Email from Gabe. Re: Pay 2 Play
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Matrix
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Im not sayingyou guys are lying , look im new here, so i don't see this stuff all over the internet commonly, im used to big announcements on official sites. If im wrong then i apologize but imagine being in my shoes, why would they do that. Sure single is cheaper but also what if that doesnt sell that much and the Standard retail is only sold.
I aint saying your lying i just find it hard to believe an official representitve will release that much information as it seems a little early to. IMO.
D
Digipop
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Well, after reading the posts on here, it seems some people don't get it... I don't care if they charge for CS2 being stand alone, I'm still buying it, and I'm still buying HL2 with the Multiplayer/MOD support, just in case a free mod comes out, that I like.
MultiVaC
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Well, I think there should be a locked sticky saying exactly what we know about this stuff. Because this thread is just too long for anyone to read so we get people thinking they need to explain it even though it's already been explained and people who still don't get it because they don't want to go 27 pages of nonsense. Just put up a simple news announcement. There's really no problem, it's just like the delay. Everyone just gets misinformed, especially if they go to stupid PHL which is just a rumor factory. Speaking of PHL, wouldn't it be cool if one of the bonus things was the video Fragmaster dressed as Gordon passing out copies of HL2? Now THAT, would be worth a subscription to Steam, lol.
spitcodfry
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Well said, I vote for a sticky on this subject as well. How bout we get a mod in here to create one?
Feath
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I look at Steam as more of a database of Mods. You won't have to figure out where to download the mod from, it will just be available via Steam, you double click and there you are playing it. It mades playing mods a lot easier.
Valve is going to use Steam to be a distribution thing, yes. I know that they'll be able to offer third party content in the future.
The good thing about Steam is that it's free.
It's late, apologies for any incoherence.
EDIT: Very late post sorry, this was in reply to Stratagerm
Valve is going to use Steam to be a distribution thing, yes. I know that they'll be able to offer third party content in the future.
The good thing about Steam is that it's free.
It's late, apologies for any incoherence.
EDIT: Very late post sorry, this was in reply to Stratagerm
Feath
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http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5955
We're hoping that a mod will sticky that one.
Anwar
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How is it too long to read... its only 11 pages now and I had to read it all.
11 pages of big spaced sentences that are mostly short and use small words. Take maybe 5 minutes to read it all, unless you find this topic boring then I could understand.
11 pages of big spaced sentences that are mostly short and use small words. Take maybe 5 minutes to read it all, unless you find this topic boring then I could understand.
Matrix
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its not really about the box , its like all those single player cd's and work to seperatethe game from multi , thats like pointless imo but it could happen we'll see on setp 30th when its out. and if you guys are right im going to be shocked!
G
Geotpf
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Let's see here:
First, there's going to be three retail boxed versions of the game (SP only, SP + MP, SP + MP + goodies). There are three box covers, right? Gee, maybe each version of the game gets a different box cover...
Second, I hope the full version that is downloadable via Steam (not the subscription) is cheaper than the in-store cost for the same. Who in thier right mind would pay the same price but not get a box + CD + printed manual?
Third, Valve better have a WHOLE lot of content availible via Steam for it to be worth it. We are talking at THE VERY MINIMUM two or three full, complete games EVERY YEAR. Highly unlikely. Since 1998, Valve generated code has been Half Life, OpFor, Blue Shift, that outer space cowboy game that sucked (what was the name of it?-I forget), TFC, DMC, Ricochete, CS, NS, DoD, and a few other mods (which aren't really Valve generated, and were free). All that combined is not worth $500+, which would be the price of the new Steam subscription for that period of time. Even if you counting the mods that later became stand alone games, the total cost for somebody to buy them was maybe $100-200. I paid twenty or thirty bucks each for HL, OpFor, and Blue Shift, and ten bucks for the dumb cowboy game. That's about $100. Total. If it was five bucks a month, maybe. But ten? I'll pass, thank you very much.
First, there's going to be three retail boxed versions of the game (SP only, SP + MP, SP + MP + goodies). There are three box covers, right? Gee, maybe each version of the game gets a different box cover...
Second, I hope the full version that is downloadable via Steam (not the subscription) is cheaper than the in-store cost for the same. Who in thier right mind would pay the same price but not get a box + CD + printed manual?
