Do you think that the US should change the constitution to ban firearms?

[Warbie]

Surely we should be asking whether anyone actually needs a firearm in the US, or why they feel they need one.

It's just so alien to me - to need a such a deadly weapon to feel secure in your own country.

 

[Scoobnfl]

Surely we should be asking whether anyone actually needs a firearm in the US, or why they feel they need one.

it says nothing in the constitution about needing a firearm, it only says that "A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

why does anyone need a car? do they really need it, or is it just a convenience?

once you open yourself to justifying your rights by need you will lose them as needs are based on opinion and if the powers that be decide that you no longer need that right or privilege you will lose it whther you needed it or not.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

i am not sure what to think of this...maybe just that if guns weren't as readily available, perhaps only the experts would be able to get it.. now that doesn't mean a ban would be the solution but strict access would be a step in the right direction

 

[RZAL]

i am not sure what to think of this...maybe just that if guns weren't as readily available, perhaps only the experts would be able to get it.. now that doesn't mean a ban would be the solution but strict access would be a step in the right direction

What do you mean by strict?

The Patriot

 

[Shad0hawK]

That catchphrase is such nonsense, and always sounds to me as if the NRA is trying to defend these dear helpless guns. The poor things.
As Eddie Izzard said: "The gun helps..."

it is actually a scientifically proven fact guns do not kill people, people do.

1.in every crime where a gun was involved, a human being pulled the trigger.

2. i replicated an experiment by some UT students, i placed a locked and loaded aK47 in my living room floor, and it never did jump up and kill anybody... of course it was only there 3 days, perhaps if i left it there longer it would have came to life and begin to spray bullets of it's own volition...

 

[Dr. Freeman]

What do you mean by strict?

The Patriot

i don't know...just needing to get a license for a gun is a bit easy don't u think?
have higher requirements to be eligible for a gun license....that should at least weed out ur average joe...of course this makes no difference to experts about such requirements.

 

[Kangy]

I don't see why people need a fricken assault rifle. Those things are even meant to defend the home. They're meant for use in war, against hundreds of enemies. There's just no need for it.

 

[Scoobnfl]

i didn't bother reading this whole thread so ill just give my opinion. basically guns should be and always be legal. w/o guns were defensless from our own gov't and that to me is scary. **** these robbers and rapists, im worried about our gov't.

100% agree.

With situations like ruby ridge and waco it makes you wonder when the govt. will kick in your door and kill your family for no reason.

 

[el Chi]

it is actually a scientifically proven fact guns do not kill people, people do.

1.in every crime where a gun was involved, a human being pulled the trigger.

2. i replicated an experiment by some UT students, i placed a locked and loaded aK47 in my living room floor, and it never did jump up and kill anybody... of course it was only there 3 days, perhaps if i left it there longer it would have came to life and begin to spray bullets of it's own volition...

<Claps> Genius. Well, that's all the convincing I need. :cheers:

 

[jverne]

i don't know...just needing to get a license for a gun is a bit easy don't u think?
have higher requirements to be eligible for a gun license....that should at least weed out ur average joe...of course this makes no difference to experts about such requirements.

i'm trying to prove that point, but i really dont see why it shouldn't work?! with our new traffic punsihment system, now almost nobody goes over the limit!

RZAL, i understand too but do you really think that if the age for owning guns would raise from 18 to 21 (or more) would cause riots? or restricting home users to 9mm handguns (unless having a license to own a bigger, like car categories-A,B,D,H...) would cause riots? would raising the price of an gun from 500 dollars to 1500 dollars cause riots?

of course we could never prevent crime, but at least we would prevent more accidents and people who seem normal but might snap if the neigbours dog would dig on his garden. The first thing that guy would do is pick up his gun and threaten or worse the neighbour? we would at least reduce gun deaths, don't you think?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

i'm trying to prove that point, but i really dont see why it shouldn't work?! with our new traffic punsihment system, now almost nobody goes over the limit!

RZAL, i understand too but do you really think that if the age for owning guns would raise from 18 to 21 (or more) would cause riots? or restricting home users to 9mm handguns (unless having a license to own a bigger, like car categories-A,B,D,H...) would cause riots? would raising the price of an gun from 500 dollars to 1500 dollars cause riots?

of course we could never prevent crime, but at least we would prevent more accidents and people who seem normal but might snap if the neigbours dog would dig on his garden. The first thing that guy would do is pick up his gun and threaten or worse the neighbour? we would at least reduce gun deaths, don't you think?

