Guns suck

[Yakuza]

Guns dont pull the trigger

Guns dont pull the trigger

Whats the point?

 

[seinfeldrules]

Guns dont pull the trigger

Guns dont pull the trigger

Guns dont pull the trigger

Thanks for proving my point that people pull the triggers of guns. How about you post the link where a mother drowns her 5 boys, or a family dies in a fire?

 

[CptStern]

without the opportunity to pull the trigger those kids could still be alive ...3 yr olds shouldnt die from gunshot wounds

 

[Yakuza]

without the opportunity to pull the trigger lives could have been saved ...3 yr olds shouldnt die from gunshot wounds

They also shouldn't drown in pools.

 

[seinfeldrules]

3 yr olds shouldnt die from gunshot wounds

Nor should they die from insane mothers or fires.

 

[CptStern]

those incidents are extremely rare anywhere else. Frankly as a parent I'm surprised at your response yakuza

 

[blahblahblah]

those incidents are extremely rare anywhere else. Frankly as a parent I'm surprised at your response yakuza

More kids drown in swimming pools in Phoenix, Arizona than get shot.

 

[CptStern]

More kids drown in swimming pools in Phoenix, Arizona than get shot.

yes but kids still get shot

 

[Foxtrot]

yes but kids still get shot

And kids still drown, so you are saying we should get rid of swimming pools? They serve no practical purpose at all, and I am extremely white and burn easily...so I say get rid of those death machines called pools.

 

[bliink]

The episodes of actually suicidal tendency are brief moments filled with the fog of self-loathing that can be triggered by fatal things around them (especially the quickest most effective sure-fire way loaded and in his drawer) so actually no that point is rather invalid, him not owning that gun could have easily saved his life.

exactly what i was thinking..

 

[CptStern]

And kids still drown, so you are saying we should get rid of swimming pools? They serve no practical purpose at all, and I am extremely white and burn easily...so I say get rid of those death machines called pools.

I'm pretty sure the rate of death by swimming pool is comparable to other countries, however:

"The homicide rate for children in the United States was five times higher than that for children in the other 25 countries combined"

from here

 

[Yakuza]

The problem with the argument has nothing to do with guns or pools rather the neglagents of parents.

I enjoy shooting and caring for guns. I enlist the strictes form of gun saftey to my children and any one I know. A gun is allways loaded, and its entire design was ment to kill and thats what it will do. However I also love the right I have to carry a gun, for in this crazy world its nice to know that if one of these crazy bastards desides he wants to rape and murder my whole family that I now have a mediators to settle the case......Their names are Mr Smith and Mr Wesson.

 

[CptStern]

The problem with the argument has nothing to do with guns or pools rather the neglagents of parents.

I enjoy shooting and caring for guns. I enlist the strictes form of gun saftey to my children and any one I know. A gun is allways loaded, and its entire design was ment to kill and thats what it will do. However I also love the right I have to carry a gun, for in this crazy world its nice to know that if one of these crazy bastards desides he wants to rape and murder my whole family that I now have a mediators to settle the case......Their names are Mr Smith and Mr Wesson.

I dont get you ...you'll follow the bible to the letter in some instances yet ignore other aspects of it's teachings. btw do you hunt?

what crazy bastards?

"in 2002 (the same year the 14,054 murders were committed) only 225 of those were deemed justifiable homicide (The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen) "

 

[FoxDie]

"in 2002 (the same year the 14,054 murders were committed) only 225 of those were deemed justifiable homicide (The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen) "

I'm not going to take sides here, but I just wanted to share an interesting article I just read (I'd like to hear your thoughts, Stern. Since we've both been active in some of the gun threads.)

It's a bit long, but he makes some interesting points:

http://hillsdale.edu/newimprimis/default.htm

Enjoy

EDIT: Sorry for all the edits

 

[ductonius]

I dont get you ...you'll follow the bible to the letter in some instances yet ignore other aspects of it's teachings. btw do you hunt?

You must mean: 'In my opinion, you "ignore other aspects of its teachings."'

"in 2002 (the same year the 14,054 murders were committed) only 225 of those were deemed justifiable homicide (The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen) "

What are you trying to prove? His point is that he keeps firearms to protect himself and his family. You post data to support the fact that this can happen? Have you decided to argue pro-gun now for some reason?

