Fighting in HL2

i think that if you shoot an enemy and they flinch, when you get shot you should flinch too. that's only fair.

I guess things like flinching should be enabled or disabled for different difficulty settings. So like on the hardest of settings the enemies dont flinch at all, or, both player and enemy flinch when hit.

Reaction shots are about realism though so for a game like Goldeneye it's fine but for HL2 i don't think it's neccessary.


Death animations area must.
 
Esquire said:
i think that if you shoot an enemy and they flinch, when you get shot you should flinch too. that's only fair.

I guess things like flinching should be enabled or disabled for different difficulty settings. So like on the hardest of settings the enemies dont flinch at all, or, both player and enemy flinch when hit.

Reaction shots are about realism though so for a game like Goldeneye it's fine but for HL2 i don't think it's neccessary.


Death animations area must.
Click to expand...


What's fair got to do with it? Gordon has far more health than most bad guys. He's also completely out numbered. Is this 'fair'?, of course not. Does that matter?, of course not :) This is a game after all. There's no reason for reactions of this type to not be included.

This isn't about realism - it's about consistency. When you shoot an object in the game world you have certain expectations as to how it will react. You will also expect most objects in the game to follow the same basic rules, 'If I can move a gun turret by shooting it why can't I move a person'? Without consistancy the game world can become less believable, less 'real', and as a result the experience isn't as immersive.

Or forget all that waffle I just wrote - it's so much cooler when it 'feels' like you've hit the bad guy. We need feedback - that's all a video game really is when you think about it. I like my guns to 'feel' super hard \o/ and my bad guys to fear my wrath!. Not dance infront of me and occasioanlly fall down (no matter how well animated the falling down bit is)
 
Warbie said:
What's fair got to do with it? Gordon has far more health than most bad guys. He's also completely out numbered. Is this 'fair'?, of course not. Does that matter?, of course not :) This is a game after all. There's no reason for reactions of this type to not be included.

This isn't about realism - it's about consistency. When you shoot an object in the game world you have certain expectations as to how it will react. You will also expect most objects in the game to follow the same basic rules, 'If I can move a gun turret by shooting it why can't I move a person'? Without consistancy the game world can become less believable, less 'real', and as a result the experience isn't as immersive.

Or forget all that waffle I just wrote - it's so much cooler when it 'feels' like you've hit the bad guy. We need feedback - that's all a video game really is when you think about it. I like my guns to 'feel' super hard \o/ and my bad guys to fear my wrath!. Not dance infront of me and occasioanlly fall down (no matter how well animated the falling down bit is)
Click to expand...

Yea. Coolness and consistancy. You look at the E3 2004 video where he shoots the mounted Tau gun at a Combine soldier. Two blasts go straight into him - no reaction.

Go back to E3 2003 when he shoots and kills a combine soldier with the Tau gun. He goes flying back with great force. Just doesnt seem right if you shoot a guy twice as if its nothing and then when he dies he goes flying back.
 
Watching the gunfights in the buggy driving clip (~5:40 min), it looks like the guards are not able to fire back when they are being shot. This could mean that Valve have the guards stunned a bit when shot and either haven't added the flinching effect or are leaving it like that.
 
If they made enemys flinch then there would be know challenge, you'd put em down b4 they even got a shot off.
 
In Call of Chulthu : Dark Corners of the Earth (?), if you shot the enemy, it was realistic, they'd hobble on 1 leg until finding a safe place they could hide and rest from you in. If you broke your arm, your shots would go wild, and the chance of hitting something would go down drastically. That's some extreme examples, but if HL2 hasn't got some sort of "Enemy Shot Response" , I'll be sorely disappointed (And then I'll mod it in :p)
 
Cool thread, with some nice ideas.

Regarding NPCs valuing their lives, I think we've got some evidence of that for your allies in the game. During the Barricade video last year, they seemed concerned about hiding behind cover. During the Strider fights they run and scream a good bit, and according to that recent bit of news, they will refuse to follow your orders if they think it will get them killed.

