Doctor Who: Season 4

[Eejit]

Maybe more than a few.

If the Vault where Davros was kept was essentially a prison and him a "pet", why were all the controls necessary to control the entire ship and dalek race there?

If Caan 'turned good' while trying to save Davros, why didn't he just abandon the plan? Why save him only to have him destroyed again?

What was the point of the Shadow Proclamation in the previous episode? I thought they'd show up to help in the second part or something, but apparently they were just there to let the Doctor know other planets were missing? Bit of an anti-climax after all we'd heard about them, and their tough talk.

How did the dimensional-shift thingies work? They move them to the other dimension, they move around there, then they shift back to the 'main' universe? How does that work when you're on the Dalek Crucible? How do they get to "universe A" earth from "Universe B" earth unless it was in the Medusa Cascade in both universes? If Earth WAS in the Medusa Cascade in Universe B how did it get there, and then back to it's original position?

Why didn't the Doctor offer to take Mickey travelling again? Maybe he's temporarily 'gone off' having companions after what Davros said? But better to travel with someone he's already affected in that case rather than picking up a new passenger - which is inevitable.


I just hope they don't use the Daleks again for at least a season. It's getting a bit OTT.

 

[stemot]

If the Vault where Davros was kept was essentially a prison and him a "pet", why were all the controls necessary to control the entire ship and dalek race there?

Donna hacked into the main system using these controls, they were not controls for the main system, in the same way a hacker uses a keyboard to hack the internet.

If Caan 'turned good' while trying to save Davros, why didn't he just abandon the plan? Why save him only to have him destroyed again?

He went mad after he had rescued Davros and the effects had time to manifest themselves in his brain and overload it, kind of like how Rose was fine and god-like after the time vortex, but soon started to burn up with everything she knew, so it wasn't until then he realised what a blight the Daleks were on the galaxy.

What was the point of the Shadow Proclamation in the previous episode? I thought they'd show up to help in the second part or something, but apparently they were just there to let the Doctor know other planets were missing? Bit of an anti-climax after all we'd heard about them, and their tough talk.

They cannot travel time, that much is clear from the fact they didn't realize the planets were being taken from time as well, so hence with the Medusa Cascade being 1 second out of time, they had no way to take action, also the reason they needed the Tardis and the Doctor to lead the war.

How did the dimensional-shift thingies work? They move them to the other dimension, they move around there, then they shift back to the 'main' universe? How does that work when you're on the Dalek Crucible? How do they get to "universe A" earth from "Universe B" earth unless it was in the Medusa Cascade in both universes? If Earth WAS in the Medusa Cascade in Universe B how did it get there, and then back to it's original position?

The rift in the Medusa Cascade was a rift open to other dimensions, that's how Davros was going to destroy all realities, I assume that rift was how they were travelling through from Universe B to Universe A, using that as a kind of window. like it didn't matter that Earth was in a different place, and the Dimensional Shift devices can be programmed to shift to different locations in the other realities

Why didn't the Doctor offer to take Mickey travelling again? Maybe he's temporarily 'gone off' having companions after what Davros said? But better to travel with someone he's already affected in that case rather than picking up a new passenger - which is inevitable.

Dunno, not really a plot hole though.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

As pointed out on some of the Who forums, the techno babble did actually explain everything donna was doing, even though it was said very fast.

Also, is there some reason why every character in the show has to be there to do something critical to stopping the villain? Some where there just because they wanted to help even though they could not do much, sounds quite plausible to me. As for the Daleks being idiots, they were all tricked by Caan, who was a Dalek, who they would never suspect would trick one of his own kind, especially after saving their creator from the Time War, they were not idiots, just had no concept of betrayal due to their lack of emotions.

But then why were they there? Why were they put into the script? They were quite clearly there just to help the ratings. THis is also what the problem was with the Shadow Proclamation, they delivered nothing. THe only thing we got out of it was that woman shouting a bit, which at least led me to believe, like Eejit that they might show up or be of some importance in part 2. They weren't. They did nothing of use in this episode. And I don't mean being tricked by Caan, I mean exactly what Eejit said about the controls in Davros' chamber. My whole problem is it was such a Deus Ex Machina- so boring. There was no solving the problem, there was no building up suspense of how are they gonna get out of this tricky situation cause five seconds after their last hope is gone, Donna saves the day by... hitting buttons. Hitting buttons and technobabble were the only things that solved anything in this episode and it is BORING! They should have made it a three-parter and put some effort into it, like they did with part 1&2 of The Master arch last year (part 3 had the same problems as this did, everything gets solved way too quickly and way too big a part of the episode is devoted to tearful goodbyes that feel way too forced).