 

[Yakuza]

I'm pretty sure the rate of death by swimming pool is comparable to other countries, however:

"The homicide rate for children in the United States was five times higher than that for children in the other 25 countries combined"

from here

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2002/2002chdfacts.pdf

also

In 2002, there were more than 60 million children under 15 years old in the
United States. This age group (0-14 years) made up 21 percent of the total
U.S. resident population in 2002.

In 2002, 22 percent of the children under 15 years old who were killed in
motor vehicle crashes were killed in alcohol-related crashes.

I would also like to see the statistics on those murders and how many of them were committed under the influence of drugs or alcohol.


You dont get me because you dont have an understanding of the bible. You think you know what it teaches but you base this on a few scriptures that still dont make a valid argument against what I believe.

I would also like to note that I would never kill a person unless the endagered my family or some one else.


and no I dont hunt, but I dont think that there is a problem with it...fundemtaly.

 

[CptStern]

yes but the argument is flawed in that this wouldnt happen or would be extremely rare in any other country:

"a shooting left three dead at the Appalachian Law School in Virginia."


if the guy didnt have a gun there wouldnt have been 3 dead people


"Three students pounced on the gunman and held him until help arrived." New York's Newsday noted only that the attacker was "restrained by students." Many stories mentioned the law-enforcement or military backgrounds of these student heroes, but virtually all of the media, in discussing how the killer was stopped, failed to mention the students' guns."


you really dont understand how that line is utterly insane ..students carrying guns is sooo alien to me ..sure there are a few incidents but it's not the norm

"I conducted searches of the nation's three largest newspapers - USA Today, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times - for the year 2001 and found that only the Times carried even a single news story on defensive gun use. (The instance involved a retired New York City Department of Corrections worker who shot a man attempting to hold up a gas station.)"

and the headline would have read differently if he had been killed instead


the entire article tries to support the idea that a well armed populace is a safe populace, but the facts speak otherwise:

"in 2002 (the same year the 14,054 murders were committed) only 225 of those were deemed justifiable homicide (The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen) "

 

[CptStern]

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2002/2002chdfacts.pdf

also

I would also like to see the statistics on those murders and how many of them were committed under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

we are not discussing the causality of the murders but rather the instrument used to commit the murders

You dont get me because you dont have an understanding of the bible. You think you know what it teaches but you base this on a few scriptures that still dont make a valid argument against what I believe.

you cant argue the fact that jesus taught non violence: show me one insatnce where he justifyied killing for the sake of protecting

I would also like to note that I would never kill a person unless the endagered my family or some one else.

sorry but the stats say you have a greater chance of being killed by someone you know

and no I dont hunt, but I dont think that there is a problem with it...fundemtaly.

I guess animals dont have a right to live ...they must be lacking a soul

 

[FoxDie]

yes but the argument is flawed in that this wouldnt happen or would be extremely rare in any other country:

"a shooting left three dead at the Appalachian Law School in Virginia."


if the guy didnt have a gun there wouldnt have been 3 dead people


"Three students pounced on the gunman and held him until help arrived." New York's Newsday noted only that the attacker was "restrained by students." Many stories mentioned the law-enforcement or military backgrounds of these student heroes, but virtually all of the media, in discussing how the killer was stopped, failed to mention the students' guns."


you really dont understand how that line is utterly insane ..students carrying guns is sooo alien to me ..sure there are a few incidents but it's not the norm

"I conducted searches of the nation's three largest newspapers - USA Today, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times - for the year 2001 and found that only the Times carried even a single news story on defensive gun use. (The instance involved a retired New York City Department of Corrections worker who shot a man attempting to hold up a gas station.)"

and the headline would have read differently if he had been killed instead


the entire article tries to support the idea that a well armed populace is a safe populace, but the facts speak otherwise:

"in 2002 (the same year the 14,054 murders were committed) only 225 of those were deemed justifiable homicide (The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen) "

Well what I thought was interesting about that incident was that out of 218 news reports, only 4 reported that the shooter was stopped by students who retrieved guns from their cars, and made the shooter surrender Most of the newspapers reported that the shooter was tackled by students.


