Combine and Xen Connection (A long, Comprehensive Theory of evererything HL)

[Jandor]

We are moving away from the Combine - Xen - Earth topic into the realms of G-Man again.

You know something, I think points on both sides can be explained away rather easily. Whether or not the Combine controlled Xen is something that will not be shown until an expansion/hl3. They might never tell use ever, then I would probably die.

But, my beliefs are that the Combine did control Xen, that G-Man is a human, that Race-X have gone into hiding, that there are multiple citadels, that the Combine dont know how to use Xen outside of Xen, the Xenians dont either, That Xen has a rocky core and is something akin to a Gas Giant, there is more, but you'd get bored.

There, my thought's mostly summed up. I can back up most of them with something, and someone can explain it away, most likely I can do the same with there points. If someone can prove me wrong, I'd be quite happy to change my theories.



However, the speculating and arguing is still quite fun

 

[[AciD ZerO]]

not true.....

 

[ríomhaire]

We aren't going to convince each other. I'll admit the Combine not on Xen does have some merit so I will stop this arguement, though I am not changing my beliefs. To sum it up, I think:
Combine controled Xen
G-man is an unknown alien species
There is more than 1 citalel
The Combine use an entirely different type of teleportation
Antlions are from Xen
All species of headcrab evolved naturaly (the jury is still out on the fast crab though)
Xen has a main planetary body that the chunks orbit
Nihilanth was the original ruler of Xen

 

[PickledGecko]

@Pai-Mei

I just loaded up HL1 and went to the balcony at the Houndeye bit expecting to see a door texture on one of the walls in the room the G-Man walks into. You are right, it’s a dead end. Discounting him jumping off the balcony, which seems pretty silly, I will concede that he has means to travel in other ways. As for your comment “like a team in a teleport lab miles orbitting earth”, again I have to bring up Ockham's Razor. He clearly has access to the Lambda Complex, which researches and develops… teleportation technology.

My only reason for bringing the whole issue up is that you claimed to be interested in evidence yet said things like...

the G-Man's race
The G-Man approaches Dr. Breen with the pure crystal that started the Resonance Cascade
The G-Man, posing as a G-Man

What evidence is there to back up these claims. Firstly, the G-Man’s race. Like I said before, he has not done anything that cannot be explained away by technology that exists in the HL universe. Second, his part in wilfully creating the Resonance Cascade. Like I said, his motive is what exactly? Thirdly, he pretends to be from the government. Why does he have to be pretending?

…he plays a far greater role in all of this than some guy out to make a buck or something else equally petty

I never said that I thought his motivation was purely money. I was using it as an example that people heavily motivated by money will do whatever it takes to get more.

The only significant evidence of the G-Man’s motives you get from HL1 is his conversation with the scientist that you mentioned and his conversation with Gordon at the end. From the first, we can deduce that he wanted the experiment to go ahead. Not necessarily that he wanted the Resonance Cascade to happen. Like I’ve said before, where’s the motive.

Then the statement “now the boarder world is in our control”. Like I said before, the Resonance Cascade was caused by Xen crystals, so if his motive was acquiring Xen, what part did the RC play if they already had access?

The whole point of your thread was to prove the combine did not control Xen. So, if Nihilanth acted alone in invading Earth, and the G-Man used Gordon to destroy him. Then the Combine invaded and once again the G-Man used Gordon to fight them off, where does some mysterious unknown G-Man race come into it? Who else would care about the fate of Earth except humans? If his powers are innate, and others share them, and the G-Man race cares so much about humans, why don’t they fight? Or teleport Gordon into Eli’s lab/Nova Prospekt/the Citadel.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Who's to say that Nihilanth didn't act in self-preservation by sending troops to Earth? You see no clear attempt for Xen to march to the nearest town - they pretty much keep to Black Mesa, to wreak vengeance on the Scientists who are nicking their crystals.

By my knowledge, G-Man is, and always will be, an undefined entity that Laidlaw put in just to confuse us. It's silly to try to work out what he is, when chances are, Laidlaw himself doesn't know.

So, everyone's wrong. Except me.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Eejit]

@Pai-Mei
Firstly, the G-Man’s race. Like I said before, he has not done anything that cannot be explained away by technology that exists in the HL universe.

Excuse me, but did you see what he did at the end of HL1 and 2?

Creating a portal from an apparently moving train to some random part of Xen in HL1, then somehow messing with time at the end of HL2.
I didn't see the BMRF scientists do any of that.

 

[PickledGecko]

By my knowledge, G-Man is, and always will be, an undefined entity that Laidlaw put in just to confuse us. It's silly to try to work out what he is, when chances are, Laidlaw himself doesn't know.

Exactly. I totaly agree.

I don’t think the gman ever had a purpose in Half Life other than to make you think there was something else going on. Maybe a plan to start the cascade or a plan to stop the Xen invasion by helping and keeping an eye on Gordon.

But that’s the key word - think .

The Half Life games are all about letting you think what you want to think. The gaps are left for you to fill in.

Hence the gman is who you want him to be.

You see, looking at one of the poll threads on this very same subject we see:

Gordon 6.30%
Gordon's dad 3.15%
Human 14.17%
Robot 2.36%
Vortigaunt 4.72%
Combine 1.57%
Other Alien 45.67%
Your mama 22.05%


Now if Valve goes with the most popular choice "other alien", then what? They make 45% happy. That’s still over half unhappy with their decision. Even then "other alien" is still vague, they risk losing more popularity by picking the wrong sort of alien.

Excuse me, but did you see what he did at the end of HL1 and 2?

Creating a portal from an apparently moving train to some random part of Xen in HL1, then somehow messing with time at the end of HL2.
I didn't see the BMRF scientists do any of that.