 

[Eejit]

Impending quote wars. But keep it quiet or Stern might want to join in.

Donna hacked into the main system using these controls, they were not controls for the main system, in the same way a hacker uses a keyboard to hack the internet.

It's still an awful lot of controls to have in an area that is basically a prison. Also insta-hacking ftw?

He went mad after he had rescued Davros and the effects had time to manifest themselves in his brain and overload it, kind of like how Rose was fine and god-like after the time vortex, but soon started to burn up with everything she knew, so it wasn't until then he realised what a blight the Daleks were on the galaxy.

Semi-plausible but I have a feeling Davros said something about Caan going mad while searching for them.

They cannot travel time, that much is clear from the fact they didn't realize the planets were being taken from time as well, so hence with the Medusa Cascade being 1 second out of time, they had no way to take action, also the reason they needed the Tardis and the Doctor to lead the war.

I didn't say they should travel in time, but it was kinda pointless to include them if all they're there for is so the Doctor can borrow their internet or whatever.

The rift in the Medusa Cascade was a rift open to other dimensions, that's how Davros was going to destroy all realities, I assume that rift was how they were travelling through from Universe B to Universe A, using that as a kind of window. like it didn't matter that Earth was in a different place, and the Dimensional Shift devices can be programmed to shift to different locations in the other realities

Instantly programmed? So they're psychic interdimensional teleports with unlimited range?
And as long as there's a 'window' anywhere in the universe they can teleport through that, even if the destination or departure is millions of light-years away?
If Rose could teleport from Earth B to Earth A in Turn Left even though apparently neither planet was at the Medusa Cascade in Donna's timeline why can't she always do it?
How did the stars start going out in Turn Left if the Earth hadn't moved?

Dunno, not really a plot hole though.

But odd.

 

[stemot]

But then why were they there? Why were they put into the script? They were quite clearly there just to help the ratings. THis is also what the problem was with the Shadow Proclamation, they delivered nothing. THe only thing we got out of it was that woman shouting a bit, which at least led me to believe, like Eejit that they might show up or be of some importance in part 2. They weren't. They did nothing of use in this episode. And I don't mean being tricked by Caan, I mean exactly what Eejit said about the controls in Davros' chamber. My whole problem is it was such a Deus Ex Machina- so boring. There was no solving the problem, there was no building up suspense of how are they gonna get out of this tricky situation cause five seconds after their last hope is gone, Donna saves the day by... hitting buttons. Hitting buttons and technobabble were the only things that solved anything in this episode and it is BORING! They should have made it a three-parter and put some effort into it, like they did with part 1&2 of The Master arch last year (part 3 had the same problems as this did, everything gets solved way too quickly and way too big a part of the episode is devoted to tearful goodbyes that feel way too forced).

Again, why do they have have a function to the outcome just for being there? Yes, Ratings, people love to see old companions, but in regards to story, they just wanted too help, whether they could or not, something the Doctor loves about the human race.

She hacked into the Daleks central computer using the console, she was the reason they were beaten. A new half Timelord Companion who thought of things a Timelord never could was the reason for the outcome, not hitting buttons and technobabble.

One other thing, the scenes of Donna goodbye were brilliant, if you feel that was forced, then I`m through with this. Roses, yes, I'll give you that, it felt uncomfortable, but that was my only bad point among the entire two parter.

 

[Eejit]

I'm just happy Hiss and Mumble-lisp are gone for good.

Still, the only other thing this episode had over the Master's arc was the lack of a complete reset.

 

[stemot]

Impending quote wars. But keep it quiet or Stern might want to join in.

It's still an awful lot of controls to have in an area that is basically a prison. Also insta-hacking ftw?

He was tasked with started the Dalek race again, I think he would need access to a little more than a mobile phone. ;D

Semi-plausible but I have a feeling Davros said something about Caan going mad while searching for them.

