Half-Life 2, Doom 3 and Halo 2 - A discussion

[Reaper978]

No, but I feel that feature was implemented soley for modding capability, where doom 3 is not putting as much emphasis into that area, so they can make the mouths move perfectly without putting in a feature like this. The mouth syncin is definately not perfect in hl2 as well.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by Reaper978
No, but I feel that feature was implemented soley for modding capability, where doom 3 is not putting as much emphasis into that area, so they can make the mouths move perfectly without putting in a feature like this. The mouth syncin is definately not perfect in hl2 as well.

Neither of them is perfect. Lip syncing in real life isn't even perfect in some cases. Lol.

Either way, Half-Life 2's method is more realistic. The characters of HL-2 actually have muscles simulated in their faces for more realistic animations. Doom 3, I believe is done with artist animations I believe, which could possibly be also very good... but it's hard for even the best animation artists to beat the facial muscle simulation.

 

[LoneDeranger]

Originally posted by Reaper978
No, but I feel that feature was implemented soley for modding capability, where doom 3 is not putting as much emphasis into that area, so they can make the mouths move perfectly without putting in a feature like this. The mouth syncin is definately not perfect in hl2 as well.

Yeah it's absolutely great for modders as they don't really need to do anything except record a .wav. And wouldn't you agree it's also much easier to translate the game to any language now?

I understand iD did not have such a long developemnt cycle for Doom 3 so they couldn't implement that. But Doom 3 is not very mod oriented so it doesn't really matter I guess.

 

[Lifthz]

Please, Id just didn't think of doing that specifically...

 

[Guest]

grass could be "there" its just not really necisary in the gameplay... for lots of foliage thats really there you HAVE to see the new mgs: 3 snake eater trailer at the official site http://www.konamijpn.com/products/mgs3/english/movie_index.html

 

[LoneDeranger]

Originally posted by Lifthz
Please, Id just didn't think of doing that specifically...

If they had time and money they would probably implement it or something similar.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by alb1221
grass could be "there" its just not really necisary in the gameplay... for lots of foliage thats really there you HAVE to see the new mgs: 3 snake eater trailer at the official site http://www.konamijpn.com/products/mgs3/english/movie_index.html

Many things are not necessary for gameplay... that has nothing to do with wanting to have more details in games though. Gameplay isn't the only important thing in games, though it is the priority...

Originally posted by LoneDeranger
If they had time and money they would probably implement it or something similar.

Unless they never thought about doing that. Until they saw it in another game. I think Id has enough money to do it if they had thought about it.

 

[Reaper978]

There probably would be no point in doing it because npc interaction are probably not going to be what you are doing most of the time.

 

[subs]

when do u think halo2 is comming to PC?

 

[LoneDeranger]

Originally posted by Reaper978
There probably would be no point in doing it because npc interaction are probably not going to be what you are doing most of the time.

True.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by subs
when do u think halo2 is comming to PC?

Fact is, I don't. Bungie promised Halo 1 to PC, not Halo 2.

Originally posted by Reaper978
There probably would be no point in doing it because npc interaction are probably not going to be what you are doing most of the time.

Well, there is a point. If it had it, fact is, it would be better no matter how little ou do interact with NPCs instead of shooting their guts out.

 

[Reaper978]

No there isnt one, I would prefer hand made animated faces than ones generated from a wav file. Especially if modding capability is not high up on Id's list.

 

[Guest]

All right , here is the rank for PC fps games:

Before playing all these games
1.Half Life2
2.Doom3
3.Far cry
4.Deus Ex2
5.Stalker
6............
7............
8............
9............
10.Duke Nukem Forever

After playing all these games
1.Half Life2
2.Doom3
3.Vampire masquerade
4.Far cry
5.Stalker
5.Duke Nukem Forever
6.Deus Ex2
7............
8............
9............
10...........

In fact hl2 is enough, all its mods will be better than the rest of the list. Hl2 mods has great potential to even surpass doom3 in everything, every graphical aspect. Valve didn't fully use the ability of source engine to make hl2, cuz of too many low end computer users out there. See what the mod community had done with the hl1 engine. see how many time mods looks better than hl.