These “powers”, where in all of HL1/2 did you see him use any “powers”. The closest thing to this is the carriage at the end of HL1 and the end sequence of HL2. We’re talking about a universe where teleportation is a reality. There is not one piece of evidence to suggest that G-Mans “powers” could not be explained by technology developed in other sections of BMRF. Think about it, when Gordon and Alyx escape from Nova Prospekt they appear not only in another place (space) but also a week later (time) through technology.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

They could always go for the second most common choice:

Your mama 22.05%

The implications are mind-boggling.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Pai-Mei]

What evidence is there to back up these claims. Firstly, the G-Man’s race. Like I said before, he has not done anything that cannot be explained away by technology that exists in the HL universe. Second, his part in wilfully creating the Resonance Cascade. Like I said, his motive is what exactly? Thirdly, he pretends to be from the government. Why does he have to be pretending?

You make many good points. This thread was never meant to discuss the G-Man, but seeing as how I feel we have beaten the Combine-Xen theory to an utter pulp, and I do want a comprehensive theory on everything HL, we might as well start there.

The more you write, the more you make me realize what a fool I am for automatically simply assuming that the G-Man is from another race. It certainly fits into the universe and seems to be the popular theory on this board, but, as you suggested, we're looking at the evidence, not what fits.

Here are my reasons for assuming that the G-Man is not human:

1. He has a control over teleportation that the humans we have seen do not. And the humans we have seen (i.e. BMRF scientists) seem to have the most advanced technology on earth. If they haven't discovered it, no one has. Granted, the Lambda complex does know how to teleport, but it takes a lot of energy, a lot of machinery, theres a lot of special effects, and they don't seem to be very good at it. They can create "permanant" portals between two points. At best, open up a portal for a short time to another place using a lot of energy and a lot or preparation. My conclusion to this point, then, is that either a) the G-Man is hiding a LOT of technology from the rest of humanity (and the Combine), in which case he is still "separate" from the rest of humanity as some elite group of Men in Black, other organization, or mad scientist, or b) he is not human at all.

2. The Combine have no power over him. Either he has some huge super-secret BMRF lab at his disposal beneath the Pacific ocean or someplace where the combine would never find it, or he's not operating from Earth at all.

3. His interests do not seem to line up with humanity's. Were he really a human freedom fighter, I think he would be more pro-active in his attacks against the combine. I don't mean he should be chucking grenades at a Strider, but he seems to have the power to at least transport a bomb or something to Nova Prospect or the train and deal a serious blow to the Combine. (I am assuming that he could not transport to the Citadel while the Dark Energy reactor was running).

$. He controls the Vortessence ("We serve the same mystery" says the Vort right after watching the G-Man on the TV). This feat, at least, seems a little beyond that of a human.


Although, the more I think about it, the more likely it seems that he just a part of some huge "Men-in-Black" like organization with a LOT of resources at his disposal. I mean, there really is nothing to suggest that he is alien once you rule in the possibility that there might be some humans out there with just as much power as some of the alien networks.

We are moving away from the Combine - Xen - Earth topic into the realms of G-Man again.

True. And it seems many people still believe that the Combine controlled Xen... including you... oh well.

If someone can prove me wrong, I'd be quite happy to change my theories.

I don't think we can ever prove anything, but I thought I came pretty damn close to that by showing that there really is no evidence to support the combine on Xen... although it is easy to speculate.

 

[Asknoone]

Pffft. I will go with "the combine controlled Xen"

It's the most logical option, even with a barrage of idea's and facts to say otherwise.

 

[narc]

Another thing, imo, that suggests Gman isn't human is the way he talks, especially in hl2

'all the diff--er--rence in the world,' lol

And he makes lots of weird slurpy/throat clearing/gurgling noises in between words.

 

[Laivasse]

I just loaded up HL1 and went to the balcony at the Houndeye bit expecting to see a door texture on one of the walls in the room the G-Man walks into. You are right, it’s a dead end. Discounting him jumping off the balcony, which seems pretty silly, I will concede that he has means to travel in other ways. As for your comment “like a team in a teleport lab miles orbitting earth”, again I have to bring up Ockham's Razor. He clearly has access to the Lambda Complex, which researches and develops… teleportation technology.

As Pai Mei just implied, access to the Lambda lab is highly doubtful in HL2 yet we see him perform the same vanishing trick at least twice (dam, barn). As for Occam's Razor, I weild what may or not be Sherlock Holmes' "When you eliminate the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

It is impossible for GMan to accomplish what he does if unlesshe has access to things that no other human, if he is a human, has access to in HL2. Human's can teleport locally, but they have to create a big hoo-haw with labs, technology, research, and...GMan simply vanishes into thin air. The technology to accomplish such things is highly sought after by the Combine, so if we take it that he's just a standard government man, teleporting around casually with some hidden technique which is in fact not very mysterious at all, then why are the Combine not hunting him? Because there's something special about him, or he's allied with them somehow - which effectively means the same thing. If he's a human government man, he's apparently the only one we have left, apart from Breen. You'd think he'd attract more attention, or have a role more directly involved in events outside Gordon, in that case.

As for him not being human - again, it's been said that his loyalties don't seem tofully coincide with the rest of humanity. Why doesn't he pick up a gun and fight, or at least flinch when there're incredibly dangerous things happening nearby? Where is his self-preservation instinct, or his racial indignation at Mankind being exploited? It all hints at an unseen motive, outside those of humanity, or the Combine. But I think the main reason many people believe that GMan is non-human comes from Valve themselves. About as subtly as a jackhammer, every time they do a little character profile or snippet on GMan they belabour the fact that he seems "uncomfortable with human speech". Wow, Valve, I wonder what on Earth that is meant to signify, thanks for being characteristically ambiguous on that one (note: irony) When viewed in light of all the other idiosyncrasies of GMan's behaviour, for me I think his being non-human is as close to a fact as you can get about GMan.

The only significant evidence of the G-Man’s motives you get from HL1 is his conversation with the scientist that you mentioned and his conversation with Gordon at the end. From the first, we can deduce that he wanted the experiment to go ahead. Not necessarily that he wanted the Resonance Cascade to happen. Like I’ve said before, where’s the motive.

Regarding motive: for your convenience, I will quote my first post in this thread in case you may have skipped it.