Third, Valve better have a WHOLE lot of content availible via Steam for it to be worth it. We are talking at THE VERY MINIMUM two or three full, complete games EVERY YEAR. Highly unlikely. Since 1998, Valve generated code has been Half Life, OpFor, Blue Shift, that outer space cowboy game that sucked (what was the name of it?-I forget), TFC, DMC, Ricochete, CS, NS, DoD, and a few other mods (which aren't really Valve generated, and were free). All that combined is not worth $500+, which would be the price of the new Steam subscription for that period of time. Even if you counting the mods that later became stand alone games, the total cost for somebody to buy them was maybe $100-200. I paid twenty or thirty bucks each for HL, OpFor, and Blue Shift, and ten bucks for the dumb cowboy game. That's about $100. Total. If it was five bucks a month, maybe. But ten? I'll pass, thank you very much.
dscowboy
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I'm putting out a big thank you to FEATH, SILVER.FOX, LOGIC, AHNETIS, and everyone else on this thread who are keeping the truth alive, despite the massive tidal wave of ignorance, lies, rant-tantrums, misinformation and trolling that went on today, especially after the news broke on the gaming news sites.
We seriously need a locked sticky on this board that explains the whole thing in two or three sentences.
YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO SUBSCRIBE TO ANYTHING
YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY VALVE FOR COMMUNITY-DEVELOPED MODS
VALVE IS NOT "SCREWING YOU OVER"
THE MOD COMMUNITY IS NOT "GOING TO DIE"
Relax, it's all good news.
We seriously need a locked sticky on this board that explains the whole thing in two or three sentences.
YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO SUBSCRIBE TO ANYTHING
YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY VALVE FOR COMMUNITY-DEVELOPED MODS
VALVE IS NOT "SCREWING YOU OVER"
THE MOD COMMUNITY IS NOT "GOING TO DIE"
Relax, it's all good news.
Driftlight
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Wow, this thread moves fast. Just found this tonight and as a result, signed up for these forums (which I can't believe I just found).
Read the whole thread over the last half hour or so. A lot of you guys have good points and make perfect sense.
Others of you appear to be complete morons who should have never been allowed near a computer. Whatever.
Anyway, Valve's whole sales idea seems to be a good idea to me. Can't understand why so many people can't comprehend how this works. Valve (Or Gabe Newell at least) seems to know the gaming community pretty well. I've found that forum goers always appreciate personal attention.
Ah well. Keep up the good work, those of you who struggled to keep this sane.
Read the whole thread over the last half hour or so. A lot of you guys have good points and make perfect sense.
Others of you appear to be complete morons who should have never been allowed near a computer. Whatever.
Anyway, Valve's whole sales idea seems to be a good idea to me. Can't understand why so many people can't comprehend how this works. Valve (Or Gabe Newell at least) seems to know the gaming community pretty well. I've found that forum goers always appreciate personal attention.
Ah well. Keep up the good work, those of you who struggled to keep this sane.
spitcodfry
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The longest 27 days of my life
dscowboy
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It only confuses people that are too stubborn/illiterate to grasp the simple concept. Star Wars Galaxies has two different retail versions, I don't see anyone flipping out about that!
OMG, WHAT IF VALVE USES THE EXACT SAME BOX FOR ALL THREE VERSIONS?!?! WHAT IF I LOSE THE ABILITY TO READ PRICING LABLES?!?! WHAT IF THE SPECIAL EDITION HAS A BOMB IN IT!!? WHAT IF MY PANTS CATCH ON FIRE!?!
RakuraiTenjin
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Ah, this system sounds great!
I'll be buying the boxed Single/MP version from my satore, due to having a 56k, otherwise I would've done it via steam, both are fine to me, I've got no problem with them, it about evens out when you take everything into account.
The only thing that really needs some serious attention is the labelling at the stores. Other than that, people who dont play online aren't getting overcharged, theyre getting a great deal, so the people calling Valve greedy just because basically they charge for their games (Get it through your head, TEAM FORTRESS 2 IS A DIFFERENT GAME THAN HL2, JUST MADE BY THE SAME PEOPLE) It'll be Valve's third game branch (If they've sold any other stand alones besides HL and CS) and the people calling Valve greedy for selling the original CS-- There were many poeple who wanted ONLY cs, without having to buy HL itself, the CS you bought in stores would run WITHOUT HL installed, it was so people didnt have to pay 40 dollars extra for HL when they were only ever going to play CS Online, calling valve greedy for letting people get the exact things they wanted is retarded
I'll be buying the boxed Single/MP version from my satore, due to having a 56k, otherwise I would've done it via steam, both are fine to me, I've got no problem with them, it about evens out when you take everything into account.