Perhaps the Combine soldiers don't value their lives quite as much. That tends to go with the whole faceless enemy soldiers cliche.

I agree that one aspect of AI that is sorely needed is threat analysis. Almost every enemy in every game fights to the death. When you've killed 50 of their buddies and there is only 1 left, you'd think he'd either run or surrender.

However, if I was faced with enemies who plead for their lives, I don't think I could bring myself to kill them. It's probably good to keep the killing "sanitized" to an extent.
 
this is true, it is concievably possible that VALVe comes up with a convincing story how the combines undergone gene therapy to ignore pain, or had no sense of individualism because of propaganda and militarized collective brainwashing. Maybe they can make us believe.

But if i had to choose between a convincing story and actually seeing a reaction to the pain, i'd choose the reaction.
 
Perhaps the Combine are pumped full of painkillers ?
That'd be a LAME way for Valve to explain about the "missing hit reactions" ......
 
TriggerHappy said:
However, if I was faced with enemies who plead for their lives, I don't think I could bring myself to kill them. It's probably good to keep the killing "sanitized" to an extent.
Click to expand...
i dont think sanity or even lack there of is running through your brain while built and bred soldier/aliens are taking over your plant and putting you in a lock down state and constantly harrasing you and or killing other human beings.


Nozra, seriously reconsider your trivial and childish comment, you would really take a small hit detection animation over a very good story? if so, you suck a**
 
Impulse147 said:
If they made enemys flinch then there would be know challenge, you'd put em down b4 they even got a shot off.
Click to expand...

thats the idea, you make your game around the fact you can stop them shooting you.
 
Impulse147 said:
If they made enemys flinch then there would be know challenge, you'd put em down b4 they even got a shot off.
Click to expand...

That depends on how it's handled. There could be a tiny flinch/sound without effecting the way the enemy behave at all.

This is a simple request - at the moment, when you shoot the enemy, it doesn't look like they're being shot (obviously detracting from the immersion and undoing some of the stories, physics and AI's hardwork). This could be fixed without messing with the gameplay one bit.
 
Pitbul said:
Nozra, seriously reconsider your trivial and childish comment, you would really take a small hit detection animation over a very good story? if so, you suck a**
Click to expand...


if by story u were referring to my proposed allusion to some myth that VALVe would have to make, yes. i would. I was commenting on how stupid it would be if VALVe made up a story about why there is no hit detection. I didn't mean to say that a lack of overall story about the combines in general. Literally speaking i would like to see a background history on the enemies i fight, yes. thats true. but i was trying to imply that if i were to fight the combine, i'd rather see superb combat animation then have to remember gabe saying "oh, yea they (the combines) ignore pain because... uh.... because they're... uh.. super. troopers. They're all Super-troopers yea"

and the Small Hit Detection suggestion that i made and that u also referred to wasnt necesarily a "small" matter, my previous suggestion (somewhere on another page) was actually quite complex. it was a montage of sorts of the other ideas combined with the idea that the combines could flinch AND shoot back. That in and of itself could change gameplay - forcing players to be more wary around wounded OPFORs.

And Pitbul, if u already understood my meaning in all of this, and u still feel that way. then fine, your opinion is your own. But rethink what i said. I'd still rather impliment the flinch-and-possible-return-volley than see them ignore the pain, or flinch TOO wildly. Childish? i dont think so. it can be very appealing
 
daveodeth said:
thats the idea, you make your game around the fact you can stop them shooting you.
Click to expand...


I agree, but it's all relative dave, it really depends on how many your fighting. Because to say that the concept is to make them stop shooting is to have VALVe balance AI shooting skills/reaction times to having a possible flinch. What i mean to say is that they would have to be stronger/faster/quicker reflexed to be formidable adversaries. It'd force the player to be more wary - a stronger combine squad would require a well placed nade to take them out or 1 'sniper-detailed' combine would need fast reflexes and a precise firearm to take it out. I'm all for the flinch, but with variables
 
The combine do react to being shot. Look at the vid at ~5:40. He does not shoot back while he is being hit. It just seems like there is no animation to go with it (though the vid is quite blurry). The only case where an animation is visible for a person getting hit is at the beginning train scene where a citizen is pushed into a cart of luggage by a guard (but that looks like a 'scripted' animation).
 
