Hamas demands return of Seville, Spain

[CptStern]

amazing how me nor Raziaar claim this childrens website will cause this, nor that this will actually happen in Spain...
All we claim is that indoctrination in general is possible and its effects are proven...

if it were at all possible I'd draw you a schematic, build you a signal fire or do freakin charades because words arent getting through to you

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

:upstare: here we go again


there's no reasoning with you people ffs ..look my parents are spaniards, my cousins are spaniards, my aunt lives in Sevilla, I think they're a far better judge than you as to the rise in muslim extremism ..and believe it or not it's JUST as prevelant as in any other country ..along with the other usual religious fanatics like Pat Robertson

..get this through your thick skulls ..this isnt going to happen ..because it ****ing ABSURD to believe a children's program has that much influence

No one is saying it's happening, and no one is saying muslim extremism is highly prevalent in Spain. People are showing this as an example of how batshit insane Hamas is to even say something like this. That's the point everyone is emphasizing- Hamas has made no change, if they publish material that continually supports a claim to all lands once held by muslims, they will never alter their charter to support the right of Israel to exist- that's the entire point of the thread.

 

[CptStern]

look I dont believe a word of it till someone translates that page from arabic ..for all you know it could be a recipe for lentil soup


regardless of what the justification is there are extremists in every countyry ..tell me do you have just as much disdain for Pat Robertson? he's called for the murder of a head of state, he routinely uses hate rhetoric to attack homosexuals, immigrants etc ...why dont you call for his arrest? why dont you try to get rid of a fanatic in your own back yard? why? cuz it doesnbt suit your political purpose ..he's one of you guys so he's without reproach, just like any other right wing looney who commits a crime, spreads hate, or invades a country

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

look I dont believe a word of it till someone translates that page from arabic ..for all you know it could be a recipe for lentil soup


regardless of what the justification is there are extremists in every countyry ..tell me do you have just as much disdain for Pat Robertson? he's called for the murder of a head of state, he routinely uses hate rhetoric to attack homosexuals, immigrants etc ...why dont you call for his arrest? why dont you try to get rid of a fanatic in your own back yard? why? cuz it doesnbt suit your political purpose ..he's one of you guys so he's without reproach, just like any other right wing looney who commits a crime, spreads hate, or invades a country

A: Because he hasn't killed anyone or directly helped with it. You cannot say the same with Hamas.
B: He isn't in control, and is recognized widely as being over the top.

If Hamas was the same as Pat Robertson, it would almost be a virtual non issue. When Pat Robertson begins supporting and funding the intentional murder of civilians, I call for an immediate strike on him, take him out ASAP when that happens.

 

[Lemonking]

Stern why are you trying 2 play thos down?

 

[CptStern]

A: Because he hasn't killed anyone or directly helped with it. You cannot say the same with Hamas.

so the same people who strapped a bomb to themselves and blew themselves and others into oblivion is somehow the same as the author of children's stories?

B: He isn't in control, and is recognized widely as being over the top.

yet the author of the children's stories is?

If Hamas was the same as Pat Robertson, it would almost be a virtual non issue. When Pat Robertson begins supporting and funding the intentional murder of civilians, I call for an immediate strike on him, take him out ASAP when that happens.

if that logic was to be applied to your country there'd be nukes flying over washington


again Hamas is not the same as this children's website ..try to stay on topic



spicy tuna: read the thread start to finish and get back to me

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

so the same people who strapped a bomb to themselves and blew themselves and others into oblivion is somehow the same as the author of children's stories?



yet the author of the children's stories is?



if that logic was to be applied to your country there'd be nukes flying over washington


again Hamas is not the same as this children's website ..try to stay on topic

You notice the publication is funded by Hamas which no doubt has creative control. This is the type of mentality that is indoctrinated into the children there not only in publications like these but textbooks, school studies, and everyday life.. To deny it is simply to be blind to the huge problem.