The only thing that really needs some serious attention is the labelling at the stores. Other than that, people who dont play online aren't getting overcharged, theyre getting a great deal, so the people calling Valve greedy just because basically they charge for their games (Get it through your head, TEAM FORTRESS 2 IS A DIFFERENT GAME THAN HL2, JUST MADE BY THE SAME PEOPLE) It'll be Valve's third game branch (If they've sold any other stand alones besides HL and CS) and the people calling Valve greedy for selling the original CS-- There were many poeple who wanted ONLY cs, without having to buy HL itself, the CS you bought in stores would run WITHOUT HL installed, it was so people didnt have to pay 40 dollars extra for HL when they were only ever going to play CS Online, calling valve greedy for letting people get the exact things they wanted is retarded
UndeadScottsman
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Damn... I was hoping we could get another iteration of engines before this happened. Unfotuneatly, it looks like Valve is leading the way once again.
I'm guessing what has happened is that the game is now just too complex to be able to release stuff for free anymore. Even single maps and character models probably take so much time to develope that it's no longer viable to release them for completely free. Indeed, how many Quake3 maps can you make in the time it would take you to create a Half-Life 2 or Doom III map? Or many Quake 3 player models?
Here's what I'm guessing will happen.. You can either get the 10 dollar a month subscription, in which you pay 120 or so bucks a year, and wind up with everything Valve releases on Steam OR you can just buy what you want... The second option is more costly, however, if you buy everything..
$50.00 Half-Life 2
$ 1.99 New multiplayer map <-Mutliple releases
$ 3.99 New Character model <-Multiple releases
$ 1.99 New singleplayer map <-Multiple releases
$14.99 New Singleplayer mappack
$14.99 Multiplayer mod
$35.00 Half-Life 2 Expansion
$50.00 Team Fortress 2
That stuff adds up FAST, especialy if Valve funnles the money into employing more creative content people. If you know you're already going to be buying all of it crap that comes out, then get the subscription. However, if you're just going to get, say, the singleplayer or multiplayer stuff, then you could just buy those and forget about the other stuff. And due to the money generated by this, Valve will be able to employ people to produce more content than usual.
This could also provide some interesting avenues for Character models, now that I think about it. Only people who bought the model would be able to use it, but everyone would be able to see it thanks to Steam.
Hopefully I'm just being pessimistic and we'll still get stuff like maps and character models for free. And hopefully patches will ALWAYS remain free
And as for the singleplayer only version, I'll bet dollars to peso's it'll be a cd-only package that is on the bargain rack, whereas the normal version will come in those 3 collectors boxes and the DVD/Collectors version will come in the silver box.
One thing is for sure though, Gabe needs to quit releasing information like this through e-mail (Remember the Anti-Aliasing issue?) Press releases man! Press releases!
Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn
I'm guessing what has happened is that the game is now just too complex to be able to release stuff for free anymore. Even single maps and character models probably take so much time to develope that it's no longer viable to release them for completely free. Indeed, how many Quake3 maps can you make in the time it would take you to create a Half-Life 2 or Doom III map? Or many Quake 3 player models?
Here's what I'm guessing will happen.. You can either get the 10 dollar a month subscription, in which you pay 120 or so bucks a year, and wind up with everything Valve releases on Steam OR you can just buy what you want... The second option is more costly, however, if you buy everything..
$50.00 Half-Life 2
$ 1.99 New multiplayer map <-Mutliple releases
$ 3.99 New Character model <-Multiple releases
$ 1.99 New singleplayer map <-Multiple releases
$14.99 New Singleplayer mappack
$14.99 Multiplayer mod
$35.00 Half-Life 2 Expansion
$50.00 Team Fortress 2
That stuff adds up FAST, especialy if Valve funnles the money into employing more creative content people. If you know you're already going to be buying all of it crap that comes out, then get the subscription. However, if you're just going to get, say, the singleplayer or multiplayer stuff, then you could just buy those and forget about the other stuff. And due to the money generated by this, Valve will be able to employ people to produce more content than usual.
This could also provide some interesting avenues for Character models, now that I think about it. Only people who bought the model would be able to use it, but everyone would be able to see it thanks to Steam.
Hopefully I'm just being pessimistic and we'll still get stuff like maps and character models for free. And hopefully patches will ALWAYS remain free
And as for the singleplayer only version, I'll bet dollars to peso's it'll be a cd-only package that is on the bargain rack, whereas the normal version will come in those 3 collectors boxes and the DVD/Collectors version will come in the silver box.
One thing is for sure though, Gabe needs to quit releasing information like this through e-mail (Remember the Anti-Aliasing issue?)
Press releases man! Press releases!Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn
K
Kragoth
Guest
Ok...I can see some very fundamental flaws that Valve have in proceding the way they are.