 

[Lifthz]

meh, whatever. I already told you about the muscles thing... but, suit yourself. Really doesn't matter that much.

 

[Guest]

But Doom 3 is not very mod oriented so it doesn't really matter I guess.

Now why would you say something like that? iD has put forward a great deal of effort into making it mod freindly. Infact i enjoy making maps for doom3, with compile times being just a matter of seconds its fun because its not tedious to make changea and recompile. And you have a window inside the editor where you can veiw your map real time as it would look in the game. Ofcourse there are other mod-freindly features but im only into the mapping/model creation side of game development so i am only focused on that aspect of modding.

The only difficult thing about modding in Doom3 is that content creation takes longer/more skill to look up to par with what iD is pumping out. You could make normal maps in photoshop, but to have them really look right you need to create a highres model and generate a map from it. But this isnt hard to do either with tools like ORB. Its a breeze infact.

 

[Lifthz]

Originally posted by gamevoodoo
All right , here is the rank for PC fps games:

Before playing all these games
1.Half Life2
2.Doom3
3.Far cry
4.Deus Ex2
5.Stalker
6............
7............
8............
9............
10.Duke Nukem Forever

After playing all these games
1.Half Life2
2.Doom3
3.Vampire masquerade
4.Far cry
5.Stalker
5.Duke Nukem Forever
6.Deus Ex2
7............
8............
9............
10...........

In fact hl2 is enough, all its mods will be better than the rest of the list. Hl2 mods has great potential to even surpass doom3 in everything, every graphical aspect. Valve didn't fully use the ability of source engine to make hl2, cuz of too many low end computer users out there. See what the mod community had done with the hl1 engine. see how many time mods looks better than hl.

Amazing. :cheese: :dozey:

I missed the era where all mods became better than all games...

I also missed the day when the time portal was invented.

 

[Reaper978]

Brass monkey do you go to the doom3world site? I love that site, I am an avid mapper. The mapping tools easily surpass hammer, many times over.

 

[subs]

"All right , here is the rank for PC fps games:"

you mean your rank.

 

[Lifthz]

I don't know anything about doom 3 mod capabilities.

 

[Reaper978]

if he honestly thinks all the mods will be professional quality he is a moron. Along with everyone else who considers every mod as a new "game" :dozey:

 

[Lifthz]

His entire post was goofy.

 

[LoneDeranger]

Originally posted by Brassmonkey
Now why would you say something like that? iD has put forward a great deal of effort into making it mod freindly. Infact i enjoy making maps for doom3, with compile times being just a matter of seconds its fun because its not tedious to make changea and recompile. And you have a window inside the editor where you can veiw your map real time as it would look in the game. Ofcourse there are other mod-freindly features but im only into the mapping/model creation side of game development so i am only focused on that aspect of modding.

The only difficult thing about modding in Doom3 is that content creation takes longer/more skill to look up to par with what iD is pumping out. You could make normal maps in photoshop, but to have them really look right you need to create a highres model and generate a map from it. But this isnt hard to do either with tools like ORB. Its a breeze infact.

There is much more to making mods then just mapping. In fact, it's one of the easier parts (Heck, even I used to be a mapper when I was 14).

But the fact of the matter is that its much easier and faster to make a mod for HL2 than Doom 3. And also there is less skill required like you said. You do realize that most mod makers and college/high-school students who do not have the skills of professional video game designers. Thats why Valve went out of it's way to make HL2 mod friendly and iD just went with the standard package.

 

[subs]

actually, i have played a few Halflife1 mods that have been better than "real" games.

I really doubt any hl2 mod will own deusex2/vampires tho.

 

[Guest]

yea i visit doom3world quite often, but im not registered there. Never had a problem with mapping that i either didnt figure it out on my own or figure it out by reading other peoples threads. Mapping in doom3 is a blast though.