I agree that I think G-Man was a force *for* causing the cascade rather than against it - btw, it's the first time I've ever read a transcript of that muffled convo, w/d - but I don't believe that, previous to the cascade, the Nihilanth was just happy to sit back and let scientists wander Xen. He sounds pretty pissed off about it to me; "Thieves, you are all thieves"

I think it was pissed off and looking to get back at those working in BM for their experiments and their "questionable ethics". One possible scenario is that G-Man orchestrated the experiment to give Nihilanth a dimensional window into earth, with a view to later toppling it and claiming Xen. As things progress, and things go badly for the Xenians, the Nihilanth realises it's been set up to attack earth, and someone's been set up to attack Xen and kill its leader. Hence "We are all slaves" and "He's not man..." - the Nihilanth clearly has an idea who's behind things.

It was a nice touch to work your theory around the progressing strength of the enemies Gordon faces. Perhaps you could say that the lambda satellite later strenghtened the Nihilanth's lever in the door and allowed it to port in stronger forces with more precision.

One thing I'm still not fully clear on is why the G-Man could have mobilised the troops. Obviously to eradicate witnesses (scientists) but why have them attack Xen forces if he set up the Xen incursion himself? One thing I've just thought of is that he intended the Earth troops to go on and topple the Nihilanth themselves....but it became increasingly evident that the Earth forces had bitten off more than they could chew. It also became clear to G-Man that a scientist he had previously paid little attention to - a certain Dr. Freeman - was in fact a human genocide machine. At this point Freeman stands a much better chance of nailing the Nihilanth than Special Ops do - and so comes the order for those troops to pull out and "Forget About Freeman".

The more I think about it, the more that theory is rock solid, and I'm sticking to it.

Same as always, I don't guess Gman's full motive, only that he wants Nihilanth dead for some reason. He may also want to ruin Earth, we don't know. However I think it would be useful to stop rubbishing theories just because they don't come with a signed letter of confession from the Gman. We are just trying to find interesting theories to speculate on, and persuade eachother with. To me, just because there is no solid proof of a motive, it doesn't mean that there wasn't one and that BM just happened by accident. For Gman just to push the experiment for no reason other than that he doesn't care about risk...that seems truly unbelievable to me. Everything he does, from the words he uses to Gordon, to the situations he places Gordon in, seems painstakingly calculated.

Your idea of a careless exec who pushes for results without care for consequences WOULD fit my idea of Breen in HL1 however.

 

[Laivasse]

the Nihilanth realises it's been set up to attack earth, and someone's been set up to attack Xen and kill its leader. Hence "We are all slaves" and "He's not man..."

In quoting that I've just relocated some of the strongest evidence for GMan being extraterrestrial. Nihilanth says "You are man, he's not man, for you he waits, for you..." Unlike many of the other quotes in the game, there is really only one way you can interpret this.

Unless you simply think the Nihilanth is simply saying that the GMan is evil... :|

 

[Laivasse]

Just thought I should use this quote to show that we are still, in a way, talking about the Combine and Xen.

The whole point of your thread was to prove the combine did not control Xen. So, if Nihilanth acted alone in invading Earth, and the G-Man used Gordon to destroy him. Then the Combine invaded and once again the G-Man used Gordon to fight them off, where does some mysterious unknown G-Man race come into it? Who else would care about the fate of Earth except humans? If his powers are innate, and others share them, and the G-Man race cares so much about humans, why don’t they fight? Or teleport Gordon into Eli’s lab/Nova Prospekt/the Citadel.

If we take it that the Combine never controlled Xen, we still need to qualify GMan's role and find theories for his existence that fit in.

I just thought a post like this might help stop people from saying "Christ, not another who-is-GMan thread..." and sodding off elsewhere...

 

[PickledGecko]

I guess I have to take responsibility for putting the emphases of this thread on the G-Man, but it bugs me when people talk about him with conviction and claim their speculation as fact.

“If someone can prove me wrong, I'd be quite happy to change my theories.” Was that me? If it was, I was only referring to the G-Man stuff. I agreed with pretty much everything else.

All the arguments I made in this thread were just me playing devils advocate. I wanted you to question why you believed those things about the G-Mans part in the story. Your points 1-4 (Pai-Mei) do make it sound like there is more to him that just some suit who worked in a research facility, also the way he treats Gordon as property, not very humane. All I wanted you to realise was that when you talk about evidence, it takes more than a little spooky behaviour to start inventing unseen races of aliens. Also, it takes more than eagerness to start the experiment to make the Resonance Cascade intentional, especially when you don’t have a motive for him doing so.

Ultimately, any speculation into the G-Man is only ever going to be speculation and it hurts your otherwise convincing theory.

Laivasse, you say his motive is Nihilanth’s death. But like I’ve said before, the crystals that cause the Resonance Cascade come from Xen, therefore, the ability to get to Xen already exists. Also, you mention many aspects that lead you to believe the G-Man is not human. But why jump to the conclusion that he is some unknown alien race. His natural ability to teleport suggests, if he is an alien, he is from Xen. That would also give him a motive to kill Nihilanth. Power over Xen, freedom for his Vortigaunt “brothers”. Then his support of the resistance in HL2 could be him returning the favour.

Oh hell, he could be all in Gordon’s imagination. The conversation with the scientist in HL1 could be Gordon slipping into a paranoid delusion. They are talking about the experiment he’s taking part in possibly going wrong. It could be his own reservations about his safety coming from his subconscious.

 

[Laivasse]

Laivasse, you say his motive is Nihilanth’s death. But like I’ve said before, the crystals that cause the Resonance Cascade come from Xen, therefore, the ability to get to Xen already exists.

Certainly, but as it was, there was no impetus to attack Xen. Nor was it very easy to get there - look at all the trouble Gordon has to go through. It looks likely that a good excuse to attack Xen would be to have them attack us - drawing forces over and dispatching them here so that it would make it easier to dispatch Nihilanth with only a small force on Xen. Again like I said there's also the possibility that GMan wanted to ruin Earth. Going in gung-ho with all guns blazing doesn't seem like the GMan'sstyle, just as how he never picks up a gun himself - with the way he manipulates Gordon it's clear he gets other people to achieve his own goals, while making them think they are their own. I feel a similar mechanism at work in BM.

It's also easier to make the decision to defend your own territory than it is to attack someone else's. Could be he couldn't have mobilised the troops if their stated purpose was "planetary invasion".