Firstly, they are leaving it horribly late to really let people know what the 'exact' conditions are of each way of buying HL2. Single Player only is easy to understand. HL2 with multiplayer and MODS...(does this include CS2? oh yes it IS a mod for all you people who think otherwise, TF2 could actually be considered a mod now too because it's using source engine...but that's being technical) HL2 collectors edition...ok, and WHY am i going to buy this it has 'extras'...what extras!?? Last but not least STEAM...firstly $9.95 a month! gosh...we arn't made of money! I dont live in america so that's gonna work out to $20 a month for me assuming there's a good conversion and fees arn't too high. Oh, another thing! The only people that will be able to use this are people on broadband, this seems find for ppl in america, but i am guessing that well over 50% of your sales for HL1 are outside of america. I have broadband, but i'm capped to 3GB per month...I can't spend it all downloading my games. (Yes i know i dont have to subscribe...but that's not what i'm trying to point out so dont reply about it) But more importantly just how are you going to make it worth $10 / month? that's a lot of money every year compared to just buying the game... what really makes the subscription worth it? Cause really i'm only gonna want HL2 and CS2 so is there a point?
Personally, I cant believe that something this far from the norm is going to be used on a game that is pretty much guarenteed 10Mil copies to sell. I wouldn't mind betting it will be closer to 20Mil but hey...i'll be realistic. The problem really is the moral of what's happening. Soon we are all going to have to pay to play our games, we aren't buying a game anymore we are buying 'time' in the game. But oh well...I really hope it backfires so that in 20years time I can go out and buy HL5 and go home and play it not wait for a dl then pay to spend some time in there. I want to *own* my games.
I think I wouldn't be so much against this idea IF we had some clear explanations as to what the agreement is going to be, right now...all i can see are problems and annoying little messages like, "You are unable to play this MOD due to the fact you have not subscribed to STEAM" The day i get that message is the day I start spreading bad reports about Valve
I really wish software developers would stop being money hungry, and actually make software for people to enjoy, not for the money's sake...That's why good mods are so popular, they have been made for the people NOT the money
But...i know, most people's outlook on life can be summed up with...
"It's all about the money"
Goodbye, have a good day
I'll see yous all in HL2...where I can be wasted in another game
Firstly, they are leaving it horribly late to really let people know what the 'exact' conditions are of each way of buying HL2. Single Player only is easy to understand. HL2 with multiplayer and MODS...(does this include CS2? oh yes it IS a mod for all you people who think otherwise, TF2 could actually be considered a mod now too because it's using source engine...but that's being technical) HL2 collectors edition...ok, and WHY am i going to buy this it has 'extras'...what extras!?? Last but not least STEAM...firstly $9.95 a month! gosh...we arn't made of money! I dont live in america so that's gonna work out to $20 a month for me assuming there's a good conversion and fees arn't too high. Oh, another thing! The only people that will be able to use this are people on broadband, this seems find for ppl in america, but i am guessing that well over 50% of your sales for HL1 are outside of america. I have broadband, but i'm capped to 3GB per month...I can't spend it all downloading my games. (Yes i know i dont have to subscribe...but that's not what i'm trying to point out so dont reply about it
) But more importantly just how are you going to make it worth $10 / month? that's a lot of money every year compared to just buying the game... what really makes the subscription worth it? Cause really i'm only gonna want HL2 and CS2 so is there a point?Personally, I cant believe that something this far from the norm is going to be used on a game that is pretty much guarenteed 10Mil copies to sell. I wouldn't mind betting it will be closer to 20Mil but hey...i'll be realistic. The problem really is the moral of what's happening. Soon we are all going to have to pay to play our games, we aren't buying a game anymore we are buying 'time' in the game. But oh well...I really hope it backfires so that in 20years time I can go out and buy HL5 and go home and play it not wait for a dl then pay to spend some time in there. I want to *own* my games.
I think I wouldn't be so much against this idea IF we had some clear explanations as to what the agreement is going to be, right now...all i can see are problems and annoying little messages like, "You are unable to play this MOD due to the fact you have not subscribed to STEAM" The day i get that message is the day I start spreading bad reports about Valve
I really wish software developers would stop being money hungry, and actually make software for people to enjoy, not for the money's sake...That's why good mods are so popular, they have been made for the people NOT the money
But...i know, most people's outlook on life can be summed up with...
"It's all about the money"
Goodbye, have a good day
I'll see yous all in HL2...where I can be wasted in another game
Z|insane
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Kragoth
The 9.95 is for people who want access to everything without going to the store and buying it. READ HERE: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5955
Thats it simplified!!
The 9.95 is for people who want access to everything without going to the store and buying it. READ HERE: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5955
Thats it simplified!!
RakuraiTenjin
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The ONLY thing left relatively unclear is CS2
Everything else has been explained well by Gabe...