Nah, he said he went mad and died a thousand times because he broke into the time-locked Time War, but the effects could have manifested themselves later, after which Davros had already been saved, then Caan realised what he must do.

I didn't say they should travel in time, but it was kinda pointless to include them if all they're there for is so the Doctor can borrow their internet or whatever.

I just think RTD had used their name so much, he felt the need to show a bit of them. Originally they were planning to make them out as a kind of "federation" of different species such as Slitheen etc but they ran out of budget, so they were scaled back to space police.

Instantly programmed? So they're psychic interdimensional teleports with unlimited range?
And as long as there's a 'window' anywhere in the universe they can teleport through that, even if the destination or departure is millions of light-years away?
If Rose could teleport from Earth B to Earth A in Turn Left even though apparently neither planet was at the Medusa Cascade in Donna's timeline why can't she always do it?
How did the stars start going out in Turn Left if the Earth hadn't moved?

I never meant instantly, maybe that's the way they had worked all along. The reason she can't do it all the time is because the walls of reality will collapse, but Davros opened the rift in the Medusa Cascade, which meant that her doing it didn't really make much difference seeing as everything was going to hell.
Also as stated by the Doctor, the alt universe ahead of ours, so Davros only needed our earth to start the wave and when he did the other universe saw their stars disappear, he didn't need to take theirs, they just saw the effects, and we saw it because their timeline is ahead of our universes.
I hope that made a little sense.

 

[stintage]

Ghost Doctor Duplicate!

 

[Eejit]

He was tasked with started the Dalek race again, I think he would need access to a little more than a mobile phone. ;D

He'd already started them. The Crucible was probably built after they were well established too imo, after the Supreme Dalek had relieved Davros off command.

Nah, he said he went mad and died a thousand times because he broke into the time-locked Time War, but the effects could have manifested themselves later, after which Davros had already been saved, then Caan realised what he must do.

Sounds convoluted enough that it might be another deus ex.

I just think RTD had used their name so much, he felt the need to show a bit of them. Originally they were planning to make them out as a kind of "federation" of different species such as Slitheen etc but they ran out of budget, so they were scaled back to space police.

I'd have preferred it if they'd saved them for an appearance when they actually make an impact or do something in any way useful.

I

never meant instantly, maybe that's the way they had worked all along. The reason she can't do it all the time is because the walls of reality will collapse, but Davros opened the rift in the Medusa Cascade, which meant that her doing it didn't really make much difference seeing as everything was going to hell.
Also as stated by the Doctor, the alt universe ahead of ours, so Davros only needed our earth to start the wave and when he did the other universe saw their stars disappear, he didn't need to take theirs, they just saw the effects, and we saw it because their timeline is ahead of our universes.
I hope that made a little sense.

Another time paradox then.

 

[knut]

Not bad, not bad. Technobabble with Donna was cringeworthy and the Supreme Dalek was pointless as hell, but it was all worth it to see Davros' plan backfiring like in the good old days. And once again, I felt somewhat sorry for him.

 

[el Chi]

Much as I love the Daleks (and I do) the whole "Well, that's the last we'll see of th- Oh bother, here we go again!" game is getting a little silly. We all know they'll be back and that's fine but I just wish it wasn't so contrived.
Or they could at least explain why they keep turning up. Some sort of significance beyond their iconic status as a British TV institution.

Personally, with Doctor Who I tend to just lie back and run with it. I know it's a huge cop-out, but I usually just adopt the "F*ck it: they wrote it, so they can do what they want" perspective whilst shrugging my metaphorical shoulders, because more often than not I'm really enjoying myself.
Yes it was daft that there were so many significant controls in that "vault" but whatever, it brought a nice, quick and easy way to show off Donna's new-found skills and it also meant that they showed off the Daleks being controlled like RC cars with broken controls and that's fine by me.
Trample on my scrotum in stilettos as much as you damn well please, so long as I'm enjoying it too.

One thing that surprised me (a lot, actually) about this series was that Catherine Tate didn't make me want to die. Almost everything I've ever seen her do has been mind-bendingly shit and her being a genuinely good companion was a really pleasant surprise. Bravo.

 

[Eejit]

Personally, with Doctor Who I tend to just lie back and run with it. I know it's a huge cop-out, but I usually just adopt the "F*ck it: they wrote it, so they can do what they want" perspective whilst shrugging my metaphorical shoulders, because more often than not I'm really enjoying myself.

