Day 6: Spy Unlock - The Ambassador

[barbarbarbarbar]

Meh , anyway , ill wait for a week for the Spy/Sniper craze to wear off.Then ill start playing.The scout update ******ry made me FFFFUUU-

 

[DoctorWeeTodd]

I was hoping for something more useful like a blank firing gun.

However that is a beautiful model.

The cigarette in his hand looks different.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

It certainly is different, and was different in the Cloak & Dagger update too. Not sure what to expect from the new disguise kit.

 

[Darkside55]

GOD DAMN IT

You could've really had it, Valve. You started by bringing back feign death, which was the master spy's boon. The next day you drop Meet the Spy, and it was good. You had every chance to keep the ball rolling, bringing out amazing spy stuff...then you do this.

Why do you do this, Valve? For a game that's supposed to be based on teamwork and well-defined roles, it seems as though you really don't give a shit about that at all. It's like you don't really know what the spy does, or how he's supposed to be played, or how you could make him further credit to team.

Let me sum up what a spy does: disruption. A good spy disrupts the enemy. Spy is the monkey wrench in the enemy's gears that mucks up all their well-laid plans. Spy's the guy who sneaks his way in, takes out a sentry here, stabs a guard there, cloaks in a corner and gets on the mic and reports what the enemy is doing. That's the spy.

The spy is not Samuel L. Jackson in The Long Kiss Goodnight, storming into enemy territory with a big fuckin' revolver. The spy isn't "Lol my gun is hueg and keel u in one boolet." The spy is not a substitute sniper, the spy is not a long-range damage dealer, the spy is not supposed to be a six-shot-superhero AND YOU ARE ENCOURAGING NEWB PLAY WITH THESE STUPID FRIGGIN' UNLOCKS! Do you not even care what the roles of the classes are anymore? Do you not care about teaching players to support their team in beneficial ways?

God damn it you gave him a big fucking revolver that does heavy damage and has a long cooldown. What kind of message are you sending here? "This is the spy. Look at him be stealthy and rely on gadgetry and close-quarters combat to support his team. HERE HAVE A BIG GUN THAT WILL MAKE LOUD NOISES, PUT YOU IN HARM'S WAY, AND ENCOURAGES IDIOTS TO EQUIP IT, RUN INTO BASE, AND START UNLOADING, ALERTING EVERYONE TO YOUR PRESENCE. Please enjoy the spy class."

God damn you, Valve. Spy was the class of the gentleman long before you gave him slightly effeminate mannerisms, a French accent, and stuck a cigarette in his mouth. And what've you done? What've you done? You've given in to the casual side and given him a big, damage-dealing weapon. A weapon to appease the masses and go against what it truly meant to be a spy.





The tranquilizer gun...was the only thing that would have worked. I said it time and again. Amidst everyone else saying they wanted a gun like this, or a silenced pistol, or some other bullshit...no one listened. No one. Valve least of all. Maybe I should have sent them an e-mail or something. Maybe I should've made a thread somewhere they might've seen it better, like the Steam forums. I don't know. It's too late now.

You people who don't even know what it was like to be spy before...to stab under the moonlight of Cydonia...to feign death on the lights of Canalzone...to flit from shadow to shadow in Totalwar...to watch a man drown in the underwater tunnels of 2fort as he struggled against the poison in his veins, the lethargy slowing his movements as the water slowly filled his lungs and deprived his brain of oxygen, causing him to die quietly and never having reached your base, or return to his own...are you people happy now? He's got a big fucking revolver instead of the silent, usually-nonlethal tranquilizer gun he should have.

Instead of slowing enemies down so that he can escape, spies will now attempt to turn and fight, hoping that their superbullets will kill their pursuers. Instead of being in a state of constant stealth, they'll discharge a shot from a loud, high-damage revolver if they think they might be able to score a kill. Instead of serving the team by coordinating an offensive attack whereby the spy waits, offense rushes in, takes briefcase, spy decloaks and slows enemy defense with the tranq gun, he's going to be "DUHR HUHR AMBASSADOR." Instead of slowing enemy offense while playing defensive spy, same thing.

And instead of showing a measure of finesse, subtlety, and goddamn-I-can't-believe-he's-not-wearing-a-monocle level of class, BIG FRIGGIN' REVOLVER.



God damn you Valve. God damn people who don't know what the spy is about. God damn you all. GOD DAMN YOU ALL.