GAMES YOU CAN BUY
SEPTEMBER 30:
HALF LIFE 2
Singleplayer PHYSICAL COPY - 20 dollars or so I think (depending on vendor, but about that) Will have the HL2 singleplayer campaign
Single/Multi PHYSICAL COPY - 50 dollars or so I think (depending on vendor, but about that) Includes singleplayer and multiplayer access (everything needed for multi, accoridng to how I understand it) You can buy MODs as they come out (There are ALSO free ones, the point being there will probably be 3290842 times the amount of mods for HL1, SOME, note-- SOME!, developers will charge money for them, and they will sell in stores/the next mentioned plan)
STEAM Cached file - $9.99 a month. Mainly for people who are in it for the MOD's. The MODS that cost money will be downloaded by your steam as they come out. THIS system ends up being cheaper in the long run, because it's a steady 9.99 payment, instead of like 10 dollars for your mod when it comes out (NOTE: Not ALL the mods will cost money! I am speaking of the ones that do cost money though) So say if two mods come out in one month, you just saved ten bucks!
Free Mods - Download them for free, there will probably be more free ones than charged ones, but I'm sure the ones that cost money will be extra good (Will preview them of course to make sure)
-----------------
DATE TO BE ANNOUNCED
Team Fortress 2 (It's not a MOD, it's just a game on the same engine, calling it a mod is like saying HL was a mod of Quake)
Will have the stuff needed to play TF2
-----------------
UNKNOWN INFO - CS2, it isn't known if this will be a MOD (IE: You need Half Life 2 to play it) or if it will be a game of it's own (IE: You can buy CS2 and be able to play it right off) We will find out soon(hopefully)
Hope this clears some stuff up better, this has ALL been mentioned, but people seem to just ignore it for some reason. If I missed something or had somewhere (I doubt it) invalid info, please tell me
Everything else has been explained well by Gabe...
GAMES YOU CAN BUY
SEPTEMBER 30:
HALF LIFE 2
Singleplayer PHYSICAL COPY - 20 dollars or so I think (depending on vendor, but about that) Will have the HL2 singleplayer campaign
Single/Multi PHYSICAL COPY - 50 dollars or so I think (depending on vendor, but about that) Includes singleplayer and multiplayer access (everything needed for multi, accoridng to how I understand it) You can buy MODs as they come out (There are ALSO free ones, the point being there will probably be 3290842 times the amount of mods for HL1, SOME, note-- SOME!, developers will charge money for them, and they will sell in stores/the next mentioned plan)
STEAM Cached file - $9.99 a month. Mainly for people who are in it for the MOD's. The MODS that cost money will be downloaded by your steam as they come out. THIS system ends up being cheaper in the long run, because it's a steady 9.99 payment, instead of like 10 dollars for your mod when it comes out (NOTE: Not ALL the mods will cost money! I am speaking of the ones that do cost money though) So say if two mods come out in one month, you just saved ten bucks!
Free Mods - Download them for free, there will probably be more free ones than charged ones, but I'm sure the ones that cost money will be extra good (Will preview them of course to make sure)
-----------------
DATE TO BE ANNOUNCED
Team Fortress 2 (It's not a MOD, it's just a game on the same engine, calling it a mod is like saying HL was a mod of Quake)
Will have the stuff needed to play TF2
-----------------
UNKNOWN INFO - CS2, it isn't known if this will be a MOD (IE: You need Half Life 2 to play it) or if it will be a game of it's own (IE: You can buy CS2 and be able to play it right off) We will find out soon(hopefully)
Hope this clears some stuff up better, this has ALL been mentioned, but people seem to just ignore it for some reason. If I missed something or had somewhere (I doubt it) invalid info, please tell me
dscowboy
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If you 'subscribe' to Valve's products via Steam, you are subscribing to products you can buy in the store. Renting them through subscription is an option. What is the problem with having more options? It's not like there's a super double secret squirell version of HL2 you can only get if you subscribe.
Kamakiri
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If I didn't do it someone else would of. Infact I was suprised no one did. Unless Gabe chose the dood from Australia for a reply to the P2P.
Hey Matrix the whole email is real. I can forward this email to anyone who still has doubts but for a thread to stay up this long and the whole of the gaming community knows about it, I think Munro and even Gabe would close it down if it was fake.
Pretty simple logic really...
I still think HL2 is going to own. We will still be able to get the MP/SP version at a normal game price and still have heaps and heaps of fun. In my opinion nothing has really changed except having more options for peoples...
L
Logic
Guest
Well, it looks like the thread has settled down a bit. Hopefully by now anyone who was confused or worried about the new system realises that there's nothing to worry about, and that nobody is obligated to subscribe to anything.