What happened to your physical shoulders?

Also Donna was annoying as hell. I thought Tate acted her well, but the character was really aggravating.

 

[el Chi]

I lost my physical shoulders in a bet. In retrospect it was foolish to gamble body parts on a two pair but you live and learn.

Donna grew on me. The first episode (Runaway Bride?) I foud her a bit grating but I warmed to her as things went on. No accounting for taste I guess

 

[AJ Rimmer]

No accounting for Tate I guess

Fix'd.

 

[stemot]

He'd already started them. The Crucible was probably built after they were well established too imo, after the Supreme Dalek had relieved Davros off command.

That may be, but he was still the one running the whole shebang of stealing the planets etc, it was his masterplan and him that carried out the operation (for instance, he gave the order to fire the reality bomb and start the testing), so he's going to have some controls in his vault to do it with.
Even if that wasn't the case, which it is, those controls were not dangerous to the Daleks until Donna hacked (for want of a better word) them into the Dalek supercomputer.

Sounds convoluted enough that it might be another deus ex.

Whatever, that's the reason for it in regards to the story.

I'd have preferred it if they'd saved them for an appearance when they actually make an impact or do something in any way useful.

Me too, but it's Russels last series, and they are his creation, so I guess he felt that it was really his last chance to use them.

Another time paradox then.

Not really, just the alternative universes being ahead of our time and so seeing the consequences of Davros firing the bomb.

Also Donna was annoying as hell. I thought Tate acted her well, but the character was really aggravating.

I found Donna to be a far better companion than Martha ever was, maybe even Rose have not decided yet, and as you said, Tate acted her well.

 

[Eejit]

Not really, just the alternative universes being ahead of our time and so seeing the consequences of Davros firing the bomb.

i.e. a paradox.
They saw him firing the bomb, so they travelled through time and between universes to stop it, which means they never saw him fire it in the first place, which means they wouldn't have helped stop it...

 

[stemot]

i.e. a paradox.
They saw him firing the bomb, so they travelled through time and between universes to stop it, which means they never saw him fire it in the first place, which means they wouldn't have helped stop it...

okay, you got me yeah you got what I meant

 

[el Chi]

stemot, you seem on the ball as far as Doctor Who goes: the Time War mentioned in these new series (and by extension the Doctor being the last Time Lord alive) is a new creation, isn't it? I don't remember it ever being mentioned in the older (ie: '80s and beyond) series and I'm pretty sure there were other Time Lords in them... Weren't there?

 

[Eejit]

Yeah it happened during the 8th Doctor's period mainly, with the 9th originating near the tail end or very shortly after.


One of the reasons I prefer Martha out of the new companions is she doesn't have a bloody speech impediment like mumbles and hiss.
She still has a horrible London accent though.

 

[stemot]

stemot, you seem on the ball as far as Doctor Who goes: the Time War mentioned in these new series (and by extension the Doctor being the last Time Lord alive) is a new creation, isn't it? I don't remember it ever being mentioned in the older (ie: '80s and beyond) series and I'm pretty sure there were other Time Lords in them... Weren't there?

This is directly from Wikipedia and explains how the backstory of the Time War ties into the old episodes from the Classic Series:-

"The Doctor Who Annual 2006, published by Panini in August 2005, contains an article entitled Meet the Doctor by Russell T. Davies, which provides some additional background information on the Time War as seen in the television series, also mentioning in passing events depicted in the novels, audios, and comic strips.

The article describes the Time Lord policy of non-intervention, but states that on a "higher level," they protected the time vortex, and kept the peace. It further claims that two previous "Time Wars" had been fought: the first a skirmish between the Halldons (a race mentioned in the Terry Nation story We Are the Daleks from the Radio Times 10th Anniversary Special, 1973) and the Eternals (Enlightenment). The second was the brutal slaughter of the Omnicraven Uprising, with the Time Lords intervening on both occasions to settle matters.

The conflict between the Daleks and the Time Lords is described as "the Great (and final) Time War." Initial clashes included the Dalek attempt to infiltrate the High Council of the Time Lords with duplicates (Resurrection of the Daleks, 1984), and the open declaration of hostilities by one of the Dalek Puppet Emperors (possibly Davros in Remembrance of the Daleks); the Daleks claim these are merely in retaliation for the Time Lords' sending the Doctor back in time to change Dalek history in Genesis of the Daleks.