 

[CptStern]

hamas is a political party ..it's the same thing as the republlicans supporting the National Endowment for Democracy which directly bankrolls coups in latin america .."To deny it is simply to be blind to the huge problem"


and again you're saying that this indoctrination will lead to suicide bombers in the future when it's absolutely absurd to believe a chldren's show has that much influence

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

hamas is a political party ..it's the same thing as the republlicans supporting the National Endowment for Democracy which directly bankrolls coups in latin america .."To deny it is simply to be blind to the huge problem"


and again you're saying that this indoctrination will lead to suicide bombers in the future when it's absolutely absurd to believe a chldren's show has that much influence

It's not just in a children's show, this sort of drivel is present in Palestinian schools and is taught daily.

Hamas 'political' wing and military wing are one and the same.

 

[CptStern]

It's not just in a children's show, this sort of drivel is present in Palestinian schools and is taught daily.

Hamas 'political' wing and military wing are one and the same.

stay on topic we're talking about Seville NOT palestine

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

sure they are ...anyways stay on topic we're talking about Seville NOT palestine

We have been talking about Palestine the whole time- Seville is what the Hamas publication regarded, but the issue was Hamas itself, no one claimed that there would be any actual attempt to take Seville. It's the rhetoric. If you'll check the article (even if you hate the source) it's about whaddya know- the Palestinian publication

 

[CptStern]

then why bring seville into it in the first place? what does a children's story have to do with spain and Hamas? where is the co-relation ...the obvious answer is that this thread is suggesting that muslim youth will one day conspire against spaniards and attempt to take back their land ...all on the say so of cartoon on the internet


why else would I spend 9 pages arguing this point if I didnt think the argument behind this thread was complete nonsense?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

then why bring seville into it in the first place? what does a children's story have to do with spain and Hamas? where is the co-relation ...the obvious answer is that this thread is suggesting that muslim youth will one day conspire against spaniards and attempt to take back their land ...all on the say so of cartoon on the internet


why else would I spend 9 pages arguing this point if I didnt think the argument behind this thread was complete nonsense?

How do you miss the entire point? It is about highlighting that Hamas still holds an insane view. The probability of their wants coming true are next to zilch, but it shows they will never recognize the Israeli state's right to exist.

It also highlights the prejudice in Palestinian children's learning- via the local media and hugely in school.

Main Points:

The textbooks used in the Palestinian Authority school system, from elementary through high school, are replete with strong expressions of hatred towards Israel, negation of its right to exist and praise for the struggle against it, as well as antisemitic expressions against the Jews.


In these textbooks, Israel is described as "a country of gangs, born in crime." The Jews are arrogant and sly traitors, and Zionism is a racist movement and a "germ."


From this point of view, the Oslo Accords are described as "a move to get the Palestine Liberation Army into the territories," and support for jihad is emphasized.


Thus, Palestinian youth are educated from birth in an atmosphere of religious and nationalist incitement, with no trace of anything positive regarding Israel, which results in a deepening of their hatred towards Israel, a fanning of the flames of violence and encouragement and justification of terrorism against the State of Israel and against Jews.




Elaboration

1. In the eight years that have elapsed since the establishment of the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian educational system has been using Jordanian and Egyptian textbooks. It is only in the past academic year that the Palestinian Ministry of Education has added textbooks to the curriculum that were specially written for the 1st and 6th grades and this year, according to reports, for the 2nd and 7th grades as well.

2. The Jordanian textbooks, intended for all students in high schools and most of the classes in the elementary schools, abound in expressions of incitement and hatred that were reintroduced when the educational system was transferred from Israeli to Palestinian responsibility. These books are indicative of the "war to the death" mentality against Israel and Zionism and everything that they represent.

3. Following are some examples of incitement, hatred towards Israel and antisemitism, according to subject:


The Jewish people - the textbooks are replete with antisemitic expressions of hatred and hostility towards the Jewish people, including references from the Koran attesting to the corrupt, dishonest character of the Jews, who are also anti-Islam. They claim that, according to the Talmud, the Jews believe that the human animal was created to serve them and that it is permitted to deceive the gentiles, who have satanic souls.


Jerusalem - Israelis covet Jerusalem above all else. They burned the Al Aksa mosque in 1969 as part of the Zionist plan to take control of Haram al-Sharif (the Temple Mount) and to destroy the Muslim buildings there, in order to build their Temple. It is incumbent on the Arab army to liberate the mosques from the thieving conqueror.