I was expecting to come home and find an additional 20 pages on here since my last post, but hopefully the reason why that's not the case is that people are understanding the new pricing system. It's not complicated at all, but I can see how it could raise some confusion with some of the argument in this thread (ie what's real and what's not).
Hopefully everything is clear now.
I was expecting to come home and find an additional 20 pages on here since my last post, but hopefully the reason why that's not the case is that people are understanding the new pricing system. It's not complicated at all, but I can see how it could raise some confusion with some of the argument in this thread (ie what's real and what's not).
Hopefully everything is clear now.
H
halcyon
Guest
HL2 subscription does not make sense with current information
If the situation at release date will be as per Gabe's mail, then I'm a little confused about few things:
PREMISES
=======
In a normal subscription based game you buy the monthly fee to be able to play the game at all. No subscription, no game. Can't play online, can't play off-line.
In a normal subscription based game all the additions are to the one and only game you have (no MODS). Mostly fixes and very small additions though. You will get all fixes/additions available online, when you subscribe.
In a normal subscription based game, you have to buy additional shrinkwrap expansion packs that are not available on-line. When you buy the shrinkwrap expansion packs, you are able to play the game with those who have the same expansion packs. Fragmentation of the gaming community occurs, because not all buy the expansion packs. Expansion packs are not like MODs. They don't change the whole game, they just extend the original.
ASSUMPTIONS
===========
Now, Valve wants to release a subscription based Steam version and buy-in-the-store shrink wrap version without subscription.
They must provide bug fixes free of charge to the shrinkwrap version, or shrinkwrap buyers won't be able to play the game after the first bug fixes make various versions incompatible.
They must provide all main HL2 related additions free-of charge via steam or other ways of download to shrinkwrap buyers, or the HL2 multiplayer will fragment (I'm now excluding all MODS and separate games on top of HL2. Just talking about HL2 itself).
QUESTIONS
=========
Now, what is left over for monthly Steam subscribers that shrinkwrap buyers do not get are the MODS.
So, people are in effect giving $9.95 to Valve for "upcoming mods" that they don't know what they will be like, if they will like them and when they will come out.
Who knows when CS2, NS2, DoD2 and whatever will come out, whether they will be free to shrinkwrap buyers as well and whether it's worth paying every single month worth of free fixes that everybody else gets too. Just so that you can get the "free MODs" once they are released "sometime in the future".
And what if you get tired of the subscription and want to play just MOD X after 15 months. You've ponied up 150 dollars to Valve and once you unsubscribe you lose ALL access to ALL games you've bought (via the Steam cache)?
You have to pay another 50 dollars for the shrinkwrap version of HL2 and another XX dollars for the shrinkwrap version of your beloved MOD X you want to play on-line without subscription.
Now you could of course use that, say 80 dollars, for another 8 months of subscription, but if you intend to play that MOD only and a little longer than 8 months.
Problems like these (I'm sure others can come up with various similar oddities) are the biggest flaw in Valve's reasoning in my opinion.
Any way I look at it, with the current information available, it makes no sense to subscribe to Steam at 10 dollars a month. It's just financially not very wise. You are paying for 'something', perhaps even free that will be release 'sometime' in the future?
That's not just how the ordinary consumer mind or trade works.
People must have at least a rough idea what they are getting.
Otherwise it's like gambling.
The second thing is that Valve still think's CS/HL was only an American phenomenon and that they can run the servers/support/everything from the US.
It was painful enough to start playing HL mods years ago on-line, when the US servers were inaccessible all the time to foreign players.
Even today Steam is like crap for non-US users, slow, buggy and not reliable.
If I have any problems I have to make a cross-continental phone call and listen to phone music for 30 minutes at 5 dollars a minute (for phone calls).
Does not make sense.
And they expect me to subscribe to that for $9.95 / month, even though I can play online for free with single shrinkwrap purchase and still get all the necessary fixes/updates for the main game for free?
I'm sorry Valve guys, but that's not going to happen.
You'll have to do a LOT better in terms of marketing your service, because the way I look at it, the only reason it was built was to make more money to you, without giving enough additional benefits to the consumer in return. Or alternatively, you've done a really poor job at explaing yourself and your products.
I will buy HL2 MP shrinkwrap and wait for release/reviews of shrinkwrap versions of MP CS2 and whatever to make my decision whether to buy them. In the mean time, others will pay 10 dollars / month to Valve for what exactly? Ability to play online? Ability to get updates that shrinkwrap buyers also must get for free, for the whole online community of the game to function at all.
FUTURE?