Here is one of the most interesting parts of the article:

Debunking the Myth of Accidental Shootings

A final area strongly affected by the media's anti-gun bias is that of accidental shootings. When it comes to this topic, reporters are eager to write about guns. Many of us have seen the public service ads showing the voices or pictures of children between the ages of four and eight, which imply that there is an epidemic of accidental deaths of these young children.

Data I have collected show that accidental shooters overwhelmingly are adults with long histories of arrests for violent crimes, alcoholism, suspended or revoked driver's licenses and involvement in car crashes. Meanwhile, the annual number of accidental gun deaths involving children under ten - most of these being cases where someone older shoots the child - is consistently a single digit number. It is a kind of media archetype story to report on "naturally curious" children shooting themselves or other children - though in the five years from 1997 to 2001 the entire United States averaged only ten cases a year where a child under ten accidentally shot himself or another child.

In contrast, in 2001 bicycles were much more likely to result in accidental deaths than guns. Fully 93 children under the age of ten drowned accidentally in bathtubs. Thirty-six children under five drowned in buckets in 1998. Yet few reporters crusade against buckets or bathtubs.

When crimes are committed with guns, there is a somewhat natural inclination toward eliminating all guns. While understandable, this reaction actually endangers people's lives because it ignores how important guns are in protecting people from harm. Unbalanced media coverage exaggerates this, leaving most Americans with a glaringly incomplete picture of the dangers and benefits of firearms. This is how the media bias against guns hurts society and costs lives.

 

[bliink]

Well what I thought was interesting about that incident was that out of 218 news reports, only 4 reported that the shooter was stopped by students who received guns from their cars.

dont forget, noone would need to stop it if it hadn't started to begin with

 

[FoxDie]

dont forget, noone would need to stop it if it hadn't started to begin with

I understand that. But since we have so many weapons in the US, outlawing them wouldn't do any good. Most gun owners (and criminals) would keep their firearms. Since firearms are so established in the United States, it's too late to take them away effectively.

 

[bliink]

I understand that. But since we have so many weapons in the US, outlawing them wouldn't do any good. Most gun owners (and criminals) would keep their firearms. Since firearms are so established in the United States, it's too late to take them away effectively.

true, same with a lot of things there i would imagine.. the government doesnt seem to be able to keep up...(or want to)

 

[Yakuza]

we are not discussing the causality of the murders but rather the instrument used to commit the murders




you cant argue the fact that jesus taught non violence: show me one insatnce where he justifyied killing for the sake of protecting

And as I had stated, the instument of a 4 ton bullet has claimed more lives. How many families can say had he not gotten in a car we would still have our family. And how many of the people murdered by guns were first under the influence of drugs and alcohol. My point isn't that Guns dont kill people but stupid people kill. And most of these murders probably wouldn't have happened if the person wasn't first under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Exodus 22:2
"If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;

 

[bliink]

And as I had stated, the instument of a 4 ton bullet has claimed more lives. How many families can say had he not gotten in a car we would still have our family. And how many of the people murdered by guns were first under the influence of drugs and alcohol. My point isn't that Guns dont kill people but stupid people kill. And most of these murders probably wouldn't have happened if the person wasn't first under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

but a car isnt quite like a gun.. a gun is designed to kill, usually has multiple bullets, and someone using a gun (on people) usually intends to kill them

 

[Yakuza]

I guess animals dont have a right to live ...they must be lacking a soul

Why I said fundementaly...I dont agree with sport hunting. Hunting is fundementaly used to feed those who are hungry.

 

[CptStern]

And as I had stated, the instument of a 4 ton bullet has claimed more lives. How many families can say had he not gotten in a car we would still have our family. And how many of the people murdered by guns were first under the influence of drugs and alcohol. My point isn't that Guns kill people but stupid people kill. And most of these murders probably wouldn't have happened if the person wasn't first under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

where are you coming up with this info? so you're saying the majority of the 18 odd thousands murders a year are caused by people under the influence of drugs and alcohol? That doesnt explain why the child death rate by firearms is 5 times larger than that of 25 other developed countries combined

 

[Yakuza]

but a car isnt quite like a gun.. a gun is designed to kill, usually has multiple bullets, and someone using a gun (on people) usually intends to kill them

Agreed but my argument isn't that guns are the problem, its the people who use them and most of the people who use them in a crime are generaly under some kind of drug. I think the biggest killer is alcohol. I wonder how less violent the world would be...shoot just America...if alcohol was banned.