Like those traffic laws- we need stiffer, far stiffer punishments for those who commit gun violence, but banning guns is ineffective and the wrong choice. From my earlier statement, I went and got my paper, got the numbers- in 1992 over 5000 of the murders involving handguns were by criminals on parole or on early release.

Jverne, you've gotta see that the major point of the problem isn't home users. Suburbian home owners are one of the least likely demographics to be involved in gun violence. A majority of gun violence is BY handguns, not assault rifles, and it's mostly involved in gang or drug incidents. Gang and drug shootings would not decrease with a ban- we know that none of those people will turn in the weapons, or care if what they are purchasing is illegal.

 

[RZAL]

i don't know...just needing to get a license for a gun is a bit easy don't u think?
have higher requirements to be eligible for a gun license....that should at least weed out ur average joe...of course this makes no difference to experts about such requirements.

Dr Freeman

Will it make you feel any better if I tell you that most states, if not all require the following:

To purchase firearm

(1) Age limit 18-21
(2) Must undergo Criminal Records Check
(3) Must not have any of the following
(2) Has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
(3) Is a fugitive from justice;
(4) Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
(5) Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
(6) Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
(7) Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(8) Having been a citizen of the United states, has renounced his or her 8 citizenship;
(9) Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
(10) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm. A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information. [18 U. S. C. 922( g) and , 27 CFR 178.32( a) and (b)]

“Along with any additional state/federal laws”

Possession: some of the above
Concealed weapons permit: All of the above plus mandatory training and fees
Hunting License: Some of the above, plus mandatory training and fees.
True “assault weapons”: a whole crap load of stuff, including a large chunk of change.

I also want to point out that ur average Joe’s were the ones who fought and died for freedom. The ideal of America, freedom and the cause is for all who believes in it. The Constitution/ Bill of Rights belongs to ur average Joe’s, regardless of age, race, sex or economic standings.

As for mandatory training, I leave you with the words of Thomas Jefferson. Who said that all men, women and children should bear arms, young and old alike should be trained in their use.

The Patriot

 

[jverne]

Dr Freeman

Will it make you feel any better if I tell you that most states, if not all require the following:

To purchase firearm

(1) Age limit 18-21
(2) Must undergo Criminal Records Check
(3) Must not have any of the following
(2) Has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
(3) Is a fugitive from justice;
(4) Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
(5) Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
(6) Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
(7) Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(8) Having been a citizen of the United states, has renounced his or her 8 citizenship;
(9) Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
(10) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm. A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information. [18 U. S. C. 922( g) and , 27 CFR 178.32( a) and (b)]

“Along with any additional state/federal laws”

Possession: some of the above
Concealed weapons permit: All of the above plus mandatory training and fees
Hunting License: Some of the above, plus mandatory training and fees.
True “assault weapons”: a whole crap load of stuff, including a large chunk of change.

I also want to point out that ur average Joe’s were the ones who fought and died for freedom. The ideal of America, freedom and the cause is for all who believes in it. The Constitution/ Bill of Rights belongs to ur average Joe’s, regardless of age, race, sex or economic standings.

As for mandatory training, I leave you with the words of Thomas Jefferson. Who said that all men, women and children should bear arms, young and old alike should be trained in their use.

The Patriot

hmm...i think there should be an overwatch on gun owners too assure that the owners are in good mental state, likewise for the weapons! these laws are taken more or less, once only!
+make more strict regulation than these,...

if this doesn't help than i don't know what will!
i'm not being anti-american, but you have to addmit that at least 50-60% (or more) of americans are decendents of people (immigrants) who were mentaly questionable or were more susceptible to criminal behaviour and other sociopathic behaviour, therefore criminal acitvity is much more likely to occur.

"its's proven that genes are inheritet to 7 (or more) generations back!"

im basing this on our situation, because here in europe we have just a little more strict (somewhere the same or even less) rules, but criminality is nowhere near yours, i noticed here that most criminal acitity is to be blamed on immigrants, not only immigrants from distant countries but also within europe itself. i presume that MOST people who immigrate didn't have an good life in their land and try to seek a better life elswhere. but if you can't win in your home town then it's less likely you'll win somwhere else (get my point?). so mabey americans just need to grow up??!!

i'm not being racist nor am i saying that all immigrants are like this (but most), i'm just observing the situation, nothing else!

 

[Steve]

if this doesn't help than i don't know what will!
i'm not being anti-american, but you have to addmit that at least 50-60% (or more) of americans are decendents of people (immigrants) who were mentaly questionable or were more susceptible to criminal behaviour and other sociopathic behaviour, therefore criminal acitvity is much more likely to occur.

WHAT? You wanna produce some sources there, buddy? This is the first I've heard of this, and it sounds more that a little questionable.