======
The only way they can make even 50% of the users Steam subscribers is going to be by releasing ONLY on-line versions and not off-line versions at all.
Then again, I'm not sure the world is ready for that. HL2 or not. Valve or not.
I'm pretty sure this is their long time goal. They want to skip Vivendi/Sierra altogether and just run Steam based delivery services to themselves and all the MOD makers, charging fees for the MOD makers, because MOD makers use their Steam platform for the delivery. Reintermediation through disintermediation. Stir up the value chain.
Nice business plan, but I don't think it makes sense to the customers with the current offerings.
To me, it looks like the boys at Valve got a little bit too greedy and weren't content enough with the fact that the MOD community kept their main shrinwrap box alive and selling well through all these years. It's the MOD makers who enable them to work on the HL2 all these years. That's what really sold the game and gave these guys the luxury to work secretly on HL2 without any extra financial pressure of having to do rehash version of HL just to keep themselves afloat.
Now they also want to charge a monthly fee and get in on the MOD community money making action as well?
Anyway I look at it, it sure doesn't look good to ordinary customers like myself.
But it's their business. Let's see how this all plays out in months to come. It could be a major disaster as well, even though I'm sure HL2 shrinkwrap package will sell by tons.
Food for thought.
If the situation at release date will be as per Gabe's mail, then I'm a little confused about few things:
PREMISES
=======
In a normal subscription based game you buy the monthly fee to be able to play the game at all. No subscription, no game. Can't play online, can't play off-line.
In a normal subscription based game all the additions are to the one and only game you have (no MODS). Mostly fixes and very small additions though. You will get all fixes/additions available online, when you subscribe.
In a normal subscription based game, you have to buy additional shrinkwrap expansion packs that are not available on-line. When you buy the shrinkwrap expansion packs, you are able to play the game with those who have the same expansion packs. Fragmentation of the gaming community occurs, because not all buy the expansion packs. Expansion packs are not like MODs. They don't change the whole game, they just extend the original.
ASSUMPTIONS
===========
Now, Valve wants to release a subscription based Steam version and buy-in-the-store shrink wrap version without subscription.
They must provide bug fixes free of charge to the shrinkwrap version, or shrinkwrap buyers won't be able to play the game after the first bug fixes make various versions incompatible.
They must provide all main HL2 related additions free-of charge via steam or other ways of download to shrinkwrap buyers, or the HL2 multiplayer will fragment (I'm now excluding all MODS and separate games on top of HL2. Just talking about HL2 itself).
QUESTIONS
=========
Now, what is left over for monthly Steam subscribers that shrinkwrap buyers do not get are the MODS.
So, people are in effect giving $9.95 to Valve for "upcoming mods" that they don't know what they will be like, if they will like them and when they will come out.
Who knows when CS2, NS2, DoD2 and whatever will come out, whether they will be free to shrinkwrap buyers as well and whether it's worth paying every single month worth of free fixes that everybody else gets too. Just so that you can get the "free MODs" once they are released "sometime in the future".
And what if you get tired of the subscription and want to play just MOD X after 15 months. You've ponied up 150 dollars to Valve and once you unsubscribe you lose ALL access to ALL games you've bought (via the Steam cache)?
You have to pay another 50 dollars for the shrinkwrap version of HL2 and another XX dollars for the shrinkwrap version of your beloved MOD X you want to play on-line without subscription.
Now you could of course use that, say 80 dollars, for another 8 months of subscription, but if you intend to play that MOD only and a little longer than 8 months.
Problems like these (I'm sure others can come up with various similar oddities) are the biggest flaw in Valve's reasoning in my opinion.
Any way I look at it, with the current information available, it makes no sense to subscribe to Steam at 10 dollars a month. It's just financially not very wise. You are paying for 'something', perhaps even free that will be release 'sometime' in the future?
That's not just how the ordinary consumer mind or trade works.
People must have at least a rough idea what they are getting.
Otherwise it's like gambling.
The second thing is that Valve still think's CS/HL was only an American phenomenon and that they can run the servers/support/everything from the US.
It was painful enough to start playing HL mods years ago on-line, when the US servers were inaccessible all the time to foreign players.
Even today Steam is like crap for non-US users, slow, buggy and not reliable.
If I have any problems I have to make a cross-continental phone call and listen to phone music for 30 minutes at 5 dollars a minute (for phone calls).
Does not make sense.
And they expect me to subscribe to that for $9.95 / month, even though I can play online for free with single shrinkwrap purchase and still get all the necessary fixes/updates for the main game for free?
I'm sorry Valve guys, but that's not going to happen.