 

[alpha incipiens]

I think the intention of this gun is a better retreat weapon; personally the only time I ever use the revolver is when I've already been discovered and need to discourage the enemy from following me as I retreat. While a tranquilizer gun would've been a good option as well, I don't think that the Ambassador really encourages reckless spy play; its long cooldown time is going to get you killed if you stick around after making your shot.

Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, this is probably the exact reason Valve chose this gun instead of a tranquilizer gun. The latter would've been useful in advancing on enemy bases as well as retreating, whereas the former is solely a retreat weapon. I'm guessing they wanted an item that was for retreating and nothing else.

The cigarette in his hand looks different.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Big wall o'text

Yes, I'm sure Valve (and, by extension, the creators of Team Fortress) don't know what they're doing. Obviously, they should listen to you. Only you. In fact, they should just make Darkside Fortress. Yeah.

 

[jimbo118]

So this gun replaces the old revolver? What about the knife? Will there be a new unlock to replace that?

 

[Darkside55]

You know, Pi, you can be as sarcastic as you like, but I truly dare you to actually try and refute my big wall o'text. Please, make an actual argument against what I'm saying rather than "Let me quote Darkside and give him the sass without actually addressing anything he brought up."

Because if there's one thing I actually do know, it's Team Fortress. And if there's two things I feel I'm qualified to speak out on about Team Fortress it's soldier and spy. I've devoted TEN YEARS to playing the spy. I've learned, done, taught, and forgotten more about the spy class than most people will ever know. I've contributed to the spy community, teaching people the ways of being a better backstabber.

So please, try and give me an actual argument against why the Ambassador would benefit the spy more than the tranquilizer gun. Please, tell me a situation in which the Ambassador would be more of a boon to teamwork than the tranquilizer gun. Tell me how the tranquilizer gun would be a bad idea, or why Valve shouldn't listen to me, or why I'm just prattling on about things I apparently know nothing about--or, at least, that I know less than Valve about.

Simply because one creates a game does not mean that they know what is best. This is a foolish statement. Game developers are not infallible; they're still capable of making mistakes. This is one such mistake.


I've already rifled off a letter to Robin Walker; hopefully he can shed some light on why the TF2 team decided to take this route.

 

[Hunter-Killer]

The cigarette in his hand looks different.

I don’t think the cigarette is different. In game the Red Spy has a "normal" cigarette while the Blu Spy has a "Liquorish" one (black/brown). The one in the pick looks pretty much like the one in game.

Seems we have a Knife replacement left according to the character setup. Also for some reason the watch picture is of the cigarette case, but then again I'm used to these pictures being wrong

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

You know, Pi, you can be as sarcastic as you like, but I truly dare you to actually try and refute my big wall o'text. Please, make an actual argument against what I'm saying rather than "Let me quote Darkside and give him the sass without actually addressing anything he brought up."

Because if there's one thing I actually do know, it's Team Fortress. And if there's two things I feel I'm qualified to speak out on about Team Fortress it's soldier and spy. I've devoted TEN YEARS to playing the spy. I've learned, done, taught, and forgotten more about the spy class than most people will ever know. I've contributed to the spy community, teaching people the ways of being a better backstabber.

So please, try and give me an actual argument against why the Ambassador would benefit the spy more than the tranquilizer gun. Please, tell me a situation in which the Ambassador would be more of a boon to teamwork than the tranquilizer gun. Tell me how the tranquilizer gun would be a bad idea, or why Valve shouldn't listen to me, or why I'm just prattling on about things I apparently know nothing about--or, at least, that I know less than Valve about.

Simply because one creates a game does not mean that they know what is best. This is a foolish statement. Game developers are not infallible; they're still capable of making mistakes. This is one such mistake.


I've already rifled off a letter to Robin Walker; hopefully he can shed some light on why the TF2 team decided to take this route.

No, because I don't care. You're just low-hanging fruit. I don't need to address your points (which I'm sure are all oh-so-correct) when I can just go for the presentation instead.

What does amuse me though is this:

Because if there's one thing I actually do know, it's Team Fortress. And if there's two things I feel I'm qualified to speak out on about Team Fortress it's soldier and spy. I've devoted TEN YEARS to playing the spy.

Yeah. I'd argue that if there's one thing that Valve know, it's Team Fortress. Just sayin'

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

a bit on the boring side. would have hoped for something a little more interesting.

 

[Eejit]

While I don't think the Ambassador is ideal I think a tranq gun would be overpowered in TF2. In TFC all classes were more maneuverable, largely through mechanisms a tranq gun couldn't effect. In TF2 only demoman, soldier and to some extent spy retain such abilities.
Point being a spy using tranq gun well would be far, far more effective in TF2 than in TFC. Too effective I suspect.