 

[jverne]

WHAT? You wanna produce some sources there, buddy? This is the first I've heard of this, and it sounds more that a little questionable.

--------------------------------------------------------
-in america there are about 1800000 natives that is about 0.6%

http://www.americanwest.com/pages/indrank.htm

therefore there are 99.4% decendents of immigrants
--------------------------------------------------------------
-75% white people
Black or African American 12.3
American Indian and Alaska Native0.9
Asian 3.6
Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islanders 0.1
Two or more races 2.4
Some other race 5.5
Hispanic or Latino 12.5

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762156.html
------------------------------------------------------
-economic status

http://academic.udayton.edu/health/08civilrights/01-02-06Socioeconomic.htm

black people and "lationos" are normaly much more prone to criminal activity!! ok, now we have about 25% potential criminals.
------------------------------------------
-now lets see the whole picture

http://www.umsl.edu/~rkeel/010/econstra.html

Class Percentage of Population

Upper 1-3%

Upper Middle 10%

Lower middle 30-40%

Working 30-40%

Lower 20-25%
----------------------------------------------

to sum up:

25% (non white immigrants)+25% (lower class)+5% (other)= 55% potential criminals, or as i expresed myself earlyer mentaly questionable or more susceptible to criminal behaviour and other sociopathic behaviour.

these numbers are far from precise but you get my point!

ok, let me rephrase, a large portion of americans are mentaly questionable or more susceptible to criminal behaviour and other sociopathic behaviour.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

hmm...i think there should be an overwatch on gun owners too assure that the owners are in good mental state, likewise for the weapons! these laws are taken more or less, once only!
+make more strict regulation than these,...

if this doesn't help than i don't know what will!
i'm not being anti-american, but you have to addmit that at least 50-60% (or more) of americans are decendents of people (immigrants) who were mentaly questionable or were more susceptible to criminal behaviour and other sociopathic behaviour, therefore criminal acitvity is much more likely to occur.

"its's proven that genes are inheritet to 7 (or more) generations back!"

im basing this on our situation, because here in europe we have just a little more strict (somewhere the same or even less) rules, but criminality is nowhere near yours, i noticed here that most criminal acitity is to be blamed on immigrants, not only immigrants from distant countries but also within europe itself. i presume that MOST people who immigrate didn't have an good life in their land and try to seek a better life elswhere. but if you can't win in your home town then it's less likely you'll win somwhere else (get my point?). so mabey americans just need to grow up??!!

i'm not being racist nor am i saying that all immigrants are like this (but most), i'm just observing the situation, nothing else!

I find the sources you cited for this to be highly questionable (especially on economics. Classifying minorities as instant lowest class, it splits the middle class into too many fragments.)

But- you cannot purchase weapons if you are mentally unstable or have mental issues. So the entire post you made is already addressed in our laws.

 

[RZAL]

jverne

I have not reviewed the latest reports, nor do I plan to do so at this time. In the past I have wrote several argument papers on the topic. Not saying your sources are wrong, simply pointing to the best reference to use in gathering your information.

http://www.census.gov/
http://www.fbi.gov/homepage.htm

I will say traditionally, crime is the highest among younger, lower class black males. If I recall white pop 75%, Blk pop 12%, crime rate was around 70-75% Blk offenders.

Opposing argument to crime ratio was the Gov was discriminating against blks, years of repression.

Predisposition to crime (genes) I haven't seen any studies that are conclusive, then again its been a few years since I have researched it.

Very interesting topic, I think you are looking in the right direction as far as social and economic factors. I wouldn't put much stock in the gene theory at least not for crime.

Good Luck

The Patriot

 

[Dr. Freeman]

Dr Freeman

Will it make you feel any better if I tell you that most states, if not all require the following:

To purchase firearm

(1) Age limit 18-21
(2) Must undergo Criminal Records Check
(3) Must not have any of the following
(2) Has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
(3) Is a fugitive from justice;
(4) Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
(5) Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
(6) Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
(7) Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(8) Having been a citizen of the United states, has renounced his or her 8 citizenship;
(9) Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
(10) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm. A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information. [18 U. S. C. 922( g) and , 27 CFR 178.32( a) and (b)]

“Along with any additional state/federal laws”

Possession: some of the above
Concealed weapons permit: All of the above plus mandatory training and fees
Hunting License: Some of the above, plus mandatory training and fees.
True “assault weapons”: a whole crap load of stuff, including a large chunk of change.

I also want to point out that ur average Joe’s were the ones who fought and died for freedom. The ideal of America, freedom and the cause is for all who believes in it. The Constitution/ Bill of Rights belongs to ur average Joe’s, regardless of age, race, sex or economic standings.