The article says that historical records are uncertain, but mentions two specific events in the lead-up to the war. The first was an attempted Dalek-Time Lord peace treaty initiated by President Romana under the Act of Master Restitution (a possible reference to the otherwise-unexplained trial of the Master on Skaro at the beginning of the BBC Doctor Who television movie, 1996). The second was the Etra Prime Incident (The Apocalypse Element), which some say "began the escalation of events." Weapons used by the Time Lords included Bowships, Black Hole Carriers and N-Forms (the last from Davies' 1996 New Adventures novel Damaged Goods), while the Daleks wielded "the full might of the Deathsmiths of Goth" (from the comic strip story Black Legacy by Alan Moore and David Lloyd, in Doctor Who Weekly #35-#38), and launched a massive fleet into the vortex (possibly in The Time of the Daleks).

The timelines of lesser races and planets shifted without the inhabitants of the worlds affected being aware of the changes in history, as they were a part of them (presumably including Humans). "Higher species" who were able to notice the changes included the Forest of Cheem, who were distraught at the bloodshed; the Nestene Consciousness, which lost all its planets, and further mutated; the Greater Animus, which died; the Eternals, who apparently fled this reality in despair, never to be seen again; and the Gelth, who were forced to take incorporeal form and hide themselves at the edge of the universe. The war lasted for years, and exactly how it ended is also not precisely known. Series writer Paul Cornell opines that the contrasting depictions of the Earth's destruction in The Ark (1966) and "The End of the World" (2005) were due to changes in history caused by the Time War."


I think the new Who production team and writers did a good job of writing the time war into the past events into the series.

Plus, the only action shot of the time war:-

 

[el Chi]

Cheers for that, stemot!
I much, much prefer the idea of the Doctor being alone as the last of his kind: it gives a very interesting, darker edge to his character.

Yeah it happened during the 8th Doctor's period mainly, with the 9th originating near the tail end or very shortly after.


One of the reasons I prefer Martha out of the new companions is she doesn't have a bloody speech impediment like mumbles and hiss.
She still has a horrible London accent though.

She's also really, really hawt.

 

[Dalamari]

Cheers for that, stemot!
I much, much prefer the idea of the Doctor being alone as the last of his kind: it gives a very interesting, darker edge to his character.

Agreed, would much rather have solo doctor than another companion

 

[ríomhaire]

I agree with everying AJ said. The companions all did nothing and almost no plot elements from the previous episode were used.The damn key that was so important before does nothing.

The Warp Star or whatever it was came in and then was dropped (literally) when the three dumbasses ran straight into the hands of the Daleks twenty minutes later. The exact same thing happens with the other Doctor's (ugh! other Doctor!) Dalek destruction device. The second Doctor is also shot by a Dalek and seems to just shrug it off. Then Donna Ex Machina saves the day. None of the other companions are any bit of use what so ever.

Then the other Doctor and Rose live happily ever after in alternate Norway, making all the fangirls squueeeeee with delight.

Only good thing was Davros. Davros' rants were the highlight of the episode. Also, I think you're taking Caan the wrong way. I don't think he turned good, I think that after seeing the Daleks defeated again and again he realised that the Daleks were not the superior race and just useless as they can't fulfill their one purpose.




Hopefully Moffat can write better season finales. On that subject. I imagine that Moffat wrote the Library episodes with full knowledge that he was taking over the show. So I expect we'll be seeing a bit more of that girl from the Library (don't remember her name) and some screwdrive upgrades as we go along. Also he surely wouldn't have requested Jenny back unless he wanted to use her.


Finally, I like that they don't seem to be setting the Christmas Cybermen episode in present day again. I think we see to much present-day Earth and London in the show. Though I am disapointed that they are using the same design. I was hoping for a new design (because they'd better not have crossed from the other dimention again, you know the one that's impossible to cross? They had better be original-universe Cybermen).

 

[knut]

I had read somewhere the Cybermen in the next episode were going to be varients of the older design (one of the first), but alas, no.

I loathe the new Cybermen but hey ho, we'll see what the episodes about first.