 

[Hunter-Killer]

Rant against the Ambassador

As much as I would have loved to have the Tranquiliser, it wouldn’t have worked. It's the same argument as to why the Scout doesn't have a machine gun. Obviously after play testing Valve realised that a lot of the classes needed changing from their original roots back in TF. The tranc gun would be unfair in this game because of the backstab mechanic. Imagine it, you shoot someone with the tranc, they slow down or stop then bam, your right behind them with a knife in their back before they even had a chance to think about turning round, it just wouldn't work and be painfully overpowered.

How can you say people are going to run in guns blazing with a gun that has a cool down between shots?! If anything people can do that with the existing revolver. I think the Ambassador is clearly a good idea, to me it feels like a last resort. You've just be spotted and need to get away but there are people who are trying to stop you, with a few well placed shots they will be dead and you will be gone.

By the way you could have wrapped up your whole essay a lot quicker if you didn't go off on some romantic rant about "back in the day of TF"

 

[Jintor]

I might have read it, but once it hit Darkseid Reminisces Territory (DRT) my eyes became a blur and I fell asleep.

Seriously. I don't care about how good TF was back in the day. I'm having fun now. I want to continuing having fun.

 

[bbson john]

I was expecting something like nuke. A spy carries a nuke behind enemy front line, explodes, and kills them all.

 

[Darkside55]

No, because I don't care.

If you didn't care you wouldn't bother to say anything in the first place. Why bother, then? Just to say, "Har har I sure got Darkside55 by being sarcastic and then telling him he's low-hanging fruit and not even worth my time debating?"

You quote me as if you have something to discuss with me on this discussion forum, but then you can't be arsed and fall right back to, "I'm sure Valve knows more than you about Team Fortress because they made it."

When it comes to programming, designing, the actual making of and updating the game, sure. But not always what might be in the best interest of the people playing the game, you see. They're still just people coming up with ideas that THEY think would be beneficial to the player. But unless you're actually playing a certain class religiously you might not know what that is. So instead of going for something that could make the spy more useful they went for an upgrade of his current weapon with a considerably slower RoF. And I'm not going to call them lazy for doing so like some people might, I just think it was a case of "We don't know what to do for spy. Have a bigger gun."

I think a tranq gun would be overpowered in TF2. In TFC all classes were more maneuverable, largely through mechanisms a tranq gun couldn't effect. In TF2 only demoman, soldier and to some extent spy retain such abilities.
Point being a spy using tranq gun well would be far, far more effective in TF2 than in TFC. Too effective I suspect.

Doubt it'd be as effective as you'd think. It'd still be quite a situational weapon, and it'd retain its slow rate of travel. Movement speed in TF2 isn't so hampered that you'd be unable to dodge a slow-moving projectile. Plus, unlike a stun, the enemy could still fire at you even if you DID manage to tranquilize them...and if you're alone, you're only going to be using the tranq gun to get away. In a team, though, the weapon would increase in usefulness and that would, again, help foster teamwork.

And saying that it'd be more effective than in TFC is really a given, considering its effectiveness in TFC was next to nil. I said in another thread, it took a real long time to get good with the thing.

Imagine it, you shoot someone with the tranc, they slow down or stop then bam, your right behind them with a knife in their back before they even had a chance to think about turning round, it just wouldn't work and be painfully overpowered.

No, because the enemy can still shoot you when you're tranq'ed. You're not so slow that you can't turn around before you get backstabbed. Especially in the case of splash damage classes like soldier and demoman, or the pyro, it's not going to work. Anybody with a shotgun, it's not going to work. Even melee-to-melee, you've only got a slightly better chance.

Seriously. I don't care about how good TF was back in the day. I'm having fun now. I want to continuing having fun.

Then why even play spy, bro? If you don't have the mindset of playing a spy why play a class geared to people who want to play a certain way? I'm a spy; I like sneaking and disrupting the enemy. That's MY fun. I think it would be fun if I could slow the enemy down and help my team; that's MY fun.

If your idea of fun is waltzing around with a powerful, one-shot gun, there's the sniper.

He's even got a bow and arrow now to get close.

 

[Jintor]

I'm having fun with the way the spy is geared now. If the updates break him, I will complain. If they don't break him, who gives a shit?