You'll have to do a LOT better in terms of marketing your service, because the way I look at it, the only reason it was built was to make more money to you, without giving enough additional benefits to the consumer in return. Or alternatively, you've done a really poor job at explaing yourself and your products.
I will buy HL2 MP shrinkwrap and wait for release/reviews of shrinkwrap versions of MP CS2 and whatever to make my decision whether to buy them. In the mean time, others will pay 10 dollars / month to Valve for what exactly? Ability to play online? Ability to get updates that shrinkwrap buyers also must get for free, for the whole online community of the game to function at all.
FUTURE?
======
The only way they can make even 50% of the users Steam subscribers is going to be by releasing ONLY on-line versions and not off-line versions at all.
Then again, I'm not sure the world is ready for that. HL2 or not. Valve or not.
I'm pretty sure this is their long time goal. They want to skip Vivendi/Sierra altogether and just run Steam based delivery services to themselves and all the MOD makers, charging fees for the MOD makers, because MOD makers use their Steam platform for the delivery. Reintermediation through disintermediation. Stir up the value chain.
Nice business plan, but I don't think it makes sense to the customers with the current offerings.
To me, it looks like the boys at Valve got a little bit too greedy and weren't content enough with the fact that the MOD community kept their main shrinwrap box alive and selling well through all these years. It's the MOD makers who enable them to work on the HL2 all these years. That's what really sold the game and gave these guys the luxury to work secretly on HL2 without any extra financial pressure of having to do rehash version of HL just to keep themselves afloat.
Now they also want to charge a monthly fee and get in on the MOD community money making action as well?
Anyway I look at it, it sure doesn't look good to ordinary customers like myself.
But it's their business. Let's see how this all plays out in months to come. It could be a major disaster as well, even though I'm sure HL2 shrinkwrap package will sell by tons.
Food for thought.
Fuzzy
Newbie
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Man, that is one fat post. Maybe you should just summarise it at the end or something.
In fact, that is longer than my mid semester exam
Hey Kamakiri, good to see another aussie on here
Do you have any idea how much HL2 sp/mp normal version will cost from a store in aus? I need to start saving up
In fact, that is longer than my mid semester exam
Hey Kamakiri, good to see another aussie on here
Do you have any idea how much HL2 sp/mp normal version will cost from a store in aus? I need to start saving up
Kamakiri
Spy
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- Jul 5, 2003
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Originally posted by Fuzzy
Man, that is one fat post. Maybe you should just summarise it at the end or something.
In fact, that is longer than my mid semester exam
Hey Kamakiri, good to see another aussie on here
Do you have any idea how much HL2 sp/mp normal version will cost from a store in aus? I need to start saving up
Hello fellow Aussie.
Recently I went into EB and the current HL2 price was $100AU. This will be the MP/SP version. The SP only version would be cheaper.
I'm guessing the SP/MP Collectors edition would be about $120-$130. But that is just guessing. I'm getting the collectors because it comes in DVD format...
L
Logic
Guest
In reply to that LONG post:
I think you're misunderstanding. There is no "subscription version" of HL2. HL2 is not a subscription game. HL2 is merely one of the things you will get if you subscribe. Along with it, you get everything else valve has to offer.
Customers who purchase the standard retail version (the one with single player, multiplayer and mod capability) will have access to all free mods, as well as all patches and updates, and any extra content that Valve don't want to charge extra for. Subscribers on the other hand, will get everything, free or not, instantly without having to pay extra, since it will all be covered in their fee.
Now obviously there is the question of how many products and how much content, that normal customers will have to pay for, will be released to make subscription a good option. Until more information is released, we don't know, but Valve wouldn't be offering a subscription service that has nothing to offer. I'm sure they have plenty of things planned.
Edit: btw another Aussie here :cheers:
I think you're misunderstanding. There is no "subscription version" of HL2. HL2 is not a subscription game. HL2 is merely one of the things you will get if you subscribe. Along with it, you get everything else valve has to offer.
Customers who purchase the standard retail version (the one with single player, multiplayer and mod capability) will have access to all free mods, as well as all patches and updates, and any extra content that Valve don't want to charge extra for. Subscribers on the other hand, will get everything, free or not, instantly without having to pay extra, since it will all be covered in their fee.
Now obviously there is the question of how many products and how much content, that normal customers will have to pay for, will be released to make subscription a good option. Until more information is released, we don't know, but Valve wouldn't be offering a subscription service that has nothing to offer. I'm sure they have plenty of things planned.
Edit: btw another Aussie here :cheers:
L
Logic
Guest
lol..
Actually, on the whole games haven't changed in price. I still see many games released for $89.95 AU, which has been pretty standard for years. I guess some have gone up to 99, but not the majority.
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