Fighting in HL2

[Warbie]

This is the one aspect of HL2 that worries me (based on HL and the recent e3 footage)

In shootouts it doesn't appear asthough bullets are hitting the enemy, there's little/no reaction (other than a puff of red smoke, which isn't really good enough anymore). The absence of feedback can really detract from the experience. The weapons feel weak and as a result you do too.

It'd be so much more satisfying to plug a bad guy in the shoulder and have him spin round 90 degrees. At least make him flinch, maybe a 'urgh' noise too (at the moment it just looks silly) There's nothing worse than shooting a moving enemy and for them to carry on as though nothing happened.

Take a leaf from Golden Eye/Perfect Dark Valve \o/ Shoot a guy in the foot and he's hopping about and cursing, then limps away. Models react to the impact ('I got one pa'!!) Simple, extremely effective - it looks and feels great.

Hl2 looks set to blow us away with it's amazing visuals, story and strong sense of immersion. It wouldn't hurt to make the fighting great too (not saying it won't be good - but the footage alone makes combat look average at best :/)


//edit - this also grates in online gaming (although it's obviously more complicated in this case) In the latest version of ET Pro (a competition mod for Enemy Territory) you can now enable hit sounds. Basically, a tiny beep for a body shots and a ting for when you hit the enemies helmet/head. It doesn't sound like much, but this really makes the game more satisfying to play. So much so that I refuse to play on servers that don't support ET Pro. Of course I wouldn't recommend this type of feedback for HL2 - but the principle is the same.

 

[Rico]

Well the problem with flinch animations has been discussed in another thread, although I can't remember the URL. However the main flaw with it was that if for example you kept on shooting a combine with an MP5 and he just flinched everywhere it would be too easy to kill him as he would be unable to shoot back. I think a small amount of flinching would be good, make it satisfying but also give enemies the ability to fight back. Is it possible? I don't know but Valve does.

 

[Warbie]

Well the problem with flinch animations has been discussed in another thread, although I can't remember the URL. However the main flaw with it was that if for example you kept on shooting a combine with an MP5 and he just flinched everywhere it would be too easy to kill him as he would be unable to shoot back. I think a small amount of flinching would be good, make it satisfying but also give enemies the ability to fight back. Is it possible? I don't know but Valve does.

I'm sure there's a way to implement it - other games have. Even if it is just a tiny flinch accompanied with an appropriate sound. It doesn't have to change the gameplay in any way.

//edit (although that wouldn't hurt - the fighting was fine for HL ........ but it's time to move on. Look how old Golden Eye is. It still has the best combat of any single player FPS, imo)

 

[Rico]

Valve stated they would have hit animations I think. I'm sure its just one of the small details they have left to polish before release.

 

[theotherguy]

They said that it supported keyframe blending, which is physically simulated flinching, thisis a feature of the havok physics engine, which the half-life 2 physics engine is based off of

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Yes we've discussed it but i think it needs more discussion.

A blood spray is ok, but to get the full effect that your actually carrying a powerful gun you need the characters to flinch. They need to acnkowledge that a bullet travelling at insane speeds has just penetrated their flesh.

Kill satisfaction is a huge part of computer gaming and without flinching it's going to be sub-par IMO.

 

[Warbie]

They said that it supported keyframe blending, which is physically simulated flinching, thisis a feature of the havok physics engine, which the half-life 2 physics engine is based off of

If they have it was absent from the e3 footage.

Have another look at the vids again. Everytrhing looks fantastic - untill the fighting starts.


//edit - just had a look at last years e3 footage - the bit where Gordon is shooting the little mounted machine gun. A few shots and it leans over, looks like it'll fall .... then gravity takes over and it rights itself. Loads of shots and the gun topples over. That stuff is great! \o/ You can 'feel' power of your weapon. Then you shoot a bad guy and your gun suddenly starts shooting paintballs

 

[Ashbery76]

When a real human is machine gunned, they don't fly around the room, they barely move apart from falling down.

 

[Warbie]

When a real human is machine gunned, they don't fly around the room, they barely move apart from falling down.

They damn well don't stand still asthough they've been hit by a spit ball tho do they?

Noone said, or wants, the enemy to 'fly around the room' when hit by a bullet. They do want them to react tho.

 

[|Link|]

They damn well don't stand still asthough they've been hit by a spit ball tho do they?

I wouldnt stand still if I was hit by a spitball I would fall to my kneez then find the ****er that did it and kick his ass!!