I like sneaking around, disguising as people, getting chains of backstabs, taking out that oh-so-confident medic and stab'n'sappin' the engie. Does the Ambassador stop me doing that? Would having a tranq gun help that happen?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

If you didn't care you wouldn't bother to say anything in the first place. Why bother, then? Just to say, "Har har I sure got Darkside55 by being sarcastic and then telling him he's low-hanging fruit and not even worth my time debating?"

You quote me as if you have something to discuss with me on this discussion forum, but then you can't be arsed and fall right back to, "I'm sure Valve knows more than you about Team Fortress because they made it."

When it comes to programming, designing, the actual making of and updating the game, sure. But not always what might be in the best interest of the people playing the game, you see. They're still just people coming up with ideas that THEY think would be beneficial to the player. But unless you're actually playing a certain class religiously you might not know what that is. So instead of going for something that could make the spy more useful they went for an upgrade of his current weapon with a considerably slower RoF. And I'm not going to call them lazy for doing so like some people might, I just think it was a case of "We don't know what to do for spy. Have a bigger gun."

Gosh, it's a good job you're here to tell me what this forum is for!

Also, "if you didn't care you wouldn't respond" is such bullshit. I don't care. Your points may be completely valid. They may be utter horseshit. I. Don't. Care. I am merely amused by your More-Team-Fortress-Than-Thou attitude about it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Darkside55]

I like sneaking around, disguising as people, getting chains of backstabs, taking out that oh-so-confident medic and stab'n'sappin' the engie. Does the Ambassador stop me doing that? Would having a tranq gun help that happen?

The tranq gun MIGHT help that happen. Certainly if the enemy was slowed maybe you would be able to get another backstab in your chain.

As I said earlier, if you and a spy teammate worked together one of you could sap a sentry and the other could tranq the engy. So yes, the tranq gun could also help THAT happen.

And you'd be doing something better for your team. It is TEAM Fortress 2, you know. All the team benefits that could have been, and you're like, "I like the way it is now. I have fun with the spy as he is now." Which, from your description of how you play the spy, is basically the "me me me helping my own score out" way to play spy. Chains of backstabs? Sure that might be fun, but it is not credit to team.

Right now most spies don't even sap to help the team, they just do it to screw with engineers and get points for themselves. Backstabs don't really help the team aside from putting an enemy out of commission for ten seconds.

Tranq gun could've been a real update to help the team. And all I hear is "Don't care, don't care, it's fine how it is, I was hoping it'd be something like this, I thought it might be a silenced pistol," etc.

I really don't get you guys sometimes, you know? I sure go off the deep end sometimes with my rants and old dinosaur stories about TFC, but at least I'm trying to say things that'd help out TF2 a little.

Truth is, HAD this update been the tranquilizer gun, you'd all be creaming your pants over how awesome it would be to tranq enemy defenders and keep them off your team's scouts, or put a tranq in the butt of a medic before he could heal and uber the heavy calling for him, or pairing up with a soldier and going on an awesome offensive sneak-and-then-CRIT ROCKET mission. You'd friggin' love it and you'd be hailing Valve as geniuses.

The only reason none of you like the idea is because it didn't happen and there's Darkside bitching about it.

But now you're going to be thinking of how awesome it could've been.

Spoiler

Goddamn CRIT ROCKET STEALTH MISSIONS HELL YEAH AND THEN THE SOLDIER'D BE LIKE "WE MAKE AN EXCELLENT TEAM" and the spy would be all like "OUI"

 

[Jintor]

I am kind of. But then you reminded me of why I hate the idea, i.e. you bitching about it, and I got a sour taste in my mouth and left.

See just because the spies you see aren't team players doesn't ****ing mean I am not. Chain of backstabs? Target medics, target snipers, take out heavy targets. Stab'n'sap? Wait until team is nearby before commencing operations so even if I fail, demomen can get in and plant bombs, soldiers/heavies can roll in and lay the smackdown out. I guess players are dicks. Players would be dicks even if they had a tranq gun.

So maybe the tranq gun sounds kind of cool. I didn't need you to proclaim that it was ****ing kingdom come because it didn't come out, and spies got a fancy revolver instead.

 

[Darkside55]

First of all I really don't give a damn about what you need or don't need me to proclaim. I'm pissed and I expressed it. That's my opinion and was done mainly for my own venting. I could give a shit what Jintor thinks.

Secondly, snipers, medics, and heavies aren't high priority targets. They're easy mode "I can get a kill on these guys because they aren't really paying attention to me" targets. If you think you're actually helping your team out by stopping them, I'm sorry, you're rather mistaken. You can have all the fun you like doing it, go right ahead, but please don't say you're being credit to team by taking out SNIPERS. They're snipers, bro. Snipers have rarely ever affected one side or another to make a difference in the equation. Same goes for heavies.