 

[Ahnteis]

Doom3: Awesome lighting model. Creatures appear to be unfortunately low polygon - probably hardware limitations due to the huge amount of rendering time going into the lighting. (Including normal mapping, etc.) Look at some of the screenshots and notice the sharp corners on the models. Everything in the model is nice and smooth, but the perimiter is very blockly. However, the atmosphere will probably make it worth buying for me just so I can scare myself silly late some night with a nice sound system and a total dark room -- except for a very large screen showing big ugly beasties crawling, jumping, creeping toward me. [shudder] The technology is absolutely phenomenal. I doubt the story will be memorable, but if the gameplay provides the tension I believe it will, it won't matter much.

HL2. Duh. I'll be buying it asap. HL has been the BEST $40 I ever spent as far as computer games go. Only Total Annihilation held my attention anywhere NEAR as long. If the SP game doesn't grab your fancy, it's worth it for the mods alone. HL also has one of the best sound components of any game released in the last 5 years. HL2 will carry on that legacy I'm sure. And of course, HL has just about the right level of story for me. It gives me something to ENTERTAIN me without trying to be some deep-thoughts-by-valve game. (It's a game. If I want deep thoughts I'll get a book!)

Halo2. Well, if it's as good as Halo was supposed to be before it became X-Box only then I'll be glad to play it. My roommate has an xbox and I think he's going to buy it. Not really high on the interest list though.

Deus Ex 2. Sort of the HL+Theif game. I really enjoyed the original except for the stupid chinatown level. Looking forward to it although I can wait a while for it.

Serious Sam 2 (don't know official name). Both Serious Sam episodes were absolutely perfect. Fast insane arcade-style action with more enemies then you could throw a.. well, a lot of firepower at. Coop (network and splitscreen) and deathmatch play. Network code needed some help but all-in-all absolutely brilliant and a nice change from the offerings of the time.

Stalker - On the "keep an eye on" list, but nowhere near the top. Reminds me too much of games that tried to do too much, were delayed forever, and when they finally came out failed to wow anyone. We'll see.

There are other games too watch out for, but I only have so much attention and time to lend to games.

 

[Reaper978]

Valve made it mod friendly cause they knew everybody was gonna mod for it, and if they didnt people would be pissed.

 

[Lifthz]

I don't think any mod will own any well done RPG games. That's insane.

 

[LoneDeranger]

As a general rule, Games > Mods. Of course there are exceptions (CS, TFC, etc.). But why are we even discussing this here?

 

[Reaper978]

mappin in doom 3 is quite a good experience, the compiler takes only about 10 minutes for even the most complicated of maps, and for small ones all of 10 seconds. And this compile time is fully compiling it with release quality. Its awsome that the editor is built into the game, if that isnt mod friendly I dont know what is. It can also render the ambient sounds and lighting just the way it would look in game so you dont have to do annoying tweaking. This is what really makes the doom 3 engine ground breaking.

 

[Guest]

hey brassmonkey, glad to see u come back, i thought u were banned. Doom3 has good grahics, no doubt, but hl2 is not so bad. Besides, gameplay is the most important thing. See unreal2 has 10x better graphics than hl, but it just didn't last me, cuz it doesn't have mp and the singleplay is not that special.

 

[subs]

lets end with the ENGINE discussions it gets us no were. Lets talk pure gameplay!

 

[Ahnteis]

Originally posted by Reaper978
mappin in doom 3 is quite a good experience, the compiler takes only about 10 minutes for even the most complicated of maps, and for small ones all of 10 seconds. And this compile time is fully compiling it with release quality. Its awsome that the editor is built into the game, if that isnt mod friendly I dont know what is. It can also render the ambient sounds and lighting just the way it would look in game so you dont have to do annoying tweaking. This is what really makes the doom 3 engine ground breaking.

[chuckle] Guess why it's so fast. All lighting is dynamic. You make a map and it's made. There really isn't much to add to it after that.

That however isn't MOD friendly, it's MAPPING friendly.

And it's not what makes D3 ground breaking. What makes D3 ground breaking is a real-time unified (dynamic) lighting system with all the bells and whistles.

 

[Guest]

There is much more to making mods then just mapping

Obviously, which is why i included "Ofcourse there are other mod-freindly features but im only into the mapping/model creation side of game development so i am only focused on that aspect of modding."

But the fact of the matter is that its much easier and faster to make a mod for HL2 than Doom 3.