Also, you mention many aspects that lead you to believe the G-Man is not human. But why jump to the conclusion that he is some unknown alien race. His natural ability to teleport suggests, if he is an alien, he is from Xen. That would also give him a motive to kill Nihilanth. Power over Xen, freedom for his Vortigaunt “brothers”. Then his support of the resistance in HL2 could be him returning the favour.

That's a good point but as you demonstrated, it leads to a view of GMan that I find altogether too benevolent. Don't you think he's more of a bastard than that?

 

[Jandor]

You make many good points. This thread was never meant to discuss the G-Man, but seeing as how I feel we have beaten the Combine-Xen theory to an utter pulp, and I do want a comprehensive theory on everything HL, we might as well start there.

I think your beaten to an utter pulp comment is a bit far over the top. I don't think you've said anything to which someone else hasn't said, "oh but wait, that can be explained by such and such."

Ok, so the same can be said the other way round, but I dont recall any 'Pro-Combine on Xen theorists' claiming to have beat the opposition, at least nowhere near as blatantly as that. :farmer:

 

[Pai-Mei]

Ok, so the same can be said the other way round, but I dont recall any 'Pro-Combine on Xen theorists' claiming to have beat the opposition, at least nowhere near as blatantly as that.

I've been flamed by someone claiming that it was "in the manual" that the Combine controlled Xen, and that I should go "play the game" because my argument was so poor... essentially saying that my argument was "pulp."

Basically, there is no doubt in my mind that the Combine were not on Xen. All of the "evidence" that anyone has ever cared to offer for such a point is that the Nihilanth appears to be enslaved and surgically enhanced. So, of course, it must have been the Combine who did it to him .

I will admit, at first glance, it appears that the Combine took over Xen. They are the clear "bad guys" in the game and they like to enslave/assimilate races. The fact that they are merely in the same game as a race that is enslaved is enough to make them the guys who did it... most games aren't complex enough to offer any real twists or multiple "bad guys."

Yet, upon closer inspection, and the fact that this is HL, not Duke Nukem, there is no real reason to believe that the Combine did, in fact, control Nihilanth, other than the fact that he was controlled. They took nothing from Xen, left nothing on Xen, and do not even know how to utilize Xen. You admitted this yourself, remember that glorious post when you inadvertantly turned to my side?

You said things like the Combine weren't in full control of Nihilanth...

Nihilanth made the decisions, he could have been overruled, but he wasn't. Nihilanth decided to send his troops through to Earth because Earths experiments where pissing him off

...that Xen had no resouces to offer...

Xen may not actually possess large amounts of metal.

...and that the Combine didn't use Xen to teleport.

I say that the Nihilanth and Xen in general NEVER knew how to [teleport] outside of Xen.

I guess you're right. I didn't beat your argument into a pulp... you did.

So, once again, I ask you, and answer without contradicting anything that you have already said... what exactly were the Combine getting out of controlling Xen?

Why even believe that they were even controlling Xen at all after everything that you said?

 

[FireCrack]

Damn, this thread got away from me.

 

[PickledGecko]

To clarify

Events
HL1
1. Black Mesa scientists go to Xen and take crystals for the anomalous materials labs and living things for the Questionable Ethics level of the game
2. The experiment causes the Resonance Cascade
3. Nihilanth uses the Resonance Cascade to invade the invaders
4. Gordon fights his way through Black Mesa, completing objectives on his way (e.g. launching the satellite)
5. Eventually Gordon reaches the scientists at Lambda who have been attempting to stop the cascade, which is being held open by Nihilanth. Gordon is told someone must go to Xen and kill him
6. Gordon fights through Xen, reaches Nihilanth and kills him

HL2
1. The Combine invade, leaving the world as it is at the start of HL2
2. Gordon is met by Barney, who instructs him to go to Kleiner’s lab; Kleiner says to go to Eli’s
3. Combine attack Eli’s, Gordon runs away and meets up with some Resistance
4. Gordon is sent to Nova Prospekt, meets Alyx who is also there to save Eli
5. Gordon helps the Resistance as they fight in the streets
6. Gordon goes into the Citadel to save Alyx
7. Gordon pursues Breen and destroys the teleportation thingy

My participation in this thread started when I noticed Pai-Mei put great emphasis on the G-Mans part in the whole story. My point is that the whole HL1/2 story can be explained in a way that limits his involvement.

Motivation
HL1
1. Its what scientists do, have done for years and will continue to do as long a scientists exist
2. Gordon’s just doing his job
3. To stop the incursions
4. To save his life, and the lives of his colleagues
5. Same as 4
6. Same as 4

HL2
1. It’s what they do, how they acquire resources
2. So Gordon can help with teleportation research
3. Save his life
4. Eli is important to the resistance
5. To save his life and help humanity
6. They’ve been through a lot together, he’s known her since she was a girl, he’s good friends with Eli and hell, he probably wants to bone her
7. Revenge

So where does the G-Man fit in?

1. He pushes for the experiment to go ahead which in turn causes the Resonance Cascade
2. He claims victory over Xen and takes control of Gordon
3. He puts Gordon on the train at the start of HL2
4. He takes Gordon back after he has done his job

Now, I can understand jumping to the conclusion that 1. somehow leads to 2., I know I did the first time round. But, it really doesn’t. Or at least the game has yet to show us a real connection.

As for 3. and 4., well, yes it does seem like the G-Man is, through Gordon, intervening on behalf of Earth, but, like Breen says, Gordon’s contract is available to anyone. If Gordon was anyone’s puppet in HL2, he was Alyx’s, that’s who kept telling him where to go and what to do.

But the one thing that is glaringly conspicuous from its absence is any evidence of the G-Man intervening in any other way to the unfolding of either story. As for his cameo appearances throughout the game, do you ever see him do anything? No. So, how can you claim to know what parts he plays in the story and what his motives are. As far as I’m concerned, apart from the above 4 points, the G-Man is an irrelevance until we see him do something.

 

[narc]

I think we should kidnapp Marc Laidlaw, tie him to a chair, and burn his toes with a lighter until he tells us all the full story :naughty:

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Laidlaw probably won't ever define G-Man, because, as soon as he does, there's no more mystery in the game.