 

[stemot]

I agree with everying AJ said. The companions all did nothing and almost no plot elements from the previous episode were used.The damn key that was so important before does nothing.

The Warp Star or whatever it was came in and then was dropped (literally) when the three dumbasses ran straight into the hands of the Daleks twenty minutes later. The exact same thing happens with the other Doctor's (ugh! other Doctor!) Dalek destruction device. The second Doctor is also shot by a Dalek and seems to just shrug it off. Then Donna Ex Machina saves the day. None of the other companions are any bit of use what so ever.

Then the other Doctor and Rose live happily ever after in alternate Norway, making all the fangirls squueeeeee with delight.

Only good thing was Davros. Davros' rants were the highlight of the episode. Also, I think you're taking Caan the wrong way. I don't think he turned good, I think that after seeing the Daleks defeated again and again he realised that the Daleks were not the superior race and just useless as they can't fulfill their one purpose.




Hopefully Moffat can write better season finales. On that subject. I imagine that Moffat wrote the Library episodes with full knowledge that he was taking over the show. So I expect we'll be seeing a bit more of that girl from the Library (don't remember her name) and some screwdrive upgrades as we go along. Also he surely wouldn't have requested Jenny back unless he wanted to use her.


Finally, I like that they don't seem to be setting the Christmas Cybermen episode in present day again. I think we see to much present-day Earth and London in the show. Though I am disapointed that they are using the same design. I was hoping for a new design (because they'd better not have crossed from the other dimention again, you know the one that's impossible to cross? They had better be original-universe Cybermen).

Did you even really watch the episode? The second Doctor was not shot by a Dalek, he was electrocuted by Davros, which is not fatal. Also, why do the other companions HAVE to do something to save the day? Can't they just be as helpless against the Daleks as everyone else?
As for Deus Ex Machina Donna...If your going to say that, surely any plot point that saves the day can be called that, if so, then Doctor Who has always been that way, even back to the old series (Revelation Of The Daleks springs to mind, jesus, that was an anti-climax).
As for Caan, he said he saw the Daleks throughout time and decreed, no more. So he never really explains his actions, but the Cult Of Skaro were the only Daleks capable of independant thought, and the Daleks already know how many times their plans have failed, Caan didn't need to travel through the Vortex to see that.
He finally realised what a blight they were on time, and put into motion plans to finish them, although as he said, it was always going to happen, he just made it happen sooner, so I still don't belive he was the only one involved.

The Christams Special is set in Victorian England.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Did you even really watch the episode? The second Doctor was not shot by a Dalek, he was electrocuted by Davros, which is not fatal. Also, why do the other companions HAVE to do something to save the day? Can't they just be as helpless against the Daleks as everyone else?

They don't have to save the day, but it's a pretty basic rule of writing in anything that you don't include characters just for the point of having a character there, they should accomplish something, fill some function in the story. For instance, if Jackie, Mickey, Sarah and Jack had witnessed the reality bomb test, then somehow escaped the Daleks with the Warp Star to the Doctor and told him all about it before being pwned by the Daleks, that'd be absolutely fine- They would have genuinely accomplished something and still got pwned by the Daleks and helpless before Davros, and the Daleks get to act slightly less stupid by telling the Doctor all their plans.

 

[Eejit]

As for Deus Ex Machina Donna...If your going to say that, surely any plot point that saves the day can be called that

The ones that come completely out of nowhere, yeah. Just because it's common in Doctor Who doesn't make it good.
The restoration of the Doctor in Last of the Time Lords was probably one of the least deus-ex-y wins given that they had already established the worldwide psychic network and the Doctor has been shown to have some limited telepathic/psychic ability several times.

 

[stemot]

They don't have to save the day, but it's a pretty basic rule of writing in anything that you don't include characters just for the point of having a character there, they should accomplish something, fill some function in the story. For instance, if Jackie, Mickey, Sarah and Jack had witnessed the reality bomb test, then somehow escaped the Daleks with the Warp Star to the Doctor and told him all about it before being pwned by the Daleks, that'd be absolutely fine- They would have genuinely accomplished something and still got pwned by the Daleks and helpless before Davros, and the Daleks get to act slightly less stupid by telling the Doctor all their plans.