Medics, taking out medics could be considered credit to team. So gj on that, at least.

Enjoy your sap and stab. (Do you really stab then sap?)

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Darkside's off his meds again.

 

[Jintor]

Enjoy your sap and stab. (Do you really stab then sap?)

**** yeah, hit q to quick weapon switch to sapper. If the sentry's facing the other way then you're good, if not well that was a stupid thing to do.

PS If your snipers aren't helping turn the tide of battle then you have some shit-ass snipers. AREA. DENIAL.

 

[Slug Advisor]

I'm sure the tranq gun would be fun. For the spy. Other classes... Hmm...

 

[Hunter-Killer]

(Do you really stab then sap?)

Yes, and if you were the "all mighty veteran Spy" you trying to make out then I think you would too. Why run the risk of the Engy coming over and smacking you round the face and destroying your sapper when you can get rid of him first. I have seen “Sap & Stab” go wrong a lot more times than “Stab & Sap”.

No, because the enemy can still shoot you when you're tranq'ed. You're not so slow that you can't turn around before you get backstabbed. Especially in the case of splash damage classes like soldier and demoman, or the pyro, it's not going to work. Anybody with a shotgun, it's not going to work. Even melee-to-melee, you've only got a slightly better chance.

Only a “slightly better chance” Do you actually play the Spy or are you just ranting for the sake of it? If you tranq’ed someone from behind and they slowed down I can guarantee that 9 out of 10 times you would kill them unless they were the Pyro, Scout or maybe Medic because naturally they are faster than the Spy. When you play the Spy (and I assume you do from your ranting) you will know that sometimes you end up chasing people trying to catch up, I can tell you for a fact that if you were to have a tranc gun it would be far too easy to catch up and kill all of them, even if they were to turn round it still gives the Spy far too much advantage. The tranc would be over powered and that’s why we aren’t going to see it. We are not playing TFC so stop relating to it, and if you love it so much then go play that version!

 

[alpha incipiens]

As I said earlier, if you and a spy teammate worked together one of you could sap a sentry and the other could tranq the engy. So yes, the tranq gun could also help THAT happen.

Orrrr, one of you could sap the sentry and the other could just stab the engie, if you can't just stab him yourself.

Right now most spies don't even sap to help the team, they just do it to screw with engineers and get points for themselves. Backstabs don't really help the team aside from putting an enemy out of commission for ten seconds.

I'm sorry, but what is the point of sapping other than to take out the building and thereby help the team? The intentions behind it are more or less irrelevant; if someone is just standing on the capture point to rack up points, that still helps the team, doesn't it? I do agree that to many spies are lone wolf types, but that occurs with any class. The update shouldn't have to ensure that the person playing the class doesn't suck; sure, you could run into the enemy base uncloaked and undisguised, firing your Ambassador at anyone you encounter. But you'll have 125 hp, and the Ambassador has a cooldown period, so you'll die.

I'm not saying the tranq gun isn't a cool idea, but I don't think Valve is screwing up spy gameplay at all with the update. The revolver is mostly for retreating; as is the Ambassador. The gameplay stays balanced.

 

[Operational]

Truth is, HAD this update been the tranquilizer gun, you'd all be creaming your pants over how awesome it would be

Maybe. On the other hand there is some talk that between the Sandman, Rockets, Airblast, Stickies, Natascha and Sentries we already have too many things that can affect player movement... there might have been less support for a tranq gun than you think.

Although I can't say I'm that excited for The Ambassador.

Snipers have rarely ever affected one side or another to make a difference in the equation. Same goes for heavies.

I really disagree, decent Snipers can pin down multiple paths and really hamper a team. Most maps don't have that many paths to the objective, losing one or two to a good Sniper can really limit a teams flanking options. I've found it's not uncommon for a team wanting a Spy just to limit Snipers or for Spies to be criticized for not taking out Snipers first before moving on to whatever.

Heavy's, when they have a little bit of back up can also prevent your team from advancing, especially if there is a Medic present. Taking him out can really turn the skirmish your teams way. It's 300-400 damage your team can spend taking out the weaker classes and they lose the cover he provides.
Heavy's might be the least played class ATM, but he comes first in points and kills per hour.

(Do you really stab then sap?)