Oh, as a real life comparison for why the Combine and Xen shouldn't be lumped into the same category:

In the Middle Ages, Europe would fight amoungst itself. Take, for example, Poland. During the middle ages, everyone had a pop at Poland - it's a pretty nice bit of land. Then the Mongols came along, and took a load of it over.

Now, did the Mongols coordinate all the other attacks by Poland's neighbours? Did the Mongols control them?

Now, think - did the Combine control Xen? Unlikely.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Jandor]

I've been flamed by someone claiming that it was "in the manual" that the Combine controlled Xen, and that I should go "play the game" because my

argument was so poor... essentially saying that my argument was "pulp."

well, those people are morons

Basically, there is no doubt in my mind that the Combine were not on Xen. All of the "evidence" that anyone has ever cared to offer for such a point is that the Nihilanth appears to be enslaved and surgically enhanced. So, of course, it must have been the Combine who did it to him .

The Vortigaunts also appear to enslaved.

I will admit, at first glance, it appears that the Combine took over Xen. They are the clear "bad guys" in the game and they like to enslave/assimilate races. The fact that they are merely in the same game as a race that is enslaved is enough to make them the guys who did it... most games aren't complex enough to offer any real twists or multiple "bad guys."

So what makes you think HL is? despite everyone heaping praise upon the HL2 story, I think it leaves far to much open to speculation, which while it is fun to debate the whens/whys and whos it does eventually get boring/frustrating.

Yet, upon closer inspection, and the fact that this is HL, not Duke Nukem, there is no real reason to believe that the Combine did, in fact, control Nihilanth, other than the fact that he was controlled. They took nothing from Xen, left nothing on Xen, and do not even know how to utilize Xen. You admitted this yourself, remember that glorious post when you inadvertantly turned to my side?

You said things like the Combine weren't in full control of Nihilanth...

Originally Posted by Jandor
Nihilanth made the decisions, he could have been overruled, but he wasn't. Nihilanth decided to send his troops through to Earth because Earths experiments where pissing him off

He was the administrator, Like Breen to Earth, the Combine are still in control of Earth, however it is easier to use Breen than a slug to do it.
Likewise it is easier to use Nihilanth and his abilities than a slug.

...that Xen had no resouces to offer...

Originally Posted by Jandor
Xen may not actually possess large amounts of metal.

Metal is not the only resource in the Universe, obviously Xen has resources because you see them being mined (those are not thumpers), you also know humans take crystals.

...and that the Combine didn't use Xen to teleport.

Originally Posted by Jandor
I say that the Nihilanth and Xen in general NEVER knew how to [teleport] outside of Xen.

Is it so hard to believe? You say yourself that Xen is mainly organic, in my opinion the Xenians never progressed there technology past agriculture. They 'grow' everything they need, even the mining equipement seems to have been grown. When the Combine arrived they saw that some species knew how to teleport around Xen, they also saw that there technology was all organic. The combine do not know how to adapt this technology because the Xenians do not know how it works. Let me give you an analogy, a spaceship lands in your back garden, they show you what appears to be a yellow stone. They say that this stone powers there 'faster than light engine' in the spaceship, when you ask how they make these yellow stones they say "We dont, were born with them (insert possible religious mumbo-jumbo)'.
you try to replicate the yellow stone but it fails because it is just a yellow stone, theres is different. without any idea of how the stone works you can't replicate the stone. Also Combine teleportation technology is vastly different to Earth's (and therefore Xens) way of doing it, they use tunneling teleportation, imagine a circle, they can teleport from circle to another but cannot go through the circle, this is the way I presume they have always done it. They have not thought about using Xen and swinging around it because it goes against the very principles of there current technology. However they can use the natural abilities that the Xen sentients have on Xen, for the purpose of controlling Xen.

I guess you're right. I didn't beat your argument into a pulp... you did. So, once again, I ask you, and answer without contradicting anything that you have already said... what exactly were the Combine getting out of controlling Xen?

They have got Xen, they have got Xens technology (which does not include teleportation) and they have Xen's resources, the Combine have continued using some of the technology that they have from Xen, for instances they still use slave collars on Vortigaunts, they also continue with the principles of growing organic weapons, (i.e, the headcrabs) and they still use Xen creatures (i.e the Vortigaunts and the Gonarch, I would find it very odd for the Combine Overwatch to go out catching headcrabs in nets .) Also, it is entirely feasible the Combine were not interested in the Xenians teleportation as they have not used it outside of Xen, but where interested in whatever it was that keeps the huge islands of rock floating in the air, that in itself would be pretty useful.

Why even believe that they were even controlling Xen at all after everything that you said?

Because it is the commonly accepted theory, it makes sense, and you concede youself it fits the storyline.


also, I believe a page or so back, you asked me why the Combine do not use Xen weapon's on Earth, well, why would they, theres a perfectly reasonable amount of weapons already on Earth, designed to be used by the Earth sentients for the purpose of controlling the natives of Earth. why import Xen weapons, seems counter productive.

EDIT: Also, I believe someone said why are there no Gargs or Grunts, or any Xen forces on Earth, Because after you killed Nihilanth and the portal storms came into play you temporarily buggered things up on Xen, the Vortigaunts started fleeing, the Administrator is dead. etc. So they invaded Earth using there Synth forces, now Earth and possibly Xen are back under control why import Xen forces? They already have a large Synth force there and a growing Human force, it seems, again, counter-productive.

That is why you dont see Xen forces or Xen weapons on Earth.

 

[ríomhaire]

Maybe G-man is an asimilated human. Like the Gua-oold(spelling???) from Stargate SG1

 

[Eejit]

Also Combine teleportation technology is vastly different to Earth's (and therefore Xens) way of doing it, they use tunneling teleportation, imagine a circle, they can teleport from circle to another but cannot go through the circle, this is the way I presume they have always done it. They have not thought about using Xen and swinging around it because it goes against the very principles of there current technology.

