God helps those who help themselves

[Absinthe]

Heh, good commenting regarding the "fear" aspect. I too don't see how death threats can be looked upon with respect or honor. Particularly when they're directed at me.

 

[evil^milk]

Maria was raped by Roman soldier.

pfft, the Holy Spirit did Maria too.

 

[Solaris]

Mechagodzilla. You are a god amongst men.

 

[Ol'Master]

If this universe could have come to being without a creator at all, and could continue to exist and evolve without one, why put a god into the equation at all? Ockam's Razor states that you should take only the minimum of assumptions into a theory. And an omnipotent God is pretty much THE biggest and most complicated assumption you could make. And turns out, it's also an unneeded assumption.

Can you explain how the entirity of the universe was created without another force? Yes, this is a tired argument, but it still stands: What created the Big Bang? What created the preceding enviroment for the Big Bang to occur in? God is not an uneeded assumption until entirely proven otherwise.

 

[Core407]

Originally Posted by Mechagodzilla View Post
God is omnipotent and omniscient.
That means it is impossible for anything to happen unless god specifically wants it to happen.

If god kills you, he does so in order to send you to heaven or hell.
People who are unworthy end up in hell.
People who are worthy are those who follow all god's laws to the letter and pray regularly.

So, the only conclusion is that the population of heaven is being selectively bred for maximum servility and inability to question authority.

Why?

God could just as easily zap an army of slaves out of thin air (or just do the work himself).
But I hear he gave us "free will" ...out of kindness?

Free will in this case means only "an extremely high chance of eternal flesh-burning".
God in the bible loves the smell of burning meat. It's probably his favorite thing.

So why didn't god just materialize infinite steaks and zap them one at a time for eternity to get his immolation buzz?

The only explanation is that he got bored of perfection, and decided to mix it up a bit.

So humanity burns at the whim of "free will" so that god can get high.


As for why god wants an army of eugenically engineered slaves:
--------

That was probably the dumbest thing I've ever read.

 

[Solaris]

Originally Posted by Mechagodzilla View Post
God is omnipotent and omniscient.
That means it is impossible for anything to happen unless god specifically wants it to happen.

If god kills you, he does so in order to send you to heaven or hell.
People who are unworthy end up in hell.
People who are worthy are those who follow all god's laws to the letter and pray regularly.

So, the only conclusion is that the population of heaven is being selectively bred for maximum servility and inability to question authority.

Why?

God could just as easily zap an army of slaves out of thin air (or just do the work himself).
But I hear he gave us "free will" ...out of kindness?

Free will in this case means only "an extremely high chance of eternal flesh-burning".
God in the bible loves the smell of burning meat. It's probably his favorite thing.

So why didn't god just materialize infinite steaks and zap them one at a time for eternity to get his immolation buzz?

The only explanation is that he got bored of perfection, and decided to mix it up a bit.

So humanity burns at the whim of "free will" so that god can get high.


As for why god wants an army of eugenically engineered slaves:
--------

That was probably the dumbest thing I've ever read.

Really? I think its probably the most intelligent thing I've read in a few weeks.
Kudos to Mecha for it.

 

[Shift]

ok i didn't even bother to read the rest after people start getting at others for their comments.

I stand by one saying that is 'Everyone is entitled to their beliefs', but when you go bad mouthing and ripping off someone else's beliefs, where does that leave them, a lot of people live their lifes through their religion and their beliefs, and to challenge them or destroy what they believe in is to destroy that persons way of life.

My belief is that God is real to an extent, but the Bible? Church? I think thats all a scam to be quite honest. The ten commandments were supposdly handed down by God to Moses, and quite frankly, i think thats bullshit. The Ten Commandments are rules that were made up in order to make the world a better place, so they said to follow these rules means to go to heaven, to not follow the rules means to go to Hell. This completely contradicts this 'free will' policy that God made for us, if he wanted free will for all of us, then he wouldn't give us these rules to follow in the process.

I believe God wants us to believe how we want to believe, either if thats bad or good, it doesn't matter. I believe God started the Universe, and left it there, because i can find the reasons for everything else scientifically all up to the point of how it all started. The Big Band? sure ok, but how did that begin? Something has to have been there at the start of it all, and I believe it was God. However, after that? I think he just let it grow on its own.

