Half-life 2 Physics comparisons.

[PvtRyan]

The only reason why the cloth and water physics looked good in that demo is because it has HUGE amounts of triangles, and there's nothing special about that.
It works in a small demo in a simpel scene, but in a full game, you don't have polygons to spare.

What the demo shows aren't fluid dynamics, if you make a hole, water won't flow in it. It's just a simpel plane with massive tesselation. It would be a WASTE of resources to implement it in HL2. From the triangles in that plane, you can add 10 vehicles or 50 buildings.

 

[Sparta]

I didn't why you guys are upset about HL2 not having water physics like that. IT LOOKS LIKE A BIG PILE OF GOO!!!

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Well then , goo physics!

 

[The_Don]

Perhaps this is just me coming from a developers programming perspective, but that demo was decent at best.

It's good to hear that, because that means there's better available. Do you have any examples of demos with superior technologies? Or at least pre-rendered videos. I'm enjoying seeing how this is progressing.

 

[Burn]

I'd never seen any demo like this before, wow, I think the most impressive one is the piston demo, its just really impressive how it works.

And the friction demo too, I remember "old" way ragdolls worked, in that they bug to no end when touching each other, but this demo shows that they dont do that now.

edit: Box stack too everything is so real. On Box stack you can see how you could make a realistic brick wall, use the RMB to kind of "punch" the wall, this could be like rocket fire or something.

 

[The Dark Elf]

The fun bit with physics in HL2 will be how you use it. Things Valve probably wouldn't have planned for. Say instead of running through a load of zombies blasting with your shotgun, you setup your own trap, balance a load of heavy objects then at the right moment trigger them say by shooting out a piece and have them fall killing the zombies. Or just blocking a way through and giving yourself more time. Maybe picking up pieces of the scenary and using them as shields to get past difficult area's. Lots of things which don't come across as so obvious. Imaginative people are going to have way more fun with HL2 I think

 

[Rupertvdb]

That's what'll make it fun, changing the classic fps thinking from blasting enemies and pressing buttons to considering exactly how the environment is going to affect the way you deal with given situations.

 

[Brian Damage]

I bet there'll be a lot of situations where you can hear a bunch of enemies around the corner, or you're higher up than they are (Like in Traptown).

I'm just going to back off and try and set up something fun...

 

[HybridM]

Oh yeah, AWESOME water surface... Refer to the attached pic. This happened without me touching anything.

 

[Rupertvdb]

i think that's one thing that lets it down, the water looks nice when it's going well but interaction with it or just random nothingness can trigger it looking terrible.

 

[HybridM]

I have seen Havok do better water surfaces.

 

[Burn]

I moved one more box and fell over ;(

 

[Rupertvdb]

that's amazing! I lacked patience so just smashed them to bits.

 

[Cybernoid]

Well, i'm sure we all played with that AWESOME physics demo in the other thread... but we all know that that isn't havok, and definately not valve's edited version of Havok. What do you guys think the physics of half-life 2 will be like compared to that demo? Think it will be remarkably similiar in alot of respects, poorer or better in some other areas? I'm falling in love with that demo, and I don't think I could ever get tired of physics in a game... so if half-life 2 has it incorporated as well as we're led to believe, I think this will be a remarkable game of course, just from the physics alone.

*NO BETA SPOILERS!*

The physics were made with extremely simplified objects with little or no animation, so it wasn't that impressive. They should do the same physics with HL2's level of detail and complexity. But in general, HL2 has mostly the same level of physics modelling.

 

[RogueShadow]

The physics were made with extremely simplified objects with little or no animation, so it wasn't that impressive. They should do the same physics with HL2's level of detail and complexity. But in general, HL2 has mostly the same level of physics modelling.

.. I doubt that really has a lot of bearing on the physics..

Some of the demo's were a litte buggy in area's though.

 

[Cybernoid]

.. I doubt that really has a lot of bearing on the physics..

Some of the demo's were a litte buggy in area's though.

I'm not an expert, but it seems reasonable that it would have an effect on physics.

 

[Burn]

Looking forward too HL2 abit more now I know abit more on how it will be. Even if the cloth and water is not as good as that demo, dont really matter.

 

[James Isaac]

Hey, in 3D Studio Max, there is this physics engine called "Reactor" made with Havok. I tried that out a while ago, and it also simulated water effects, cloth effects, and all the other stuff. That was just as good

 

[Tiddalick]

I think the Physics in HL2 will be just fine.
Games = Need good Gameplay.
I don't using CPU cycles to work out how cloth is ruffled due to wind, pressure etc is useful for the Game, ie no effect on the fun.

As long as people don't start getting super computers in their home we will NEVER see 'true' physical simulations, just (hopefully) good approximations. These formulas work to give approximate calculations to how the object will react (ie throw in some spin and make it fly over to a sirection), by making assumptions to ensure that they can be calculated in real time they will never be 'perfect' (not that perfection is possible anyway).

 

[Cybernoid]

I'm sure accurate physics are possible since we can computer simulate a nuclear explosion...

 

[ferd]

I'd like to stress the fact, that this physics library is not better then the Havok library in any way, it's almost the same.
I've seen Havok do all this to (except for the cloth, but I know Havok is capable of doing it to) and let me remind you all, that the water is NOT real time calculated. The water in this demo uses the exact same technology and isn't even as good as in Havok.

Havok wins.

 

[ferd]

I'm sure accurate physics are possible since we can computer simulate a nuclear explosion...

It's a lot easier to simulate an explosion like that.
There are formula's to calculate such things without a computer.
It's way easier then simulating most of the things you see in this demo.

 

[Tiddalick]

I'm sure accurate physics are possible since we can computer simulate a nuclear explosion...