Absolutely. When I'm on my own it's my preferred way to get deal with a Eng + Sentry, sapping first just alerts the Eng to your presents. Sapping takes so long if you are killed or forced to run away and the Eng lives you've accomplished nothing at least if you screwup stab+sap the Eng won't be around to repair his stuff when your teammates come around.

 

[Darkside55]

**** yeah, hit q to quick weapon switch to sapper.

Yes, and if you were the "all mighty veteran Spy" you trying to make out then I think you would too.

Yeah, I know the process of it. That Daedalus guy put out that vid in 2007 when the game came out. Personally I don't dig it. It works fine when the conditions are right, I'm not saying anything against it, I'm just rather surprised you'd rely on it. Everything's got to be lined up just right. Personally I'd rather sap then stab.

If your snipers aren't helping turn the tide of battle then you have some shit-ass snipers. AREA. DENIAL.

Maybe on the last cap of Lazytown. Anywhere else snipers are dumpy. Cart maps? Dumpy. 2fort-style maps? Dumpy. That one castle map that I can't recall the name of? Dumpy.

Only a “slightly better chance” Do you actually play the Spy or are you just ranting for the sake of it? If you tranq’ed someone from behind and they slowed down I can guarantee that 9 out of 10 times you would kill them unless they were the Pyro, Scout or maybe Medic because naturally they are faster than the Spy. When you play the Spy (and I assume you do from your ranting) you will know that sometimes you end up chasing people trying to catch up, I can tell you for a fact that if you were to have a tranc gun it would be far too easy to catch up and kill all of them, even if they were to turn round it still gives the Spy far too much advantage. The tranc would be over powered and that’s why we aren’t going to see it. We are not playing TFC so stop relating to it, and if you love it so much then go play that version!

I think you're overestimating how much of a reduction the tranq could give. And add soldier, demoman, and of course spy to the list of classes that would still be able to fight against you if you were tranq'd in the back. Especially soldier or demo, more than the others. If I'm tranq'd as a soldier I'm going to blast backwards over the spy's head and kill him.

Anyway, you're basically arguing that the tranquilizer would be an overpowered gun when the spy is going to be carrying...an overpowered gun.

Cloak, wait, decloak, ambush with ambassador, cloak during cooldown, repeat.

 

[Marler]

darkside needs to calm down, or is he a highly profitable game developer?

 

[Asknoone]

I'm a spy; I like sneaking and disrupting the enemy. That's MY fun. I think it would be fun if I could slow the enemy down and help my team; that's MY fun.

But it doesn't work like that. It never did. That isn't working in conjunction with other classes or the game itself; it's injecting as much pure annoyance as you can into a single class and sitting back and letting that play out. That is not Good Game Design.

 

[ríomhaire]

Darkside, I'm curious as to what you consider actually helping the team. As far as I'm concerned chaining a bunch of kills in a row, especially when one is a fully charged medic, is a great help to the team as everyone else has to now deal with a couple less enemies, and one less invunerable enemy.

 

[Darkside55]

darkside needs to calm down, or is he a highly profitable game developer?

darkside

calm down

Rage is what I do, man.

And I once was highly profitable and employed in the gaming industry, but never as a developer.

But it doesn't work like that. It never did. That isn't working in conjunction with other classes or the game itself; it's injecting as much pure annoyance as you can into a single class and sitting back and letting that play out. That is not Good Game Design.

Uh...but that's what the spy does. Sapping engineers' buildings is disrupting the enemy. Sneaking up on defenders and taking them out is disrupting the enemy. What do you mean it doesn't work like that? That's what the spy does!

If you're referring to using the tranq gun, how is that not helping out the team? How often are you carrying the briefcase with attackers on your behind that you're trying to escape? Wouldn't it be helpful if a spy would suddenly decloak and put a dart in their butts and let you get to safety?

As far as annoyances go, anything can be termed an 'annoyance.' It's a very loose term.

Darkside, I'm curious as to what you consider actually helping the team. As far as I'm concerned chaining a bunch of kills in a row, especially when one is a fully charged medic, is a great help to the team as everyone else has to now deal with a couple less enemies, and one less invunerable enemy.

Well, I did say killing medics actually is credit to team, most of the time.

And when I say being a credit to your team, I mean something beyond just killing a bunch of people and freeing up a few seconds. Anyone can do that, and while it certainly helps, it's most often done for self-serving reasons. Which isn't to say that it's always done for that, don't get me wrong, but most of the time.

And when it comes to spy there's a lot more you could be doing than Solid Snaking your way around the enemy base and backstabbing people. You have to consider, is it really going to help out your team at that time? Would taking out that medic right now even be useful, or are you just going for the med because he's there and he's considered a priority target?