I also believe the meaning of life is that everyone has purpose, and that we are here to achieve that purpose, even if you only live for a few minutes after being born to 101 years, you still make an impact somewhere. I also do not believe in a Heaven and a Hell, but reincarnation. When someone dies, they become someone or something else, in order to create an infinite cycle of life.

I also believe that people like priests, people who try and force THEIR belief or the belief of the Bible onto other people, that THEY are the ones in the wrong. It is those sort of people, in other circumstances of course, throughout history that caused the amount of killing, disgracing and wars throughout the world. A lot of wars were thought throughout history because of the forced beleifs onto others, The Crucades is a perfect example. This type of religion also is the source of terrorism, because some guy has radicial ideas of their religion (because they are mad tbh) and brain washing others with it. This is not, I believe, God had in mind.

That is my belief and stick by that, but for god sake guys, stop putting down other people's beliefs, you dont have the right tbh.

 

[Vass]

I am of the philosophy that you have free will and God is in control.

Forrest Gump said it best.

I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time. I miss you, Jenny. If there's anything you need, I won't be far away.

 

[PvtRyan]

Can you explain how the entirity of the universe was created without another force? Yes, this is a tired argument, but it still stands: What created the Big Bang? What created the preceding enviroment for the Big Bang to occur in? God is not an uneeded assumption until entirely proven otherwise.

Tell me: what does God explain in this problem?

God doesn't answer anything, here's why: who created God or why is he there?

There's a number of possibilities:
1) God was always there. In that case, the same could hold true for the universe.
2) God had a creator. This would mean he was created out of "nothing". This can be the same for the universe.
3) God "works in mysterious ways" and "your brains can't comprehend God" and crap like that. But quantummechanics is infinitely more batshit insane than God could ever hope to be.

Whatever the way, something was created out of nothing. Adding a God to the equation doesn't solve anything (just makes it unnecessarily complex tbh).

Saying God is a solution is just redescribing the problem!

You didn't solve anything by saying "God did it", you just moved the problem back a bit. Moving the problem, however, won't solve the case of a creation out of nothing. Something which actually CAN be explained by physics, but the best creationists can come up with is magic.

What created the Big Bang? Well, what created God? God is eternal! Well, so was the universe then! You can't make matter out of nothing! Well, God did it!

I don't think God is an explanation at all. It's simply redescribing the problem.
We are trying to understand how we have got a complicated world, and we have an explanation in terms of a slightly simpler world, and we explain that in terms of a slightly simpler world and it all hangs together down to an ultimately simple world.
Now, God is not an explanation of that kind. God himself cannot be simple if he has power to do all the things he is supposed to do. - Richard Dawkins

------------------------------------------------------------

I stand by one saying that is 'Everyone is entitled to their beliefs', but when you go bad mouthing and ripping off someone else's beliefs, where does that leave them, a lot of people live their lifes through their religion and their beliefs, and to challenge them or destroy what they believe in is to destroy that persons way of life.

Why are religious beliefs so sacred? Say you're a communist, or that you loved Battlefield Earth and think Britney Spears is the greatest mucisian ever, and people will laugh at your stupidity. However, saying you believe in silly creation fairytales should be "respected"? In fact, they expect people to tiptoe around their beliefs to not step on any toes. Why should unrational faith be applauded? It doesn't get us any where and it actually hinders progress (people trying to force schools to teach the "science" of creationism").

 

[Core407]

Really? I think its probably the most intelligent thing I've read in a few weeks.
Kudos to Mecha for it.

People are still looking at God with a 19th century perspective. What's the point of creating a world that God can change to his own liking? Obviously he would eventually grow tired of it and on top of that, people would expect him to answer their prayers and wishes. In reality. In reality, God cannot seperate the seas, cause epic floods or answer your prayers. The universe has rules that cannot be broken - how can you expect God to break the laws of gravity to save someone, or cause a hurricane (katrina for example) to show the sinners that God is angry.

The world is unfair, but that's what makes it fair.

 

[Shift]

I see noone even bothered to look at my advice

 

[Tr0n]

Take a guess why.

 

[Core407]

Take a guess why.

God?

 

[Tr0n]

No, because he's a noob, you noob.

Edit: Oh and god hates you.