See, I disagree, if that was the case, there would be no need for extra's on TV seriously though, I really don't see the problem with it.

 

[Eejit]

Look if a character (not an extra) appears it should be for a purpose, otherwise it's just "The gang's all here!" syndrome - poor writing.

 

[stemot]

Look if a character (not an extra) appears it should be for a purpose, otherwise it's just "The gang's all here!" syndrome - poor writing.

I just disagree, sorry,. It's not as if in life every person in every situation has to offer something valuable to the said situation. You may say that this is not the case in TV but as far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with, it added a little bit more of a closure to the four seasons to see the crew back together one last time, and from a story standpoint, I don't give a toss if they are important to the resolution of the story, and because they are not, I do not consider it bad writing.

Old who did exactly the same thing with "Remembrance....", there was no need for Davros to be inside the Emperor Dalek for 5 minutes at the end, it added nothing at all to the story, he just popped out, had a rant, escaped, but nobody complained about that as it's considered one of the best written episodes of the classic series.

I understand the point your trying to make, but your having a go at the episode as if the old series never suffered from the same thing, I mean, the Classic story 5 Doctors, which had Daleks, The Master, 5 of the Doctors, that was just one big huge fan wank, at least this years finale had a decent story to go with the extra appearances.

Anyway, I'm done, I don't see the need for every character to hold a piece to the solution of the end of reality, you guys don't think it works, fine, I'll just disagree with you, doesn't make me right, doesn't make you right, but the episode does have the highest appreciation index rating yet for an episode of Dr Who (91) so it can't have been to bad if other people enjoyed it.

There. My discussion on this subject, like Series 4, is over.

 

[Asknoone]

I think you might be a bit blighted by your fanboyism. Series 4 (like the rest), for me, was just mediocre crud. And since that's your last post on the subject, I have the last word! Ha! K now I'm just flamebaiting, I'll stop.

 

[stemot]

I think you might be a bit blighted by your fanboyism. Series 4 (like the rest), for me, was just mediocre crud. And since that's your last post on the subject, I have the last word! Ha! K now I'm just flamebaiting, I'll stop.

Yes it is my lost post on the Dr Who series 4 subject but I can still say your opinion is worthless to me since I don't think there is anything you actually like. I'll stop.

 

[ríomhaire]

Is it me or did the single Dalek in Dalek kill more people than this entire Dalek empire. The death toll in that episode IIRC is said to be 300, while only Hariot Jones, former primeminister, some UNIT forces and the randomers the Reality Bomb was tested on are shown to be killed.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Is it me or did the single Dalek in Dalek kill more people than this entire Dalek empire. The death toll in that episode IIRC is said to be 300, while only Hariot Jones, former primeminister, some UNIT forces and the randomers the Reality Bomb was tested on are shown to be killed.

I don't think the Dalek in Dalek reached quite 300, but he's definately got the highest dalek kill-ratio. I think the cult of Skaro probably kills about as many in Doomsday as the lone Dalek did in Dalek. So he's still in the lead. And definately the best depiction of a Dalek in the new series.

 

[ríomhaire]

I think that Van Staton's assitant states the bodycount near the end. I'm not possitive but I think it might of been 300.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

I think that Van Staton's assitant states the bodycount near the end. I'm not possitive but I think it might of been 300.

Bummer, she says 200.

 

[Eejit]

Yeah, just watched the last 3 episodes of Season 3 again. As far as quality goes they're right up there with Blink, Family of Blood, The Doctor Dances and Dalek.
In terms of the Doctor's emotional involvement they just about equal Dalek, with nothing else really coming close.
Some amazing lines and acting as well as a great plot. (On re-watching it again the whole "oops it never happened" seems like much less of a deus ex machina. It makes sense that the universe would reset once the paradox machine was disabled.) One of the very best Doctor villains, much more effective (paradox being ended aside) than Davros was in season 4.

Definitely the best story-arc so far for me, no doubt. The other finales pale in comparison.

 

[Iron Kat]

Funnily enough, I've just watched the end of series three as well!! I loved those last three episodes, some of the best ones made imo. Thing is, I'm not sure which last three episodes I like more: Utopia, Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords, or Turn Left, The Stolen Earth and The Journey's End!!