You have to consider, as a spy, you have the unique opportunity to move around the enemy base undetected. There's a lot you can do to serve your team with that. Reporting enemy emplacements, tracking enemy movements, reporting which classes are headed toward your base, etc. And of course if your team has incoming offense then you're freed up to start sapping and stabbing--or stabbing and sapping --and then melt back into the shadows.

But things like playing the spy to just get up into the base and launch into an attack once you see an unguarded backside isn't credit to team. Or sapping a sentry when there's no offense coming in to benefit from it. That's what I'm referring to.

 

[ríomhaire]

I find it kind of ironic that you refer to the random, selfish playstyle as Solid Snaking, when one of the most common ways of playing MGS2 is tranqing everyone.

And being able to actually do some damage at a distance other than two inches from the enemy's arse seems like it could be pretty benificial to the team. Maybe it's not what Spies are "supposed" to do but I've gotten the odd kill from shooting into an confruntation between my team and the enemy, from a safe distance, before cloaking again and heading further into the enemy base.

Also, trying to actually spy on the enemy and communicate with your team as to what the enemy are doing is often pretty useless in a public server, and at least two of the people you've been arguing with (myself and Jintor) don't really care about clan at all. The Cloak and Dagger should be good for doing that though.

 

[alpha incipiens]

Cloak, wait, decloak, ambush with ambassador, cloak during cooldown, repeat.

That sounds like a bad idea. It would draw much more attention than just stabbing and likely get you killed. I would much rather stab if I cloak and wait.

 

[Darkside55]

being able to actually do some damage at a distance other than two inches from the enemy's arse seems like it could be pretty benificial to the team. Maybe it's not what Spies are "supposed" to do but I've gotten the odd kill from shooting into an confruntation between my team and the enemy, from a safe distance, before cloaking again and heading further into the enemy base.

Lots of spies use the revolver already. It works, no arguments there, but yeah, there are 'better' ways to play the spy.

Also, trying to actually spy on the enemy and communicate with your team as to what the enemy are doing is often pretty useless in a public server, and at least two of the people you've been arguing with (myself and Jintor) don't really care about clan at all. The Cloak and Dagger should be good for doing that though.

Not so! If you get on a good pub, one with regular members and a good rotation, you can pull off ballsy shit working as a team. Granted that MAJORITY of the pub experience is just people hopping on and doing their own thing, coinciding with the team's goals when it suits them, but you'd be surprised at how it can work on a good pub.

Even if you don't have a "home" server, you'll find that most people are pretty receptive to a guy who reports in as a spy and starts relaying enemy points on the map. You get one, two, couple of guys who are working for the team, and it works.

That's a whole 'nother rant, man. People thinking communication on servers is useless. It works. It works and it works good.

Unless you sound like you're twelve, because then you get shut down by everybody. Poor twelve-year-olds.

That sounds like a bad idea. It would draw much more attention than just stabbing and likely get you killed. I would much rather stab if I cloak and wait.

Depends on the conditions, but I'm already thinking of a few spots in maps where you could just stand, cloak, and fire and be relatively safe.

Especially if you get cloak and dagger.

 

[Viperidae]

I have to say that playing as spy on dustbowl spampubs and playing as spy on arena servers with smart clans where everyone has a mic is like night and day. Everyone is spinning around in circles like a top, waiting for you, and it's damn hard to do anything alone. Your only chance is to attack when your teammates are attacking, which I suppose is how spy's meant to be played. Try stab-sapping (or sap-stabbing, for that matter) an Engineer when he's backed into a corner jumping up and down (so you can't jump on top of him for a skull-stab) with a demo and a scout camping his sentry. Add a coordinated enemy heavy-soldier-medic team going around the map ripping everything to shreds, and you have no hope of stabbing classes that you normally find easy fodder. Shit's tough. So, I'm inclined to agree that in higher level play spies absolutely must do coordinated attacks or he's doomed to crit wrenches and gibs.

As for the Ambassador, meh. I already find it hard enough to confidently land hits with the revolver. I'm usually scrambling and hopping like mad, hoping to land those last two hits to finish off that scout. Cooldown time and (what I assume will be) low reserve ammo doesn't sound appealing.

 

[PvtRyan]

God damn it you gave him a big ****ing revolver that does heavy damage and has a long cooldown. What kind of message are you sending here?