That's ridiculous, they wouldn't fail to use Xen teleportation technology if they had access to it simply because it's different from their current methods. Xen teleportation is FAR to useful to be ignored.
Hell, that's what Breen wanted from Eli. Information on how to teleport locally. He also seemed to think that his Combine superiors would value it quite highly...

 

[Jandor]

That's ridiculous, they wouldn't fail to use Xen teleportation technology if they had access to it simply because it's different from their current methods. Xen teleportation is FAR to useful to be ignored.
Hell, that's what Breen wanted from Eli. Information on how to teleport locally. He also seemed to think that his Combine superiors would value it quite highly...

I'm saying they didn't have access to it, the Xenians do not know how to do it. It is natural to them in the same way that walking is to me and you. They could cut open some Xen species but would they know what they were looking for?
I'm saying the Combine failed to figure it out. You have no idea how long they were on Xen, it might not have been long enough and I'm not going to start speculating about the length of there stay.

However, It's been 10 years since Black Mesa, Breen must have been mentioning the local teleportation technology to his superiors for a while, and obviously the surviving Black Mesa team kept working on it. However despite this, the Combine STILL do not have it.

 

[Pai-Mei]

you also know humans take crystals.

For the purpose of TELEPORTING, which you know Combine cannot do.

the Combine have continued using some of the technology that they have from Xen, for instances they still use slave collars on Vortigaunts, they also continue with the principles of growing organic weapons, (i.e, the headcrabs)

If the Combine controlled Xen... wouldn't THEY be the ones who developed the collars? Besides, the collars are different from HL1 and HL2 suggesting that the combine made new Vort collars. So either they're using their own technology, or they're using their own technology.

I hardly qualify having a Headcrab farm as "assimilating Xen technology..." Besides, pretty sure that they are much harder to exterminate and easy to cultivate.

Lets look at some actual examples of Xen technology... they can teleport. The combine cannot teleport. The Xenians can manipulate energy into electricity and photons, effectively utilizing it as a weapon or energy source. The Combine cannot do this, they rely on conventional weapons and reactors. Xen has rejuvination cells that effectively and infinitly heal anyone within them. The Combine relys on medkits and limited-use medical stations.

I'm pretty sure that the Xenian knew how to build teleports since they had permanent teleports. You travelled through them many times on Xen... remember when you released the bugs and stuff in Interloper? Remember the warp at the very top of the Xen factory that takes you to Nihilanth's portal? It wasn't some innate ability that they were born with... they were definitly controlling locallized teleportation, at LEAST through Xen.

Likewise it is easier to use Nihilanth and his abilities than a slug.

Still, though, it means that you admit that the Nihilanth could be acting without acting Combine influence at all. Adding the Combine into the Xen equation is an unnecessary complication that has no evidence other than the fact that it wraps everyone up into one neat bad guy.

Because it is the commonly accepted theory,

It was also the commonly accepted theory that Earth was the center of the universe about 1000 years ago... doesn't make it right.

...and you concede youself it fits the storyline.

Well, yes. I could make a theory about Tofu Hot Dogs really being in charge that also technically fits into the storyline as well.

My point is that there is no real reason to believe that the Combine ever controlled Xen. Granted, it fits if you make a lot of concessions (i.e. the Combine not having any Xen technology), but why add that extra bit of complication when theres no real evidence supporting it except?

Basically, you've been defending your argument the whole entire time, making up loops and alternative ways to make it fit, yet offer no reason for us to believe it over anything else. It'd be like you attacking my Tofu hot dog theory saying that we never see any in game, and me remarking that they are all invisible. Well, yes, that COULD fit, but theres no reason to believe it. Give us some evidence.

-Nihilanth and the Vorts were enslaved in HL1. Who enslaved them?

I believe it was the Alien Controllers.
Evidence: -They are the sentients on Xen without shackels.
-The Nihilanth is made somewhat in their image.
-They are the most powerful "sentient" beings on Xen as we don't see them until right before we get to Xen.

You believe it was the Combine:
Evidence: Uhm... well... they're the main bad guy in the sequel which takes place 15 years after HL1.

All other evidence is against it, from their lack of Xen troops to their lack of presence on Xen to their lack of Xen technology to their lack of knowledge of Xen.

 

[ríomhaire]

For the purpose of TELEPORTING, which you know Combine cannot do.

Yes and Breen was going to the top of the citadel for the view. And it is also why Breen said "We'll see how you like it on the other end of a Combine protal."

I think people give Xen and especially the crystals too much credit. Maybe crystals aren't needed foe human teleports. Maybe they are a power source. And I think Xen is not very special. It provides local teleport as it is Earth's boarder world. All worlds probably have boarder worlds that can be used for local teleporting.

I'm pretty sure that the Xenian knew how to build teleports since they had permanent teleports.

They didn't build any teleporters, the controlers and Nihilanth have natural teleporting powers.

My point is that there is no real reason to believe that the Combine ever controlled Xen.

My point is that there is no real reason to believe that the Combine didn't control Xen.

 

[Pai-Mei]

Yes and Breen was going to the top of the citadel for the view. And it is also why Breen said "We'll see how you like it on the other end of a Combine protal."

Bah. You got me.

But you know what i meant...

They didn't build any teleporters, the controlers and Nihilanth have natural teleporting powers.

And all of those little rocks with the energy going through them that teleport you were just Xen phone booths that let the Controllers know where you are and you tell them where you want to go, and they send you there, right?

My point is that there is no real reason to believe that the Combine didn't control Xen.

Yeah, you know, other than the doznes of points we brought up against it.

 

[Jandor]

If the Combine controlled Xen... wouldn't THEY be the ones who developed the collars? Besides, the collars are different from HL1 and HL2 suggesting that the combine made new Vort collars. So either they're using their own technology, or they're using their own technology.

Things change. Fashions change, technologys changes, everything changes, except for slave collars? I doubt it. Hell, by that argument the Vortigaunts are different because in HL1 they were blockier and there skin looked different. Its simply a change made because graphics are better nowadays.