Zionism - Zionism is a threat to the Arabs, and all Arabs are obligated to fight it; the Zionist germ must be expunged from the Arab nation. Teachers’ guides for the 10th and 12th grades explain that Zionism is a racist movement that aspires to Judaize Palestine by expelling its Arab residents. Furthermore, Zionist ideology is more racist, extremist and aggressive than other ideologies (of the 20th century) and established a Jewish political entity in Palestine that threatens the security of the Arab homeland.


Jihad - already in the 2nd grade, Palestinian pupils learn that Jordanian young men are eager to sacrifice their lives for the jihad, to defend the Arab character of Palestine. Another textbook states that the Arabs and the Muslims will fight the Jews who evicted them from their homes. In the 8th grade, the students learn that the usurpers have crossed all boundaries and therefore the time has come for jihad, to unsheathe the sharp sword.

The Iz a-Din al-Kassam receives much praise in descriptions of Palestinian bravery, and the battle of Karama is described as resulting from the Zionist lust for expansion. Stone-throwers are also glorified in these books.


Israel - The name "Israel" does not appear on the maps, and Jewish cities are not mentioned. Tel Aviv is called "Jaffa." In the 5th grade, discussion is devoted to the question: Why must we fight the Jews and expel them from our land? In the 7th grade, the children learn that 1948 was the year of "the Great Crime," when "the gang state" was established by seizing control of cities and villages and mistreating the residents.


The "Right of Return" - Eighth-graders are taught a song about Jaffa, promising to return from the diaspora and the prisons. An 8th grade history textbook explains that Israel’s close ties with imperialism made its establishment possible.

4. Although there is a certain moderation of the militant terminology in the textbooks edited by the PA, they contain no recognition of Israel. Expressions of an anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish character are still to be found in them, although in an ambiguous and insinuated way.

5. Some of the negative elements found in the textbooks are described below:

No recognition of Israel - Israel is not mentioned as a state, but rather in the context of issues such as the settlements and use of natural resources, or wars and investigations. The borders of the state are not delineated and its name does not appear on maps, which bear the name "Palestine". Some maps contain the names of cities that existed before the establishment of the state; others show Jewish settlements only in the territories, but do not reflect the true situation there.

The Palestinian ambition to rule over all of the Land of Israel - A photograph of the city of Jaffa identifies it as a Palestinian city, and a picture of the Al-Jazzar mosque in Akko bears the caption: "Palestine is Our Land." Students are expected to aspire to the unification of Palestine and to understand that the Palestinians, descendants of the Canaanites, have first rights to the land.

The struggle against Israel - the "Right Of Return" - The textbooks state that the refugee camps are temporary quarters, until the residents return to the places that they were forced to abandon. One book contains a song praising Iz a-Din al-Kassam as the heroic figure of the struggle. Jihad is taught as a value for the citizen who desires to defend his homeland. Using any and all available means is presented as a religious imperative, and anyone killed in the course of defending his homeland becomes a "shaheed" (martyr) - all this is included in a textbook for the 6th grade.

The Oslo Accords - The accords are described as a move that enabled the Palestinian liberation army to entrench itself in the territories. Principles such as normalization and coexistence are, of course, not even mentioned.

6. In the eight years since the signing of the Oslo Accords, another generation of pupils has been educated to believe that the establishment of the State of Israel was "the Big Crime" and that the Palestinians, together with the Arab and Muslim states, must fight it to "the death."

7. The pace at which the PA is working to change the content of the textbooks is slow and does not reveal much enthusiasm, to say the least, towards fulfilling the explicit Palestinian commitment "to educate pupils in the spirit of the peace agreement." That the PA is dealing with this subject unwillingly, under Israeli and international pressure, is obvious from the meagerness of the results.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ADDENDUM
I. Name of book:
Al-Mutalaa Wa-Al-Nussous Al-Adabia, for the 8th grade
Page 117:

Everything previously written leads to the conclusion that Zionism constitutes a threat to all Arabs and must be fought by each and every Arab.