 

[Shift]

'Noob' to me is the most pathetic name to even call anyone. But dont worry, im used to people's cockiness and arrogance on other forums, no suprise here either, just always dawns on me that they are only capable of that because they are sitting behind a screen in some other part of the world..

 

[PvtRyan]

Tr0n calls everyone a noob.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

What's the point of creating a world that God can change to his own liking?

There isn't one.
Unless you use the "19th Century" notion that god has bizarre emotions.
In fact, an irrational god is the only one that would match the reality we face.

Of course, irrationality is a flaw that an omnipotent god cannot have.
So we'll have to assume he's omnipotent except for being rational.

Obviously he would eventually grow tired of it

Nope, "growing tired" is a flaw. It is impossible for omnipotent god to become tired.

and on top of that, people would expect him to answer their prayers and wishes.

Omnipotent god cannot be nuisanced by prayers.

In reality. In reality, God cannot seperate the seas, cause epic floods or answer your prayers.

He created the universe and is omnipotent.
How could he not do these things?

The universe has rules that cannot be broken - how can you expect God to break the laws of gravity to save someone, or cause a hurricane (katrina for example) to show the sinners that God is angry.

God wrote the laws and he can break them with impunity. Otherwise, he would be able to defeat himself. Which is impossible because he's omnipotent.
TIME PARADOX

His ability to converse with people in the first place, and thus giving you the idea of a god, breaks those very laws.

The world is unfair, but that's what makes it fair.

Isn't that just a variation on "god works in mysterious ways"?

 

[Core407]

There isn't one.
Unless you use the "19th Century" notion that god has bizarre emotions.
In fact, an irrational god is the only one that would match the reality we face.

Of course, irrationality is a flaw that an omnipotent god cannot have.
So we'll have to assume he's omnipotent except for being rational.


Nope, "growing tired" is a flaw. It is impossible for omnipotent god to become tired.


Omnipotent god cannot be nuisanced by prayers.


He created the universe and is omnipotent.
How could he not do these things?


God wrote the laws and he can break them with impunity. Otherwise, he would be able to defeat himself. Which is impossible because he's omnipotent.
TIME PARADOX

His ability to converse with people in the first place, and thus giving you the idea of a god, breaks those very laws.


Isn't that just a variation on "god works in mysterious ways"?

Or maybe God isn't irrational, but rather understands that if he tinkers in the world, only bad things will come out of it.

I don't get what's so complicated about it. If God changes something in someones favor, there is going to be a reacation to that (every action has a reaction) and that reaction will blossom and eventually spread and soon enough, he's done more damage than good. If God were to actually tinker with the world then that would make him even more irrational.

The only way to stop these reactions is to take away Free Will and if you do that, then there's no point in even living.

 

[PvtRyan]

Or maybe God isn't irrational, but rather understands that if he tinkers in the world, only bad things will come out of it.

No there wouldn't, he's omnipotent, he can make the world perfect if he wants.

 

[Core407]

No there wouldn't, he's omnipotent, he can make the world perfect if he wants.

So then there's no such thing as free will. If God can tell you what you're going to do in 5 minutes and where the world will be in 20 years then Free Will doesn't exist and life is useless.

 

[Solaris]

So then there's no such thing as free will. If God can tell you what you're going to do in 5 minutes and where the world will be in 20 years then Free Will doesn't exist and life is useless.

Actually. I believe that.

 

[Core407]

Actually. I believe that.

God happens to be omnipotent, but he doesn't reside in this universe and therefore has no control over it. Simple as that.

 

[kirovman]

God happens to be omnipotent, but he doesn't reside in this universe and therefore has no control over it. Simple as that.

So he can't observe the universe either?

How is he supposed to be able to find out who's been sinning?

 

[Core407]

So he can't observe the universe either?

How is he supposed to be able to find out who's been sinning?

When people die, they go into another dimensions (where God has full control) and then he decides what to do with them.

Edit: I just realized how much of a genius I am.

 

[PvtRyan]

So then there's no such thing as free will. If God can tell you what you're going to do in 5 minutes and where the world will be in 20 years then Free Will doesn't exist and life is useless.

So heaven doesn't exist? That's supposed to be perfect.

But anyway, we get the point, an omipotent being that can't actually do anything, which goes directly against the definition of omnipotent. Whatever.

 

[kirovman]

Well, then it is our job as physicists to build the ultimate weapon to defeat God in this exterior dimension.