 

[stemot]

Yeah, just watched the last 3 episodes of Season 3 again. As far as quality goes they're right up there with Blink, Family of Blood, The Doctor Dances and Dalek.
In terms of the Doctor's emotional involvement they just about equal Dalek, with nothing else really coming close.
Some amazing lines and acting as well as a great plot. (On re-watching it again the whole "oops it never happened" seems like much less of a deus ex machina. It makes sense that the universe would reset once the paradox machine was disabled.) One of the very best Doctor villains, much more effective (paradox being ended aside) than Davros was in season 4.

Definitely the best story-arc so far for me, no doubt. The other finales pale in comparison.

I can't agree, loved the Master, but this episode had one of the things everybody criticised the last of series 4 for regarding the warp star and ostahagen key, which was the Master killing gun, which just got took of Martha and destroyed. I don't see why series 4 should be attacked for lazy writing then this be praised. Yes I know it wasn't really going to kill him, but the story banged on about it so much I expected more.

Also, this episode was where Freema's acting really started to slide and grate, and then would continue into season 4.

As for the plot, well, not much really happened until the end of The Sound Of Drums, and then it relied on the rather convenient "Paradox Machine" to continue the story, it's like they thought when writing "how can we get around this obvious plot hole" and then Russell said "I know, we'll just invent a paradox machine".

As for the Doctors Messiah like rise, well, that was just cringe worthy and quite frankly a disappointing resolution to his pre-aged situation, they may have established the Arc angel network, but every one in the world chanting the doctors name giving him the power to rise again, what a load of horse shit.

The final episodes of series 3 were just as guilty of the thing people knocked these last episodes of series 4 for, but at least the fun factor of the series 4 finales didn't merely rely on the acting ability of one actor, which was what happened with John Simm. Actually, that was unfair, it relied on two actors, Tennant and Simms chemistry at the end was fantastic.

Also Davros is a far more interesting character than the Master in any of his incarnations.

 

[Eejit]

I can't agree, loved the Master, but this episode had one of the things everybody criticised the last of series 4 for regarding the warp star and ostahagen key, which was the Master killing gun, which just got took of Martha and destroyed. I don't see why series 4 should be attacked for lazy writing then this be praised. Yes I know it wasn't really going to kill him, but the story banged on about it so much I expected more.

It was a fake, a cover to fool the Master, completely different from having actual weapons appear from nowhere only to be rendered useless in three seconds flat.

Also, this episode was where Freema's acting really started to slide and grate, and then would continue into season 4.

Disagree.

As for the plot, well, not much really happened until the end of The Sound Of Drums, and then it relied on the rather convenient "Paradox Machine" to continue the story, it's like they thought when writing "how can we get around this obvious plot hole" and then Russell said "I know, we'll just invent a paradox machine".

The rise of the Master happened. A bad guy predicting the Doctor's actions happened.
The Paradox machine tied into the entire 3-episode arc perfectly, it wasn't tacked on like some all-powerful donna ex control panel the Daleks failed to keep their prisoners away from. It's the only way that an army from the future could come back and kill their own ancestors without those bacteria-flying things from Fathers Day turning up.

As for the Doctors Messiah like rise, well, that was just cringe worthy and quite frankly a disappointing resolution to his pre-aged situation, they may have established the Arc angel network, but every one in the world chanting the doctors name giving him the power to rise again, what a load of horse shit.
It actually made sense, and was foreshadowed.
When did the Doctor ever say in season 4 finale "if only we could get to a Dalek control panel we could stop the entire invasion in a matter of seconds"? Nope, him and his Best Buddies all came up with different plans, none of which worked just so DoctorDonna (cheesy as hell) could step in and magic the bad guys away. Out of nowhere.

The final episodes of series 3 were just as guilty of the thing people knocked these last episodes of series 4 for, but at least the fun factor of the series 4 finales didn't merely rely on the acting ability of one actor, which was what happened with John Simm. Actually, that was unfair, it relied on two actors, Tennant and Simms chemistry at the end was fantastic.

As I've shown, it was nowhere near as guilty.
And the 'fun factor' of the series 4 finales depended on "I'm getting the band back together" sqeeeeishness for the fans. Of course, the band were eventually completely extraneous, but without them the episodes would have been boring to even more viewers.

Also Davros is a far more interesting character than the Master in any of his incarnations.

Nevah!