Not really...
To simulate something like that requires Grunt, Grunt and Grunt! A lot of assumptions on behalf of those in charge of the simulation (wind speed, Neutron flux at the core, temperature, number of particles to track, etc). The maths behind such things is more 'simple' then you think, there is no magical formula for such things. When simulating you need to decide most importantly the detail of the model. If you want to track 100 particles as they zoom off into space and their effects on the surrounding gases and air pressure etc...or if you want to track 10000000. Obviously the greater you track, the greater the model for accuracy and prediction (assuming you know more or less what to expect). Games like half-life will only use the minimum detail required to preform well and act more or less as expected.

For example...
When working out the treatment of patients of radiotherapy in radiation treatments for cancer. The Current and Best Models available to Physicists track each photon (or electron depending on the treatment) ONE AT A TIME. To do this they have to know how the photons act in matter such as lung, bone etc to most accuratly map (based on probabilitys) where to beam the treatment for.
A. Optimum usage of the beam (as little as time possible under it)
B. Strength of the beam
C. How it could effect neighbouring tissues, etc

Such a model as this is quite good at predicting just how the treatment will go, but it requires the Full attention of the computers they use to calculate this.
Obviously we can't model one bullet at a time, and its impact on the surrounding tissue for blood spirts and whatnot, it just couldn't be done in real time (at least not yet )

The computers I saw used were special P4's and there were like 4 of them in the machine and it took it about 1 minute to map out about 100 million interactions. This was at the Mater Hospital Newcastle Australia.

 

[Rupertvdb]

quality! I just want to make sure when i bow stuff up realistic bits fly everyowhere..and to be sure the manipulator looks cool.

 

[Cybernoid]

Not really...
To simulate something like that requires Grunt, Grunt and Grunt! A lot of assumptions on behalf of those in charge of the simulation (wind speed, Neutron flux at the core, temperature, number of particles to track, etc). The maths behind such things is more 'simple' then you think, there is no magical formula for such things. When simulating you need to decide most importantly the detail of the model. If you want to track 100 particles as they zoom off into space and their effects on the surrounding gases and air pressure etc...or if you want to track 10000000. Obviously the greater you track, the greater the model for accuracy and prediction (assuming you know more or less what to expect). Games like half-life will only use the minimum detail required to preform well and act more or less as expected.

I heard that they've simulated a nuclear explosion. That's all I know.

The computers I saw used were special P4's and there were like 4 of them in the machine and it took it about 1 minute to map out about 100 million interactions. This was at the Mater Hospital Newcastle Australia.

I'm afraid that a few Pentium 4s aren't exactly top of the line in supercomputing. The NEC Earth Simulator is.

 

[Tiddalick]

I heard that they've simulated a nuclear explosion. That's all I know.



I'm afraid that a few Pentium 4s aren't exactly top of the line in supercomputing. The NEC Earth Simulator is.

Well yes...of course
But for a small hospital in Australia, thats all we can afford!
For the purposes it suffices. It was meant to illistrate my point, thats all.

That super computer would be the kind of thing they would simulate Nuclear explosions or the weather...complex systems.
But like I said, the maths involved isn't to complex, just a lot, a WHOLE LOT of repeated calculations.

We don't have super computers in our computers, so the 'its good enough' approach is enough for now. Physics in games will REALLY start to get good if they do calculations on each bullet etc, but then they would need to investigate how bullets penetrate flesh etc, probably mean speaking to the folks in the military

 

[Voldos]

is there another link to the download?
i tried the one on the first page and it dont work >_<
looked on google aswlel but couldnt find anything

 

[soxx]

yeah, the site is down......i think they reached their bandwidth limit!!

 

[Voldos]

hmm, i'll try again wen i get back from work l8er. seems every site i try and visit keep blowing up

 

[kaf11]

this demo is cool, but i think half-life 2 still wins.

 

[soxx]

meqon site works now...

 

[Synthos]

just a note, that water simulation is pretty bad... and, notice how all their water "simulation" doesn't include flowing water, but standing pools.

 

[Rupertvdb]

try throwing somehting into the pool, you'll like it even less.

 

[dino_21]

doesnt that suck.....

 

[ferd]

The amount of ridicule and false reply's in this thread is unbelievable.

 

[NeLi]

The amount of ridicule and false reply's in this thread is unbelievable.

No it's not. :monkee:

 

[noobman5000]

well you see...the physics in HL2 acutally ARE havok. the havok physics engine was used as a base for the physics in source. with each material in the source engine, havok's data input variables and pre-set physics were set, with the addition of weight, buoyancy, resilliency, ect. then they added the appropriate texture, shader info, decal info, ect.

so if you're making a mod in HL2, and you want bricks... you create an object, select a meterial, and ALL the information listed above is atuomatically calculated for you. of course the way the objects bounce around in the world during actual gameplay is havok. so are the ragdoll effects. go to havok's site, and watch the fallguy demo. good stuff lol.


:afro:

 

[Burn]

well you see...the physics in HL2 acutally ARE havok. the havok physics engine was used as a base for the physics in source. with each material in the source engine, havok's data input variables and pre-set physics were set, with the addition of weight, buoyancy, resilliency, ect. then they added the appropriate texture, shader info, decal info, ect.

so if you're making a mod in HL2, and you want bricks... you create an object, select a meterial, and ALL the information listed above is atuomatically calculated for you. of course the way the objects bounce around in the world during actual gameplay is havok. so are the ragdoll effects. go to havok's site, and watch the fallguy demo. good stuff lol.


:afro:

Its not just useing Havok, its highly modded, so for all we know it could be alot more impressive.

 

[Xenome]

In the castle 'demo' of the physics thingie certain walls have flickering textures, did anybody else notice this?

 

[Brian Damage]

Well, it's not a graphics demo...