It's natural progression.

Just as robots will inevitably destroy humankind, humankind will destroy God.

 

[Core407]

So heaven doesn't exist? That's supposed to be perfect.

But anyway, we get the point, an omipotent being that can't actually do anything, which goes directly against the definition of omnipotent. Whatever.

Omnipotent in a different universe. If God were to enter our universe, he would have the exact same limitations as us.

Heaven exists, but not in this dimension.

I really don't get what's so farfetched about this. Seems as rational as any other theories that I've heard and almost all of them cannot be disproven to boot.

 

[Core407]

Well, then it is our job as physicists to build the ultimate weapon to defeat God in this exterior dimension.

It's natural progression.

Just as robots will inevitably destroy humankind, humankind will destroy God.

No, because once you enter that other dimension, God is omnipotent and therefor you have no power against him.

 

[PvtRyan]

 

[Core407]

Can you tell I'm just making this up as I go along?

 

[PvtRyan]

Can you tell I'm just making this up as I go along?

Imagine that, your brainfarts make more sense than 2000 years of Christianity.

 

[Core407]

Imagine that, your brainfarts make more sense than 2000 years of Christianity.

No, I don't disagree with Christianity or any religion because I can't disprove it, but I just can't believe in it when I'm not 100% sure. Maybe sometime down the road something will happen and I'll be able to, but not at this point.

 

[DrDevin]

I stand by one saying that is 'Everyone is entitled to their beliefs', but when you go bad mouthing and ripping off someone else's beliefs, where does that leave them, a lot of people live their lifes through their religion and their beliefs, and to challenge them or destroy what they believe in is to destroy that persons way of life.

"Everyone is entitled to their beliefs."

What you are saying is fundamentally flawed. If you apply this to any real world situation it does not produce a positive outcome. In all the facets of life you it is imperative that you understand the way things work and the truth. If you believe that 2+2 = 5 then you are wrong.

This is not so bad but when used in the same fashion as religion, when you teach your children incorrect information, they could be put into a situation where they choose the wrong answer, through no fault of their own.

It is beneficial to show someone that what they believe is wrong and that they can change their ways. It is better to explain to someone that their is no god then for them to contine thinking that if they kill themselves in an attack on a group of infidels they will go to "heaven."

Besides, once the initial group of people learn the truth and teach their children accordingly there will no longer be any pain or conflict associated with converting.

My belief is that God is real to an extent, but the Bible? Church? I think thats all a scam to be quite honest.

Instead of basing your faith on a contradictory, incomplete book and organization, you base it on absolutely no proof at all?

This completely contradicts this 'free will' policy that God made for us, if he wanted free will for all of us, then he wouldn't give us these rules to follow in the process.

So free will is a tangible object? What proof do you have that you can simply give "free will" to something, let alone prove that there was no free will in the past (humans have no been around forever you know, approx 200,000 years) You have no proof of a god and the same amount of proof for this thing, giving free will to humans.

I believe God wants us to believe how we want to believe, either if thats bad or good, it doesn't matter.

What makes you think that? If the believing in a god and worshipping it has no effect then I see no reason to do so.

I believe God started the Universe, and left it there, because i can find the reasons for everything else scientifically all up to the point of how it all started. The Big Band? sure ok, but how did that begin? Something has to have been there at the start of it all, and I believe it was God. However, after that? I think he just let it grow on its own.

This also does not make sense. Which do you think is more probable, very small particles always existing, which collide around to create things and interactions or an infinitly powerfull, perfect being, which is more complex then anything else that has ever or will ever exist, always existing.

This also brings up the question of why such a being would want to create a universe (and what did it do before it thought of making the universe which is also impossible because it knows and thinks of everything) since it is all powerfull and what it did and where it was before it created the universe.

I also believe the meaning of life is that everyone has purpose, and that we are here to achieve that purpose, even if you only live for a few minutes after being born to 101 years, you still make an impact somewhere.

Why do you think life has a meaning? If it has a meaning then there is no such thing as free will. Why do you need a purpose and why must you fill that purpose. This also means there is no free will. Why should you live to make people angry and unhappy (ovbiously someone must have this purpose). Why can't I be rich or happy?

I also do not believe in a Heaven and a Hell, but reincarnation. When someone dies, they become someone or something else, in order to create an infinite cycle of life.