 

[Scapegoat]

About the flinching making the game much easier - generally I think that a single combine shouldn't prove much trouble, whereas when they are in groups they are the most dangerous. I don't think you could keep up shooting every solder in a squad of 10 a once, do you?

 

[Brian Damage]

Well, the zombie in the E3 2004 trailer flinches when hit by a barrel...

 

[Duracell]

Well, the zombie in the E3 2004 trailer flinches when hit by a barrel...

hrm, are you sure? He just seemed to flinch because of a animation glitch
:|

 

[fuzzy_aus]

You can 'feel' power of your weapon. Then you shoot a bad guy and your gun suddenly starts shooting paintballs

YES!!! I agree 100% with what you are saying Warbie. That is one of the MAIN things with FPS's. You need to really feel like you are shooting something, it needs to react to what you do.

This is why I feel things like 'hit decals' are so important. When you fire a gun, you need to feel it's done something; sparks, holes, dust flying from walls, its all good. I strongly suggest you email Gabe with a well thought out letter about this topic, it really is crucial. They may already have such a thing implemented, just not shown in the E3 demos, but if they don't, then they are making a big mistake.

Fuzzy

 

[Brian Damage]

Doesn't look like any sort of animation glitch I've ever seen... the zombie kind of tenses up and holds the arm that got hit up against his body. Looks like he's in agony.

 

[NeLi]

I said it in the other thread, and I'll say it here too. FarCry had flinching, and in many situations, the enemies couldn't fire back at you at all, which, of course, took a lot of fun out of certain situations.

...And yes, you could take on a squad of 5+ enemies if you had the P90 or shotgun equiped, and they would just stand there, flinching, trying to run away, and then dying.

Unless you played at a very hard difficulty, FarCry was a very easy game. (except the very last level)

 

[Axyon]

Doesn't look like any sort of animation glitch I've ever seen... the zombie kind of tenses up and holds the arm that got hit up against his body. Looks like he's in agony.

Gotta agree. It certainly looks like he's retracted it back to try and protect it.

 

[Antic2]

just had a look at last years e3 footage - the bit where Gordon is shooting the little mounted machine gun. A few shots and it leans over, looks like it'll fall .... then gravity takes over and it rights itself. Loads of shots and the gun topples over. That stuff is great! \o/ You can 'feel' power of your weapon. Then you shoot a bad guy and your gun suddenly starts shooting paintballs

Not just that - take it a step further... if AI is supposed to be so advanced in HL2, why don't the soldiers react to the such a basic instinct as self-preservation and run for cover?

*NO* game does this right now. I don't mean the new trendy thing now, where enemies always try to find cover to shoot from. I mean the AI saying to itself, f*ck me, I'm getting asswhipped, get me outta here!

Or what about the odd character going ballistic and charging you while you're looking the other way?

Or beyond flinching, what about falling down when they get hit badly, crawling away or desperately trying to defend themselves? Or, who would have thought it, freak out, hold up their hands and surrender to your superior schwartz?

There are SO many options available to game designers about how enemies react, which for some reason they just don't do! Imagine seeing just one dude out of a group of soldiers turning tail and running... perhaps he's a young recruit in his first firefight, whatever.... it all adds to the realism!

 

[NeLi]

They did that with the scientists in HL1. You shot them, and they started running or acting odd or whatever.

 

[Antic2]

They did that with the scientists in HL1. You shot them, and they started running or acting odd or whatever.

If you shoot someone who is only wearing a frock, they will scream, bleed and die, not run up and down or act a bit odd.

It's an interesting point about how the games are becoming more realistic and immersive, and yet shooting someone really doesn't seem like such a big deal.

I'd love to see a game in which shooting a soldier once in the leg drops them in agony, and you get more of a feel for how much of a real decision it much be, especially for Gordon the scientist, to be in the situation he's in.

Or is that a bit too confronting for a game?

 

[fuzzy_aus]

Not just that - take it a step further... if AI is supposed to be so advanced in HL2, why don't the soldiers react to the such a basic instinct as self-preservation and run for cover?

*NO* game does this right now. I don't mean the new trendy thing now, where enemies always try to find cover to shoot from. I mean the AI saying to itself, f*ck me, I'm getting asswhipped, get me outta here!

Or what about the odd character going ballistic and charging you while you're looking the other way?

Or beyond flinching, what about falling down when they get hit badly, crawling away or desperately trying to defend themselves? Or, who would have thought it, freak out, hold up their hands and surrender to your superior schwartz?