 

[CptStern]

Why I said fundementaly...I dont agree with sport hunting. Hunting is fundementaly used to feed those who are hungry.

no one hunts to feed themselves because they're hungry any more, that's what grocery stores are for

 

[CptStern]

Agreed but my argument isn't that guns are the problem, its the people who use them and most of the people who use them in a crime are generaly under some kind of drug. I think the biggest killer is alcohol. I wonder how less violent the world would be...shoot just America...if alcohol was banned.

what drug? come on! links, evidence ..you make it look like it's a drug crazed world out there ...have you ever done any drugs? you cant function normally if you're on herione or crack ...and dont say cocaine cuz that's a rich man's drug. I could bitch slap a room full of crack heads while they're all fcuked from smoking too much ..most crackheads are emanciated and weak from lack of sleep and food

 

[FoxDie]

no one hunts to feed themselves because they're hungry any more, that's what grocery stores are for

I'll agree with you on this. Most hunters these days are middle to upper class residents, who don't necessarily need the food, but enjoy hunting. But there are some cases where a family is in financial trouble, and hunts to feed their families (although it is rare.)

 

[Jack_Karverboy]

I totally agree :frown: Guns suck so hard, we should just use swords

 

[Cybernoid]

Talking to people opposed to guns is futile. You can shred their arguments (which are very weak to begin with) to pieces a million times and they just keep coming. They just stare at you blanky and chant "guns kill people guns kill people ooh ooh ooh." Logic has no place in this.

 

[CptStern]

Talking to people opposed to guns is futile. You can shred their arguments (which are very weak to begin with) to pieces a million times and they just keep coming. They just stare at you blanky and chant "guns kill people guns kill people ooh ooh ooh." Logic has no place in this.

I've provided a ton of stats proving my case, I've yet to see you disprove them

 

[Tr0n]

Hell no matter what others say I'm gonna keep my gun and keep hunting.I don't give a damn if they like it or not... :thumbs:

 

[CptStern]

Hell no matter what others say I'm gonna keep my gun and keep hunting.I don't give a damn if they like it or not... :thumbs:

do you eat the animals you hunt?

 

[Tr0n]

do you eat the animals you hunt?

Of course...You think I'm gonna go out and shoot some deer because it is there and then just leave it there to rot?I'm not that way...I mainly hunt for food.I know your gonna bring up the grocery store thing blah blah.But each his own...

 

[CptStern]

well you'd be surprised ...if you truely eat the animal you hunt you're better off than buying your meat in a grocery store for the simple fact that a bullet to the brain can be more humane than the treatment animals recieve in slaughterhouses. It doesnt mean that every hunter dispatches their kill humanely, it just means it can, under the right circumstances, be a clean death. It still doesnt justify the fact you are ending a life for no other reason but "want". We reached the point where killing for survival is no longer needed, there's plenty of anternatives. I like to believe humans have evolved (as a collective) beyond the need to inflict pain and suffering on other beings as a means of control and dominance.

 

[Yakuza]

no one hunts to feed themselves because they're hungry any more, that's what grocery stores are for

Hence why I dont hunt.

 

[CptStern]

Hence why I dont hunt.

unforetunately most hunters dont feel the same way

 

[Yakuza]

what drug? come on! links, evidence ..you make it look like it's a drug crazed world out there ...have you ever done any drugs? you cant function normally if you're on herione or crack ...and dont say cocaine cuz that's a rich man's drug. I could bitch slap a room full of crack heads while they're all fcuked from smoking too much ..most crackheads are emanciated and weak from lack of sleep and food

Uh, I spent almost half my life on drugs. And this crap about cocain is total bull. If I went into the drug buisness yeah it may be more expensive, but to go buy it on the street its not that much. I did ALOT of cocain and I am not rich. Yeah you could slap a bunch of crack heads after they smoke but crack heads would sell their children for their next hit. Crack heads would kill some one for their next hit. We havent even got into other drugs like, LSD, PCP, Chrystal, ect..... a lot of the drugs out there are stimulants or uppers.

All I am saying is that guns are not the problem. People are the problem. If we take away guns, we will go back to bows and arrows, and probably more explosives.