Zionism is poised to take over the rest of Jerusalem and its holy sites and, thereafter, to continue, step by step, to complete its control of Palestine. In the third stage, it will invade Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and the rest of the Arab states. This will happen unless the Arabs take serious steps to exterminate the Zionist germ and thrust this evil out of the Arab homeland. If the Arabs ignore the danger that threatens them with destruction and avoid taking the necessary action, they will share the same fate as that of their Palestinian brothers.
II. Name of book:
Al-Mutalaa Wa-Al-Nussous Al-Adabia for the 8th grade

Page 120:

My brother, the oppressor has crossed the line and the time has come for jihad and martyrdom.
III. Name of book:
Lughatuna Al-Arabia, for the 7th grade

Part 2, page 17:

The year 1948 is known as the year of the "Great Crime", when the "gang state" was established by means of invasion and conquest of towns and villages and abuse of their residents. Examples of this are the Dir Yassin massacre, the Kibya massacre, the Kafr Kassem massacre and others.

 

[CptStern]

dear lord ....WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE TOPIC?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

dear lord ....WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE TOPIC?

Are you kidding me? Are you even serious? Please tell me you read the article.

The article isn't about Seville, the article is about Al Fateh (seville was within what Al Fateh talked, but the Spain Herald article is not ABOUT it).

It's quite clear the reason Raziaar posted this topic was to highlight the fact that Hamas is still publishing views like this and indoctrinating children- a point that really needs it and a great thread. Ask him yourself. Why the thread would be about Seville specifically or how anyone could think it was someone thinking they would attack Seville is beyong me- it's clear what the intention was.

 

[CptStern]

sigh ......

palestine was bandied about hundreds of times in this thread in direct comparison to seville: If hama's indoctrination of palestinian youth bred suicide bombers, it stands to reason that the same indoctrination will cause muslim spaniards to do the same to reclaim their homeland ..or so you'd have us believe

 

[Raziaar]

I think the whole point flies below your radar. You're not putting two and two together in the situation, and seem to be in complete denial that people can be brainwashed from a young age... that somehow kids are unimpressionable.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

sigh ......

palestine was bandied about hundreds of times in this thread in direct comparison to seville: If hama's indoctrination of palestinian youth bred suicide bombers, it stands to reason that the same indoctrination will cause muslim spaniards to do the same to reclaim their homeland ..or so you'd have us believe

One document is not going to accomplish that (Al Fateh is directed towards Palestinian youth anyway, not Spaniards), a sustained indoctrination from a young age through school, media, studies, etc WILL. That is the point. Al Fateh just raised eyebrows and highlighted the issue of indoctrinating youth in Palestine.

I don't know HOW you thought anyone was saying that there would be violence in Spain or Spaniard Muslims would be influenced by this. No one has even argued that- everyone has been decrying the Palestinian use of youth education/media in this way.

 

[Ome_Vince]

if it were at all possible I'd draw you a schematic, build you a signal fire or do freakin charades because words arent getting through to you

please do because im scratching my head as to where and how in the name of Mohammed's juicy bum, :smoking: you came with the kids website and spain while my new comment was even more specifically :

Indoctrinating kids to blow themselves up in a later stage of life is possible and proven time and time again. Its even fun to see how certain grown-ups can get indoctrinated and do the same.

Aimed directly at the "indoctrinating in general", not "this website is indoctrinating or causing another israel".

Please "allmighty" Stern, explain to me where you see/come up with Spain and the kids website in that new post of mine... :stare:

Im glad more people see/experience how you stern assume things when nobody is mentioning spain + the website. Its about indoctrinating kids in general....

 

[Raziaar]

look I dont believe a word of it till someone translates that page from arabic ..for all you know it could be a recipe for lentil soup

See, the problem is you simply choose not to believe its true. Since you don't believe it, you somehow lack the effort to go out and translate it. Why would the website be lying about the content on the page when people can simply use a translator to figure out what it really means? I would think even if they are biased, they have MUCH more intelligence than to post about an article that says something completely different than what they say. Credibility goes instantly down the drain without any effort.

 

[Yuri]

The IRA targeted innocent civilians to get their point across. But in the eyes of the Americans they're "freedom fighters" not the terrorists they clearly are.

That's funny, buddy, because I don't remember ever in my life supporting the IRA. So thanks for putting opinions in my mouth that are not mine.