Lets look at some actual examples of Xen technology... they can teleport. The combine cannot teleport. The Xenians can manipulate energy into electricity and photons, effectively utilizing it as a weapon or energy source. The Combine cannot do this, they rely on conventional weapons and reactors. Xen has rejuvination cells that effectively and infinitly heal anyone within them. The Combine relys on medkits and limited-use medical stations.

on the weaponry point, how is the Striders cannon conventional? it sure looks like an energy weapon to me. How is the dark energy reactor with the dark energy balls flying about conventional? why use Vorts as an energy source when you have Dark Energy reactors? why fill containers full of rejuvination cells and teleport them to Earth when you can use a medkit? (well, ok, I can see the advantages )

I'm pretty sure that the Xenian knew how to build teleports since they had permanent teleports. You travelled through them many times on Xen... remember when you released the bugs and stuff in Interloper? Remember the warp at the very top of the Xen factory that takes you to Nihilanth's portal? It wasn't some innate ability that they were born with... they were definitly controlling locallized teleportation, at LEAST through Xen.

No, I dont remember releasing the bugs and stuff in Interloper, I sold my copy of HL over two years ago, I can't find it anywhere now I want it again . The Crystals as said though appear to have the ability to increase a teleporters power, at least human teleporters, It is very concievable that the Xenians use them in this way, that dosn't change that it is an innate ability for them.

Still, though, it means that you admit that the Nihilanth could be acting without acting Combine influence at all. Adding the Combine into the Xen equation is an unnecessary complication that has no evidence other than the fact that it wraps everyone up into one neat bad guy.

It explains how the Combine know that Earth is nearby. I doubt the Combine just go setting random co-ordinates into there teleporters and see where they end up. How the hell did they find Earth if it wasn't through Xen?

It was also the commonly accepted theory that Earth was the center of the universe about 1000 years ago... doesn't make it right.

If I'm wrong it dosn't neccersarilly mean your right you know .

Basically, you've been defending your argument the whole entire time, making up loops and alternative ways to make it fit, yet offer no reason for us to believe it over anything else. It'd be like you attacking my Tofu hot dog theory saying that we never see any in game, and me remarking that they are all invisible. Well, yes, that COULD fit, but theres no reason to believe it. Give us some evidence.

Give me some Evidence. Your the one trying to convince people. I could leave right now and most people would still carry on believing the Xen-Combine theory.

I believe it was the Alien Controllers.
Evidence:
-They are the sentients on Xen without shackels.
-The Nihilanth is made somewhat in their image.
-They are the most powerful "sentient" beings on Xen as we don't see them until right before we get to Xen.

You believe it was the Combine:
Evidence: Uhm... well... they're the main bad guy in the sequel which takes place 15 years after HL1.

- The Overwatch have no visible shackles either.
- and? what the hell does that show? that the Combine didn't make him an elephant instead?
- We don't see Nihilanth right up and till the very End.


- The Nihilanths engineering looks Combine in origin.
- The Combine actually finding Earth at all.
- The Nihilanths end dialogue.
- The Use of Slave Collars on Vorts, same as on Xen.
- The Continued use of a small variety of Bio-Weapons.

All other evidence is against it, from their lack of Xen troops to their lack of presence on Xen to their lack of Xen technology to their lack of knowledge of Xen.

They can't use Xen troops as you screwed Xen over for them, assuming they've fixed it now, why use them once Earth has been conquered and you already have other troops here?
The Combine also have a lack of knowledge about Earth, after spending ten years here they have still to learn the human teleportation technology. Let's face it, when it comes to taking technology from conquered races, unless you hand it on a platter complete schematics and working prototypes, they suck.

 

[Pai-Mei]

Hell, by that argument the Vortigaunts are different because in HL1 they were blockier and there skin looked different. Its simply a change made because graphics are better nowadays.

So you're telling me that Valve upgraded the slave collars to be a different color, look completely different, have 5 shackels instead of 3, and we are supposed to just assume that these are the same slave collars? Not that it makes any difference, my original point was that in your universe, the Combine developed slave collars for the Vorts which was refuting your statement that they took the collar technology from Xen.

on the weaponry point, how is the Striders cannon conventional? it sure looks like an energy weapon to me. How is the dark energy reactor with the dark energy balls flying about conventional?

By convnetional weapons I simply meant anything not Xen weaponry... which neither of those are. In fact, since the Combine love using a diverse range of weapons, from Balls to distortion cannons to Disintegrating beams... why aren't they using any of the technology that you claim they assimilated from Xen.

why use Vorts as an energy source when you have Dark Energy reactors?

Fair enough.

If I'm wrong it dosn't neccersarilly mean your right you know...

Actually, it does. Either the Combine controlled Xen or they didn't. I suppose that you could make the case that someone ELSE controlled Xen, some race that we have yet to see, but that point would be impossible to speculate.

Give me some Evidence. Your the one trying to convince people. I could leave right now and most people would still carry on believing the Xen-Combine theory.

Acutally, I seem to have quite a few people supporting my argument now. They apparently saw my pages and pages of evidence.

The Overwatch have no visible shackles either.

Yeah? What are all of those implants in their head? That huge, dominating suit that they wear that cannot be taken off? A built in Slurpy Machine? I'd wager that they cannot disobey the Combine.

and? what the hell does that show? that the Combine didn't make him an elephant instead?

Why make give him that 3rd arm? Why make him visually look like a Controller? He obviously doesn't need to rely on visual influence anymore...

The Use of Slave Collars on Vorts, same as on Xen.

Already spoke on that one...

The Continued use of a small variety of Bio-Weapons.

Uhm... what bio-energy weapons? I don't recall any of their weapons being biological at all, unless you count headcrabs. The overwatch 'Ball' sure isn't organic... the gun is a machine. And the Strider and Gunship cannons are both obviously coming from mechanical means... the muzzle, the wires, the artificial'ness.

The Combine also have a lack of knowledge about Earth, after spending ten years here they have still to learn the human teleportation technology. Let's face it, when it comes to taking technology from conquered races, unless you hand it on a platter complete schematics and working prototypes, they suck.

Lets face it, the humans did NOT teleport gracefully... we barely knew how to do it. And that was one small group of scientists whose lab was probably destroyed, most of whom died, only some of whom escaped. The technology was lost... that's why it took Kleiner and Eli so long to create a working teleport.