I'm pretty sure the message is:
"Hey guys, here's an alternative way to play the spy. Use it if you like it, but you don't have to, because - if we did a good job - you're not at a disadvantage when not using this weapon. Sure, it may attract a lot of newbies to a class that's hard to play, but that just means you can have fun easily killing them all."

I could be wrong though.

 

[swan_song1973]

its an ugly gun, but sounds effective.

 

[Sheepo]

GOD DAMN IT

You could've really had it, Valve. You started by bringing back feign death, which was the master spy's boon. The next day you drop Meet the Spy, and it was good. You had every chance to keep the ball rolling, bringing out amazing spy stuff...then you do this.

Why do you do this, Valve? For a game that's supposed to be based on teamwork and well-defined roles, it seems as though you really don't give a shit about that at all. It's like you don't really know what the spy does, or how he's supposed to be played, or how you could make him further credit to team.

Let me sum up what a spy does: disruption. A good spy disrupts the enemy. Spy is the monkey wrench in the enemy's gears that mucks up all their well-laid plans. Spy's the guy who sneaks his way in, takes out a sentry here, stabs a guard there, cloaks in a corner and gets on the mic and reports what the enemy is doing. That's the spy.

The spy is not Samuel L. Jackson in The Long Kiss Goodnight, storming into enemy territory with a big fuckin' revolver. The spy isn't "Lol my gun is hueg and keel u in one boolet." The spy is not a substitute sniper, the spy is not a long-range damage dealer, the spy is not supposed to be a six-shot-superhero AND YOU ARE ENCOURAGING NEWB PLAY WITH THESE STUPID FRIGGIN' UNLOCKS! Do you not even care what the roles of the classes are anymore? Do you not care about teaching players to support their team in beneficial ways?

God damn it you gave him a big fucking revolver that does heavy damage and has a long cooldown. What kind of message are you sending here? "This is the spy. Look at him be stealthy and rely on gadgetry and close-quarters combat to support his team. HERE HAVE A BIG GUN THAT WILL MAKE LOUD NOISES, PUT YOU IN HARM'S WAY, AND ENCOURAGES IDIOTS TO EQUIP IT, RUN INTO BASE, AND START UNLOADING, ALERTING EVERYONE TO YOUR PRESENCE. Please enjoy the spy class."

God damn you, Valve. Spy was the class of the gentleman long before you gave him slightly effeminate mannerisms, a French accent, and stuck a cigarette in his mouth. And what've you done? What've you done? You've given in to the casual side and given him a big, damage-dealing weapon. A weapon to appease the masses and go against what it truly meant to be a spy.





The tranquilizer gun...was the only thing that would have worked. I said it time and again. Amidst everyone else saying they wanted a gun like this, or a silenced pistol, or some other bullshit...no one listened. No one. Valve least of all. Maybe I should have sent them an e-mail or something. Maybe I should've made a thread somewhere they might've seen it better, like the Steam forums. I don't know. It's too late now.

You people who don't even know what it was like to be spy before...to stab under the moonlight of Cydonia...to feign death on the lights of Canalzone...to flit from shadow to shadow in Totalwar...to watch a man drown in the underwater tunnels of 2fort as he struggled against the poison in his veins, the lethargy slowing his movements as the water slowly filled his lungs and deprived his brain of oxygen, causing him to die quietly and never having reached your base, or return to his own...are you people happy now? He's got a big fucking revolver instead of the silent, usually-nonlethal tranquilizer gun he should have.

Instead of slowing enemies down so that he can escape, spies will now attempt to turn and fight, hoping that their superbullets will kill their pursuers. Instead of being in a state of constant stealth, they'll discharge a shot from a loud, high-damage revolver if they think they might be able to score a kill. Instead of serving the team by coordinating an offensive attack whereby the spy waits, offense rushes in, takes briefcase, spy decloaks and slows enemy defense with the tranq gun, he's going to be "DUHR HUHR AMBASSADOR." Instead of slowing enemy offense while playing defensive spy, same thing.

And instead of showing a measure of finesse, subtlety, and goddamn-I-can't-believe-he's-not-wearing-a-monocle level of class, BIG FRIGGIN' REVOLVER.



God damn you Valve. God damn people who don't know what the spy is about. God damn you all. GOD DAMN YOU ALL.

Have you considered the fact that you have no idea how it works at all? And if you seriously thought they were going to put in the tranq gun, I honestly feel sorry for you. If you like Team Fortress Classic, play it.

 

[Viperidae]

If you like Team Fortress Classic, play it.

He's played it so many times he knows every strategy, every outcome, every possible permutation of play. He can play it in his head.