Plus the fact that they are wearing masks, hides their expressions.
 
I'm sure HL2 will support flinching to a non-exaggerated extent
 
I think the combines should only "heavy flynch" when they are shot at parts without armour covering, like the arms and stuff. I think they should have some really cool animation when they are shot in the kneecaps which is one of the most painfull places to get shot at, same with the guts
 
I hope they'll fall backwards a small distance if you shoot a shotgun blast right into their body armor on the torso, like ALOT of power hitting them in that blast. Man I hope they will have flinching even when they're getting hit by pistols and such.
 
i hope they have post-mordem effects like metal gear solid - like a small debounce off the ground if u put 1 extra round into their torso.... im a sadist like that. after-death mutilation is just my thing. lmao
 
Nozra said:
i hope they have post-mordem effects like metal gear solid - like a small debounce off the ground if u put 1 extra round into their torso.... im a sadist like that. after-death mutilation is just my thing. lmao
Click to expand...

Guess the physics system will take care of that. :cheers:
 
You know in the E32004 video when Gordon makes it underneath the building with the pillars? Well when the Strider fires its big cannon and some people get vaporised around you, it sounds like Gordon loses his hearing for a few seconds because he was in close proximity to the blast. He also fires randomly about the place for a few secs too.

Anyone else noticed this?
 
They have mentioned that you lose hearing when loud explosions go off near to you.
 
Some of you boys have been watching too many movies.

Most of the time a bullet impact doesn't even move the victim, in fact it's rare that a person will actually realise that they've been shot at all, and will either carry on with what they were doing or just drop like a sack of cement.

Watch some real war footage or join the forces and get some first hand experience.

Valve have got it right, or at least as right as death can be in a game.
 
CR0M said:
Some of you boys have been watching too many movies.

Most of the time a bullet impact doesn't even move the victim, in fact it's rare that a person will actually realise that they've been shot at all, and will either carry on with what they were doing or just drop like a sack of cement.

Watch some real war footage or join the forces and get some first hand experience.

Valve have got it right, or at least as right as death can be in a game.
Click to expand...

But as you can see, the general consensus is that hit animations add more to the game. I certainly know I'd prefer to see a soldier flinching rather than taking them and crumpling over when he's had too much. It's that balance between realism and fun again.
 
CR0M said:
Some of you boys have been watching too many movies.

Most of the time a bullet impact doesn't even move the victim, in fact it's rare that a person will actually realise that they've been shot at all, and will either carry on with what they were doing or just drop like a sack of cement.

Watch some real war footage or join the forces and get some first hand experience.

Valve have got it right, or at least as right as death can be in a game.
Click to expand...

That's not the point, this isn't about realism (which can easily spoil a good idea).

Games that have had flinching/sounds etc are just far more satisfying and fun to play (I want movie fights, not real life)

(plus i'm sure there is movement when being shot lol - no matter how tiny)
 
Well, I was watching Discovery Health channel the other day and this woman got shot in the hand (she knew she did), but the medics arrived and checked to make sure she didn't get shot in the stomach, etc.

What they said was "You'd be surprised, when either their adrenaline gets going, or they take bullet to a limb first, most people won't realize they were shot in the chest or stomach"
 
Abom said:
But as you can see, the general consensus is that hit animations add more to the game. I certainly know I'd prefer to see a soldier flinching rather than taking them and crumpling over when he's had too much. It's that balance between realism and fun again.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm just a stickler for realism :D
To go all this way in making the most believable people in gaming to interact with (even to an emotional level) and then adding hollywood death scenes, no matter how played down, in my opinion just wouldn't add anything - artistic license or not. It looks fine the way it is, and i'm sure there are a lot more things that Valve could be concentrating on, like releasing the game in the second week of July when coincidentally, I have booked 2 weeks off work.
 