As for mandatory training, I leave you with the words of Thomas Jefferson. Who said that all men, women and children should bear arms, young and old alike should be trained in their use.

The Patriot

i wasn't aware all those things were part of the requirements to owning firearms in the US...however i will say that raising the age limit permanently to 21 (getting rid of the 18 part) would help.

i reckon the only time an 18, 19 or 20 year old young adult would be needing firearms is for police training or similar instances in which case exceptions should/would be made.

anyway like anything in life, improvements can be made

 

[Tr0n]

So to sum up RZAL's post...

You must have a spotless criminal record in order to get a firearm legally.

Well not actually spotless...you can have some speeding tickets and probally j-walked a couple times on it.

 

[Raziaar]

So to sum up RZAL's post...

You must have a spotless criminal record in order to get a firearm legally.

Well not actually spotless...you can have some speeding tickets and probally j-walked a couple times on it.

I j-walk all the time in public sight of police officers in the states. Never been fined for it. hehe.

 

[UltraProAnti]

Interestingly, the poll here seems to say that Americans think America shouldn't ban private firearms ownership, while non-Americans think they should be banned in America. Why does the rest of the world care so much about the 2nd Amendment anyway?

 

[el Chi]

I j-walk all the time in public sight of police officers in the states. Never been fined for it. hehe.

TERRORIST!

 

[Eg.]

Interestingly, the poll here seems to say that Americans think America shouldn't ban private firearms ownership, while non-Americans think they should be banned in America. Why does the rest of the world care so much about the 2nd Amendment anyway?

because where ever america goes, the money follows. it like knowing john has a crud load of money, but u hate john, and u still do buisness with john, but u try to get john to trip anytime u can.

 

[jonbob]

No point really. People aren't going to surrender them if you did. The damage is done now.

 

[el Chi]

because where ever america goes, the money follows. it like knowing john has a crud load of money, but u hate john, and u still do buisness with john, but u try to get john to trip anytime u can.

Interesting analogy! But wrong.
Non-Americans aren't worked up about the second amendment because we want the US to "trip" (and by "trip" I presume you meant "f*ck up"), nor is it related to business.
Perhaps non-Americans don't have the right to complain. Perhaps it is none of our business.
But then, by way of slightly abstract logic, maybe it's none of our business if stoning, beheading or being buried alive is still used as an execution method in some countries. It's not your country; it's not your legal system; it's not your problem.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Interesting analogy! But wrong.
Non-Americans aren't worked up about the second amendment because we want the US to "trip" (and by "trip" I presume you meant "f*ck up"), nor is it related to business.
Perhaps non-Americans don't have the right to complain. Perhaps it is none of our business.
But then, by way of slightly abstract logic, maybe it's none of our business if stoning, beheading or being buried alive is still used as an execution method in some countries. It's not your country; it's not your legal system; it's not your problem.

Difference being everyone can logically see the difference. I understand the point you were trying to make, but like you said, abstract logic. The main destroyer of most 'philosophical' differences is common sense and applied logic- the difference between people outside disagreeing with legal arms and people disagreeing with human rights abuses is a big one.

It is interesting how the poll results are almost COMPLETELY reversed. We prefer to keep things like it is. A gun ban has the prospect of raising crime by a lot, and it is GUARANTEED to make us unportected against our government or any others.

 

[el Chi]

Difference being everyone can logically see the difference. I understand the point you were trying to make, but like you said, abstract logic. The main destroyer of most 'philosophical' differences is common sense and applied logic- the difference between people outside disagreeing with legal arms and people disagreeing with human rights abuses is a big one.

Well, actually it was more to do with "Do we have a right to interfere or judge the inner workings or laws of any other country?" Perhaps the examples I gave weren't the best ones possible, but the point was that people die (both due to execution methods and by gun ownership) due to the two issues. Again, I fear I'm not conveying myself too well.

The fact is that every day we make judgements on matters that do not entirely concern us. Be it a new law passed in a far off country, or your work-mate's attitude to his new girlfriend. Is our right to either criticise or make a judgement (be it moral or otherwise) on a matter dependant on our involvement? I don't think so.

And that's sort of more what I was getting at. I must remember to stop bringing up torture, it doesn't fit very well into any chat-up lines.

 

[Eg.]

who the hell does stoning and beheadings have to do with americans owning guns? if thats waht u hate, hark on the arab nations

 

[RZAL]

i wasn't aware all those things were part of the requirements to owning firearms in the US...however i will say that raising the age limit permanently to 21 (getting rid of the 18 part) would help.

i reckon the only time an 18, 19 or 20 year old young adult would be needing firearms is for police training or similar instances in which case exceptions should/would be made.

anyway like anything in life, improvements can be made

Michael Moore is an excellent propagandist, unfortunately he fails to fill you in on all the details.