There are SO many options available to game designers about how enemies react, which for some reason they just don't do! Imagine seeing just one dude out of a group of soldiers turning tail and running... perhaps he's a young recruit in his first firefight, whatever.... it all adds to the realism!

There are some damn good ideas in there. It's a very good point about AI these days, they don't act like real people(even if they arent human/whatever). If it felt more human it would make games much more immersive.

 

[Warbie]

^ I agree Antic2.

Without trying to sound like a broken record, Perfect Dark implemented a few of these ideas already.

Guns could be shot out of ppls hands and they'd pretend to surrender - only to whip out a side arm when your attention was elsewhere, or run and pick it up again. Injured enemy ran/limped away etc etc.

On one occasion I shot a guard in the head with a silenced pistol. His head juddered back in a convining fashion and he slid down the wall, ending up in a sitting position. Then I ran off and hid, incase someone had noticed. After a short while one of his compadres came around the corner - noticed his body and ran towards it. Kneeling down and staring at his dead mate I clearly heard "he was my best friend" in a sad tone XD. Another shot later and he joined his mate on the floor - but this time I heard a shout "you bitch" as a 3rd bad guy came running around the corner.

For all the gfx and super 'AI' pcs are meant to be capable of these days, not one pc FPS has come anyway near recreating that moment for me (which is pretty crappy when you think aboutit :/).

There are so many neat little touches that Valve (and other companies) could add to the fighting which'd make the whole experience far more engaging.

 

[fuzzy_aus]

You shuold so become a mod leader Warbie, you've got all the right ideas.

 

[jonnyapps]

yeah i agree with all of the comments in this thread. Must be a hard job to balance the implementation of flinching but it's definitely needed. Perfect Dark was awesome for its enemies reactions.

I'm pleased to see we've got momentum for ragdoll deaths now. One thing that annoyed me about raven shield was the lack of this.

One problem with this idea of a flinching enemy is that if we implement it surely we need to implement it on Gordon as well? This could become very frustrating. I think the frustration is in the fact that the game's not meant to be realistic so a game with a one shot one kill kind of basis would be better to implement this idea. Such games are always won based on who squeezes the trigger in the right direction first. This way it doesn't matter if you're impeded by flinching to grasp your arm - if you're shot in the arm you can expect one between the eyes shortly after. If not then you're gonna struggle to aim that shooter and'll probably bleed to death.

 

[umop]

I completely agree with ya Warbie, and I would be disappointed if Valve decided to leave out flinching in HL2. Did anyone email them yet asking if this was going to be implemented or anything?

 

[Brian Damage]

I agree, anything that makes the AI seem more... alive is a good thing.

I've always wanted, for instance, an AI enemy that goes "Ooops!" when it shoots one of its own team, or "Ohhh, shit..." when it accidentally bounces a grenade into its own face...

 

[Warbie]

One problem with this idea of a flinching enemy is that if we implement it surely we need to implement it on Gordon as well?

Naw - why would we need that? ..... Perfect Dark doesn't.

Hit animations would cause problems with online play - but in single player it's all good, and doesn't need to mess with the gameplay.

How about enemies pleading for their life :> "I have a wife and kids, you can have them"! "I'll give you anything you want" *starts to wail and kiss me feet*

Or

"I'll see you in hell you *!%&"

Probably wouldn't go down to well with various parenting commities tho heh

"HL2 turned my son into a serial killer"!!!11

 

[Stormy]

i think they pribly will when you shoot them with the bigger guns, the SMG probly wont do it much, if its ne thing like the origanal its ot that powerful but its really rapid fire. They will probly go flying when you shoot them with the uber 6 shooter or the shotgun.

 

[Brian Damage]

Gordon's viewpoint does waver when hit by a zombie in the docks vid... Is that flinch-like, d'you guys think?

 

[Antic2]

Gordon's viewpoint does waver when hit by a zombie in the docks vid... Is that flinch-like, d'you guys think?

Yeah, that would do... like the "blurring" effect in Far Cry when you get hit, it's a good challenge to keep aiming straight, which gives the effect of being distracted by actually going "ouch!"

I don't see what's wrong with an enemy flinching and not being able to shoot back for a second... would help a great deal in group situations. As would the entire group being stunned for a few seconds by a grenade blast, even if only one or two of them actually copped it... could buy you time to grab some better cover or pop off a couple of the others.

That's a good question... do enemies get stunned by nearby grenades? The demo of "Stalker" shows how shockwaves work... hopefully HL2 also introduces shockwaves for explosions...?