CR0M said:
Some of you boys have been watching too many movies.

Most of the time a bullet impact doesn't even move the victim, in fact it's rare that a person will actually realise that they've been shot at all, and will either carry on with what they were doing or just drop like a sack of cement.

Watch some real war footage or join the forces and get some first hand experience.

Valve have got it right, or at least as right as death can be in a game.
Click to expand...

damn those pussy 9 mm
 
CR0M said:
I guess I'm just a stickler for realism :D
To go all this way in making the most believable people in gaming to interact with (even to an emotional level) and then adding hollywood death scenes, no matter how played down, in my opinion just wouldn't add anything - artistic license or not. It looks fine the way it is, and i'm sure there are a lot more things that Valve could be concentrating on, like releasing the game in the second week of July when coincidentally, I have booked 2 weeks off work.
Click to expand...
Oh, believe me, I love realistically-portrayed games as well. Operation Flashpoint is one of my favourites, but I really think hit animations aren't suited to Half-Life 2's arcadey feel. Ultra-realistic aspects really aren't necessary for it.
 
if u watch closely, they do flinch and stop shooting when hit, its just so quick, you think thier shooting in burst all the time, but its actually them flinching from being shot.
 
In BF1942 when you hit an enemy he would flinch and grab his chest in pain...

but the guy being hit could continue shooting...

i liked that, lot better than in some game when you either...

A. hit and nothing happens
or
B. hit and the guy spends the next 10 seconds screaming and not being able to fire.
 
and you guys are forgetting that the combine may not be human, if thier part organic, part robotic they wouldn't flinch, or they might be so hyped up on like stim packs or something it they just shrug it off.
 
In real life people just sink down on the floor mostly after being shot BY ONE SINGLE BULLET, but they would freaking fall backwards if they were shot in closerange by a shotgun or taking a magasine of MP5 bullets.. That's the point.
 
That's why some people hate rag doll physics, because if not done right, they'll end up behaving like real rag dolls, not bodies.
 
DO NOT GO TO THIS SITE [Removed]

Yes it may be russian, but it has beta pictures. pictures of characters weapons maps! it was horrible! horrible i tell ya!

Nah it didn't ruin much. but still don't go there.
 
Esquire said:
DO NOT GO TO THIS SITE --------
Yes it may be russian, but it has beta pictures. pictures of characters weapons maps! it was horrible! horrible i tell ya!

Nah it didn't ruin much. but still don't go there.
Click to expand...

;/

Then why did you even post it?
 
I realize I'm the overwhelmed minority here, but I honestly do not care about whether the Combine I'm shooting flinches or not. I like seeing hit animations specific to points on the target's body, like in Goldeneye (neck shots were the best), and flinching wouldn't detract from the game, certainly, but it wouldn't add anything either, IMO.

Does everyone here agree that Half-Life was an immersive game? I believe it was. During firefights it got hectic, it was tense, and it drew me in. And yet there weren't hit animations from the marines, not that I recall anyway. They stood there and took your bullets, and when they'd had enough they'd hobble off gripping their chests and run for cover. It was STILL a believable firefight, and no one was showing any reaction to being shot with an MP5 at close range.
Did it make me feel like what I was shooting was a pea-shooter? No. Did I feel any less immersed in the game because they were acting like I hadn't hit them? Nope, it didn't even seem that way. Would I have felt ballsier if my weapon had blasted them into a fit of staccato jerks and twitches while they tried to regain their balance and aim at me again? Nah, not really. It might look cool, yeah, but I don't believe it adds anything to the realism of it. And even if HL2 isn't supposed to be real, and it's supposed to have an "Arcade-y" feel, I've never seen flinching happen in arcade games either.

It's all eye candy. How do I know the enemy's reacting to my shots when he isn't flinching?

*Me fires off a couple more rounds*

Oh, that's how. 'Cause now, HE'S DEAD. :LOL:
 
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