The Patriot

 

[GiaOmerta]

Michael Moore is an excellent propagandist, unfortunately he fails to fill you in on all the details.

The Patriot

Agreed, he also fails to inform you of the timeframe between certain details, and the amount of editting he puts into he's work.

 

[el Chi]

who the hell does stoning and beheadings have to do with americans owning guns? if thats waht u hate, hark on the arab nations

Check out my second post - the one above yours. I admit that my examples confused my message.
My question was whether anyone has... Oh, just f*cking read it.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Check out my second post - the one above yours. I admit that my examples confused my message.
My question was whether anyone has... Oh, just f*cking read it.

I understand your message and such. I'm just saying- the right to interfere really depends on what's going on.


I feel sorry for Europeans that most of them have guns banned, but that's really a smaller law (well, aside from being undefended from the gvt, when the government starts taking advantage of it we'll be up in arms over it too) It is a case by case basis, that's how you have to look at it, rather than a fully 'their people, their business.' It is their people, but when their people lose all say and they are being killed, that's when we consider it an issue to interfere over.

 

[Nickcpus]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people has a somewhat great relevance to me.

That catchphrase is such nonsense, and always sounds to me as if the NRA is trying to defend these dear helpless guns. The poor things.
As Eddie Izzard said: "The gun helps..."

I'm from outside the US and I think they should ban all guns. Why do Americians need guns anyway If someone feels they need a firearm to be safe they're either deluded, or living in a very sorry place.

 

[Steve]

I'm from outside the US and I think they should ban all guns. Why do Americians need guns anyway If someone feels they need a firearm to be safe they're either deluded, or living in a very sorry place.

Okay, explain to me why a person is "deluded" because they feel they need a gun to defend themselves from a criminal with a gun.

 

[The Monkey]

Oh, not this thread again....But anyways, the police is there to protect the people, if you allow the people be become a police of its own, then you would get a ganster country. (The US is not that, I know)

 

[Steve]

Oh, not this thread again....But anyways, the police is there to protect the people, if you allow the people be become a police of its own, then you would get a ganster country. (The US is not that, I know)

Yeah, but the police can't be everywhere at once, so people have to be able to protect themselves sometimes.

 

[Nickcpus]

Okay, explain to me why a person is "deluded" because they feel they need a gun to defend themselves from a criminal with a gun.

Thats what the police are for. unlike ur average joe the police are trained in doing this kind of stuff, you know protecting people and all. ur average joe gets his hand on a gun, thinks he 's god and robs the locale drug store and shoots little timmy in the process.
Gun owners are deluded........





Guns are bad.

 

[firemachine69]

The fact of the matter is, we really know next to nothing about the affects of gun proliferation against crime, in particular deaths. There have been plenty of "studies" -that are really quite laughable when you look at their sources-, "Well look at this place its etc etc" and "My friend says guns don't kill people" but still we don't really know what effect taking away guns would have on crime in the US, or what effect allowing guns would have in a country like the UK.

I'll go dig up some stats. But they DO exist. Look what happened here. After Bill C-68, crime actually INCREASED by a large margin, most especially violent crimes. I agree, some guns are way overboard (seriously, why the hell does anyone need a full-auto assault rifle in their house), but I see no problem with carrying a handgun. The stories of those who's kids take their guns... Well, ever notice how very few and far in between the stories are of cops' guns being stolen? It's all in proper training, and NOT the parents. They hide them, and make them the "tempting apple". Had these kids been properly shown the responsibility of a gun, there'd be alot less problems.

 

[Steve]

Thats what the police are for. unlike ur average joe the police are trained in doing this kind of stuff, you know protecting people and all. ur average joe gets his hand on a gun, thinks he 's god and robs the locale drug store and shoots little timmy in the process.
Gun owners are deluded........

As I said, the police can't be everywhere at all times.

Okay, so a person breaks into my home. It will take at least 3 minutes for the police to get to my home. How am I going to defend myself in that three minutes, supposing I'm even able to get to a phone?

 

[Nickcpus]

As I said, the police can't be everywhere at all times.

Okay, so a person breaks into my home. It will take at least 3 minutes for the police to get to my home. How am I going to defend myself in that three minutes, supposing I'm even able to get to a phone?

Who made you judge and jury? maybe they are just drunk and confused about where they live and stumbled onto your porch by accindent. Now your scared and shoot them claiming self defense, happens all the time.



Gun owners are deluded