 

[Darkknighttt]

dont think itll introduce that.

 

[-Biohazard]

I agree, anything that makes the AI seem more... alive is a good thing.

I've always wanted, for instance, an AI enemy that goes "Ooops!" when it shoots one of its own team, or "Ohhh, shit..." when it accidentally bounces a grenade into its own face...

ive played halo numerous time and have had buddies shoot ME and say "oops my bad, that was me" and things similar to that. i really hope hl2 has some of the thing discussed in this thread......

 

[Nozra]

I believe in what u guys say - attempting not to repeat u guys...

Not only must there be convincing damage taken on the enemy side but on the player side as well, to give a fear factor to being shot. it's underdramatized.

That having been said, to address the whole issue about flinching being a problem in firefights making games overly easy/lacking in hard gameplay. It can be corrected in an idea that HALO:Combat Evolved attempted to bring to the gaming industry. When the "Elite" was downed in Halo it kept shooting as if to have its finger paralyzed and pressed onto the trigger. The idea im trying to suggest is that even if u shoot a guard and it has a 'pained' reaction, it doesnt stop him from firing back. So my suggestion to valve would be, insert the flinching, but have them fire back w/ one hand and diminished accuracy or something. That'd be an interesting twist - instead of just taking the sadistic role of kicking back and watching someone's guts spill out, why not still have the fear that they are still capable of damage?

It's crude, but its a possible answer to some inqueries about this sorta thing. It shouldn't be that hard to model either. just have them grope their stomache, or arm and have 1 hand still down on the weapon. Of course the variable would be circumstancial. Headshots, or Weapon disarmament (via shooting them in the hand) and many other ideas can be combined with this one.

Just a thought
-my first post here!

 

[Antic2]

ive played halo numerous time and have had buddies shoot ME and say "oops my bad, that was me" and things similar to that. i really hope hl2 has some of the thing discussed in this thread......

Yeah that helped make the game enjoyable.. lots of feedback. However, if I got shot by a comrade in battle, I hope they'd say more than "oops"... maybe offer me their last pack of cigs or something.

 

[Dsty2001]

An Mp5 isn't going to knock somebody around, instead most likely the bullets will go through them and all they will do is flinch a little. Physics at work people...physics at work

 

[Antic2]

So my suggestion to valve would be, insert the flinching, but have them fire back w/ one hand and diminished accuracy or something.

That's probably fairly realistic... if you're hit badly, you'd either buckle in shock, or have enough brains to retreat while giving as much random covering fire as possible. Enemies which are hurt too badly should not be able to continue fighting.

After a firefight, there should be at least some dudes lying around in pain, groaning... either you give em mercy (ie. pop em one) or leave them.

Some might still able to take a desparate pot shot at you while you're not looking. This would really add to the dark atmosphere, which is what HL2 is trying to create.

Sounds like Perfect Dark did this sort of thing... gotta check that one out.

 

[Antic2]

An Mp5 isn't going to knock somebody around, instead most likely the bullets will go through them and all they will do is flinch a little. Physics at work people...physics at work

...along with the facial expression of someone rather surprised to find themselves shot, before they expire and fall over.

I know it's morbid but ragdoll deaths, while being the next cool thing, just don't have the character and entertainment factor of a few different, well-scripted death performances.

 

[daveodeth]

Well the problem with flinch animations has been discussed in another thread, although I can't remember the URL. However the main flaw with it was that if for example you kept on shooting a combine with an MP5 and he just flinched everywhere it would be too easy to kill him as he would be unable to shoot back. I think a small amount of flinching would be good, make it satisfying but also give enemies the ability to fight back. Is it possible? I don't know but Valve does.

that was the best thing about Goldeneye though if you were clever about who you shoot you could get through the section without being shot yourself. To me it's a far better game mechanic that means you can get through totally unhurt(which is why i think i loved doom so much), than a game where it's a case of who can spit out the most bullets first in a tit for tat contest of attrition.

 

[Darkknighttt]

ya it makes you feel way more liek a "hero" if the enemy realistically dies adn stuff when you shoot them.

 

[Nozra]

ya it makes you feel way more liek a "hero" if the enemy realistically dies adn stuff when you shoot them.


I would disagree, when u see a painful death and maybe mourning or agony from others around u in an ambience of dark lighting and the barrel of ur gun is smoking i'd feel bad. it'd add controversy and suspense, maybe these guys were just following orders...

in any case, i'd like to see my idea and many of these other ones implemented