portal's arguments. I doubt it though.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm confused too. If he's saying that crazy laws exist outside of religion... well, duh. But absurd anachronisms like the ones he posted don't really have a whole lot of support. Hell, most people don't even know about them. Nobody really cares if you break them (except maybe a hardass). And if people still abide by them, it's usually out of the fear of a reprimand rather than appreciation.

Whatever the case, I'm more interested in hearing what some of the laws the atheistic belief system has.

 

[Eejit]

I was being sarcastic about Portal's claim that atheists have their own crazy laws by saying that those outdated ones only apply to them.

I guess it was a bit convoluted now that I think about it

 

[Jintor]

The only real 'law' that Athiests have (That is to say, the one trait that is absolutely common to Athiests) is that they deny the existance of God, ammirite.

It's the only truly binding trait or thought process that they follow?

 

[Eejit]

Nonono, they must also flame religion and religious people at any opportunity... apparently

 

[Absinthe]

I'm gonna round all you believers onto an island and then I'm gonna bomb the shit out of it.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Nonono, they must also flame religion and religious people at any opportunity... apparently

Not all atheists do that.

But I do!

 

[Jintor]

You get the impression that that's what all atheists do because the atheists who don't do it turn invisible.

 

[GreatEmperor]

I already explained how it could be used as a tool, read the whole thing.

Atheism is no different then any other belief system except you don't believe there is something else. You still follow crazy laws and everything.

It is not a tool for anybody, it does not try to put ideologies into your head, it simply is looking at the world without preconceptions, though religion gives you a set of rules and resists evidence conflicting these rules. It forestalls progress and can be used to influence people with irrational separation from one another.

Atheism is only a word due to the popularity of such mythologies, it is reason and that is something that is useful

There are no rules for it, not a belief system, just not being blinded by a specific one and thus a solid mindset

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Every single thing can be used as a tool if used correctly. That's just the way it is.

Also, name a law of atheism? Don't believe in God, there. Duh!

Atheism is an open ended belief system, allowing it's followers to think as they wish. Come to think of it, that's pretty much how every religion is if it's leaders don't bother doing anything. As I said ages ago, 40 years ago, the Christian right had no leaders, then they joined with Republicans, now there broken again. Everyone finds leaders eventually.

 

[GreatEmperor]

Every single thing can be used as a tool if used correctly. That's just the way it is.

Also, name a law of atheism? Don't believe in God, there. Duh!

Atheism is an open ended belief system, allowing it's followers to think as they wish. Come to think of it, that's pretty much how every religion is if it's leaders don't bother doing anything. As I said ages ago, 40 years ago, the Christian right had no leaders, then they joined with Republicans, now there broken again. Everyone finds leaders eventually.

Trying to tell me how it is? dipsh*t

Thats the defining characteristic, not a condition

Religion is full of rules but you really cant pick which to say are accurate, all of them are based on no facts other than a book, saying one is applicable but not the other is laughable. If you hold one in your peanut skull as applicable, so must all other statements by that organization be. This is what separates the various mythologies and makes them appealing to many, they are easy to follow and take responsibility as well as desire for distinguishing thoughts away from people, this is what causes conformity, not an open minded state like atheism, the systems of religion are extremely closed minded and averse to change, making them medieval and defensive. Allowing any new information in would be dangerous to current claims and throw many doubts onto something requiring no critical analysis to be produced well. Attaching so many beliefs together is why they are easy to control and manipulate unlike an open belief that only frees thought processes for actions that can be unprecedented

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Atheism is an open ended belief system, allowing it's followers to think as they wish. Come to think of it, that's pretty much how every religion is if it's leaders don't bother doing anything.

I hope I read that wrong.

Because religion isn't "open ended". Though most religious people nowadays are hypocrits and pick and choose from their books about what they want to believe, they still have to follow the ten commandments at least.

One of these is about respecting your parents correct? So what if your parents are members of the BNP or KKK? What if they are pedophile rapists? You have to respect them, or you'll go to hell.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Respect your parents doesn't mean you respect them if their monsters. Religion also requires common sense, you know.

And I'm a Christian-Universalist. So It's is kind of open ended. I don't follow any rules. Sure I go to church every week, but thats because I'm nerd and that's the way I roll.

But no, you didn't read that wrong. Most religious people don't even follow half the laws of their faith. It's not like humans are perfect.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Respect your parents doesn't mean you respect them if their monsters. Religion also requires common sense, you know.

The bible doesn't actually say that though.

And I'm a Christian-Universalist. So It's is kind of open ended. I don't follow any rules. Sure I go to church every week, but thats because I'm nerd and that's the way I roll.

What does bieng a nerd have to do with going to church?

But no, you didn't read that wrong. Most religious people don't even follow half the laws of their faith. It's not like humans are perfect.

Meh, fair do's, if they want to be hypocrits.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

I'm not exactly sure where hypocrits come in.

And the Bible also says nothing about internet usage. perhaps all Christians should cease the use of the internets because the Bible doesn't say anything? Maybe all Christians should turn off all electricity ans lead to mass chaos from teh power companies going out of business from bankruptcy. Good God, you people treat the Bible like it's the Word of God... Oh wait Anyway, half of it was made by corrupt clergymen in the decline of the Jewish Empire. use your brain and sort out the right and wrong. Religion isn't suppose to enslave you to follow every single rule it has, it's suppose to spark thoughts.

It's like talking to a strict constitutionalist.