And in every other aspect, the Combine DID take our technology and learn it very quickly. They made a really decent helicopter (NOT gunship), which looks very close to utilizing earth technology. They seem to have taken, mastered, and improved our gas mask technology, weapon technology, life support systems, rockets, trains, photo equipment, and cars/tanks.

The Combine actually finding Earth at all.

I'm sure that the portal storms and/or resonance cascade and/or death of Nihilanth set off shockwaves throughout the other dimensions. There was a LOT of interdimensional energy getting flung around, the Combine could have very easilly detected all of this , saw us, and then attacked. Theres no reason to believe that they needed to be in constanct connection with Xen to know about Humanity, especially since they probably arrived well after the death of Nihilanth (Waited until after everyone had fled into the cities.)

 

[Angry Lawyer]

And to extrapolate on that last point...

If it is so hard for the Combine to find Earth, and they used Xen to get here... How did they find Xen?

-Angry Lawyer

 

[ríomhaire]

Why make give him that 3rd arm? Why make him visually look like a Controller? He obviously doesn't need to rely on visual influence anymore...

As I have said, the Combine didn't make Nihilanth, they asimilated him.

 

[Sam2k]

And to extrapolate on that last point...

If it is so hard for the Combine to find Earth, and they used Xen to get here... How did they find Xen?

-Angry Lawyer

Maybe Nihilanth's death caused portals to open in the Combine's universe?

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Then they wouldn't have bothered using their tunnelling technology to get here. They'd have popped through the portal.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Pai-Mei]

Maybe Nihilanth's death caused portals to open in the Combine's universe?

Perhaps it did... which would mean the Combine didn't have protals in their universe to Xen prior to that, meaning that the Combine were not in control of Xen. Thank you, another convert.

 

[Jandor]

So you're telling me that Valve upgraded the slave collars to be a different color, look completely different, have 5 shackels instead of 3, and we are supposed to just assume that these are the same slave collars?

Yes.

By convnetional weapons I simply meant anything not Xen weaponry... which neither of those are. In fact, since the Combine love using a diverse range of weapons, from Balls to distortion cannons to Disintegrating beams... why aren't they using any of the technology that you claim they assimilated from Xen.

Why would they?

Actually, it does. Either the Combine controlled Xen or they didn't. I suppose that you could make the case that someone ELSE controlled Xen, some race that we have yet to see, but that point would be impossible to speculate.

It would, but you could all the same.

Acutally, I seem to have quite a few people supporting my argument now. They apparently saw my pages and pages of evidence.

I havn't seen anyone change there mind. Also I havn't seen anything other than speculation, speculation isn't evidence. If you ask me, everyone is just trying to out-speculate each other.

Yeah? What are all of those implants in their head? That huge, dominating suit that they wear that cannot be taken off? A built in Slurpy Machine? I'd wager that they cannot disobey the Combine.

What implants in there head? What makes you think they can't take there suit off? How the hell do they piss? how do they eat? how would they sleep in that? There humans in a suit, but still only human.

Why make give him that 3rd arm? Why make him visually look like a Controller? He obviously doesn't need to rely on visual influence anymore...

I believe it was the Alien Controllers.
Evidence:
<snip>
-The Nihilanth is made somewhat in their image.
<snip>

....

And in every other aspect, the Combine DID take our technology and learn it very quickly. They made a really decent helicopter (NOT gunship), which looks very close to utilizing earth technology. They seem to have taken, mastered, and improved our gas mask technology, weapon technology, life support systems, rockets, trains, photo equipment, and cars/tanks.

and now Gordon has blown up Breen and the main Citadel and allowed the rebellion to really get going, how the hell are they going to get them off-world.

I'm sure that the portal storms and/or resonance cascade and/or death of Nihilanth set off shockwaves throughout the other dimensions. There was a LOT of interdimensional energy getting flung around.

Your sure that the Portal Storms sent out lots of "interdimensional energy" why? what the hell is "interdimensional energy" anyway? I think you just made "interdimensional energy" up.

the Combine could have very easilly detected all of this , saw us, and then attacked. Theres no reason to believe that they needed to be in constanct connection with Xen to know about Humanity

Theres no reason to believe they found us because of "interdimensional energy".

especially since they probably arrived well after the death of Nihilanth (Waited until after everyone had fled into the cities.)

Wow, The Combine seem to have thought of a strategy that would make conquest easier. That's really hard to believe .

And to extrapolate on that last point...

If it is so hard for the Combine to find Earth, and they used Xen to get here... How did they find Xen?

-Angry Lawyer

Imagine stepping stones, a man comes to the river and wants to cross, he first steps onto the first stone (Combine world) then jumps onto the next (lets say...Synth world) then onto the next (Xen) then jumps across to the other side of the River, now he's crossed he's quite happy and begins to eat a sandwich that he has, however mid-sandwich someone comes along and steals the cheese out of the middle. The man is unhappy with this and chases the thief, the thief goes to another river and jumps across (Earth). The man, has now discovered Earth.

Now, that analogy is incredibly simplistic, but I think it states what I mean, and it mentions sandwiches, damn I'm hungry .


EDIT:

Perhaps it did... which would mean the Combine didn't have protals in their universe to Xen prior to that, meaning that the Combine were not in control of Xen. Thank you, another convert.

Maybe he means portals from the Combine world straight to Earth. That dosn't mean they didn't control Xen, don't take things out of context.

 

[narc]

So you're telling me that Valve upgraded the slave collars to be a different color, look completely different, have 5 shackels instead of 3, and we are supposed to just assume that these are the same slave collars?

The reason for the Vorts collars being different should be bloody obvious. The collars were designed to be used in conjunction with the Nihilanth. He died. :thumbs: The collars were thus useless. So recaptured vorts had new collars put on because they are controlled using a different technique. Valve would have looked stupid and inconsistent if they'd kept them same.

 

[Jintor]

Summerise your theories/counter theories, please. Easier to understand then.

 

[FireCrack]

My theory

The combine werent in direct control of xen but did know about it and installed/made an allience with ninilaith to keep the xenians in order so they could pass through unhampered.