If you don't know anything about a previous life then you are wrong on that belief. However you are correct on the whole, seeing as when you die the matter making up your body is recycled. In fact you are made up of many different (previously alive) things right now.

I also believe that people like priests, people who try and force THEIR belief or the belief of the Bible onto other people, that THEY are the ones in the wrong. It is those sort of people, in other circumstances of course, throughout history that caused the amount of killing, disgracing and wars throughout the world. A lot of wars were thought throughout history because of the forced beleifs onto others, The Crucades is a perfect example. This type of religion also is the source of terrorism, because some guy has radicial ideas of their religion (because they are mad tbh) and brain washing others with it. This is not, I believe, God had in mind.

You just said that people have a "purpose." This must be their purpose, to be a terrorist. This also shows that god does not know everything and is not worth thinking about or worshipping in the first place.

That is my belief and stick by that, but for god sake guys, stop putting down other people's beliefs, you dont have the right tbh.

Actually it is called the freedom of speech, they have the right to say whatever they want. You have no right to take away their rights, which makes you wrong. :thumbs:

 

[Solaris]

No, I don't disagree with Christianity or any religion because I can't disprove it, but I just can't believe in it when I'm not 100% sure. Maybe sometime down the road something will happen and I'll be able to, but not at this point.

You don't have to disprove it. It's disproven until proven otherwise.

 

[Tr0n]

Tr0n calls everyone a noob.

Not really, just people that really are noobs.

Get use to it folks. God damn noobs.

 

[evil^milk]

Why do you think life has a meaning? If it has a meaning then there is no such thing as free will. Why do you need a purpose and why must you fill that purpose. This also means there is no free will. Why should you live to make people angry and unhappy (ovbiously someone must have this purpose). Why can't I be rich or happy?

not sure I understand what you're saying here, can you please elaborate?

 

[Core407]

You don't have to disprove it. It's disproven until proven otherwise.

No, because you cannot prove to me what started the universe. And if you say the big bang, I'll ask you what caused the big bang. Therefor is your conundrum.

 

[Solaris]

No, because you cannot prove to me what started the universe. And if you say the big bang, I'll ask you what caused the big bang. Therefor is your conundrum.

that can be explained. However its 1am and I am unable to raise the will power to explain the multi verse theory.

The lack of knowing something does not proove god. Learn logic.

 

[Core407]

that can be explained. However its 1am and I am unable to raise the will power to explain the multi verse theory.

The lack of knowing something does not proove god. Learn logic.

Learn how to read, buddy. I never said I believed in God, but rather that I didn't disbelieve in him. I'm completely in the middle and probably will be forever.

 

[Shift]

In reply to Devin:

Number 1: I mean entitled to beliefs about God and the such, because frankly there is no right or wrong answer, because there is no proof of anything.

Number 2: The Bible is not proof either, how the hell do we know that any of it is true, there is no proof of anything under these circumstances, i base my beliefs on what makes the most sense to me.

Number 3: Again, because i base it on what I believe to make the most sense. There is no proof that he wanted us to have 'free will', but there is no proof for a lot of the beliefs that has been said here, so really its going round in circles.

Number 4: You can still have your own personal belief on God and still gain just as much effectivness out of it.

Number 5: Well yeah that is a good question, but that question can never be answered unless we actually went back to when the universe was formed. To ask yourself scientifically how the universe was formed and what started that, and to challenge the religious theory will cause people to just go in circles, all it does it confuse the situation. Again, I believe this because it makes the most sense to me.

Number 6: Thats because its all still a purpose. Even if its bad or good, its still a purpose on earth, not everyone serves the purpose they want because that is life, the radomizing of people's purpose keeps life varied.

Number 7: First off all, under this topic, no one is wrong on a belief. Ok, i dont know if we are reincarnated, but you dont know if we are not, but that is my belief. Plus there has been many cases throughout where people have been known to somehow feel a connection into a past life.

Number 8: Yeah i did contradict myself there a bit, but yeah it is their purpose, although i do not agree with it =D

And finally:
Actually in terms of religion, if someone was to go to announce on a stage in the middle of a major western city that he hates christains and their beliefs are a load of crap, THAT stretches the boundries of freedom of speech, as he will be arrested

Anyway, i cant be arsed having a discussion about it anymore, let other people have say lol