I was unaware that was the fact of the matter. It depends on the mod more than the engine, and also who happens to be making the mod. It might be faster in most cases in hl2 due to the fact that making textures takes longer IF you want to include normal maps generated fomr highres models. But for moddelers liek me its more fun to mod for doom3 because you get to make in-game models that look as good as 1million poly models. There really is no limit to how detailed a model can be in-game.

And also there is less skill required like you said

In general yea, but most people who can model lowpoly models for hl2 can also add some extra detail to that low poly model and subdevide it, tweak a bit more, and you have a good model to geenrate a normal map from.

You do realize that most mod makers and college/high-school students who do not have the skills of professional video game designers.

Which is why the majority mods are lame or suck. It also means that amateur modders will stick to "easier" engines(source) and more skilled will accept the challenges inherit in modding for Doom3 to reap the benefits inherit in modding for doom3. More experienced people modding for Doom3 = higher quality mods for Doom3. Either way, 90% of the mods will be amateurish in both games.

Thats why Valve went out of it's way to make HL2 mod friendly and iD just went with the standard package.

More foolishness. To get superior visuals, like those found in Doom3, you must create superior content. This is inherit in the Doom3 engine. That does not mean its thuper duper hard to mod, or that iD jewed the mod community. Id has always makes mod-freindly engines.

 

[Tropics]

Originally posted by Ahnteis
Serious Sam 2 (don't know official name). Both Serious Sam episodes were absolutely perfect. Fast insane arcade-style action with more enemies then you could throw a.. well, a lot of firepower at. Coop (network and splitscreen) and deathmatch play. Network code needed some help but all-in-all absolutely brilliant and a nice change from the offerings of the time.

yep. for those of us confused now: serious sam first encounter and serious sam second encounter count as serious sam 1, whereas serious sam 2 is currently in development and may be coming next year. but maybe not ... however, serious sam is great for its coop mode - and its price. i am still playing serious sam 1 sometimes, 20€ for months of entertainment. that's how i like it.

 

[Reaper978]

Originally posted by Ahnteis
[chuckle] Guess why it's so fast. All lighting is dynamic. You make a map and it's made. There really isn't much to add to it after that.

That however isn't MOD friendly, it's MAPPING friendly.

And it's not what makes D3 ground breaking. What makes D3 ground breaking is a real-time unified (dynamic) lighting system with all the bells and whistles.

Tell me a game that can do this. I usually class games that have incredible advantages over other games as groundbreaking. I know why the compile times are so short because the lighting is done in real time instead of precalculating the lights and where they will hit, where shadows will appear etc etc. Doom 3 renders all that real time. People seem to think only the graphics are what makes it groundbreaking, but its these features as well. Nothing comes close.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Reaper978
if he honestly thinks all the mods will be professional quality he is a moron. :dozey:

Who are u talking about? all the mods?(are u ****ing insane? There are like tons of mods out there, hl people will only keep and play the best of them.

 

[LoneDeranger]

iD's intention is to license the engine. They are ambivalent towards modders.

 

[Guest]

iD's intention is to license the engine. They are ambivalent towards modders.

ROFL oh your one of those.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Brassmonkey

In general yea, but most people who can model lowpoly models for hl2...

It also means that amateur modders will stick to "easier" engines(source) and more skilled will accept the challenges inherit in modding for Doom3 to reap the benefits inherit in modding for doom3.

Have you ever seen a lowpoly model for hl2 that is done by amateur? Is there any amateur out there is modelling for hl2 right now? Say whatever you want to make source engine and the hl community to feel inferior. However, mabye part of what you said is right. That's why more people are driving Toyota than Ferrari which make Toyota a greater company than Ferrari.

 

[Reaper978]

Gamevoodoo, the reason I said that is because people seem to think every mod is a professional quality game, even tho they wont be. You can easily see the hl roots in almost any hl mod there is. Most of these mods will be multiplayer only, something I would like to see different with doom 3, and I will probably see alot more sp mods for doom 3 than for hl2, mainly because sp mods take alot more skill and a devoted team, something I can only see alot of in doom 3 modding, as valve made hl2 (from what I can see) easy as pie to mod.